You're judging them from your standards, Slade - you know, I bet the 'fundamentalist' Muslims find your society quite repulsive as well.
Still, if we're on the anti-homosexual stint, you could look closer to home - your own state laws and a number of Christian groups give practicing homosexuals enough hard time without them having to worry about which Muslim country not to go to on holiday this year... Islam, when taken to the extreme, isn't the only religion to promote intolerance - Christianity, and its derivatives, has a much longer history of doing just that.
Returning to the Nigerian discussion - I never stated that the violence started with the Christians, but they were certainly a major presence in the more bloody conflicts just prior to the cancellation of the event. Nor did I say that they were out 'celebrating'; I think that's certainly a case of wires crossed.
Of course I'm judging from my standards. I'm not going to look at a Islamic fundamentalist and say "we should meet half way". I would say the same thing about a Christian fundamentalist, although here in North America the Christian fundamentalists don't seem to kill for their beliefs nearly as much as the Middle East/African Islamic ones do.
One advantage of living in Vancouver, the city being so left wing and all, is that religion isn't a part of the city life. It's not a part of politics here, and it rarely has anything to do with crime.
I read a quote yesterday from an Islamic man who was involved in the Nigerian riots saying "I would kill my parents if it would please Mohammed". I'm sorry, but at some point you just have to say "that's wrong, that's not the way a society should act".
------------------
[url="http://www.alecm.com/"]Alec McClymont[/url]
"Something is only impossible until it's not."
The Koran reads like the old testament.. kill this person, kill that persons, instructions on beheading.. things like that
Historicly Islam ISNT a peacable religion, the history Records Mohammads invasion of Mecca and that it wasnt entirely peacefull, here is a great quote from a text by an islamic scholar, which details the fate of one of Mohammeds enemies.
When Uthman had left he said to his companions who were sitting around him, "I kept silent so that one of you might get up and strike off his head!" One of the Ansar said, "Then why didn't you give me a sign, O Apostle of God?" He answered that a prophet does not kill by pointing. (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasulullah, p. 550).
The details of the spread of Islam even in Mohammeds own time read more like a war diary then anything else. There are lots of other wonderfull passages in various Islamic books and the Qur'an which constantly negate this claim of Islam as "the most peaceful of religons"
Frankly the only major western religion which had as its found a person who was almost a complete pacifist was, yeup you guessed it Christianity!
Now I guess I am about to be flamed to death for being utterly non PC.
[This message has been edited by Tyvar (edited 12-02-2002).]
Any movement in which the person, not the message becomes the primary focus can lead to a corruption of the ideas and principles the movement is based on. Too many people focus too much on the rules of their religion. They get rapped up in ceremony, traditions, and in following the mandates of self proclaimed religious leaders instead of looking inside and really examining what their religion is all about.
Like someone said in b5, its easier to hold up high someone you think embodies all your greatest ideals than it is to actualy change yourself. Most of the time this is a harmless consequence of human nature, but when extreemists and fanatics are intrusted with the faith of the people things can go terribly wrong as was the case with the inquisition, and radical Islam.
------------------
We Live as one, We die as one, We will face the darkness as one.
"Understanding is a Three Edged Sword- Your side, Their side, And the Truth...."
I didnt say Islam was peaceful, I was referring to my old history teacher, who used to say that. And he had a lot of proof about it too, that compared to the other (major) religions (except Buddhism), historically islam is the most peaceful one.
------------------
Talk is silver, but violence is gold.
Im afraid your history instructor was looking at a biased history Messiah, for every example of "peacefull" Islam, I can find you one or maybe even two of "violent" Islam.. As a religion it has been as bloody as any of the others.
Best history class I ever had was co-taught by an Orthadox pro Israeli jew and a conservative Iranian Muslim. Both of them were history proffessors with their specialties in middle eastern history. They cancelled each other out, because the produced ALL the examples.. god it was messy, they also hated one another. In the end it was a draw. he end you realized that the truth was alot uglier and brutal then anybody wanted to admit.
One of the things people dont realize is Christianities violent periods ebbed and flowed, Prior to it becoming the offical religion of the Roman Empire it about 250 AD, it was very passive, then again it was also heavily persecuted.
One classic example is Egypt in the 1100's was ruled by very tolerant Caliphs, while the Spanish kingdom was incredibly opressive,it expelled Jews from its territory including the Jewish philosopher Moses Maimonides. Its also part of the reason that the Spainish reconquest started gaining steam, much of the yoman pesantry was begining to revolt.
Then you have the turkik invasions both east and west, ecetera, ecetera. The invasions and irradiaction of budishsts in Bangladesh, Indoensia, Malaysia, the attempts at conquering the philipines.
