[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vertigo1 [/i]
[B]Umm....so by your logic, we should thank Simmonds for being a trolling asshole? You realize how stupid that sounds.....right? [/B][/QUOTE]
If we didn't have one asshole amongst us, this place would go [url="http://campus.fortunecity.com/medicine/896/moominindex.htm"]Moomin[/url] (creator Tove Jansson forgot to draw assholes to those poor creatures and look how fat they've become). ;)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by E.T [/i]
In that case why Bush senior didn't kick out Hussein after Gulf War "episode one"?
He encouraged kurds and other Hussein's opponents to rise against him promising support but then immediately betrayed them by allowing Hussein's army to slaughter them. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, so what's your point. When did I say we should've backed off from supporting the uprising, or that everything we do is perfect?
And while we're on the subject:
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by E.T [/i]
Hell, if everyone would be unwilling to start war because people die in those world would be much better place.[/quote]
Yes, yes, in the land of perfect happy place that would be fine and dandy; but we don't live there now do we.
Would we have inflicted civilian casualties if we intervened during the uprising following the first Gulf War? Yes. Now, should that factor have been something to stop us? Would backing the uprising with our military be the same as these terrorists attacks? I think you'll agree that the answer to both of those questions is "no." But if I'm wrong about your answer, then please, correct me.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Messiah[/i]
The actions in Madrid is not much different from the way war is waged.[/quote]
Except for the fact that civilians were the intenended target, and killing a lot of them was what the terrorists wanted to do. Who today wages "war" like that? (Note: I'm not saying I doubt there are states that don't.)
[quote]As for Simmonds, I wish you were over the age of 18, cause I would personally get on a plane, find you, and slap the shit out of you....more than once...you lousy incompetent fucktard....get banned and never come back[/quote]
Firstly and most importantly, a moment of silence for the innocent dead.... :(
....
And then a brief lesson in Polarization Games and Gambit P (from a lecture I had in world issues earlier this year):
[b]Polarization Game:[/b] a "game" played between two factions who both gain something (real or percieved) from continued war between them. The point of the game is to get as many people (normal citizens) as possible to support your faction by convincing them the other faction is evil in all forms of the word.
[b]Gambit P:[/b] one faction commiting an entirely inhumane act in order to get the other faction to attack back with the intended effect of getting many people (normal ordinary people) hurt on both sides. This gives plenty of "inhumane" incidents for both sides to point at, and perpetuates the polarization game indefinately.
I'm not saying anyone's right. I'm not saying anyone's wrong. But just watch it in action and see that it's true...while crying for the many innocent dead...
I should explain why I don t care about these things anymore. and why I say shit happens.
I see this world as a depressing world, full up lies and propaganda, bull shit etc. People get killed in conflicts everyday, ever hour from one conflict to another. To be it does not matter whose getting killed. Civilian or Combatant, someone got killed. Its been happening thought out the 6,000 years or so of human Civilization, and it seems that the Human race has not learned to stop. For me its gotten to the point where I don t really care anymore. People getting killed in the world just seem to be a thing that just happens, Just like rain and snow. So there for Shit Happens. And it does not matter who is doing it, either the american army or nut job Religious text thumping terrorist.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MT [/i]
[B]Yeah, so what's your point. When did I say we should've backed off from supporting the uprising, or that everything we do is perfect?
And while we're on the subject:
Yes, yes, in the land of perfect happy place that would be fine and dandy; but we don't live there now do we.
Would we have inflicted civilian casualties if we intervened during the uprising following the first Gulf War? Yes. Now, should that factor have been something to stop us? Would backing the uprising with our military be the same as these terrorists attacks? I think you'll agree that the answer to both of those questions is "no." But if I'm wrong about your answer, then please, correct me.
Except for the fact that civilians were the intenended target, and killing a lot of them was what the terrorists wanted to do. Who today wages "war" like that? (Note: I'm not saying I doubt there are states that don't.) [/B][/QUOTE]
feel free to invoke Godwins Law on me here, but you have to wonder how fast the Allied effort in WWII would've fallen apart if they had the same freedom of information and news media that we do today.
