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ROFL!!! (mark 2) - News Article
Random Chaos
Actually Carefully-selected Order in disguise
in Zocalo v2.0
The Associated Press
Thursday, September 19, 2002; 2:45 PM
WASHINGTON ?? As tensions rise between the United States and Germany over differences on Iraq policy, the White House on Thursday called a German government minister's comparison of President Bush to Adolph Hitler "outrageous and inexplicable."
Justice Minister Herta Daeubler-Gmelin told a small group of labor union members on Wednesday that Bush was going after Iraq to divert attention from domestic problems. "That's a popular method. Even Hitler did that," the German newspaper, Schwaebisches Tagblatt, quoted her as saying.
The minister called the report misleading but did not deny the remarks. Opposition conservatives vying to defeat Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder's Social Democrats in Sunday's parliamentary elections called for her resignation.
With the balloting approaching, Schroeder has offered repeated and outspoken opposition to Bush's drive for action against Iraq's Saddam Hussein, creating discord between the two allies.
Bush press secretary Ari Fleischer sought to downplay the impact on the relationship between the countries, but reacted strongly to the minister's remarks.
"The United States and Germany have a very long and valuable relationship, and relations between the people of the United States and Germany are very important to Americans," Fleischer said. "But this statement by the justice minister is outrageous and inexplicable."
© 2002 The Associated Press
Thursday, September 19, 2002; 2:45 PM
WASHINGTON ?? As tensions rise between the United States and Germany over differences on Iraq policy, the White House on Thursday called a German government minister's comparison of President Bush to Adolph Hitler "outrageous and inexplicable."
Justice Minister Herta Daeubler-Gmelin told a small group of labor union members on Wednesday that Bush was going after Iraq to divert attention from domestic problems. "That's a popular method. Even Hitler did that," the German newspaper, Schwaebisches Tagblatt, quoted her as saying.
The minister called the report misleading but did not deny the remarks. Opposition conservatives vying to defeat Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder's Social Democrats in Sunday's parliamentary elections called for her resignation.
With the balloting approaching, Schroeder has offered repeated and outspoken opposition to Bush's drive for action against Iraq's Saddam Hussein, creating discord between the two allies.
Bush press secretary Ari Fleischer sought to downplay the impact on the relationship between the countries, but reacted strongly to the minister's remarks.
"The United States and Germany have a very long and valuable relationship, and relations between the people of the United States and Germany are very important to Americans," Fleischer said. "But this statement by the justice minister is outrageous and inexplicable."
© 2002 The Associated Press
Comments
Here you go folks another episode of;
[b]AS THE WORLD BURNS[/b]
In this episode we fine out if the US and Germany will ever play kissy face huggy bear again. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
Tune in for more great scenes such as,
Your mother wears combat boots, and the infamous, Is that a gun in your pants or are you just happy to see me! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/eek.gif[/img]
Don't you just love it when world leaders
pretend they are children again. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/confused.gif[/img]
Argone
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"Jopoforce"
This is the problem with having a government that gets its campaign funding in a large part from companies and people who are tied to outdated things like oil.
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[url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Never eat anything bigger than your own head.[/url]
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
The military shoulda poured all its money into getting funding from the tech industry a couple of years ago [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img].
[The Houghton Mifflin Canadian Dictionary of the English Language]fascism [i]n.[/i] 1. A Philosophy or system of government that advocates or exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with an ideology of belligerent nationalism.[/The Houghton Mifflin Canadian Dictionary of the English Language]
You are mistaken; Germany is no longer fascist. To my knowledge it is socialist like Britain and Canada. However, the U.S. would currently qualify as a quasi-fascist state.
It would have been more accurate had you stated: "look at them call a spade 'a spade'".
[Reuters]The report said Daeubler-Gmelin had told a pre-election gathering that, by threatening to attack Iraq, "Bush wants to distract attention from his domestic political problems. That's a favorite method. Hitler did that too."[/Reuters]
It's a shame that telling the truth usually gets you f*cked in the political arena. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
P.S. I'm not calling Shrub a Hitler wannabe. I'm calling him a war-mongering, opportunistic @$$hole.
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[url="http://www.zmag.org"][i]Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.[/i][/url]
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 09-20-2002).]
U.S. don't you? [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/confused.gif[/img]
Does it bother you that much that this country exists without your moral and political approval.
He, the Justice Minister, Running for reelection says something like that to get
votes and you think its wonderful.
If you would have taken the time to read the rest of my post you would have seen,
[b]Before you shallowed your foot clean up to the cheek of your ass.[/b]
That I said World "leaders" acting as children! Plural.
Not just Germany Dude take a chill pill!
