I think we will be suprised about the story,if there is a new series....I think JMS got a lot of twists and interesting events waiting for us....I don't think we will be dissapointed....
Even taking into account the fact that the styles are different, I came away with the definite
feeling that both Crusade and especially this most recent movie were simply not up to the same
quality standards as Babylon 5 has. It was almost like watching a low grade spoof of the real
thing.
Part of the reason for this may be that Babylon 5 has an exceptionally good cast that interrelate
in such a complex and yet seamless and believable way. Also I think the more serious tone
of Babylon 5 is an asset, because it lends a certain weight and credibility to the show.
Whereas this more "adventurous" (not that I ever feel Babylon 5 lacks adventure) style of show
almost comes off as a cartoon version of the real thing. It's almost as if it's geared more
towards kids than the seasoned fans who are accustomed to the top quality deep sci-fi of
Babylon 5.
Babylon 5 set the bar very very high, indeed. And I'd rather just watch B5 than watch things
that pale in comparison.
When one is used to driving a mercedes, a toyota doesn't satisfy. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
[quote]Originally posted by Dunedain:
[b]Even taking into account the fact that the styles are different, I came away with the definite
feeling that both Crusade and especially this most recent movie were simply not up to the same
quality standards as Babylon 5 has. [/quote][/b]
People said the same thing about The Gathering.
Crusade was trashed by TNT's interference (a fact that becomes apparent if you had read the scripts that JMS posted on Bookface.com -- THEY were up to B5 standards because TNT hadn't interfered with them).
The ONLY COMPLETE WORK of Babylon 5 we've seen from JMS is the original series.
Honestly, I was in awe of how bad it was. It reminded me of some 1950's sci-fi movie. Any moment I expected the guys from MST3K to pop up and start ridiculing it. Since when did Rangers have this suicidal never EVER retreat creed. Gee our weapons are down so we're gonna die but at least we won't be running. The whole "battle" with the valen was aweful. The thing just sat there taking hit after hit. It had enough power to turn around and ram but not to turn around and fire. The cgi was aweful. Did you see how hyperspace looked? The battles? The enemy ships looked so much like hunks of trash that I would have figured them as rejects from the pakmara navy. And the VR weapons systems. My God the weps officer flailing and punching and kicking had me crying. The part with her screaming and shooting mines had me laughing.
Crusade at its worst at least resembeled B5. This was sad.
[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited 01-21-2002).]
I watched LOTR last night... and I was impressed. I thought the acting was good, the characters were likeable, G'Kar was in flying form. And the few bits of comedy helped to lighten the mood abit. The cgi was cool (I liked the more turbulent look to hyperspace). The Liandra was a nice looking ship, and I was impressed with the set they used... small, compact, rugged. The Valen looked like a brick but I think it looked good actually, you could tell is was an Earth influenced design with the front looking in some ways like and Omega.
Overall I give it the thumbs up! Its certainly one of the best pilots I've seen for a while. Fingers crossed we'll see a series from it!
------------------
'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen
Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://www.nialb5.com"]B5 site[/url].
Granted, The Gathering might not have had the kind of subtle refinement that we have come to expect
of the regular season episodes. But I think it was far, far better than this most recent movie.
Let's put it this way, a movie has to be incredibly bad for me to turn it off in the opening minutes
because I can't bear to watch it any more.
From Lennier's description, I'm glad I didn't see more than I did. That sounds just awful. But I
could tell even if the first couple minutes that it was not going to be a pleasant experience.
Punching and kicking to use a ship's weapons systems?? Screaming while shooting at mines?? Argggh!
I'm truly thankful I didn't subject myself to that.
Dunedain... I think you need to read Samuelks post on the guy who's actually researching using such tech for modern warfare... I have to admit it was a bit cheesy when she went all out and kicked and punched, but the whole idea of the system is excellent, and 100% useable with a few years, except for the artifical gravity bit.
Obviously everyone has an opinion, but no where did I think the movie was so bad as to make me turn it off...
------------------
'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen
Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://www.nialb5.com"]www.NialB5.com[/url].
[This message has been edited by Falcon1 (edited 01-22-2002).]
Ok, well, here's my $.02 for what it's worth.
Excellent work. Good story, interesting characters, surprises, etc.
As for the CGI, realize that it was all started over again from scratch using Maya instead of lightwave. Believe it or not, JMS has stated that WB lost ALL of the original cgi models! The only thing they had to work with was the stuff from ITF!
