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Chechen Insurgency
Faylorn
Elite Ranger
in Zocalo v2.0
[url="http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml?type=topnews&StoryID=1623834"]http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml?type=topnews&StoryID=1623834[/url]
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[url="http://www.zmag.org"][i]Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.[/i][/url]
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
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[url="http://www.zmag.org"][i]Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.[/i][/url]
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
Comments
I'm hoping it can be resolved peaceably - I don't know what policy they have on this kind of action, but I'd imagine Putin's government would take a tough stance; worrying.
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[url="http://www.thehungersite.com"]I will extol thee, my God, O king; and I will bless thy name for ever and ever." -Psalms 145:1[/url]
[url="http://www.firstones.com"]Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope... The death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender." -G'Kar, Z'ha'Dum[/url]
[url="http://www.members.tripod.com/mtusa"]Untitled 04-29-01[/url] [url="http://www.firstones.com"]Respect my Firstone status.[/url]
Have a look here - [url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2357729.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2357729.stm[/url]
I'm still hopeful someone will find a way to end this situation peacefully, but this is grim news indeed.
Congratulations. You've just removed any sympathy I might have had for your cause before this.
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We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!
[b]Hopefully the Russians can find a way to kill all those terrorists without losing the hostages. That way they can screw the peaceful solutions and give them what they deserve.
[/b][/quote]
One could very well make that case for Third World peoples (hostages) and the American tax payer (employer of terrorists at the very least); in fact, many do. Do unto others friend. People don't disgrace themselves like this without *GOOD* 'cause. Toodles!
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[url="http://www.zmag.org"][i]Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.[/i][/url]
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 10-24-2002).]
[b]I'm sure they're not representative of their entire cause - still, Bekenn, do you beleive in national self-determination?
[/b][/quote]
Actually, it really depends on how their "compatriots" in Chechnya react to this. Has any news been posted on that?
Moreover, if this gamble were to actually succeed, how would these people be seen by the rest of Chechnya? Terrorists, or heroes?
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We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!
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[url="http://www.zmag.org"][i]Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.[/i][/url]
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 10-25-2002).]
[b] One could very well make that case for Third World peoples (hostages) and the American tax payer (employer of terrorists at the very least); in fact, many do. Do unto others friend. People don't disgrace themselves like this without *GOOD* 'cause. Toodles!
[/b][/quote]
We hold third world countries hostage? Is that what you're saying? (if not, don't read on) So, becasue of our multi-national corporations, which improve conditions in thrid world countries, even if just a little, we have taken them hostage? Well, if that's the case, and they want to do unto us, I'd have no problem with one of their corporations trying to build a factory in the USA.
Anyway, this little sentence from a Fox News article caught my eye:
"The foreign hostages include three Americans, as well as Britons, Dutch, Australians, Austrians and Germans."
I don't care what their cause is now. If the Russians exterminate them all, well, it was for a good cause. Can anyone argue against that?
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[url="http://www.thehungersite.com"]I will extol thee, my God, O king; and I will bless thy name for ever and ever." -Psalms 145:1[/url]
[url="http://www.firstones.com"]Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope... The death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender." -G'Kar, Z'ha'Dum[/url]
[url="http://www.members.tripod.com/mtusa"]Untitled 04-29-01[/url] [url="http://www.firstones.com"]Respect my Firstone status.[/url]
[This message has been edited by MT (edited 10-25-2002).]
there is more to blame then the US tax payer, its just its so [i]fashionable [/i]
This chechyan thing is 200 years old, Chechnya was incorporated into russia what 1840? if we go with the national self determinism in areas where the concept of their being a "national" group of people is vague, does that mean Idaho gets to succdee tomorrow?
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We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!
P.S. I just heard on the news that there has been an explosion and gunfire from the theatre. Authorities moving in??