I mean, aside from Hiroshima/Nagasaki you hear almost nothing about the "atrocities" the allies inflicted in the war.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Morden279 [/i]
[B]Mate, if you post stuff like that, you should *expect* a bad reaction. We wouldn't be in this situation if those things hadn't been said.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah I know and he was wrong, but being angry f'ing and blinding don't help either. Just creates even more bad feelings IMO. Plus I didn't know he was under 18. Am not making excuses for him but am sure alot of ppl at that age don't think before they say stuff! Heck I might have said shit happens myself at that age. I don't know. Now I've grown up I've wiseoned up abit! :)
And Simmonds while I'm not fuming like most ppl are around here, I just want to point out that while you don't care, am sure you would if it was one of your own family members/friends that meant the earth to you.
I agree to a point shit does happen, every day but it was an insensitive comment all the same.
And another thing.........I was never for this war like alot of ppl weren't either, so I also can't help but blame ourselves since things have and probably will get worse. Depressing I know. I still wonder if we was a mistake to be on this planet since we are causing the most damage to ourselves/others.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Captain,Simmonds [/i]
[B]I should explain why I don t care about these things anymore. and why I say shit happens.
I see this world as a depressing world, full up lies and propaganda, bull shit etc. People get killed in conflicts everyday, ever hour from one conflict to another. To be it does not matter whose getting killed. Civilian or Combatant, someone got killed. Its been happening thought out the 6,000 years or so of human Civilization, and it seems that the Human race has not learned to stop. For me its gotten to the point where I don t really care anymore. People getting killed in the world just seem to be a thing that just happens, Just like rain and snow. So there for Shit Happens. And it does not matter who is doing it, either the american army or nut job Religious text thumping terrorist. [/B][/QUOTE]
Its easy to be detached about things that don't really seem to affect you anyway, but what happens when its your family or friends that get killed in something like this, what happens if all that you care about is suddenly threatend? will you still say 'shit happens"
The world is what WE make it, and if you see something wrong in it , its your responsibility to do something about it, not to sit on your butt and say "shit happens", or "who cares".
Terrorists and the other sob''s that
are trying to screw this world win everytime we refuse to confront them, everytime we close our eyes to the darkness.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vertigo_1 [/i]
[B]Who here wouldn't like to stop playing? Only problem is, we stop playing, we die. [/B][/QUOTE]
No no....we're not playing the game...we're pawns in the game. The one's playing the game are the ones running the factions. The ones who want to pull you to their side without questions. Refusing to let the game continue means refusing to villify the "other side". Refusing to decide that eye for an eye is the solution. Because the eyes aren't making the decisions. And if you just keep poking out eyes...well you're never going to get to the root of the problem.
Besides, I don't see how ceasing to play the [b]polarization[/b] game results in death...seems more like continuing does.
You are right, but the world can't really be put into games theory, because there are too many variables that can affect the outcome. I'm taking a class in International Relations theory in college, and its full of references to game theory, but unfortunately while it can give insight into human behavior, it is very limited because it assumes we are totaly rational in our judgement, that pure logc dictates our actions and as the terrorists continue to prove that just isn't true.
EXone, you have a very good point. I'm an idealist. I like living in ivory towers. I like neat theories that fit in boxes. And sometimes I try to live by them, though only to a certain extent of course. I know people aren't neat theories that fit in boxes. Some people are irrational. Some people are stupid. Some people are geniuses beyond my comprehension. And no one is the same person all the time.
Just, when stuff happens (shit happens) that starts following what is (to me) such a clear pattern, it gets me when so many people simply...fall into their pre-designated spots.
Theories aren't infallible, but I'd rather know about them so I have some level of framework, some way to understand even a bit of life. Even if life is always more complicated than any theory can possibly contain.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by WHY [/i]
[B]feel free to invoke Godwins Law on me here, but you have to wonder how fast the Allied effort in WWII would've fallen apart if they had the same freedom of information and news media that we do today.
