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How did Iraq get its weapons? We sold them
Randy
Master Storyteller
in Zocalo v2.0
[url="http://www.sundayherald.com/27572"]http://www.sundayherald.com/27572[/url]
Comments
Didn't the US train Osama as well?
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[url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Never eat anything bigger than your own head.[/url]
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
We sold them weapons to use against Iran, no?
Then they attacked Iran, so we attacked them.
It's a fun, fun world.
Yes, we trained and financed Bin Laden when he was in the Mujahaddin fighting the USSR in Afghanistan. He had embraced western culture with a passion, fully enjoying the fruits of our society and technology. I've seen a picture of him in the 70s wearing bell-bottoms.
We frequently do stuff like this, and been bitten on the ass for it almost every time. The problem with supporting people like Bin Laden, Hussein, etc. is that they will support you only until their goals have been met. After that, they will turn on their previous supporters like a pack of rabid wolves.
"Is our children learning?"
Are our leaders learning?
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AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of Fate Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"
If only we'd spend the money on our public services instead [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/frown.gif[/img]
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We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!
[b]What I fail to see is how this information, that Iraq's weapons ability comes in part from us, is supposed to be an argument against going after Saddam. If he did get his weapons from us, then doesn't that just make it more our responsibility to remove them from him for being irresponsible with them?
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That is a good point. Yes, I realize we trained Osama, and everyone always comes back to bite the hand that feeds it.
[b]What I fail to see is how this information, that Iraq's weapons ability comes in part from us, is supposed to be an argument against going after Saddam. If he did get his weapons from us, then doesn't that just make it more our responsibility to remove them from him for being irresponsible with them?
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I agree. Interesting point.
We know North Korea has nukes, they've confessed to it. What makes Iraq such a desirable target when another nation has confessed to doing what we claim to be fixing in Iraq? And how about the newly disovered nuclear facilities in Iran?
Who do we go after next?!?
Who trained Iraq is not an argument about going in and disarming him, but an argument to stop doing that with other countries.
Say Iraq attacks Isreal. Who do you think would win?
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AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of Fate Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"
[b]What evidence do we really have that he has these weapons? Bush has declined to show any evidence to the UN at all. Why?
We know North Korea has nukes, they've confessed to it. What makes Iraq such a desirable target when another nation has confessed to doing what we claim to be fixing in Iraq? And how about the newly disovered nuclear facilities in Iran?
Who do we go after next?!?
Who trained Iraq is not an argument about going in and disarming him, but an argument to stop doing that with other countries.
Say Iraq attacks Isreal. Who do you think would win?
[/b][/quote]
I wouldn't say that Bush has declined to provide any evidence. I think something will have to be done about N. Korea, but they could disarm themselves (unlikely, but a possiblity with all the international pressure from Japan, ect). The U.S. is going after Iraq because Sadamm has proven that he cannot be allowed to hold weapons. He is unstable and could quite easily use them.
As for your last question, that is simple. Iraq would dissapear. And so would the rest of the mideast. (not too big a loss) [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] -that [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] means I am joking before you try to draw and quarter me...
You know how everybody claims that we cut of medical supplies to Iraq and was bitching about that? all of the stuff actualy listed in the article that was provided by the US has a legitimate use in biological research.. The whole story on the VX is that many components for VX are also dual use. We provide Anthrax to alot of nations, its a MAJOR cattle disease people and is fairly damn common, we sent some to Afghanistan to perserve cattle herds.
I say we should have denied these things to the Iraqi's problem is, the world would then point fingers at us for deying Iraq medical supplies. The truth is most anything that is used in a medical setting to heal you, chemical wise, can also be used to kill you somehow. And anti viral and bacterial research require access to disease samples
What I am waiting for is the major fall out for where MOST of the weapons really did come from.. And thats going to land on France and Germany.
I think we put the wrong people in the insane asylems!
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[b]May You Live Forever, and The Last Voice You Hear, Be Mine! [/b]
One thing that strikes me as weird because I haven't heard anyone speak of it for a long time. Some years back, during or after the Gulf War, the CIA (as far as I recall) had allied themselves with hundreds of Iraqi deserters(?) as well as Kuwaits who together were planning to throw off Saddam Hussein. They all worked together for a year for one single strike to remove Hussein from his reign and the day before they stroke the CIA bailed out, and the rest of Iraqi and Kuwaits has been working on it for so long but could not carry it through without US help (air support amongst other things) and they were too far to just stop so they carried it through and they all got slaughtered when they tried to pull it off.