[MT]We hold third world countries hostage? Is that what you're saying? (if not, don't read on) So, becasue of our multi-national corporations, which improve conditions in thrid world countries, even if just a little, we have taken them hostage? Well, if that's the case, and they want to do unto us, I'd have no problem with one of their corporations trying to build a factory in the USA.[/MT]
The U.S. installs and maintains corrupt dictatorships. The U.S., through the IMF, loans money invested into the U.S. toward these countries. The corrupt dictators take the money for themselves and leave their population with the bill. Their population don't have a chance of paying it but the American tax payer does...
Furthermore, [i]U.S.[/i] multinational corporations -- are you thinking clearly? The reason multitnational corporations are international is because they don't belong to any one country and can shift base. Therefore, as much as the U.S. [i]has[/i] multinational corporations in the Third World, the Third World [i]has[/i] multinational corporations in the U.S. and we all know how that works. U.S. unemployment is rising in the U.S., did you know that?
[MT]Anyway, this little sentence from a Fox News article caught my eye:
"The foreign hostages include three Americans, as well as Britons, Dutch, Australians, Austrians and Germans."
I don't care what their cause is now. If the Russians exterminate them all, well, it was for a good cause. Can anyone argue against that?[/MT]
If you mean the Chechen freedom fighters/terrorists, sure. What they're doing is evil. However, the Chechen people should, at the very least, not have to face further Russian oppression.
[Tyvar]Sorry Faylorn, I still dont by the reasoning, you have at most a century of US involvement overseas and now all the ills of the world are our fault?
there is more to blame then the US tax payer, its just its so fashionable[/MT]
I've already stated my views on the tax payer. Furthermore, I never said the U.S. is entirely responsible, but rather responsible for increasing the problems. I'd never say an empire comes in and finds everything utopian before mucking it up. That would be dumb.
[Tyvar]This chechyan thing is 200 years old, Chechnya was incorporated into russia what 1840? if we go with the national self determinism in areas where the concept of their being a "national" group of people is vague, does that mean Idaho gets to succdee tomorrow?[/Tyvar]
If the population of Idaho is regularly attacked and atrocities are committed by the U.S. military then it's time to grant Idaho self-determination.
[Bekenn]Sorry, Faylorn, I don't buy your stories of us committing atrocities in Afghanistan. Were there mistakes? Yes. Were many civilians killed as a result of those mistakes? Yes. But, as stated, they were mistakes, and we don't celebrate them. Nobody sane here cheered at news of Afghan civilian casualties; we're sorry it happened. On the other hand, if the compatriots of these hostage-takers actually cheer on their actions, then I have no sympathy for them.[/Bekenn]
Most American people think of Afghanistan as a success do they not? As I've already stated the tax payer does not know probably won't know how hundreds of thousands died and froze to death as part of the bombing campaign, not mentioning the >6000 killed directly at lowest estimates. No one cheers or decries what they don't know but Afghanistan is generally known as a success in the American conscienceness even though war lords are running rampant and neither Europe or the U.S. has coughed up its promised aid to the besieged Karzai government. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what the hell's the difference to the person on the ground whether or not you Americans know this. The tax payer celebrates the overall albeit imaginary success of Afghanistan.
The Chechens are being repressed; in the worst case scenario, what the terrorists could potentially do in that theatre has been afflicted many times past on the Chechens. It's wrong and it's evil but people shouldn't have to face continued repression because of that, do you not agree?
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[url="http://www.zmag.org"][i]Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.[/i][/url]
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[b]Faylorn, dont post that kind of shit here. We dont need a flame war. Contrary to popular belief (mainly made by people who want to be in the "in crowd" and hate us Americans, who BTW, were isolationists for the most part untill WWII) Americans can actually be very smart. People who think we are all idiots who say "**** the world" need to learn something about history. 99.9% of Americans abhor terrorism and the rest of that ilk. And I mean no offence, so if I misunderstood you, please forgive me. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
P.S. I just heard on the news that there has been an explosion and gunfire from the theatre. Authorities moving in??[/b][/quote]
What shit? [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/confused.gif[/img] And I'm not part of that crowd so you're forgiven. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
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[url="http://www.zmag.org"][i]Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.[/i][/url]
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
How did Chechens taking innocent and helpless men, women and children become an Anti-American bashfest?