Let's face it, a pilot for any new series has a big uphill battle. You're going to need lots of exposition to get the viewers up to speed. You've got to introduce a whole new cast of characters, break in the newest viewers in to the whole B5 universe, and keep it entertaining.
LOTR is not B5 and was not intended to be. It is not supposed to be as dramatic or arc driven, but more action-adventure.
I admit that I was a little put off by the movie in the beginning, but as I got pulled more into it, it got better and better.
By the end I was convinced that this will be a great series.
Oh and btw, a guy with a PHD in gesture recognition has posted a detailed analysis of the Liandra's weapon system on rec.arts.tv.scifi.b5.moderated. He thinks that the vr weapons systems they used was very well done and a viable control system.
[quote]Punching and kicking to use a ship's weapons systems?? Screaming while shooting at mines?? Argggh![/quote]
Yet no one seems to have a problem with the Rangers punching and kicking their PPG-armed enemies with sticks and fists.
Remember, the Rangers are trained in hand-to-hand combat. This weapons system is an extention of that training.
Yes, the screaming was a bit over-the-top, but then again, maybe it wasn't. The ship could have easily been destroyed by all of those mines--I think a little screaming is in order if an entire crew's lives are in your hands.
Quite frankly, your opinion on the movie isn't worth much if you didn't watch the entire thing.
It's like someone saying B5 sucks when they've only seen the first 2 or 3 episodes--and we've all seen THAT before.
[This message has been edited by samuelk (edited 01-22-2002).]
You know what bothered me about the weapons system, not the kicking, not the person hanging in space, it was the cinematography. The scene where she was destroying the mines was done in such a way that it felt like Andromeda or some cheap syndicated sci-fi show. The function of the targeting system is cool and seems extremely intuitive, it was just the way they shot that scene that made it look cheesy.
------------------
[i]This is crazy. I hope I haven't brain my damaged.[/i]
I mean, if I went 'round saying I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
1. Like somebody already mentioned, JMS had to basically start from scratch with this pilot/mini-movie. They had limited models and there are bound to be many discrepancies from the original show.
2. This is not just for us, the die-hard B5 fans who need a new fix of the B5 universe. This is also to draw in a new fanbase along with the die-hards. Because this was just a pilot/mini-movie, there had to be a higher level of explanations for things that was going on, whilst not letting too much of the story out. Until I hear a review from someone who never saw Babylon 5, WE can't judge the potential for this series by this little teaser that was presented to us.
3. REMEMBER this is JMS we're talking about. Even though there is a very small space of time with which to work with in the B5 universe at this point of the story, I have faith in the ability of JMS to produce a valid connection between this "series" and the two prior ones. Who knows? The Hand could be an enemy of the Rangers from far in the future that played around with time travel and was sent back too far and was defeated by the Firstones and locked away. Only to now find a way out due to the leaving of the remaining Firstones. Could one of the Firstones that left have been a gatekeeper? Maybe they set the system on "auto" and left. They could be that arrogant as we have seen with the Vorlons and Shadows. Or maybe The Hand were Firstones. They got into a war and was "locked away" in some other dimension as G'kar said. There are many possibilities, I mean, maybe the Drakh found out about the story of this ancient enemy and used it to their advantage when wanting to produce a new type of ship (starshapedship). The "Hand" could just be a product of the Drakh propaganda machine taking a lesson from the Minbari in "terror". That could be the reason that we never hear about them in Crusade. We hear about a Drakh war, not a Hand war.
--------------------------------------------
I also wanted to say something about the Liandra. I remember Dulann saying something about a "Junali" style of design. Could the Minbari have been (or whoever built the ship) experimenting with new types of ships?
It seems possible that it was a "concept ship" and was never meant for mass production.
It could also have been a one of a kind ship that was made specifically for one mission, but perhaps performed better than anticipated and kept around as a support ship.
Just like the Whitestar if I recall correctly. There was only one that was used to free the Ranger base from the Centauri blockade of Zagros 7(?). After that encounter with the Shadow vessel and they saw how it performed, who's to say that wasn’t the reason for the mass production.
--------------------------------------------
The only thing I didn’t really think fit was that whole "Rangers never retreat" mythos. Remember when Delenn faced off against the Drakh? She retreated, regrouped, and returned to kill those sons of b*tches. I could understand the council being mad if he jumped in an escape pod and left the crew to die, but saving the crew by retreating sounds tactically wise. Maybe that’s why the Grey Council was 'Cutting" the Rangers earlier on in the Babylon 5 series. They kept losing too many Rangers due to this absurd rule. And cause they didn’t believe that the Shadows would return, but that’s for another topic.
