[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by the_exile [/i]
[B]Name one person you personally know who's made his dreams a reality. Now name one person you know who went to heaven. I don't mean someone who led a good life--I mean you [i]know[/i], no faith involved, that they went. You can't. That's the difference between the two types of 'delusions.' Secular people have hopes and dreams as well. Just because I believe we are without purpose in the larger sense, does not mean I don't believe I can create my own purpose. I believe that what I do will shape the rest of existence in profound yet unmeasurably small ways. By writing, I will change the viewpoints of my readers every so subtly, and they will ass that on to their children for generations and generations. If I have children, those children will affect the world physically and mentally simply be existing, and having opinions, conversations, and arguments. If I don't, I still change the world, by [i]not[/i] changing it. Unfortunately, I don't know where I'm going here. :p
[/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JackN [/i]
[B]eh, I disagree...
You might claim that I am biased when refering to my own pets, but I see a profound ability to find ways to communicate their feelings and what not...
Including love. My dog doesn't howl or lick my face when I come home for the express purpose of being hungry, my wife has fed him during the day. He is glad to see me, he has the feeling of belonging, he expresses love in the way he has learned how.
We both have come to a mid-language so to speak that can express a lot of things. I have had to learn his ques as much as he has had to learn mine.
True... that in nature he would have grown up much different due to the requirements of the wild, but my point all along is that he and many other kinds of animals have the capacity.
I would also add that animals will often mourn the loss of their partners.
They may not be civilized by any of our definitions, but I don't think, feel, or believe that Humans have the corner on the market either.
;) [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree with that. Animals certainly have feelings as well. They certainly can feel affection to each other, so why couldn't they feel the same with humans? I believe they do.
Im saying in the way you see things its nothing more than a delusion, and you never responded to my claim that without those delusions human beings would not be what they are.
I have already told you what it is I think proves to some degree that their is a force or will to existence. In the end only you can decide to believe or not believe, it is not something you can totaly prove or disprove unless you can somehow look at all of existence at one time and actualy understand it all. Untill that day we will always be having this debate.
So why do I believe? If I could answer that to your satisfaction then you would have to believe in God too, but I can't because its not some logical rational thing. Its just a sense that I have about existence, and its something that has touched my life in ways you couldn't really understand. Its not about evidence its about faith.
Its the difference between looking at the odds, and looking at hope.
Isn't the cat thing based on the assumption that you don't know if the cat is in the box anymore if you put one in the box and close it? Or something like that. Can't remember it exactly.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TheEXone [/i]
[B]Im saying in the way you see things its nothing more than a delusion, and you never responded to my claim that without those delusions human beings would not be what they are.
I have already told you what it is I think proves to some degree that their is a force or will to existence. In the end only you can decide to believe or not believe, it is not something you can totaly prove or disprove unless you can somehow look at all of existence at one time and actualy understand it all. Untill that day we will always be having this debate.
So why do I believe? If I could answer that to your satisfaction then you would have to believe in God too, but I can't because its not some logical rational thing. Its just a sense that I have about existence, and its something that has touched my life in ways you couldn't really understand. Its not about evidence its about faith.
Its the difference between looking at the odds, and looking at hope. [/B][/QUOTE]
This is where all religions fail. They can't actually prove anything. They just happily claim whatever they want as a truth and defend themselves by saying that others don't understand.
You can sense God's existence? That's nothing, I can move to other planets just by thinking of it.
It fails in your eyes because as you claim its not something you need in your life. Well I have seen it give hope to my dad when he lost both his newlyborn son, and his wife over the course of one year. I have seen it lead people from a life of drakness and dispair to optimism and hope. Its fine that you don't beleive thats your choice if you want to look at life like that, but do not fall into the same arrogance of those who use both science and religion for asumptions on the truth. People all over the world do great things because of faith, they can move planets if you will, do not think you are better than them because you think you can see how delusional they are. You are never going to change peoples minds by mocking the things they hold dear in life, you will only make them more defiant.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by the_exile [/i]
[B]I beg to differ, this question fits right with the idea of civilization. As things like love and hate begin to evolve, we get the idea that civilization should be 'civilized.' Uncivilized animals might tear one another apart for crossing over a piss-marked line, but Humans don't. We defend one another much as a herd might defend it's own, but we take it a bit further with our more complex brains, getting ideas like 'courtesy' and 'doing unto others.' [/B][/QUOTE]
actually societys do kill each other over piss-marked lines, they are called borders. And as often as we protect each other we kill each other. Even in "civilized" Europe the average murder rate is about 3 murders per 100,000 (versus the US average of 6.5 per 100,000) Frankly humans have wants, and the more wants are denyed the more likely they are to kill somebody in order to satisfy those wants.