Argone
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[b]4 Thousand Throats can be cut in one night by a running Warrior[/b]
U.S. don't you? [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/confused.gif[/img][/Argone]
I've already stated I have a problem with the power brokers and am unbiased regarding countries and peoples. Imperialism shifts between nations - that is - powerful corporations continually seek a new protector. There is a war of democracy and fascism in the Western democracies; the popular failure to recognize its existence means Western citizens largely react in ignorance to corporate advances.
Unless Western voting public becomes more discerning, a government's constituency will be corporate and, hence, the government fascist. This is an extremely dangerous situation for those that love freedom, don't you think? From now on, please recognize the context in which I speak of the U.S.
[Argone]Does it bother you that much that this country exists without your moral and political approval.[/Argone]
Again, it's not the country or the people.
[Argone]He, the Justice Minister, Running for reelection says something like that to get
votes and you think its wonderful.
If you would have taken the time to read the rest of my post you would have seen,
[b]Before you shallowed your foot clean up to the cheek of your ass.[/b]
That I said World "leaders" acting as children! Plural.
Not just Germany Dude take a chill pill!
Argone[/Argone]
It is implied that it's not the politicians that are the children. Instead it is we, the public, that have many false assumptions about the political world that is [i]the world of power[/i]; one of them is that public rhetoric is intended as serious.
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[url="http://www.zmag.org"][i]Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.[/i][/url]
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 09-23-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 09-23-2002).]
[b][Reuters]Daeubler-Gmelin "Bush wants to distract attention from his domestic political problems. That's a favorite method. Hitler did that too."[/Reuters]
It's a shame that telling the truth usually gets you f*cked in the political arena. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img][/b][/quote]
Domestic Problems?!?
I think it's funny that everyone seems to think the US economy is doing so poorly, when in fact it's doing just fine when compared to historical values. I do wish we didn't have a deficit but in times of recession like we just had a debt is exactly what you are supposed to do, more government spending and tax cuts to get the economic machine rolling again. In my opinion the Democrats are just looking for anything to run their political agendas on. No one knows what to do with the economy. It is in a state of total flux and limbo, and everyone is already erring on the side of weakness, but beyond that no one can figure out what is going on, not Alan Greenspan or the Democrats or the Bush administration. It's easy to say look he's not doing anything about the economy when the Democrats don’t have a plan themselves. If they do have a plan, god help them, because anyone who tries to do anything is more likely to screw things up!
Unemployment is not high, inventories are dropping, production is stagnant but not dropping, productivity is going up (mostly because people are afraid of loosing their jobs and so do more), and growth is stagnant. It's true we aren't going to see the artificial margin and credit debt based boom the economy experienced in the 90's thanks to the Clinton/Greenspan administration but things aren't all that bad. Perhaps the computer/internet industry which is over represented on this board has suffered, but they should have... ...so many companies weren't producing anything of substance. Unemployment was WAY below the natural level. It becomes clear why companies lied about having profits when in fact they were running in the red... they didn't do anything, it was a ghost of a boom! You probably wonder where the national debt came back from: economists like me had imperfect information to predict tax income on, when a company lies or overestimates how much tax they will have to pay it screws all the tables up.
Ask yourself, do you have a job where all you do is sit around and e-mail porn and chain letters to your friends on company time? If so you're damn lucky to still have a job, and the economy must be great not to have to cut the fat yet. I get e-mails all day long from people who are supposed to be working! WTF! Reduce the workweek or something! Perhaps you should get to work helping your companies productivity?
Is the market down, yes, but it was horrifically overvalued, frankly I don't shed a tear when I hear that the financial elite lost their shirts doing glorified gambling in the market doing their BS day trading. Who in their right minds invests in companies that don’t post dividends!?!
There are many sad individual stories, but there always are. The economy is not as bad as those with an agenda would have you believe.
[Falyorn] "P.S. I'm not calling Shrub a Hitler wannabe. I'm calling him a war-mongering, opportunistic @$$hole."
Opportunistic, no I don't think so. If President Hussein were to ever get an atomic device it would mean that every other enemy of freedom would have one also. You can talk about the failures of United States democracy all you want but it's the lesser of two evils ladies and gentlemen. The terrorists and cowards who are to afraid to give their people the right to vote for or against them have gotten their taste of a big hit on a democracy, and they liked it. There is no doubt they can't wait to do it again. 767's are not small arms and bombs its clear large-scale weapons are out on the table. The bombs at the embassies in Africa were not small things either, neither was the attack on the Cole.
After Desert Storm disarmament didn't happen. Now UN weapon inspectors are useless for finding hidden labs. Iraq's rejection on Sunday of efforts to obtain a new U.N. resolution calling for Iraqi disarmament is proof they are not ever going to comply and are only playing games yet again.