Id suggest you were being given an incomplete picture, I am afraid, the religion is guilty of the same sins christianity is.. including slavery, which is still legal in two islamic countries.
True words (as other words you said in this topic).
I guess the ~200 million Indians who were mostly actively killed during the (North-)"American Frontier" would have nodded to your sentence if they could.
The majority of the Christians disregarded the Indians as humans and their right to live. For that very reason, the Bible was misinterpreted, and not by mistake.
Sad things are done in the name of religions (and their respective gods). Don't mix religions with what they are used to in order to manipulate people. In this respect, Muslim faith can be abused the same way as Christian faith (or any other).
... and: "Imagine" is not a stupid song at all (although I once thought so). Read my sig.
------------------
We are one. No matter the blood, no matter the skin, no matter the world, no matter the star. .. We are one.
No matter the pain, no matter the darkness, no matter the loss, no matter the fear. .. We are one.
- Alliance Preamble to the Declaration of Principles, The Paragon of Animals
Webmaster [url="http://www.Sprungtor.de"]www.Sprungtor.de[/url]
I guess the ~200 million Indians who were mostly actively killed during the (North-)"American Frontier" would have nodded to your sentence if they could.
[/b][/quote]
Where do you get the 200 million number? the native population as of 1492 was 15 million acording to all the credible scientific information, and then historical epidemiologists have traced it crashing from there by disease.
Sorry to nit pick this, your right of course, but the bad "science" that is used to get those high numbers is also used by some people for some other propagandist purposes which are definatly dark in their subtle intentions.
[This message has been edited by Tyvar (edited 12-05-2002).]
I was going to answer [b]NO![/b] to this question.... But then I thought that maybe somewhere some of them may not be connected to those radical groups and I would be as bad as them!
I don't Know!
------------------
[b]4 Thousand Throats can be cut in one night by a running Warrior[/b]
[quote][b]Sorry to nit pick this, your right of course, but the bad "science" that is used to get those high numbers is also used by some people for some other propagandist purposes which are definatly dark in their subtle intentions.[/b][/quote]
Almost like the demonisation of the Islamic faith in the modern, western media, eh?
Or the bias that drips through half the history books we make our kids plow through?
Bungle, the truth isnt demonization. Its not just Chritianity that isnt fond of Islam, the budist population of Thailand for example is terrified of their muslim neighbors, you know, attempts to conquer and genocide. Plus the destruction of the Buddhist population that predated the islamic invasion.
The TRADITONAL interpretation of Islam tends towards violce, fortunatly Islam has had alot of humanist leaders emerge through out its history. However right now is not one of those periods.
Another problem is you have a more open leader arise in one place, he is quickly eliminated by a nastier leader, this is why the Turks conquered the Arabs in Jeruslem, twice.
Frankly I dont understand people who attack Christanity on one hand then attempt to defend Islam on the other, frankly both faiths share the same sins, the thing is Chritianity is quite weak at the moment and doesnt show much sign of being revived, where as Islam still rather strong.
Bungle: Maybe it's different in the UK, but here in the US, I'm just not seeing any demonization of Islam in the media. Most everywhere I look, they're interviewing professors and Muslims who emphasize the peaceful nature of portions of the Qur'an, must notably the Meccan verses.
------------------
We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!
The early Meccan versus right? what about the later ones after he returns from Medina, and starts expanding, those start getting darker, plus most islamic traditions have a belief that the later passages take precedent over the early ones.
Exactly, Tyvar. The Meccan verses stress that Jews and Christians are to be treated as brothers and will be favored by God, while the Medinan verses speak of killing the infidels where they stand. The Medinan verses were written while Islam was undergoing some of its early expansion-by-war, under the leadership of Mohammad.
Now, I'm no expert on Islam, and certainly am not qualified to say how these verses should be interpreted, so I'll not get into that. But the media coverage I've seen tends to focus almost exclusively on the peaceful nature of Islam. So does Bush in his speeches on the topic, for the very good reason that he doesn't want our actions to be seen as waging war on Islam.
------------------
We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!
Its quite simple Bekenn, the Islamic higherarchy after Mohammeds death decided that the latter passages have presedence since they carry the later revealed word of god.
And this is why I believe none of it. Too many conflicting interpretations. Go on, tell me the last words of Christ before he died.
------------------
AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of Fate Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"
(Sorry I just couldn't resist [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img])
To answer your question, wasn't it "Forgive them lord, for they know not what they do"?
------------------
There are 3 things in life I never forget: my friends, my enemies, and my access codes.
Never put gasoline in a fire extinguisher.
