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Grey Council...WHAT?!?!?! (Spoilers)

GilEstelGilEstel Earthforce Officer
in Babylon 5
What was the deal with the Grey Council's handling of the Rangers? There exists something in the military called the chain of command. Soldiers are disciplined, debriefed, and/or commanded along the chain of command. I would have thought, especially in the tradition bound Minbari society, that Rangers would be treated in this manner. The Rangers have their own leaders and have the En'til'zha. Why would a "misbehaving" Ranger be personally punished by the Grey Council? And why would Sheridan (who arguably may not be in the chain of command) have to use political, instead of military, clout to get him off the hook? And if the Rangers are the military/police arm of the ISA, why do they answer to the Minbari executive office? If I were a member race of the ISA, I would certainly NOT want the Minbari in charge of the sole military force of an alliance. I would want a military structure which is answerable to some sort of oversight committee composed of various members of the ISA. Legendary Minbari fighting force or not, the Rangers changed under the ISA and should reflect that fact.

Also, a little side note: It was extremely...cute...that the Grey Council left their floating fortress in space to take care of business on Minbar itself. I thought they usually brought people to their ship, so as to distance themselves from the day to day of Minbar and be as mysterious as possible. Strange that a purely Minbari organization (like the Grey Council) would change its traditions when it expects another organization, a multiracial, multiplanetary organization, to keep its outdated Minbari traditions. Oh, and the Council must be losing power....free reign to enter doors or not, I wouldn't imagine that a Narn would be able to interupt a Council session, be he G'Kar or G'Quon himself.

[This message has been edited by GilEstel (edited 01-23-2002).]

Comments

  • SanfamSanfam I like clocks.
    They were not the Grey Council. They were just a council.
    Just because there are nine of them doesn't mean they are grey. For all we know, there could be nine councils, one of which is the Grey Council. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
  • IceFireTBPIceFireTBP Trainee
    It WAS a pretty big deal that any Anla'shock would even think of breaking the rules. Not to mention one of the most sacred.
  • Vertigo1Vertigo1 Official Fuzzy Dice of FirstOnes.com
    Its assumed that they're the Grey Council since they dress like them, they're in the same room that they meet in, and they act [b]exactly[/b] like them. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] Kinda a big indicator that its the Grey Council. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] If it was another council, then it wouldn't be meeting in the tactical center of a war cruiser.

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  • samuelksamuelk The Unstoppable Mr. 'K'
    JMS has said that they were not the Grey Council.
  • LightNZLightNZ Ranger
    Yes, jms said that there are NOT
  • SanfamSanfam I like clocks.
    [quote]Originally posted by Vertigo1:
    [b]Its assumed that they're the Grey Council since they dress like them, they're in the same room that they meet in, and they act [b]exactly[/b] like them. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] Kinda a big indicator that its the Grey Council. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] If it was another council, then it wouldn't be meeting in the tactical center of a war cruiser.[/B][/quote]

    So, I can dress up like Nixon for halloween, recite some of his speeches, and generally act like him, but that doesn't actually make me Nixon!

    Wow. Nixon. *shudder*
    [b]*Sanfam neuralizes the room*[/b]



    [This message has been edited by Sanfam (edited 01-24-2002).]
  • GilEstelGilEstel Earthforce Officer
    Point still stands. Why is a purely Minbari council still presiding over an interstellar police force? And don't say that those hooded figures weren't Minbari. I doubt that the other races would allow themselves to take up Minbari traditions that easily. It puts the Minbari in too powerful a position if the Anla'shok are under the judicial influence of a Minbari council and the headquarters of the ISA are also located on Minbar.
  • omegaomega Earthforce Officer
    How do you know they were an all Minbari counsel, can you see through clothes and if so I am very interested in how you acuired said ability [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img].
  • Falcon1Falcon1 Elite Ranger
    If they were the Grey Council anyway, the lead speaker, whatever his name was, would have been holding the staff, he wasn't...

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  • FreejackFreejack Jake the Not-so-Wise
    [quote]Originally posted by omega:
    [b]How do you know they were an all Minbari counsel, can you see through clothes and if so I am very interested in how you acuired said ability [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img].[/b][/quote]

    I wonder what G'Kar saw when he looked up the hoods of their robes?
  • samuelksamuelk The Unstoppable Mr. 'K'
    I'm guessing he saw faces.
  • Falcon1Falcon1 Elite Ranger
    I reckon he saw a big GREEN smiling Arrdvark! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]

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    'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen

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  • GilEstelGilEstel Earthforce Officer
    No, a PURPLE Aardvark.......