As far as I recall didn't the Soviet deliver the weapons to Afghanistan that were used later against the Soviet?
These things happen all the time. It's always a grey zone.
However, returning to the present, it is completely silly to suddenly start an attack against Iraq because they are convinced they have weapons of massive destruction. I'm sure they have! One way or the other. But it doesn't justify starting a way because then you'd have to use that argument at any other country who also got weapons of mass destruction..and *hehe* that aren't a few countries we're talking about here. I would however agree that should anyone be brought down then Iraq would be a good choice but I do not commend the argument.
North Korea has weapons of mass destruction (hereunder nuclear weapons), India has them, Russia has them, I think Pakistan also has them. Some European countries also have them as far as I recall. China too. Japan I don't recall but I could imagine so. Despite the insane rule in North Korea they haven't done anything that would warrant a millitary intervention. If things are to be cleaned out way is not the way to go about it. Especially when speaking of Iraq other countries are supporting Iraq politically or religiously. And the religion factor is a pivotal point in the growing conflict down there. In the major part of the Middle East countries religion is dominating the freedom of men and women to where they have to shut up and follow the rules in order to avoid either pain or death. Other extreme fundamentalist groups and factions interperet lines in the coran (sp?) to favour the annihilation of non muslims. And a lot of them don't hide one of the goals is to destroy the western countries. In there lies another aspect in the war that is brewing in our world today. With Israel, Palestina and Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan in the spotlight shifting from day to day we have to be careful only one pair of feet are stepped on. And BTW wasn't the Saudi Arabian government accused recently of fonding the attack at 9/11? Or was it just Al-Queda in general?
Ok, I think I threw myself out in several topics here. I'll climb back to my cave and watch my CTS getting better [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/icons/icon20.gif[/img]
And hey remember this! During World War II when Brittish and German soldiers were fighting each other in the trenches, on Christmas Eve both sides agreed to stop the war. Both sides arranged a soccer match on the 24th of December. They spent Christmas Eve together and everything went as peacefully as it could. The next day they lay in the trenches killing each other off once more.
But at the end of the day, both sides loved Christmas enough to stop a war, if only for a day.
[img]http://www.publicmuseum.oshkosh.net/Cyber_Exhibits/1940/1940.jpg[/img]
Oh, merry Christmas guys [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
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Thomas Banner
[url="http://www.3dfrontier.com/~banner/"]Diverse 3D[/url]
[url="http://www.spacecadet.dk/"]Animator - Space Cadet[/url]
[This message has been edited by Banner (edited 12-15-2002).]
Have a Merry Christmas!
I've come to realize that the reason so much bitterness exists against the U.S in the world, is not because people are jealous, or because they simply don't like us, its because when it comes to foreign policy we only seem to fight for the ideals we cherish when it directly affects us, and whats worse we turn our backs on those ideals when its seems easier to support a dictator who kisses our ass, than to deal with people who want freedom and democracy but are not strong enough to serve our interests. Some would use that as a reason for us to pull back from the world, to stop interfering, but the answer is not running away, the answer is standing up and fighting for what we believe.
Its time we stop dealing with leaders we ourselves would never tolerate in the western world, going into Iraq should not just be about covering our buts from potential WMDs, it should be about us assuming the responsibility that comes with the great power we have been granted.
If we would just lead the cause for freedom, if we decided today to make to concentrated effort to correct our mistakes,if we would help give people who know only opression a taste of what it means to be relatively free, then maybe all of those people who are drawn to terrorism, violence and hatred, whould instead join us in common cause to bring freedom to all humanity.
We should not carry the burden alone, but as a country that prides itself on its love of freedom above all else, we can not continue a foreign policy that lacks vision, and is often hypocritical in a world where the enemies of all we hold dear feed on the very caos, desperation, and hate created by our actions in the world.
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We Live as one, We die as one, We will face the darkness as one.
"Understanding is a Three Edged Sword- Your side, Their side, And the Truth...."
While I don't remember it being proven that Osama was trained by the CIA, it is possible if he was associated with Afghan resistance factions we supplied to fight the Soviets.
Aiding Saddam in the '80s was different then the Soviets trying to take over all of Afghanistan. Whereas, the Reds wanted more land integrated into Russia, we gave Saddam weapons to fight our mutual enemy at the time which was Iran (you'll remember the '79 hostage situation at our embassy in Teheran).