I mean, aside from Hiroshima/Nagasaki you hear almost nothing about the "atrocities" the allies inflicted in the war. [/B][/QUOTE]
Godwins Law is dumb. It's a lame, lame cop-out, and should never be used.
And I hear about those "atrocities" just a little less than I hear about the nukes; and I think the only way to not ever hear about them is to not pursue a higher education or not to read anything hippies write. Considering I'm not the most interested person in history, I'm sure there are a lot of people that know about, say, the fire bombings of Tokyo (the excuse, if I recall, was so that our invading forces wouldn't have to put up with as much).
Anyway...
I asked "who wages war like that." Present tense. In the past it was obviously different, with baby-flinging and all that over the ages. The modern war isn't waged nearly the same way, and it sure as hell isn't waged with bombs planted at train tracks targeting civilians.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MartianDust [/i]
[B]Yeah I know and he was wrong, but being angry f'ing and blinding don't help either. [/B][/QUOTE]
What the hell, since *when* did I start swearing?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Captain Simmonds[/i]
[B]I see this world as a depressing world, full up lies and propaganda, bull shit etc. People get killed in conflicts everyday, ever hour from one conflict to another. To be it does not matter whose getting killed. Civilian or Combatant, someone got killed. Its been happening thought out the 6,000 years or so of human Civilization, and it seems that the Human race has not learned to stop. For me its gotten to the point where I don t really care anymore. People getting killed in the world just seem to be a thing that just happens, Just like rain and snow. So there for Shit Happens. And it does not matter who is doing it, either the american army or nut job Religious text thumping terrorist.[/B][/QUOTE]
Funnily enough mate, most people don't think the way you do, ok? :)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ShadowDancer [/i]
[B]Godwins Law??? [/B][/QUOTE]
[URL=http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?GodwinsLaw]Godwin's Law[/URL] /prov./ [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups.
Cute, I'd never seen it. The linked article on [URL=http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.10/godwin.if_pr.html]Meme, Counter-meme[/URL] is interesting too.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Morden279 [/i]
[B]What the hell, since *when* did I start swearing?
[/B][/QUOTE]
I didn't mean you specifically so you didn't need to take it personal. :)
I don't remember whether you did or not and I don't care to look and read it all again. I was talking in general about some of the posts here and I didn't just mean swearing anyway. I thought some words were quite uncalled for to state a view/opinion thats all.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Phi [/i]
[B]
Besides, I don't see how ceasing to play the [b]polarization[/b] game results in death...seems more like continuing does.
-Φ [/B][/QUOTE]
Because game theory is just theory, not reality. Im sorry Ive studied it myself, but in the end I always come back to Moregenthaus view of political realsim
This probably reveals more about my psychology, but my psychology closely matches that of the islamic fundamentalists were dealing with, its just slightly different enough, probably due to the inherently non violent teachings contained in the christan upbringing, That mutes the pathology.
You, myself and all others are already classified by individuals as opponents, if you refuse to conform to the belief set, or show deference to those who conform to the belief set, you are to be destroyed. I semi suscribe to the same philosopy, to the point where in combat for a moral value, I would be quite willing to kill even some of my real life aquaintances if they were combatants on the opposite side.
Take the pathology a little further, and I understand how easy it would be to do, and you have all oponents to your world view, even those who are not active combatants, as targets to be converted or eliminated
I hate to say it, but this war is 1200 years old, and either somebody dramaticly reforms conservative islamic thought, or kills them all, either way islam as it exists as a militant expansionistic faith will cease to exist and something new will have to take its place. Thats the only way for the conflict to end.
Secondly there is a difference between deliberate targeting of civilians and collateral damage.
Secondly I would critizise the idea of Isalm as a religion of "peace" in the Koran and in Islamic history it is documented that Mohammed personaly killed oppoents, when returning from Medina to Mecca he did it at the head of a invading army. The jewish population of Mecca was killed after his return. Shortly after his death his followers started the original blitzkrieg, over running the world and destroying christan kingdoms that existed in egypt and all along north africa to conquering spain and almost conquring french.
