Then why not liberate all the people in China? Oh, that's right, because they kicked our asses in Korea. Or maybe because it's more profitable to overllok human rights abuses and trade with them. Hell, it's so profitable that, despite laws against doing so with a communist country, the Bush administration permanently normalized trade with them!
[url="http://www.usembassy-china.org.cn/econ/grants1227.html"]http://www.usembassy-china.org.cn/econ/grants1227.html[/url]
Don't give me crap about liberating anyone. It's a smokescreen for economical and political gains.
------------------
AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of Fate Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"
[quote]Originally posted by AnlaShok:
[b]Then why not liberate all the people in China? Oh, that's right, because they kicked our asses in Korea.
[/b][/quote]
Last I heard the UN won Korea... Of course, history might have changed... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
[quote]Originally posted by AnlaShok:
[b]...And the [i]means[/i] to do so.
C'mon Shrubby-boy, show us all this proof. Or don't you have any?
[/b][/quote]
I'm sorry, are you addressing [i]me[/i], or are you talking to TheEXone? And if me, proof of what?
And, EXone, I understand your feelings, but consider this; [i]in order to become a great power, one must fight a great war, however, in order to stay a great power, one must avoid great wars.[/i] And while it may obvious as to who would win a strict American-Iraqi war, the question is who would win a war against a coalition of Arab-states and possibly North Korea, and (dare I say it) Red China? And then of course you have to take into account how much support we would garner from our so-called "allies" which is already near the breaking point and the aftermath should there be anyone left alive.
If you pay enough attention to my rantings, you will pick up on that. It's a nickname given to him by journalist Molly Ivins.
Why would you guys have proof of Iraq's alleged weapons program?
------------------
AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of Fate Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"
Here's an interesting analysis of the China = most-favored-nation thing from about a year ago. Not saying I necessarily agree with this analysis, but it might be interesting for discussion:
[url="http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2001-12-31-1.html"]http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2001-12-31-1.html[/url]
------------------
We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!
[quote]Originally posted by AnlaShok:
[b]
Don't give me crap about liberating anyone. It's a smokescreen for economical and political gains.
[/b][/quote]
I never said current U.S policy and what I proposed were the same things. I too have doubts about the motivations and agendas if the government, and it is very hypocritical for the U.S to slam Iraq on its human rights violations yet remain completly silent on China's record. However, regardless of the obvious hypocracy of our "leaders" the people of Iraq would still be better of if they could decide their future without Saddam's evil grasp.
Ardmiral Andy, you raise a valid point, going alone into what you basicly described as WW3 would be extremely destructive and it would cost millions of lives. However I never said we had to declare war on all the oppresive regimes in order to be the leader we should be. Their are many avenues open to the U.S before military action is nessesary. For example in the case of China which needs our continued investment to become the world power they want to be, we can say "ok, you want most favored nation status, then give your people freedom of speech". You start with little things like that and move up to organizing non-violent marches and movements, we saw how effective that can be with the overthrow of Milosevich. I think once we put on a strong posture and really support people seeking freedom in their countries we will start to see more and more internal opposition, and more countries will start to turn more open, free, and democratic. It only takes one voice to turn the tide and make a difference. If we become that voice our allies will follow, and we may finaly see a bright future for all the people of this planet,
If we just sit by and do nothing, then countries such as China may continue to grow and expand. Without a transformation in its government and ideals China could start to threaten its neighbors, and be a danger to world peace and stability. I see the senario you envisioned coming about if we do nothing, if we allow the forces of tyranny, fanaticism, and oppresion to prosper without so much as one voice to oppose them.
------------------
We Live as one, We die as one, We will face the darkness as one.
"Understanding is a Three Edged Sword- Your side, Their side, And the Truth...."
Comments
[url="http://www.usembassy-china.org.cn/econ/grants1227.html"]http://www.usembassy-china.org.cn/econ/grants1227.html[/url]
Don't give me crap about liberating anyone. It's a smokescreen for economical and political gains.
------------------
AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of Fate Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"
[b]Then why not liberate all the people in China? Oh, that's right, because they kicked our asses in Korea.
[/b][/quote]
Last I heard the UN won Korea... Of course, history might have changed... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
[b]...And the [i]means[/i] to do so.
C'mon Shrubby-boy, show us all this proof. Or don't you have any?
[/b][/quote]
I'm sorry, are you addressing [i]me[/i], or are you talking to TheEXone? And if me, proof of what?
And, EXone, I understand your feelings, but consider this; [i]in order to become a great power, one must fight a great war, however, in order to stay a great power, one must avoid great wars.[/i] And while it may obvious as to who would win a strict American-Iraqi war, the question is who would win a war against a coalition of Arab-states and possibly North Korea, and (dare I say it) Red China? And then of course you have to take into account how much support we would garner from our so-called "allies" which is already near the breaking point and the aftermath should there be anyone left alive.
If you pay enough attention to my rantings, you will pick up on that. It's a nickname given to him by journalist Molly Ivins.
Why would you guys have proof of Iraq's alleged weapons program?
------------------
AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of Fate Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"
[url="http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2001-12-31-1.html"]http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2001-12-31-1.html[/url]
------------------
We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!
Helped Iraq Build Its WMD
[url="http://www.rense.com/general32/ill.htm"]http://www.rense.com/general32/ill.htm[/url]
Full List Of US Weapons
Suppliers To Iraq
[url="http://www.rense.com/general32/suppe.htm"]http://www.rense.com/general32/suppe.htm[/url]
[b]
Don't give me crap about liberating anyone. It's a smokescreen for economical and political gains.
[/b][/quote]
I never said current U.S policy and what I proposed were the same things. I too have doubts about the motivations and agendas if the government, and it is very hypocritical for the U.S to slam Iraq on its human rights violations yet remain completly silent on China's record. However, regardless of the obvious hypocracy of our "leaders" the people of Iraq would still be better of if they could decide their future without Saddam's evil grasp.
Ardmiral Andy, you raise a valid point, going alone into what you basicly described as WW3 would be extremely destructive and it would cost millions of lives. However I never said we had to declare war on all the oppresive regimes in order to be the leader we should be. Their are many avenues open to the U.S before military action is nessesary. For example in the case of China which needs our continued investment to become the world power they want to be, we can say "ok, you want most favored nation status, then give your people freedom of speech". You start with little things like that and move up to organizing non-violent marches and movements, we saw how effective that can be with the overthrow of Milosevich. I think once we put on a strong posture and really support people seeking freedom in their countries we will start to see more and more internal opposition, and more countries will start to turn more open, free, and democratic. It only takes one voice to turn the tide and make a difference. If we become that voice our allies will follow, and we may finaly see a bright future for all the people of this planet,
If we just sit by and do nothing, then countries such as China may continue to grow and expand. Without a transformation in its government and ideals China could start to threaten its neighbors, and be a danger to world peace and stability. I see the senario you envisioned coming about if we do nothing, if we allow the forces of tyranny, fanaticism, and oppresion to prosper without so much as one voice to oppose them.
------------------
We Live as one, We die as one, We will face the darkness as one.
"Understanding is a Three Edged Sword- Your side, Their side, And the Truth...."