Maybe I'm reading you wrong here, but it sounds to me that you're actually giving legitamcy to their actions?!? How? Two wrongs make a right, eh? So they have been wronged and oppressed, it gives them a good reason to storm a theatre with assualt weapons and demand anything their little hearts desire? It doesn't work that way, and if you think so, you're just as naive and stupid as they are. Do they honestly think the Russian goverment will give them what they want? No. They won't.
If they want to be heard there is only one right way, negotiation. Russians won't listen? Call Jimmy Carter. Heck, call Bill Clinton. Don't take hundreds of helpless and defenseless people hostage and kill them for your cause. You'll get no sympathy from the world if you do that. Isn't that obvious?
>> If the population of Idaho is regularly attacked and atrocities are committed by the U.S. military then it's time to grant Idaho self-determination. <<
What atrocities? To my knowledge, the US never got involved in the Chechnen conflict. What do they have to do with this and why did you bring it up?
>> Most American people think of Afghanistan as a success do they not? As I've already stated the tax payer does not know probably won't know how hundreds of thousands died and froze to death as part of the bombing campaign, not mentioning the >6000 killed directly at lowest estimates. <<
Do you have anything to backup this statement? I have never heard anything even remotely similar to what you have here. Pulling 'factual' statistics out of your head is not a good way to legitamitize you case. Just because I'm American (and dam proud of it) doesn't mean I don't know what is going on. If you haven't noticed, the internet in INTERNATIONAL and while the US goverment and/or US media might not be willing to show us these 'facts', I can go elsewhere for my research.
>> No one cheers or decries what they don't know but Afghanistan is generally known as a success in the American conscienceness even though war lords are running rampant and neither Europe or the U.S. has coughed up its promised aid to the besieged Karzai government. <<
We did what we went there to do, did we not? We destroyed one of the most repressive regimes in the world and scattered Al-Qeida like little piss-ants that they are. (I suppose you are going to defend Al-Qeida's reasoning for their terror attacks now, eh?) Do you know how much funding the US and her allies have given the Karzai govt? Show me the FACTS! Back it up! If I'm such a naive American, enlighten me!
>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but what the hell's the difference to the person on the ground whether or not you Americans know this. The tax payer celebrates the overall albeit imaginary success of Afghanistan. <<
Let me ask you, are you American? Are you IN America? Do you know what we celebrate? Do you know what my family celebrates? Or the families on my street? I don't think you do and it shows. I pay taxes (a heck of alot of them too!), I know our job is not done in Afganistan, but we've done a hell of alot more there than any other country in the world was willing to. I celebrate the FACT that we got SOME of the job done and this country is in it for the long haul. Besides some European countries, whoelse is there to help us? There are going to be mistakes and accidents, but that's life. If you want to come in here and start whipping up a frenzy saying that the US taxpayer is financing the US govt's will to commit atrocities in foriegn lands WITHOUT the FACTS, then you better put your tail between your legs and crawl back under the WATERCOOLER you came from!
=-Rigs-=
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"Now, we gave you a promise and we are bound by that promise and damn you for asking for it! And damn me for agreeing to it! And damn all of us to hell, because that's exactly where we're going! We talked about peace. You didn't want peace. We talked about cooperation. You didn't want cooperation. You want war! Is that it? You want a war? Well you've got a WAR!"
- John Sheridan, Babylon 5
[b]Most American people think of Afghanistan as a success do they not?[/b][/quote]
Overall, probably yes.
[quote][b]As I've already stated the tax payer does not know probably won't know how hundreds of thousands died and froze to death as part of the bombing campaign, not mentioning the >6000 killed directly at lowest estimates.[/b][/quote]
Well, I've heard the >6000 figure before; can't recall where, but it seems plausible. I'm willing to believe it for now. The "hundreds of thousands" figure, on the other hand, is outright fallacy. What's your source on that?