[quote]
It was the US that helped to train and equip the Mujaheddin back in the 1980s, as they waged their war against the invading Soviet Union.
One of the fighters who benefited from such US largesse was an obscure volunteer from Saudi Arabia with close links to its royal family - Osama bin Laden.
In 1986 the CIA even helped him build an underground camp at Khost, where he was to train recruits from across the Islamic world in the business of guerrilla warfare.
Twelve years later, the Americans bombed the same camp after holding bin Laden responsible for the devastating US embassy bombings in east Africa.
Some 34 people were killed in the Khost attack. Bin Laden left the camp an hour earlier.
By this stage, American policy had come full circle. The cold war over, a new generation of Mujaheddin leaders had sprung up - the Taliban.
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[url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,397911,00.html"]http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,397911,00.html[/url]
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AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of Fate Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"
But let's not kid ourselves. U.S. foreign policy towards Afghanistan in the '80s did not ignite the present day resentment of Americans by al-Qaeda and the majority of Arabic peoples. That didn't start until after the Gulf War.
[This message has been edited by Admiral Andy (edited 12-16-2002).]
This isn't about religion or freedom, it's about power. On both sides.
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AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of Fate Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"
TheEXone: That was very well written and very true. The idea of putting away a dictator and saving the world is a beautiful idea but unfortunately I don't believe the US government to have a pure enough heart when it comes to politics, foreign affairs and the likes. For instance, after US troops entered and dealt with Afghanistan this past year the production of opium in Afghanistan has never been higher. Makes you wonder. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/frown.gif[/img]
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Thomas Banner
[url="http://www.3dfrontier.com/~banner/"]Diverse 3D[/url]
[url="http://www.spacecadet.dk/"]Animator - Space Cadet[/url]
Even if our leaders are motivated by a desire to do good, without a clear vision in foreign policy, a strong effort to improve the lives of people in despotic countries, and a move to correct the mistakes of the past, problems such as instability and terrorism will continue to haunt us all.
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We Live as one, We die as one, We will face the darkness as one.
"Understanding is a Three Edged Sword- Your side, Their side, And the Truth...."
[b]rhett: Sorry, you're right. Allnighters remove some of my braincells as of late. *tired*
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No problem... That is the way I get when I post here late at night. I wake up, look at what I wrote, and go what the hell? [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
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Thomas Banner
[url="http://www.3dfrontier.com/~banner/"]Diverse 3D[/url]
[url="http://www.spacecadet.dk/"]Animator - Space Cadet[/url]
C'mon Shrubby-boy, show us all this proof. Or don't you have any?
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AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of Fate Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"
[b]Going around slaying the dragons of the world is a sure way to piss everyone else off. Good foreign policy dictates that you only slay the dragons that are bent on your demise and possess the will to do so.[/b][/quote]
But do you just stand by and let the dragons kill and terrorize people when you have the power to stop them?
I never proposed that the U.S go around acting like some knight on a white horse trying to save everyone, what I suggest is that it simply take the lead in a global effort to give people living in deperate conditions and under oppresive regimes a chance to build for themselves a future free from tyranny.
The pain and the resentment these regimes create in their people is often directed at the West and America whom the people see as either not carring or directly responsile for keeping the regime in power. Terrorists use this resntment to incite hatred and acts of terrorism, while the regimes themselves use it as a scapegoat to stay im power while they openly defy international law, and continue their power driven agendas unopposed. Ultimatley these despots end up hurting us either directly or through the instability they cause.
Sure if we take a stand against tyranny many will get pissed off, and it sure as hell wont be easy, but i guess thats where courage and determination comes in. I was always taught that if I had the power to help someone in need then it was my responsibility as man of honor to do so. If the idea of honor doesn't move you, think about the millions of lives that wouldn't have been lost of if we had taken a stand against Hitler before he could threaten the entire world. I guess thats the thing about dictators , they lust for power and control so much that it becomes like a drung, soon the high they get from controling their own people wears off and they look beyond their borders, after that no amount of power will be enough.
Fortunately every time its their own lust for power that unltimately does them in, what varies is how many people they take with them, how much destruction they cause on their march to hell. That part is up to us, the ones with the means to stand up stop them before too many pay the price.
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We Live as one, We die as one, We will face the darkness as one.
"Understanding is a Three Edged Sword- Your side, Their side, And the Truth...."