In fact western civilization owes its continued existance to a frenchman at that point, Charles Martel "The Hammer" due to his victory over muslims at Poitiers, which ended the muslim threat to northern europe and set the stage for the catholic remenents in spain to start their 600 year "reconqueista" or what ever they called it, which the end of, with the fall of Grenada in 1491 or so, allowed Ferdinand and Isabella to celebrate by sponsering some crazy Italian guy, one Christopher Columbus, to go sail west.
yada yada yada and we have the United states 300 years after that.
Frankly from translated verses of the Koran Ive read, and been shown by religious scholars and my knowledge of history, I think Islam is in need of a serious overhall as a belief system in order to be compatible with human existance in anything other then a tribal structure.
so, in short, to end this war in a manner that doesnt have Islam all over the world, and the resulting return to a semi clan based society that islam seems to entail, were gonna have to kill alot of people.
You're forgetting that it's not only islam.
Like (other one of) "reasons" behind bloodshed in israel is that jewish claims it as their holy land and that it's only for them.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by E.T [/i]
[B]You're forgetting that it's not only islam.
Like (other one of) "reasons" behind bloodshed in israel is that jewish claims it as their holy land and that it's only for them. [/B][/QUOTE]
The Jews have had that claim since Moses led them into the desert after the Exodus.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Falcon1 [/i]
[B]One can't help but shake their head when you think about it. [/B][/QUOTE]
[quote]"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
-Calvin[/quote]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by E.T [/i]
[B]You're forgetting that it's not only islam.
Like (other one of) "reasons" behind bloodshed in israel is that jewish claims it as their holy land and that it's only for them. [/B][/QUOTE]
Actually I believe the existance of Israel is just a hobby horse which everybody points to, looking for a simple explanation.
Ignoring the fact that Israel has only existed since 1947, in fact if you look at the origins of the Mandate system in north africa it was in response to the fact that north africa was a haven for pirates (the terrorists of the day) and the constant attempts to weaken and remove the ottoman empire
Im pretty sure that if israel didnt exist we would be roughly in the same boat we are now.
It is a clash of fundamentally incompatable world views, and if you want to preserve your way of life, you are going to have to destroy theirs.
Comments
I say that about most things in the world.
i realy dont give a fuck anymore
[B]Umm....so by your logic, we should thank Simmonds for being a trolling asshole? You realize how stupid that sounds.....right? [/B][/QUOTE]
If we didn't have one asshole amongst us, this place would go [url="http://campus.fortunecity.com/medicine/896/moominindex.htm"]Moomin[/url] (creator Tove Jansson forgot to draw assholes to those poor creatures and look how fat they've become). ;)
In that case why Bush senior didn't kick out Hussein after Gulf War "episode one"?
He encouraged kurds and other Hussein's opponents to rise against him promising support but then immediately betrayed them by allowing Hussein's army to slaughter them. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, so what's your point. When did I say we should've backed off from supporting the uprising, or that everything we do is perfect?
And while we're on the subject:
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by E.T [/i]
Hell, if everyone would be unwilling to start war because people die in those world would be much better place.[/quote]
Yes, yes, in the land of perfect happy place that would be fine and dandy; but we don't live there now do we.
Would we have inflicted civilian casualties if we intervened during the uprising following the first Gulf War? Yes. Now, should that factor have been something to stop us? Would backing the uprising with our military be the same as these terrorists attacks? I think you'll agree that the answer to both of those questions is "no." But if I'm wrong about your answer, then please, correct me.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Messiah[/i]
The actions in Madrid is not much different from the way war is waged.[/quote]
Except for the fact that civilians were the intenended target, and killing a lot of them was what the terrorists wanted to do. Who today wages "war" like that? (Note: I'm not saying I doubt there are states that don't.)
[B]Then exercise a bit of common sense, and don't post when you know it will make a mess. [/B][/QUOTE]
okey
Good luck finding me first..