[quote][b]No one cheers or decries what they don't know but Afghanistan is generally known as a success in the American conscienceness even though war lords are running rampant and neither Europe or the U.S. has coughed up its promised aid to the besieged Karzai government.[/b][/quote]
Actually, to my knowledge, the US [i]has[/i] given all the monetary aid it promised. What's lacking right now are Peacekeeping troops and humanitarian assistance, mostly from Europe.
But you're right, we haven't done all that we should over there. It's an ongoing operation. We're still working on it.
[quote][b]Correct me if I'm wrong, but what the hell's the difference to the person on the ground whether or not you Americans know this. The tax payer celebrates the overall albeit imaginary success of Afghanistan.[/b][/quote]
The difference is that we are, as you keep saying, tax payers. We fund everything that the US does over there, and I don't believe you have legitimate grounds to say that the down sides of our involvement there outweigh the up sides. We have removed a repressive, tyrannical government that was not operating in the best interests of its citizens, and last I checked, the Afghanistan civilians were happy with our presence there. They're enjoying more personal freedoms and the women at least have a generally higher quality of life. You keep mentioning the numbers -- number of people dead or wounded, number of dollars left unpaid -- but you haven't said much about the qualitative benefits of our operations there. What are your feelings with regards to those?
Secondly, our presence in Afghanistan initially had little to do with either helping or hindering the Afghan civilians. We went there with a purpose in mind: root out those responsible for the attacks on our soil, on our civilians, and nothing was going to stop us from doing that. We succeeded, and that is where the general sense of success in Afghanistan is coming from. Not from the foreign outreach/aid programs.
[quote][b]The Chechens are being repressed; in the worst case scenario, what the terrorists could potentially do in that theatre has been afflicted many times past on the Chechens. It's wrong and it's evil but people shouldn't have to face continued repression because of that, do you not agree?[/b][/quote]
Unfortunately, I know practically nothing about the situation in Chechnya. I don't know the history, I don't know what's being done now, and I don't know what plans are for the future. All I do know is that there is a group of people committing evil acts in the name of the Chechnyans, and if Russia pulls its forces out now, all that will be accomplished is that the Chechnyans will have learned that terrorism works as an effective and legitimate bargaining tool. And that's unacceptable.
Furthermore, I'm willing to bet Putin's thinking the exact same thing. Unless the Chechnyans act to divorce themselves from this terrorist group, peace in Chechnya will remain impossible until this situation is over.
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We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!
[url="http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml?type=topnews&StoryID=1636715"]http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml?type=topnews&StoryID=1636715[/url]
Respond to you guys tomorrow or something...
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[url="http://www.zmag.org"][i]Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.[/i][/url]
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
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We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!
How did Chechens taking innocent and helpless men, women and children become an Anti-American bashfest?[/Rigs]
This right here is the problem with the rest of your post. A lot of what I said has been skewed in your defensive interpretation and your "hypothesizing" is antagonistic. Cool down and please read what I say carefully. There's only so much time in the day and I don't want to spend it reiterating on account of sloppy reading.
[Rigs]Maybe I'm reading you wrong here, but it sounds to me that you're actually giving legitamcy to their actions?!? How? Two wrongs make a right, eh? So they have been wronged and oppressed, it gives them a good reason to storm a theatre with assualt weapons and demand anything their little hearts desire? It doesn't work that way, and if you think so, you're just as naive and stupid as they are. Do they honestly think the Russian goverment will give them what they want? No. They won't.[/Rigs]
Small scale terrorist operations (that is not terrorism of the state) are meant to raise political awareness; that is what 911 was about. Both succeeded to some degree.
[Rigs]If they want to be heard there is only one right way, negotiation. Russians won't listen? Call Jimmy Carter. Heck, call Bill Clinton. Don't take hundreds of helpless and defenseless people hostage and kill them for your cause. You'll get no sympathy from the world if you do that. Isn't that obvious?[/Rigs]
Negotiation? Don't you think they've tried? More importantly, do you even think that'll work? Come on, real estate isn't free and no state gives it up without a fight. Furthermore, it DOES get foreign sympathy for the cause BUT NOT for the terrorists that get slain.