    Grey hoods.....dark chamber with a central shaft of light and 9 surrounding bodies in shafts of light.....seems to smack of the Minbari. Of course, there is the possibility that they weren't all Minbari....but do you think a single Human would have let some sort of judicial forum occur in that fashion? Certainly the Narn and the Drazi would be too independent of mind to follow Minbari tradition like that. I have great respect for the Minbari, but I don't think the other races would let themselves be dressed up in Minbari garb and then proceed in a Minbari style trial/judgment. Especially since the movie takes place in 2264, by which time no race (other than Minbari) would have had enough time to fully acclimate itself to Minbari custom (and I don't mean individuals can't, but the race as a whole). I wouldn't know which scares me worse if I were a member race of the ISA: having a purely Minbari council judging my fellow [insert race name here]'s actions as Anla'shok, or having my species' representatives to Minbar be so cowed as to dress up in mysterious gray hoods and judge a man in a dark room with shafts of light.
  • LightNZLightNZ Ranger
    Remeber though, the rangers are being trained in something that is purely minbari
  • BekennBekenn Sinclair's Duck
    The Rangers are an organization with a thousand years of history and tradition; that doesn't disappear overnight. Keep in mind, the Alliance at this point in time is less than five years old, and the Rangers didn't start having non-human/minbari trainees until they were chosen as the Alliance's police force. The Rangers haven't had time to become fully integrated yet. I imagine that a lot of those traditions that the Rangers follow are hot political issues that are still being debated throughout the Alliance for exactly the reasons brought up here.

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  • GilEstelGilEstel Earthforce Officer
    Sure...thousand years of custom/tradition. But they were essentially tossed aside by the Minbari. Read "To Dream in the City of Sorrows", which is apparently about as canonical as a B5 novel gets. The Rangers had little respect or funding as of the 1st season of B5. They lost so much prestige that Commander Sinclair, a human, became En'til'zha without excessive trouble. He was the first to advocate replacing old, nonsensical traditions. It was only after humans became integrated into the group and Sinclair actively lead the Rangers, in his own uniquely human style, that the Rangers once again became a legendary, respected fighting force. The traditions were already being changed and Minbari society essentially already let the Rangers become autonomous and take up several human characteristics.
  • Entil'ZhaEntil'Zha I see famous people
    [quote]Originally posted by samuelk:
    [b]JMS has said that they were not the Grey Council.[/b][/quote]

    its the GREEEN council



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    ..And so it Begins
  • LightNZLightNZ Ranger
    ooooooh PURPLE robes would look good in that room!!
  • Falcon1Falcon1 Elite Ranger
    No... the GREEN would attack the Purple and win...

    GREEN COUNCIL 1 Purple Council 0

    [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/tongue.gif[/img]

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    'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen

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  • Language of HopeLanguage of Hope Elite Ranger
    [quote]Originally posted by GilEstel:
    [b]Sure...thousand years of custom/tradition. But they were essentially tossed aside by the Minbari. Read "To Dream in the City of Sorrows", which is apparently about as canonical as a B5 novel gets. The Rangers had little respect or funding as of the 1st season of B5. They lost so much prestige that Commander Sinclair, a human, became En'til'zha without excessive trouble. He was the first to advocate replacing old, nonsensical traditions. It was only after humans became integrated into the group and Sinclair actively lead the Rangers, in his own uniquely human style, that the Rangers once again became a legendary, respected fighting force. The traditions were already being changed and Minbari society essentially already let the Rangers become autonomous and take up several human characteristics. [/b][/quote]

    Good points. But still, you have to change the way people *think* to change things so old. And that is far more difficult.

    One of the best points in the film: It is questioning its own heroes and their holy rules. That alone makes the film interesting.

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  • BekennBekenn Sinclair's Duck
    I've read the book, and those are all good points. But in changing the traditions around, the management system wasn't changed; the Rangers, for better or worse, are still managed in about the same way they have been for a thousand years. I think the book supports my points in showing just how difficult it was for some among the Minbari to accept humans as Rangers, particularly Sinclair as Entil'zha. Now, only six or seven years later, they're being asked to accept not only humans, but also Drazi, Narn, Pak'ma'ra? Note Dulann's line to Martel about Tirk and Na'Feel. It's clear that the Rangers simply haven't had enough time yet to become fully integrated; none of the newer races have had time to climb the ladder to positions of authority yet. Hence, an all-Minbari council, ruling in the Minbari fashion.

    I will admit, though, that it seems odd not to have at least one human on that council, though I suppose there may have been one, given that we didn't see all the faces.

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    We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!
  • LightNZLightNZ Ranger
    well we might see what develops in the series
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