I guess that's my rant. If I've been mistaken about anything in there I have no doubt that y'all will correct me. Like Garibaldi said, Make sure you're right or else you'll get skinned alive.
Peace
ShadoStarr
------------------
"tha infinite depthz of
tha mind iz unimaginable"
[quote]Originally posted by samuelk:
[b] Yet no one seems to have a problem with the Rangers punching and kicking their PPG-armed enemies with sticks and fists.
[This message has been edited by samuelk (edited 01-22-2002).][/b][/quote]
Hand to hand combat is somewhat different from someone using karate to shoot a ships weapons systems.
[quote]Originally posted by Lennier:
[b] Hand to hand combat is somewhat different from someone using karate to shoot a ships weapons systems.[/b][/quote]
Yes, but there's a discipline there that can be harnessed. Why spend time teaching Rangers how to specialize in a weapons console when you can teach them how to fire weapons using a training they've already learned?
Well I watched LOTR last night for the 2nd time, and I enjoyed it even more. I think the level of humour was excellent, and the cast worked very well with it. You could get the feeling that some of the crew had already served together, and the others blended in very well. I do think the fight with the Raiders was a bit rushed, I think they should have added maybe 2 more shots of the Raiders hammering the Enfali...
------------------
'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen
Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://www.nialb5.com"]www.NialB5.com[/url].
[quote]Originally posted by samuelk:
[b]
Yes, but there's a discipline there that can be harnessed. Why spend time teaching Rangers how to specialize in a weapons console when you can teach them how to fire weapons using a training they've already learned?[/b][/quote]
Since when have rangers gone for the quick easy way. A weapons officer isn't gonna get tired out as quickly sitting at a console as he or she will flaing around. Imagine a long drawn out battle, or even many in quick succesion. Its a moot point anyway. I don't care if a version of it might be a sound idea 100 years down the road. In the movie it just looked aweful.
[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited 01-23-2002).]
[quote]Originally posted by Lennier:
[b] Since when have rangers gone for the quick easy way. A weapons officer isn't gonna get tired out as quickly sitting at a console as he or she will flaing around.[/b][/quote]
You yourself just said the Raingers never did anything the easy way.
At the same time, imagine a long, drawn out battle with other people... a Ranger will get tired more quickly in hand-to-hand combat than if he had a PPG.
[quote][b]Imagine a long drawn out battle, or even many in quick succesion. Its a moot point anyway.[/b][/quote]
The Liandra isn't equipped for long, drawn-out battles. It's not a warship; it's only a patrol ship.
[This message has been edited by samuelk (edited 01-23-2002).]
Not taking the easy way doesn't mean they'd take the way which in the long term would reduce combat efficiency. Even if its a patrol ship they have to be prepared for battles whether or not the ship is meant for it.
Once upon a time there were two groups of people, the pro-Holographic Weapons System people and the Anti-Holograhic Weapons System people. Then there was the Great Debate...
[quote]Once upon a time there were two groups of people, the pro-Holographic Weapons System people and the Anti-Holograhic Weapons System people. Then there was the Great Debate...[/quote]
And not long after that one side began using "green" in the arguments and the other "purple." And so began the third green-purple war in the history of B5 completing the one. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
More seariously it sounds like we have reached an impass on the holo weapon interface. I am sure JMS will improve it by the time it becomes a series, and the problems after that should hopefully be acceptable under the fiction aspect of sci-fi. At least for me it is plausible enough, maybe not ideal, but reasonable and is different from the standard star trek approach.
Comments
feeling that both Crusade and especially this most recent movie were simply not up to the same
quality standards as Babylon 5 has. It was almost like watching a low grade spoof of the real
thing.
Part of the reason for this may be that Babylon 5 has an exceptionally good cast that interrelate
in such a complex and yet seamless and believable way. Also I think the more serious tone
of Babylon 5 is an asset, because it lends a certain weight and credibility to the show.
Whereas this more "adventurous" (not that I ever feel Babylon 5 lacks adventure) style of show
almost comes off as a cartoon version of the real thing. It's almost as if it's geared more
towards kids than the seasoned fans who are accustomed to the top quality deep sci-fi of
Babylon 5.
Babylon 5 set the bar very very high, indeed. And I'd rather just watch B5 than watch things
that pale in comparison.