"Annan said military strikes were permitted in self-defense when a country was attacked, but "when it comes to the broader peace and security issues, the Security Council will have to pronounce itself." "
By Christopher Wilson Reuters Mon Sep 23, 8:54 PM ET
What good is self defense when we are talking about weapons of mass destruction. When you do strikes after the fact it's called retaliation, not self defense. Keeping yourself from being hit is exactly what self-defense is all about. Saddam Hussein has a record of using biological weapons on his neighbors. You can't honestly believe that if he obtained WoMD he wouldn't sell them to people who would use them against his enemies. What more do you need?
You want to talk about an economy in trouble, what happens when a bomb goes of in a major economic center again. How much is that going to cost us again in cold $ not just lives?
This time you can accuse me a saber rattling. This needs to be ended now so the minimum numbers of lives are lost.
Go into Iraq and remove the leadership because they never have and never will respond to real negotiation. Continue to send serious aid to Afghanistan. Set up as close to a democratic government in Iraq as is possible. Rebuild what infrastructure was destroyed (yes with US tax dollars if the international community doesn't want to help. Pull the troops out when things are stable enough and the new leaders have shown that they want to have a positive influence on freedom in the world.
If you have democracy and hope for the future and you don't give dictators like Saddam Hussein an avenue to oppress people and refuse them education there will be no more terrorism and no need for United States Troops on Middle East soil and all this can be ended. Yes it will cost the United States blood and money, but in the long run it is the safe and right thing to do.
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 09-24-2002).]
Unemployment is not high...
Ask yourself, do you have a job where all you do is sit around and e-mail porn and chain letters to your friends on company time? If so you're damn lucky to still have a job, and the economy must be great not to have to cut the fat yet. I get e-mails all day long from people who are supposed to be working! WTF! Reduce the workweek or something! Perhaps you should get to work helping your companies productivity?[/b]
[/quote]
I heard something the other day that corporate downsizing in the last 2 years has cost 2 million jobs acrossed the US. Employment here in California sucks! (unless you live in LA proper or the Bay Area.) And unemployment is going up every day as corporations lay off more and more.
When I (and a whole slew of other productive people) got laid off in 1999 from Sierra, we were in heavy crunch mode to get a game into gold. There was no time for porn or chain letters even if we were so inclined.
I agree with most everything you stated, but...
[This message has been edited by JackN (edited 09-24-2002).]
Of course I didn't mean you or the ITF crew specificaly Jack. I have this strage feeling the Sierra choice wasn't just economy driven; more like internal corporate stupidity [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] I think everyone nows that there are a large number of people at work who don't work. It's how the french get away with such a short work week, they go in get the stuff done and get the heck out of there. I didn't promise that stupid management would fire the right people. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
Tech and the California Unemployment rate is a very complicated thing, the flood of investment into tech and immigration to California (I don't mean Hispanics or illegal) and lots of other variables have done strange things to the local economy that are not yet quantifiable. To be a good source on that I would have to study it for a few months at least. I've e-mailed a friend who specializes in the California Micro Economy to see if he can summarize for me and to see if my crude theory is supportable.
Here is a link to California Unemployment info: [url="http://data.bls.gov/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet?data_tool=latest_numbers&series_id=LASST06000003"]http://data.bls.gov/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet?data_tool=latest_numbers&serie s_id=LASST06000003[/url]
As you can see, Unemployment is high relative to the mid 90's but historically is close to both its mean and median. Honestly the drop in the last few months means nothing, BUT if you look at the graph of employment not many jobs have been lost (or created mind you) in the local economy as a whole over the past three years. Look at the labor force graph boom, and continue to, that's the problem. There is no doubt that the entire West Coast has a higher unemployment rate than the rest of the nation right now, however it isn't astronomical, I don't know of a solution, It would appear everyone wants to move to Cali.
(One note is that the graph makes it look like the pool of workers in growing, and the number of jobs remains the same, it doesn't show the quality of jobs lost or created if you understand the effects of that, those numbers are what I'm trying to get from a friend.)
National unemployment peaked in April and has dropped since. The last time the unemployment rate was 6% was in 1994.
April 6% 8,594 thousand people
May 5.8% 8,351
June 5.9% 8,424
July 5.9% 8,345
Aug 5.7% 8,142 (source for these numbers [url="http://www.mnwfc.org)"]http://www.mnwfc.org)[/url]
The same thing is true here. A 5-7% Unemployment rate is normal, and actually healthy for the economy in the opinion of many economists. We are nowhere near the rates of the early 80's that were 10%.