>> If the population of Idaho is regularly attacked and atrocities are committed by the U.S. military then it's time to grant Idaho self-determination. <<
[Rigs]What atrocities? To my knowledge, the US never got involved in the Chechnen conflict. What do they have to do with this and why did you bring it up?[/Rigs]
You misunderstand what I was trying to say. Read that portion over again.
[Rigs]Do you have anything to backup this statement? I have never heard anything even remotely similar to what you have here. Pulling 'factual' statistics out of your head is not a good way to legitamitize you case. Just because I'm American (and dam proud of it) doesn't mean I don't know what is going on. If you haven't noticed, the internet in INTERNATIONAL and while the US goverment and/or US media might not be willing to show us these 'facts', I can go elsewhere for my research.[/Rigs]
You can go to the U.N., Red Cross or Zmag and, I think, Oxfam and Christian Science Monitor. Good hunting.
[Rigs]We did what we went there to do, did we not? We destroyed one of the most repressive regimes in the world and scattered Al-Qeida like little piss-ants that they are. (I suppose you are going to defend Al-Qeida's reasoning for their terror attacks now, eh?) Do you know how much funding the US and her allies have given the Karzai govt? Show me the FACTS! Back it up! If I'm such a naive American, enlighten me![/Rigs]
Scattered Al Qaeda like little piss ants? The widespread assertion, especially among terrorist experts, is that Al Qaeda is a network of networks. In other words, a blow to them is hardly a blow to terrorism. Terrorist networks are very modular and have much reduncy. Furthermore, why would I legitimize Al Qaeda atrocities if I condemn everyone elses?
Afghanistan may yet thrive as a result of international "support", including American, but I do not think the American role is as you imagine. Furthermore, the blow to terrorism America has incurred is marginal.
[Rigs]Let me ask you, are you American? Are you IN America? Do you know what we celebrate? Do you know what my family celebrates? Or the families on my street? I don't think you do and it shows. I pay taxes (a heck of alot of them too!), I know our job is not done in Afganistan, but we've done a hell of alot more there than any other country in the world was willing to. I celebrate the FACT that we got SOME of the job done and this country is in it for the long haul. Besides some European countries, whoelse is there to help us? There are going to be mistakes and accidents, but that's life. If you want to come in here and start whipping up a frenzy saying that the US taxpayer is financing the US govt's will to commit atrocities in foriegn lands WITHOUT the FACTS, then you better put your tail between your legs and crawl back under the WATERCOOLER you came from!
=-Rigs-=[/Rigs]
Why do I need to be American to know the views of one? Why can't I watch the news or come here? Furthermore, America has not "done a hell of alot more there" or maybe it has if that phrase is read cynically.
Here's the evidence you requested:
I. Direct bombardment
[url="http://www.zmag.org/herold.htm"]Herold, 12/??/2001[/url]
[url="http://www.zmag.org/content/ForeignPolicy/TraynorAfghans.cfm"]The Guardian, 02/12/2002[/url]
[url="http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020211&s=zinn"]The Nation, 02/24/2002[/url]
[url="http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=11&ItemID=2082"]Pilger, 07/07/2002[/url]
II. Starvation
IIA.Before or During Winter
[url="http://www.zmag.org/lakdawalalec.htm"]Chomsky, 12/30/2002[/url]
IIB. After Winter and Media Suppression
[url="http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=40&ItemID=1908"]Chomsky, 02/19/2002[/url]
[url="http://www.zmag.org/content/MainstreamMedia/CromEdwardsMedia.cfm"]Cromwell and Edwards, 02/20/2002[/url]
IIIA. International Support
[url="http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=40&ItemID=1907"]The Guardian, 05/22/2002[/url]
IIIB. Afghanistan Future
[url="http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=40&ItemID=1902"]BBC World News, 03/02/2002[/url]
Here's additional but not immediately pertinent info:
IV. Criminals at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba
[url="http://www.zmag.org/content/TerrorWar/amnesty_pow-guantanamo-appeal.cfm"]Amnesty International, 01/15/2002[/url]
[url="http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=40&ItemID=1922"]The New Statesman, 01/29/2002[/url]
Reply more tomorrow.