When one is used to driving a mercedes, a toyota doesn't satisfy. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
[b]Even taking into account the fact that the styles are different, I came away with the definite
feeling that both Crusade and especially this most recent movie were simply not up to the same
quality standards as Babylon 5 has. [/quote][/b]
People said the same thing about The Gathering.
Crusade was trashed by TNT's interference (a fact that becomes apparent if you had read the scripts that JMS posted on Bookface.com -- THEY were up to B5 standards because TNT hadn't interfered with them).
The ONLY COMPLETE WORK of Babylon 5 we've seen from JMS is the original series.
The Gathering was weak on its own.
Crusade was weak because TNT interfered.
Give Legend of the Rangers a chance.
Crusade at its worst at least resembeled B5. This was sad.
[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited 01-21-2002).]
Overall I give it the thumbs up! Its certainly one of the best pilots I've seen for a while. Fingers crossed we'll see a series from it!
------------------
'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen
Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://www.nialb5.com"]B5 site[/url].
Granted, The Gathering might not have had the kind of subtle refinement that we have come to expect
of the regular season episodes. But I think it was far, far better than this most recent movie.
Let's put it this way, a movie has to be incredibly bad for me to turn it off in the opening minutes
because I can't bear to watch it any more.
From Lennier's description, I'm glad I didn't see more than I did. That sounds just awful. But I
could tell even if the first couple minutes that it was not going to be a pleasant experience.
Punching and kicking to use a ship's weapons systems?? Screaming while shooting at mines?? Argggh!
I'm truly thankful I didn't subject myself to that.
Obviously everyone has an opinion, but no where did I think the movie was so bad as to make me turn it off...
------------------
'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen
Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://www.nialb5.com"]www.NialB5.com[/url].
[This message has been edited by Falcon1 (edited 01-22-2002).]
Excellent work. Good story, interesting characters, surprises, etc.
As for the CGI, realize that it was all started over again from scratch using Maya instead of lightwave. Believe it or not, JMS has stated that WB lost ALL of the original cgi models! The only thing they had to work with was the stuff from ITF!
Let's face it, a pilot for any new series has a big uphill battle. You're going to need lots of exposition to get the viewers up to speed. You've got to introduce a whole new cast of characters, break in the newest viewers in to the whole B5 universe, and keep it entertaining.
LOTR is not B5 and was not intended to be. It is not supposed to be as dramatic or arc driven, but more action-adventure.
I admit that I was a little put off by the movie in the beginning, but as I got pulled more into it, it got better and better.
By the end I was convinced that this will be a great series.
Oh and btw, a guy with a PHD in gesture recognition has posted a detailed analysis of the Liandra's weapon system on rec.arts.tv.scifi.b5.moderated. He thinks that the vr weapons systems they used was very well done and a viable control system.
Yet no one seems to have a problem with the Rangers punching and kicking their PPG-armed enemies with sticks and fists.
Remember, the Rangers are trained in hand-to-hand combat. This weapons system is an extention of that training.
Yes, the screaming was a bit over-the-top, but then again, maybe it wasn't. The ship could have easily been destroyed by all of those mines--I think a little screaming is in order if an entire crew's lives are in your hands.
Quite frankly, your opinion on the movie isn't worth much if you didn't watch the entire thing.
It's like someone saying B5 sucks when they've only seen the first 2 or 3 episodes--and we've all seen THAT before.
[This message has been edited by samuelk (edited 01-22-2002).]
------------------
[i]This is crazy. I hope I haven't brain my damaged.[/i]
I mean, if I went 'round saying I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
1. Like somebody already mentioned, JMS had to basically start from scratch with this pilot/mini-movie. They had limited models and there are bound to be many discrepancies from the original show.
2. This is not just for us, the die-hard B5 fans who need a new fix of the B5 universe. This is also to draw in a new fanbase along with the die-hards. Because this was just a pilot/mini-movie, there had to be a higher level of explanations for things that was going on, whilst not letting too much of the story out. Until I hear a review from someone who never saw Babylon 5, WE can't judge the potential for this series by this little teaser that was presented to us.