....
And then a brief lesson in Polarization Games and Gambit P (from a lecture I had in world issues earlier this year):
[b]Polarization Game:[/b] a "game" played between two factions who both gain something (real or percieved) from continued war between them. The point of the game is to get as many people (normal citizens) as possible to support your faction by convincing them the other faction is evil in all forms of the word.
[b]Gambit P:[/b] one faction commiting an entirely inhumane act in order to get the other faction to attack back with the intended effect of getting many people (normal ordinary people) hurt on both sides. This gives plenty of "inhumane" incidents for both sides to point at, and perpetuates the polarization game indefinately.
I'm not saying anyone's right. I'm not saying anyone's wrong. But just watch it in action and see that it's true...while crying for the many innocent dead...
...and refusing to continue the game.
-Φ
I see this world as a depressing world, full up lies and propaganda, bull shit etc. People get killed in conflicts everyday, ever hour from one conflict to another. To be it does not matter whose getting killed. Civilian or Combatant, someone got killed. Its been happening thought out the 6,000 years or so of human Civilization, and it seems that the Human race has not learned to stop. For me its gotten to the point where I don t really care anymore. People getting killed in the world just seem to be a thing that just happens, Just like rain and snow. So there for Shit Happens. And it does not matter who is doing it, either the american army or nut job Religious text thumping terrorist.
[B]Yeah, so what's your point. When did I say we should've backed off from supporting the uprising, or that everything we do is perfect?
And while we're on the subject:
Yes, yes, in the land of perfect happy place that would be fine and dandy; but we don't live there now do we.
Would we have inflicted civilian casualties if we intervened during the uprising following the first Gulf War? Yes. Now, should that factor have been something to stop us? Would backing the uprising with our military be the same as these terrorists attacks? I think you'll agree that the answer to both of those questions is "no." But if I'm wrong about your answer, then please, correct me.
Except for the fact that civilians were the intenended target, and killing a lot of them was what the terrorists wanted to do. Who today wages "war" like that? (Note: I'm not saying I doubt there are states that don't.) [/B][/QUOTE]
feel free to invoke Godwins Law on me here, but you have to wonder how fast the Allied effort in WWII would've fallen apart if they had the same freedom of information and news media that we do today.
I mean, aside from Hiroshima/Nagasaki you hear almost nothing about the "atrocities" the allies inflicted in the war.
[B]Mate, if you post stuff like that, you should *expect* a bad reaction. We wouldn't be in this situation if those things hadn't been said.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah I know and he was wrong, but being angry f'ing and blinding don't help either. Just creates even more bad feelings IMO. Plus I didn't know he was under 18. Am not making excuses for him but am sure alot of ppl at that age don't think before they say stuff! Heck I might have said shit happens myself at that age. I don't know. Now I've grown up I've wiseoned up abit! :)
And Simmonds while I'm not fuming like most ppl are around here, I just want to point out that while you don't care, am sure you would if it was one of your own family members/friends that meant the earth to you.
I agree to a point shit does happen, every day but it was an insensitive comment all the same.
And another thing.........I was never for this war like alot of ppl weren't either, so I also can't help but blame ourselves since things have and probably will get worse. Depressing I know. I still wonder if we was a mistake to be on this planet since we are causing the most damage to ourselves/others.
[B]I should explain why I don t care about these things anymore. and why I say shit happens.
I see this world as a depressing world, full up lies and propaganda, bull shit etc. People get killed in conflicts everyday, ever hour from one conflict to another. To be it does not matter whose getting killed. Civilian or Combatant, someone got killed. Its been happening thought out the 6,000 years or so of human Civilization, and it seems that the Human race has not learned to stop. For me its gotten to the point where I don t really care anymore. People getting killed in the world just seem to be a thing that just happens, Just like rain and snow. So there for Shit Happens. And it does not matter who is doing it, either the american army or nut job Religious text thumping terrorist. [/B][/QUOTE]
Its easy to be detached about things that don't really seem to affect you anyway, but what happens when its your family or friends that get killed in something like this, what happens if all that you care about is suddenly threatend? will you still say 'shit happens"
The world is what WE make it, and if you see something wrong in it , its your responsibility to do something about it, not to sit on your butt and say "shit happens", or "who cares".