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[url="http://www.zmag.org"][i]Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.[/i][/url]
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 10-27-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 10-27-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 10-27-2002).]
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Talk is silver, but violence is gold.
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[url="http://www.zmag.org"][i]Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.[/i][/url]
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[b]
Small scale terrorist operations (that is not terrorism of the state) are meant to raise political awareness; that is what 911 was about. Both succeeded to some degree.[/b]
[/quote]
I don't think that you can boil down 9-11 to just raising political awareness. It was the slaughter of thousands of people. I am sick of arguing with Anti-American people. It is so friggin hopeless. We are the devil either way. Whatever.
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We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!
But you're right, we haven't done all that we should over there. It's an ongoing operation. We're still working on it.[/Bekenn]
You are partly right. An Afghan interviewed on the BBC (I think it was the foreign minister) said most of the pledged money has not been given to the government. This is true. It has been given to warlords, relief agencies and to enhancing security. Here is more:
CNN
Hundreds of families of Afghans killed by errant bombs are demanding compensation for the loss of their loved ones, and the U.S. government has made some payments. Apart from their outrage at U.S. mistakes, Afghan civilians are frustrated by the plodding pace of the international relief effort. Washington has committed $280 million to Afghanistan this year--more than any other donor country--but aside from the yellow food packets dropped by allied warplanes during the war, ordinary Afghans have seen few tangible signs of the anticipated U.S. assistance. Because the Pentagon wants to maintain the combat readiness of American forces in order to launch search-and-destroy missions against remnant enemy targets, U.S. soldiers don't mix much with the civilian population. The U.S. has devoted just $16 million over two years to civilian projects such as school reconstruction and well digging, and most American troops are instructed to stay at the large U.S. bases rather than venture into Afghan villages.
Guardian
A Guardian journalist called James Meek spent several days recently in the company of one of the so-called warlords who have been installed in power through force of US bombing.
`General' Abdul Basir, 35, hails from the Salang Valley but now controls the western part of the Afghan capital, Kabul. He told Meek he had inherited 200 warehouses full of weaponry from the fleeing Taliban, a boast which was impossible to verify.
Basir proved a generous host, ordering mutton soup to be served to the visiting foreign journalist as he sat in his front garden on a sofa parked rather incongruously between two elderly Russian T-54 tanks. He evinced no political ideas whatsoever, merely indicating that he would "go back to the Salang" if he was adequately compensated.
He boasted to Meek that he had led a student uprising against the Russian occupiers during his tenth year at an elite lycee (secondary school) in Kabul, and that he favoured high standards of public education and good social services.
Meek noticed during his period with Basir that he always directed his subordinates to sign off important documents, asking his personal assistant to relate the contents of any pressing missives to him. Later the journalist was told by his interpreter that the `warlord' was wholly illiterate, unable even to sign his own name in writing. The story about the student revolt in the lyce was a total fabrication: Basir had never spent a day in school.
Rather, he had helped the Islamic fundamentalists (the mujahedin who had preceded the Taliban) to burn down schools and execute teachers during the Russian occupation, when "forced literacy" programmes were associated with the Soviet oppressors.
It is into the hands of such men that George `Dubya' Bush now consigns the West's $5 billion and the future of Afghanistan.
Reuters:
At the same time Abdullah has pushed hard for greater international aid to rebuild an economy and infrastructure shattered by decades of conflict.
He said last month Afghanistan needed $20 billion over the next five years to rebuild, compared with pledges of $4.5 billion.
Afghans are becoming increasingly frustrated at the lack of tangible results from hundreds of millions of dollars in aid. The U.S. aid contribution is dwarfed by the billions of dollars it has spent on its military campaign since late 2001.