"No government, no dictator can hold an imprisioned population by force of arms forever. There is no power in the universe greater than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies [i]cannot stand[/i]." - G'Kar, [i]The Long Twighlight Struggle[/i]
Actually, Talon, depending on which gospel you're reading, it's one of the following:
It's finished.
I'm thirsty.
Father, into Your hands, I commend my spirit!
My God, My God, why have You forsaken me?
The first and third are pretty straightforward as to their meanings; the second makes a good deal of sense, as someone undergoing crucifixion would experience dreadful thirst due to what the body's going through. The last one is a reference to Psalm 22. Here are some portions showing the general idea behind the psalm:
[quote]1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.[/quote]
[quote]9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.
10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.[/quote]
[quote]16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.
19 But you, O LORD , be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.[/quote]
[quote]25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him-
may your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD ,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him-
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn-
for he has done it.[/quote]
------------------
We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!
Comments
------------------
[url="http://www.alecm.com/"]Alec McClymont[/url]
"Something is only impossible until it's not."
------------------
Talk is silver, but violence is gold.
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
Still, if we're on the anti-homosexual stint, you could look closer to home - your own state laws and a number of Christian groups give practicing homosexuals enough hard time without them having to worry about which Muslim country not to go to on holiday this year... Islam, when taken to the extreme, isn't the only religion to promote intolerance - Christianity, and its derivatives, has a much longer history of doing just that.
Returning to the Nigerian discussion - I never stated that the violence started with the Christians, but they were certainly a major presence in the more bloody conflicts just prior to the cancellation of the event. Nor did I say that they were out 'celebrating'; I think that's certainly a case of wires crossed.
One advantage of living in Vancouver, the city being so left wing and all, is that religion isn't a part of the city life. It's not a part of politics here, and it rarely has anything to do with crime.
I read a quote yesterday from an Islamic man who was involved in the Nigerian riots saying "I would kill my parents if it would please Mohammed". I'm sorry, but at some point you just have to say "that's wrong, that's not the way a society should act".
------------------
[url="http://www.alecm.com/"]Alec McClymont[/url]
"Something is only impossible until it's not."
I think you answered your own question. Seems as though you're getting all of your information from news sources.
You don't usually read articles about people being gentle.
The news reports extremism.
[This message has been edited by samuelk (edited 11-29-2002).]
[quote]Originally posted by Slade:
[b]
Remember though that it's always the smallest minorities which have the loudest voices.
[/b][/quote]
------------------
[url="http://www.alecm.com/"]Alec McClymont[/url]
"Something is only impossible until it's not."
The Koran reads like the old testament.. kill this person, kill that persons, instructions on beheading.. things like that
Historicly Islam ISNT a peacable religion, the history Records Mohammads invasion of Mecca and that it wasnt entirely peacefull, here is a great quote from a text by an islamic scholar, which details the fate of one of Mohammeds enemies.
When Uthman had left he said to his companions who were sitting around him, "I kept silent so that one of you might get up and strike off his head!" One of the Ansar said, "Then why didn't you give me a sign, O Apostle of God?" He answered that a prophet does not kill by pointing. (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasulullah, p. 550).
The details of the spread of Islam even in Mohammeds own time read more like a war diary then anything else. There are lots of other wonderfull passages in various Islamic books and the Qur'an which constantly negate this claim of Islam as "the most peaceful of religons"
Frankly the only major western religion which had as its found a person who was almost a complete pacifist was, yeup you guessed it Christianity!
Now I guess I am about to be flamed to death for being utterly non PC.
[This message has been edited by Tyvar (edited 12-02-2002).]
Like someone said in b5, its easier to hold up high someone you think embodies all your greatest ideals than it is to actualy change yourself. Most of the time this is a harmless consequence of human nature, but when extreemists and fanatics are intrusted with the faith of the people things can go terribly wrong as was the case with the inquisition, and radical Islam.
------------------
We Live as one, We die as one, We will face the darkness as one.
"Understanding is a Three Edged Sword- Your side, Their side, And the Truth...."
------------------
Talk is silver, but violence is gold.
Best history class I ever had was co-taught by an Orthadox pro Israeli jew and a conservative Iranian Muslim. Both of them were history proffessors with their specialties in middle eastern history. They cancelled each other out, because the produced ALL the examples.. god it was messy, they also hated one another. In the end it was a draw. he end you realized that the truth was alot uglier and brutal then anybody wanted to admit.
One of the things people dont realize is Christianities violent periods ebbed and flowed, Prior to it becoming the offical religion of the Roman Empire it about 250 AD, it was very passive, then again it was also heavily persecuted.