3. REMEMBER this is JMS we're talking about. Even though there is a very small space of time with which to work with in the B5 universe at this point of the story, I have faith in the ability of JMS to produce a valid connection between this "series" and the two prior ones. Who knows? The Hand could be an enemy of the Rangers from far in the future that played around with time travel and was sent back too far and was defeated by the Firstones and locked away. Only to now find a way out due to the leaving of the remaining Firstones. Could one of the Firstones that left have been a gatekeeper? Maybe they set the system on "auto" and left. They could be that arrogant as we have seen with the Vorlons and Shadows. Or maybe The Hand were Firstones. They got into a war and was "locked away" in some other dimension as G'kar said. There are many possibilities, I mean, maybe the Drakh found out about the story of this ancient enemy and used it to their advantage when wanting to produce a new type of ship (starshapedship). The "Hand" could just be a product of the Drakh propaganda machine taking a lesson from the Minbari in "terror". That could be the reason that we never hear about them in Crusade. We hear about a Drakh war, not a Hand war.
--------------------------------------------
I also wanted to say something about the Liandra. I remember Dulann saying something about a "Junali" style of design. Could the Minbari have been (or whoever built the ship) experimenting with new types of ships?
It seems possible that it was a "concept ship" and was never meant for mass production.
It could also have been a one of a kind ship that was made specifically for one mission, but perhaps performed better than anticipated and kept around as a support ship.
Just like the Whitestar if I recall correctly. There was only one that was used to free the Ranger base from the Centauri blockade of Zagros 7(?). After that encounter with the Shadow vessel and they saw how it performed, who's to say that wasn’t the reason for the mass production.
--------------------------------------------
The only thing I didn’t really think fit was that whole "Rangers never retreat" mythos. Remember when Delenn faced off against the Drakh? She retreated, regrouped, and returned to kill those sons of b*tches. I could understand the council being mad if he jumped in an escape pod and left the crew to die, but saving the crew by retreating sounds tactically wise. Maybe that’s why the Grey Council was 'Cutting" the Rangers earlier on in the Babylon 5 series. They kept losing too many Rangers due to this absurd rule. And cause they didn’t believe that the Shadows would return, but that’s for another topic.
I guess that's my rant. If I've been mistaken about anything in there I have no doubt that y'all will correct me. Like Garibaldi said, Make sure you're right or else you'll get skinned alive.
Peace
ShadoStarr
------------------
"tha infinite depthz of
tha mind iz unimaginable"
- ShadoStarr
[b] Yet no one seems to have a problem with the Rangers punching and kicking their PPG-armed enemies with sticks and fists.
[This message has been edited by samuelk (edited 01-22-2002).][/b][/quote]
Hand to hand combat is somewhat different from someone using karate to shoot a ships weapons systems.
[b] Hand to hand combat is somewhat different from someone using karate to shoot a ships weapons systems.[/b][/quote]
Yes, but there's a discipline there that can be harnessed. Why spend time teaching Rangers how to specialize in a weapons console when you can teach them how to fire weapons using a training they've already learned?
------------------
'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen
Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://www.nialb5.com"]www.NialB5.com[/url].
[b]
Yes, but there's a discipline there that can be harnessed. Why spend time teaching Rangers how to specialize in a weapons console when you can teach them how to fire weapons using a training they've already learned?[/b][/quote]
Since when have rangers gone for the quick easy way. A weapons officer isn't gonna get tired out as quickly sitting at a console as he or she will flaing around. Imagine a long drawn out battle, or even many in quick succesion. Its a moot point anyway. I don't care if a version of it might be a sound idea 100 years down the road. In the movie it just looked aweful.
[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited 01-23-2002).]
[b] Since when have rangers gone for the quick easy way. A weapons officer isn't gonna get tired out as quickly sitting at a console as he or she will flaing around.[/b][/quote]
You yourself just said the Raingers never did anything the easy way.
At the same time, imagine a long, drawn out battle with other people... a Ranger will get tired more quickly in hand-to-hand combat than if he had a PPG.
[quote][b]Imagine a long drawn out battle, or even many in quick succesion. Its a moot point anyway.[/b][/quote]
The Liandra isn't equipped for long, drawn-out battles. It's not a warship; it's only a patrol ship.
[This message has been edited by samuelk (edited 01-23-2002).]
Um...I refer back to hand-to-hand combat.
[b] Um...I refer back to hand-to-hand combat.[/b][/quote]
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/rolleyes.gif[/img]
We just keep going in circles.
And not long after that one side began using "green" in the arguments and the other "purple." And so began the third green-purple war in the history of B5 completing the one. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
More seariously it sounds like we have reached an impass on the holo weapon interface. I am sure JMS will improve it by the time it becomes a series, and the problems after that should hopefully be acceptable under the fiction aspect of sci-fi. At least for me it is plausible enough, maybe not ideal, but reasonable and is different from the standard star trek approach.