[Bekenn]The difference is that we are, as you keep saying, tax payers. We fund everything that the US does over there, and I don't believe you have legitimate grounds to say that the down sides of our involvement there outweigh the up sides. We have removed a repressive, tyrannical government that was not operating in the best interests of its citizens, and last I checked, the Afghanistan civilians were happy with our presence there. They're enjoying more personal freedoms and the women at least have a generally higher quality of life. You keep mentioning the numbers -- number of people dead or wounded, number of dollars left unpaid -- but you haven't said much about the qualitative benefits of our operations there. What are your feelings with regards to those?
Secondly, our presence in Afghanistan initially had little to do with either helping or hindering the Afghan civilians. We went there with a purpose in mind: root out those responsible for the attacks on our soil, on our civilians, and nothing was going to stop us from doing that. We succeeded, and that is where the general sense of success in Afghanistan is coming from. Not from the foreign outreach/aid programs.[/Bekenn]
You are arguing the ends justify the means. Along the way there have been alternatives, less atrocious means, to accomplished the task. The net effect will only be known in the future. However, the popular Afghan consensus is not as you describe:
John Pilger
FOR all the cosmetic changes in Kabul, the capital, women still dare not go unveiled. "The Taliban used to hang the victim's body in public for four days," quipped the new American-installed regime's Minister of Justice. "We will only hang the body for a short time, say fifteen minutes, after a public execution."
[url="http://www.zmag.org/content/TerrorWar/rawa_statement.cfm"]RAWA[/url]
Robert Fisk (a journalist of the Independent)
They started by shaking hands. We said "Salaam aleikum" – peace be upon you – then the first pebbles flew past my face. A small boy tried to grab my bag. Then another. Then someone punched me in the back. Then young men broke my glasses, began smashing stones into my face and head. I couldn't see for the blood pouring down my forehead and swamping my eyes. And even then, I understood. I couldn't blame them for what they were doing. In fact, if I were the Afghan refugees of Kila Abdullah, close to the Afghan-Pakistan border, I would have done just the same to Robert Fisk. Or any other Westerner I could find.
Even the prospects do not look so great:
[url="http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=40&ItemID=2231"]Independent[/url]
Furthermore, even the objective of destroying Al Qaeda has marginally successful:
Then there is the war on Afghanistan. That, we were told, was the first victory in the battle against terrorism.
But now, according to the New York Times, both the CIA and the Federal Bureau of Investigation have concluded that the U.S.-led war did not diminish the terrorist threat.
In fact, the Times reports, the Afghan war made matters worse by scattering potential hostiles to other countries and inflaming anti-American sentiment among Islamic militants worldwide.
Here the CIA and FBI are echoing a wisdom first articulated last fall by those skeptical of the Bush war, including (to their great credit) Alexa McDonough's New Democratic Party caucus.
At the time, such critics were dismissed by some in the North American media as professional anti-Americans and pusillanimous twerps. Now it seems, the twerps were on to something.
This is not to say that the bombing of several hundred Afghan civilians might not have an upside. The war could result in a government that does more for that sad country than the misogynists of the now departed Taliban.
But that, as we say in the war biz, would be a collateral benefit. The U.S., Canada, Britain and their assorted friends didn't invade Afghanistan to help women. They invaded to demolish what was at the time called the "terrorist infrastructure" behind the attack on the World Trade Center. And in this, they seem to have failed spectacularly
Also, I ask you refrain from saying: "root out those responsible for the attacks on our soil, on our civilians ... We succeeded,". The core perpetrators, the masterminds, the evildoers that knocked down the towers are DEAD! (with the exception of Massawi) By all indications, the U.S. did not succeed in killing them -- either they killed themselves or are rich business types or crime lords that have yet to be tracked down. The 9/11 terrorists, like most terrorists and resistance groups, work in cells, okay? Cells are isolated. They do not receive their orders from a central planning committee. It is like this: Bin Laden or some other network [i]leader[/i] says "go blow the shit out of something", a cell voluteers, the cell gets money from monied associates WORKING THROUGH the network [i]leader(s)[/i], the cell handles all the detailed planning and equipment acquisition and carries out the action. Know why I use italics on the word "leader"? Because there are not really any. Such are just motivational speakers and or funding conduits. Al Qaeda is bin Laden's body guard and it does carry out terrorist operations but nothing like 9/11.