Terrorists and the other sob''s that
are trying to screw this world win everytime we refuse to confront them, everytime we close our eyes to the darkness.
[B]...and refusing to continue the game.[/B][/QUOTE]
Who here wouldn't like to stop playing? Only problem is, we stop playing, we die.
[B]Who here wouldn't like to stop playing? Only problem is, we stop playing, we die. [/B][/QUOTE]
No no....we're not playing the game...we're pawns in the game. The one's playing the game are the ones running the factions. The ones who want to pull you to their side without questions. Refusing to let the game continue means refusing to villify the "other side". Refusing to decide that eye for an eye is the solution. Because the eyes aren't making the decisions. And if you just keep poking out eyes...well you're never going to get to the root of the problem.
Besides, I don't see how ceasing to play the [b]polarization[/b] game results in death...seems more like continuing does.
-Φ
Just, when stuff happens (shit happens) that starts following what is (to me) such a clear pattern, it gets me when so many people simply...fall into their pre-designated spots.
Theories aren't infallible, but I'd rather know about them so I have some level of framework, some way to understand even a bit of life. Even if life is always more complicated than any theory can possibly contain.
-Φ
[B]feel free to invoke Godwins Law on me here, but you have to wonder how fast the Allied effort in WWII would've fallen apart if they had the same freedom of information and news media that we do today.
I mean, aside from Hiroshima/Nagasaki you hear almost nothing about the "atrocities" the allies inflicted in the war. [/B][/QUOTE]
Godwins Law is dumb. It's a lame, lame cop-out, and should never be used.
And I hear about those "atrocities" just a little less than I hear about the nukes; and I think the only way to not ever hear about them is to not pursue a higher education or not to read anything hippies write. Considering I'm not the most interested person in history, I'm sure there are a lot of people that know about, say, the fire bombings of Tokyo (the excuse, if I recall, was so that our invading forces wouldn't have to put up with as much).
Anyway...
I asked "who wages war like that." Present tense. In the past it was obviously different, with baby-flinging and all that over the ages. The modern war isn't waged nearly the same way, and it sure as hell isn't waged with bombs planted at train tracks targeting civilians.
[B]Godwins Law is dumb. It's a lame, lame cop-out, and should never be used.[/B][/QUOTE]
Well, [i]Hitler[/i] thought Godwin's Law was dumb, too. ;)
[B]Yeah I know and he was wrong, but being angry f'ing and blinding don't help either. [/B][/QUOTE]
What the hell, since *when* did I start swearing?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Captain Simmonds[/i]
[B]I see this world as a depressing world, full up lies and propaganda, bull shit etc. People get killed in conflicts everyday, ever hour from one conflict to another. To be it does not matter whose getting killed. Civilian or Combatant, someone got killed. Its been happening thought out the 6,000 years or so of human Civilization, and it seems that the Human race has not learned to stop. For me its gotten to the point where I don t really care anymore. People getting killed in the world just seem to be a thing that just happens, Just like rain and snow. So there for Shit Happens. And it does not matter who is doing it, either the american army or nut job Religious text thumping terrorist.[/B][/QUOTE]
Funnily enough mate, most people don't think the way you do, ok? :)
Regards,
Morden
[B]Godwins Law??? [/B][/QUOTE]
[URL=http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?GodwinsLaw]Godwin's Law[/URL] /prov./ [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups.
Cute, I'd never seen it. The linked article on [URL=http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.10/godwin.if_pr.html]Meme, Counter-meme[/URL] is interesting too.
[B]What the hell, since *when* did I start swearing?