One classic example is Egypt in the 1100's was ruled by very tolerant Caliphs, while the Spanish kingdom was incredibly opressive,it expelled Jews from its territory including the Jewish philosopher Moses Maimonides. Its also part of the reason that the Spainish reconquest started gaining steam, much of the yoman pesantry was begining to revolt.
Then you have the turkik invasions both east and west, ecetera, ecetera. The invasions and irradiaction of budishsts in Bangladesh, Indoensia, Malaysia, the attempts at conquering the philipines.
Id suggest you were being given an incomplete picture, I am afraid, the religion is guilty of the same sins christianity is.. including slavery, which is still legal in two islamic countries.
[b]No one is what they merely claim to be by words. You know them by their actions.
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img][/b][/quote]
True words (as other words you said in this topic).
I guess the ~200 million Indians who were mostly actively killed during the (North-)"American Frontier" would have nodded to your sentence if they could.
The majority of the Christians disregarded the Indians as humans and their right to live. For that very reason, the Bible was misinterpreted, and not by mistake.
Sad things are done in the name of religions (and their respective gods). Don't mix religions with what they are used to in order to manipulate people. In this respect, Muslim faith can be abused the same way as Christian faith (or any other).
... and: "Imagine" is not a stupid song at all (although I once thought so). Read my sig.
------------------
We are one. No matter the blood, no matter the skin, no matter the world, no matter the star. .. We are one.
No matter the pain, no matter the darkness, no matter the loss, no matter the fear. .. We are one.
- Alliance Preamble to the Declaration of Principles, The Paragon of Animals
Webmaster [url="http://www.Sprungtor.de"]www.Sprungtor.de[/url]
For a decent John Lennon song, checkout Strawberry Fields Forever or I am the Walrus, or any of his Beatles songs from Revolver up I guess...
------------------
The Pope owns 51% of General Motors,
And the stock exchange is the only thing he's qualified to quote us
[b]
I guess the ~200 million Indians who were mostly actively killed during the (North-)"American Frontier" would have nodded to your sentence if they could.
[/b][/quote]
Where do you get the 200 million number? the native population as of 1492 was 15 million acording to all the credible scientific information, and then historical epidemiologists have traced it crashing from there by disease.
Sorry to nit pick this, your right of course, but the bad "science" that is used to get those high numbers is also used by some people for some other propagandist purposes which are definatly dark in their subtle intentions.
[This message has been edited by Tyvar (edited 12-05-2002).]
I don't Know!
------------------
[b]4 Thousand Throats can be cut in one night by a running Warrior[/b]
Almost like the demonisation of the Islamic faith in the modern, western media, eh?
Or the bias that drips through half the history books we make our kids plow through?
Horses for courses.
The TRADITONAL interpretation of Islam tends towards violce, fortunatly Islam has had alot of humanist leaders emerge through out its history. However right now is not one of those periods.
Another problem is you have a more open leader arise in one place, he is quickly eliminated by a nastier leader, this is why the Turks conquered the Arabs in Jeruslem, twice.
Frankly I dont understand people who attack Christanity on one hand then attempt to defend Islam on the other, frankly both faiths share the same sins, the thing is Chritianity is quite weak at the moment and doesnt show much sign of being revived, where as Islam still rather strong.
------------------
We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!
Now, I'm no expert on Islam, and certainly am not qualified to say how these verses should be interpreted, so I'll not get into that. But the media coverage I've seen tends to focus almost exclusively on the peaceful nature of Islam. So does Bush in his speeches on the topic, for the very good reason that he doesn't want our actions to be seen as waging war on Islam.
------------------
We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!
------------------
AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of Fate Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"
(Sorry I just couldn't resist [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img])
To answer your question, wasn't it "Forgive them lord, for they know not what they do"?
------------------
There are 3 things in life I never forget: my friends, my enemies, and my access codes.
Never put gasoline in a fire extinguisher.
"No government, no dictator can hold an imprisioned population by force of arms forever. There is no power in the universe greater than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies [i]cannot stand[/i]." - G'Kar, [i]The Long Twighlight Struggle[/i]
------------------
Chase
Web Hosting Provider for FirstOnes.com
http://www.radiusco.com/
It's finished.
I'm thirsty.
Father, into Your hands, I commend my spirit!
My God, My God, why have You forsaken me?
The first and third are pretty straightforward as to their meanings; the second makes a good deal of sense, as someone undergoing crucifixion would experience dreadful thirst due to what the body's going through. The last one is a reference to Psalm 22. Here are some portions showing the general idea behind the psalm:
[quote]1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.[/quote]
[quote]9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.
10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.[/quote]
[quote]16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.
19 But you, O LORD , be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.[/quote]
[quote]25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him-
may your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD ,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him-
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn-
for he has done it.[/quote]
------------------
We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!