All in all in response to these questions Ive seen alot of handwaving, and this points out something. Science can NOT answer hard moral questions, thats why we have philosophy, but philosophers have quickly realized that in order to have a cornerstone for a absolute moral philosophy (otherwise again you sink into the problem of relativism which logicaly ends up in nihilism due to the problem of arbitraryness) You end up with FAITH. That there is something special about life, that cant be defined, proven or measured, that is a standard against which behavior should be held.
Thats what Einstein was getting at in his quote, there are some sorts of reaserch which is forbiden in the social sciences, because while they may teach us alot about human behavior, their consequences on the subjects i so horrendus that it is wrong to do it, and why? because of that belief.
That and I can go all humeian skepticism on you later on tonight (when I get home, and have my books,) because Hume uses the early scientific method to show that you since you cant concretely prove ANYTHING (all you can do really is fail to falsify it) thus, nothing is every truely proven and in the end we have no knowledge, just "best guesses"
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TheEXone [/i]
[B]It fails in your eyes because as you laim its not something you need in your life.[/b][/quote]
No, it fails "in the eyes" of science like I already said earlier and science is what explores the real world and gives us answers how things truly work and are in reality, so that we wouldn't need to rely on beliefs, which are just that, beliefs, nothing more. Science's purpose is to tell us the facts, how the things really are. That's what science is about.
Religion, frankly speaking, is a way of thinking, a product of imagination, a biggest hoax ever in this world. Nothing more. And that is why you can't prove God's existence. Because it doesn't exist. It's nothing real. It's only imagination in people's minds, in other words, it's a lie and yes I really don't need a lie in my life. I don't need my whole life to be based on a one big lie. I rather suffer than live in a lie. I don't need that to survive from all the bad in my life. I survive being rational and time heals the wounds, like the old saying goes.
[quote][b]Well I have seen it give hope to my dad when he lost both his newlyborn son, and his wife over the course of one year. I have seen it lead people from a life of drakness and dispair to optimism and hope. Its fine that you don't beleive thats your choice if you want to look at life like that, but do not fall into the same arrogance of those who use both science and religion for asumptions on the truth.[/b][/quote]
But you fall on that yourself, because you keep your faith as a truth.
I keep science as a truth, because it can prove itself being right by giving me evidence. Religion can not do that. Only one can be right about things and guess which one it is? It provides the evidence, so there's no even competition.
And it's not arrogance, it's honesty. But claiming to be a truth something which you can't even prove.... now THAT is arrogant if anything and insults human intelligence and my intelligence. And that's the main reason I ever get involved in conversations about religions btw.
Btw, it's good that it gave your dad strength to handle all that, but it still doesn't make God a reality.
[quote][b]People all over the world do great things because of faith, they can move planets if you will, do not think you are better than them because you think you can see how delusional they are.[/b][/quote]
People do great things because of faith yes, but NOT because of religional faith. They do because they believe that they can do it, they might believe that it makes people's life better, they believe that it's possible and so on. And that kind of faith is based on known facts and ambitions and will to achieve something and do something good. It's got nothing to with religions and believeing in God.
[quote][b]You are never going to change peoples minds by mocking the things they hold dear in life, you will only make them more defiant. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, it's so sad that people are so selfish and stubborn that they refuse to take their heads out of that famous place and open their eyes to see the truth. It's so sad that they deny facts just because they want to.
And btw, I'm only being honest here, not mocking. I want to tell the honest truth and if in the process of doing so I happen to hurt someones feelings a little, it's unfortunate, but necessary evil, like the saying goes. If you want to be totally honest in this kind of a discussion it's impossible to complitely avoid that.
I think I'm done here now. I've said here what I have to say. It will only be repeating the same things if this discussion continues further. So at least for now I think I will not write any more replies about this subject. I'll be reading though. Maybe even reply if I see I have something new to say. Until then....