[/B][/QUOTE]
I didn't mean you specifically so you didn't need to take it personal. :)
I don't remember whether you did or not and I don't care to look and read it all again. I was talking in general about some of the posts here and I didn't just mean swearing anyway. I thought some words were quite uncalled for to state a view/opinion thats all.
[B]
Besides, I don't see how ceasing to play the [b]polarization[/b] game results in death...seems more like continuing does.
-Φ [/B][/QUOTE]
Because game theory is just theory, not reality. Im sorry Ive studied it myself, but in the end I always come back to Moregenthaus view of political realsim
This probably reveals more about my psychology, but my psychology closely matches that of the islamic fundamentalists were dealing with, its just slightly different enough, probably due to the inherently non violent teachings contained in the christan upbringing, That mutes the pathology.
You, myself and all others are already classified by individuals as opponents, if you refuse to conform to the belief set, or show deference to those who conform to the belief set, you are to be destroyed. I semi suscribe to the same philosopy, to the point where in combat for a moral value, I would be quite willing to kill even some of my real life aquaintances if they were combatants on the opposite side.
Take the pathology a little further, and I understand how easy it would be to do, and you have all oponents to your world view, even those who are not active combatants, as targets to be converted or eliminated
I hate to say it, but this war is 1200 years old, and either somebody dramaticly reforms conservative islamic thought, or kills them all, either way islam as it exists as a militant expansionistic faith will cease to exist and something new will have to take its place. Thats the only way for the conflict to end.
Secondly there is a difference between deliberate targeting of civilians and collateral damage.
Secondly I would critizise the idea of Isalm as a religion of "peace" in the Koran and in Islamic history it is documented that Mohammed personaly killed oppoents, when returning from Medina to Mecca he did it at the head of a invading army. The jewish population of Mecca was killed after his return. Shortly after his death his followers started the original blitzkrieg, over running the world and destroying christan kingdoms that existed in egypt and all along north africa to conquering spain and almost conquring french.
In fact western civilization owes its continued existance to a frenchman at that point, Charles Martel "The Hammer" due to his victory over muslims at Poitiers, which ended the muslim threat to northern europe and set the stage for the catholic remenents in spain to start their 600 year "reconqueista" or what ever they called it, which the end of, with the fall of Grenada in 1491 or so, allowed Ferdinand and Isabella to celebrate by sponsering some crazy Italian guy, one Christopher Columbus, to go sail west.
yada yada yada and we have the United states 300 years after that.
Frankly from translated verses of the Koran Ive read, and been shown by religious scholars and my knowledge of history, I think Islam is in need of a serious overhall as a belief system in order to be compatible with human existance in anything other then a tribal structure.
so, in short, to end this war in a manner that doesnt have Islam all over the world, and the resulting return to a semi clan based society that islam seems to entail, were gonna have to kill alot of people.
Regards,
Morden
Like (other one of) "reasons" behind bloodshed in israel is that jewish claims it as their holy land and that it's only for them.
[B]You're forgetting that it's not only islam.
Like (other one of) "reasons" behind bloodshed in israel is that jewish claims it as their holy land and that it's only for them. [/B][/QUOTE]
The Jews have had that claim since Moses led them into the desert after the Exodus.
Regards,
Morden
One can't help but shake their head when you think about it.
[B]One can't help but shake their head when you think about it. [/B][/QUOTE]
[quote]"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
-Calvin[/quote]
[B]You're forgetting that it's not only islam.
Like (other one of) "reasons" behind bloodshed in israel is that jewish claims it as their holy land and that it's only for them. [/B][/QUOTE]
Actually I believe the existance of Israel is just a hobby horse which everybody points to, looking for a simple explanation.
Ignoring the fact that Israel has only existed since 1947, in fact if you look at the origins of the Mandate system in north africa it was in response to the fact that north africa was a haven for pirates (the terrorists of the day) and the constant attempts to weaken and remove the ottoman empire
Im pretty sure that if israel didnt exist we would be roughly in the same boat we are now.
It is a clash of fundamentally incompatable world views, and if you want to preserve your way of life, you are going to have to destroy theirs.