[Messiah]One fact that came up during a party at my house last night was that the US didnt allow any other country to give food or health supplies to the afghans. I have no link or proof to this, maybe you can look it up?[/Messiah]
Those bastards at CNN must have deleted the offending article or I just can not find it. Here is something anyway:
CNN
Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf, the Pakistani cabinet and security council voted unanimously to "help the international community fight terrorism." The U.S. government has asked Pakistan to close its border with Afghanistan, stop fuel supplies to the Taliban and, if requested, grant U.S. warplanes access to Pakistani airspace.
CNN
Pakistan already has closed the 1,400-kilometer-long (800-mile-long) border in compliance with a U.S. request.
Chomsky
However, "restraint" seems to me a questionable word. On Sept. 16, the New York Times reported that "Washington has also demanded [from Pakistan] a cutoff of fuel supplies,...and the elimination of truck convoys that provide much of the food and other supplies to Afghanistan's civilian population." Astonishingly, that report elicited no detectable reaction in the West, a grim reminder of the nature of the Western civilization that leaders and elite commentators claim to uphold, yet another lesson that is not lost among those who have been at the wrong end of the guns and whips for centuries. In the following days, those demands were implemented. On Sept. 27, the same NYT correspondent reported that officials in Pakistan "said today that they would not relent in their decision to seal off the country's 1,400- mile border with Afghanistan, a move requested by the Bush administration because, the officials said, they wanted to be sure that none of Mr. bin Laden's men were hiding among the huge tide of refugees"
[rhett]I don't think that you can boil down 9-11 to just raising political awareness. It was the slaughter of thousands of people.[/rhett]
The cell that planned and executed this were burgeoise, upper middle, university students. Though it is true among them were thugs lent by Al Qaeda, something tells me their motives were not primal (e.g. revenge) or born of simple-minded doctrinal dogma (e.g. Islamic fanaticism).
[rhett]I am sick of arguing with Anti-American people. It is so friggin hopeless. We are the devil either way. Whatever.[/rhett]
Hopeless? You are not alone -- it goes both ways. Besides, anyone who thinks about it for more than a second or actually meets an American knows they are just like any other group of people and only differing in the details. If you would just look at your society's practical (not theoretical) distribution of power you would see that the U.S. may do things to which you are not immediately accountable. The U.S. voter is among the higher political echelons in the U.S., and indeed the world, but you can only make good decisions if you have the proper information. Important questions are:
-What is the source of your information and its interests?
-Does it largely corroborate sources of different interests? For example, did the New York Times corroborate the Guardian and Le Monde during the Vietnam war.
-Does it largely corroborate apolitical entities? For example, did the New York Times corroborate the Red Cross or Lebanese government during the '82 Lebanon invasion. With regards to the Lebanese government, remember the Lebanese consensus did not appreciate the Palestinian presence and that its death toll estimates were the lowest with the exception of the Israeli government and, in turn, American media.
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 11-27-2002).]
The first casualty of war is truth!
We sit here and debate whos is right without knowing all the Facts or Truth!
And I don't believe that any newspaper or TV news has all the Facts or Truth! Bias reporting is way to common these days!
So how can you pass, or what gives you the right, to pass judgement on either side of this debate! To pass judgement on anything like this is saying you know more than anyone who is there and that you know the TRUTH!
Debate it for what it is a travisty, man's inhumanity to his fellow man for whatever reason. But to come out and place blame without knowing the TRUTH about the matter in question is shear stupidity!
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[b]4 Thousand Throats can be cut in one night by a running Warrior[/b]
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[url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Never eat anything bigger than your own head.[/url]
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
About the original subject, I once again got to agree with Argone. Noone here here knows all the facts about that war, so it's pointless to blame knowing the truth. Of course stating opinions and discussing about it is ok though.
- PJH
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Talk is silver, but violence is gold.