[i]"Religion is blind in front of the facts. Science can see those facts and deliver them to the people in the form of evidence. That is something concrete what religion can not do."[/i] - Me
Comments
[B]Name one person you personally know who's made his dreams a reality. Now name one person you know who went to heaven. I don't mean someone who led a good life--I mean you [i]know[/i], no faith involved, that they went. You can't. That's the difference between the two types of 'delusions.' Secular people have hopes and dreams as well. Just because I believe we are without purpose in the larger sense, does not mean I don't believe I can create my own purpose. I believe that what I do will shape the rest of existence in profound yet unmeasurably small ways. By writing, I will change the viewpoints of my readers every so subtly, and they will ass that on to their children for generations and generations. If I have children, those children will affect the world physically and mentally simply be existing, and having opinions, conversations, and arguments. If I don't, I still change the world, by [i]not[/i] changing it. Unfortunately, I don't know where I'm going here. :p
[/B][/QUOTE]
Well said and I agree with that.
- PJH
[B]eh, I disagree...
You might claim that I am biased when refering to my own pets, but I see a profound ability to find ways to communicate their feelings and what not...
Including love. My dog doesn't howl or lick my face when I come home for the express purpose of being hungry, my wife has fed him during the day. He is glad to see me, he has the feeling of belonging, he expresses love in the way he has learned how.
We both have come to a mid-language so to speak that can express a lot of things. I have had to learn his ques as much as he has had to learn mine.
True... that in nature he would have grown up much different due to the requirements of the wild, but my point all along is that he and many other kinds of animals have the capacity.
I would also add that animals will often mourn the loss of their partners.
They may not be civilized by any of our definitions, but I don't think, feel, or believe that Humans have the corner on the market either.
;) [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree with that. Animals certainly have feelings as well. They certainly can feel affection to each other, so why couldn't they feel the same with humans? I believe they do.
- PJH
I have already told you what it is I think proves to some degree that their is a force or will to existence. In the end only you can decide to believe or not believe, it is not something you can totaly prove or disprove unless you can somehow look at all of existence at one time and actualy understand it all. Untill that day we will always be having this debate.
So why do I believe? If I could answer that to your satisfaction then you would have to believe in God too, but I can't because its not some logical rational thing. Its just a sense that I have about existence, and its something that has touched my life in ways you couldn't really understand. Its not about evidence its about faith.
Its the difference between looking at the odds, and looking at hope.
[B]Ooh, Quantum Physics and Schroedinger's Cat, is that what you mean? :)
-Φ [subliminal]pets Schroedinger's cat[/subliminal] [/B][/QUOTE]
Not exactly. :)
Isn't the cat thing based on the assumption that you don't know if the cat is in the box anymore if you put one in the box and close it? Or something like that. Can't remember it exactly.
- PJH
[B]Im saying in the way you see things its nothing more than a delusion, and you never responded to my claim that without those delusions human beings would not be what they are.
I have already told you what it is I think proves to some degree that their is a force or will to existence. In the end only you can decide to believe or not believe, it is not something you can totaly prove or disprove unless you can somehow look at all of existence at one time and actualy understand it all. Untill that day we will always be having this debate.
So why do I believe? If I could answer that to your satisfaction then you would have to believe in God too, but I can't because its not some logical rational thing. Its just a sense that I have about existence, and its something that has touched my life in ways you couldn't really understand. Its not about evidence its about faith.
Its the difference between looking at the odds, and looking at hope. [/B][/QUOTE]
This is where all religions fail. They can't actually prove anything. They just happily claim whatever they want as a truth and defend themselves by saying that others don't understand.
You can sense God's existence? That's nothing, I can move to other planets just by thinking of it.
:p
- PJH
[B]I beg to differ, this question fits right with the idea of civilization. As things like love and hate begin to evolve, we get the idea that civilization should be 'civilized.' Uncivilized animals might tear one another apart for crossing over a piss-marked line, but Humans don't. We defend one another much as a herd might defend it's own, but we take it a bit further with our more complex brains, getting ideas like 'courtesy' and 'doing unto others.' [/B][/QUOTE]
actually societys do kill each other over piss-marked lines, they are called borders. And as often as we protect each other we kill each other. Even in "civilized" Europe the average murder rate is about 3 murders per 100,000 (versus the US average of 6.5 per 100,000) Frankly humans have wants, and the more wants are denyed the more likely they are to kill somebody in order to satisfy those wants.
All in all in response to these questions Ive seen alot of handwaving, and this points out something. Science can NOT answer hard moral questions, thats why we have philosophy, but philosophers have quickly realized that in order to have a cornerstone for a absolute moral philosophy (otherwise again you sink into the problem of relativism which logicaly ends up in nihilism due to the problem of arbitraryness) You end up with FAITH. That there is something special about life, that cant be defined, proven or measured, that is a standard against which behavior should be held.
Thats what Einstein was getting at in his quote, there are some sorts of reaserch which is forbiden in the social sciences, because while they may teach us alot about human behavior, their consequences on the subjects i so horrendus that it is wrong to do it, and why? because of that belief.
That and I can go all humeian skepticism on you later on tonight (when I get home, and have my books,) because Hume uses the early scientific method to show that you since you cant concretely prove ANYTHING (all you can do really is fail to falsify it) thus, nothing is every truely proven and in the end we have no knowledge, just "best guesses"
[B]It fails in your eyes because as you laim its not something you need in your life.[/b][/quote]
No, it fails "in the eyes" of science like I already said earlier and science is what explores the real world and gives us answers how things truly work and are in reality, so that we wouldn't need to rely on beliefs, which are just that, beliefs, nothing more. Science's purpose is to tell us the facts, how the things really are. That's what science is about.
Religion, frankly speaking, is a way of thinking, a product of imagination, a biggest hoax ever in this world. Nothing more. And that is why you can't prove God's existence. Because it doesn't exist. It's nothing real. It's only imagination in people's minds, in other words, it's a lie and yes I really don't need a lie in my life. I don't need my whole life to be based on a one big lie. I rather suffer than live in a lie. I don't need that to survive from all the bad in my life. I survive being rational and time heals the wounds, like the old saying goes.
[quote][b]Well I have seen it give hope to my dad when he lost both his newlyborn son, and his wife over the course of one year. I have seen it lead people from a life of drakness and dispair to optimism and hope. Its fine that you don't beleive thats your choice if you want to look at life like that, but do not fall into the same arrogance of those who use both science and religion for asumptions on the truth.[/b][/quote]
But you fall on that yourself, because you keep your faith as a truth.
I keep science as a truth, because it can prove itself being right by giving me evidence. Religion can not do that. Only one can be right about things and guess which one it is? It provides the evidence, so there's no even competition.
And it's not arrogance, it's honesty. But claiming to be a truth something which you can't even prove.... now THAT is arrogant if anything and insults human intelligence and my intelligence. And that's the main reason I ever get involved in conversations about religions btw.
Btw, it's good that it gave your dad strength to handle all that, but it still doesn't make God a reality.
[quote][b]People all over the world do great things because of faith, they can move planets if you will, do not think you are better than them because you think you can see how delusional they are.[/b][/quote]
People do great things because of faith yes, but NOT because of religional faith. They do because they believe that they can do it, they might believe that it makes people's life better, they believe that it's possible and so on. And that kind of faith is based on known facts and ambitions and will to achieve something and do something good. It's got nothing to with religions and believeing in God.
[quote][b]You are never going to change peoples minds by mocking the things they hold dear in life, you will only make them more defiant. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, it's so sad that people are so selfish and stubborn that they refuse to take their heads out of that famous place and open their eyes to see the truth. It's so sad that they deny facts just because they want to.
And btw, I'm only being honest here, not mocking. I want to tell the honest truth and if in the process of doing so I happen to hurt someones feelings a little, it's unfortunate, but necessary evil, like the saying goes. If you want to be totally honest in this kind of a discussion it's impossible to complitely avoid that.
I think I'm done here now. I've said here what I have to say. It will only be repeating the same things if this discussion continues further. So at least for now I think I will not write any more replies about this subject. I'll be reading though. Maybe even reply if I see I have something new to say. Until then....
[i]"Religion is blind in front of the facts. Science can see those facts and deliver them to the people in the form of evidence. That is something concrete what religion can not do."[/i] - Me
- PJH