You might find this interesting: [url="http://www.bls.gov/web/lauhsthl.htm"]http://www.bls.gov/web/lauhsthl.htm[/url]
I guess my point is that things are at normal, and seem to have been steady the past couple quarters, we don’t want to let inflation get away from us again and it's difficult to figure out what to do. Economic forecasting is as unreliable as weather forecasting if not worse. That's why fed rate changes often don't happen until it's 'to late', you can't predict it coming.
The economic ball is at the top of the hill right now, and taking a push at it when you don't know which way it's trying to fall can make the situation worse. That's all I was trying to convey.
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 09-24-2002).]
I wonder why all the big corporations started laying people off back in 1999, which was a year of record profits. It seems they started this spiral by cutting the legs out from under the consumer in the first place. The tax cut for the wealthy didn't help matters either....
Why shouldn't Shrub be compared to Hitler? His grandfather and great grandfather help fund Hitler. Do a web search for George Herbert Walker, Prescott Bush, and Harriman.
Honor and dignity indeed! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/rolleyes.gif[/img]
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AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of Fate Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"
And if Bush really wants to stop world terrorism, then the US gov't should stop training terrorist in the Phillipines, because that IS still going on. Pol Pot was put in power by the US, Saddam was put in power by the US and Bin Laden was trained by the US... doing things for political convenience rarely turns out well...
[This message has been edited by Canuck (edited 09-24-2002).]
[b]Don't tell me that the economy is doing just fine, dammit![/b][/quote]
I said there would be sad stories, and there are no mater how well the economy is doing. The economy is not in a state of disaster, just uncertainty.
[quote]Originally posted by AnlaShok:Why shouldn't Shrub be compared to Hitler? His grandfather and great grandfather help fund Hitler.![/B][/quote]
I don't know of any family who can't be traced back to an atrocity. I don't judge sons and daughters based on history. Comparing President Bush to Adolf Hitler is gross and way out of line.
Your reply was based on emotion. In addition show a little respect; even I refer to President Hussein by his proper name.
Furthermore, Hussein doesn't have a death wish; know these three words by heart: "extremists aren't stupid". You'll never hear about stupid extremists because stupid people can't do $hit, much less start a terrorist organization or stay in power as long as bin Laden or Hussein. Currently Hussein's most powerful conventional weapon, the SCUD, has a range of 200km. U.S. plans for Iraq are currently uncertain; however, if Hussein launches one of his almighty SCUDs at America or Israel it is a certainty there will be a bipartisan commitment to rolling on the floor and laughing of @$$es off while Israel blows Iraq into its component atoms.
Meanwhile, all that mumbo jumbo about creating an Iraqi democracy once Hussein is gone can be dismissed on grounds that bears no semblance to reality. U.S. policy has *ALWAYS* been, in circumstances where vital resources are at stake, to ensure stability. DEMOCRACY DOES NOT ENSURE STABILITY WITH REGARDS U.S. ECONOMIC INTERESTS!!! Have you already forgotten the failed U.S. backed coup in Venezuela? It's plan to install a hard-right party that would $hit over human rights, starve social programs and cut minimum wage BUT LOWER OIL PRICES?
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[url="http://www.zmag.org"][i]Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.[/i][/url]
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 09-25-2002).]
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[url="http://www.zmag.org"][i]Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.[/i][/url]
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 09-25-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 09-25-2002).]
You should take over the world while you
Still know everything! Including the future.
Are you that naive to believe everything you
read or hear.
Granted the world isn't a wonderful place, but at the same time where would you rather live?
I don't know your age, background or anything about you. But I have seen with my
own eyes the destruction that can be caused
by WoMD. Believe me you don't want to see it.
In Pres. Hussains hands you will, maybe in you own hometown. I back my govern.taking his ass to the woodshed.
I will not sit here and argue politics with you. I guess I'am one of those dumb Americans that vote and scream bloody hell when the Government screws up.
But at the same time I also realize that running one of, if not the most, powerful countries in the world doesn't come with a set of instructions.
Yes I agree that things go on in the background that shouldn't and if it was up to me I would hang the bastards in Times square just as a warning to others.
But that is not what this is about. This is about one countries high ranking offical using Defamation of character on another.
Have we learned so little that soon we will be back to throwing sticks and stones.
If we keep this up like Einstein said;
I don't know how they'll fight WW 3
but I do know how they'll fight WW4
With sticks and stones.
Argone
UK,Norway,Spain,Ireland, and Italy are the only countries who's economic situation isnt bleak, and UK and Norway are not exactly rosey either
Sweden, Germany and France are cooking the books worse then Enron, in order to hide double digit unemployment, and the fact that Sweden is in big trouble, they havent grown any sector of the econonmy, the only increase in jobs is due to increasing government hiring, but that isnt actualy adding any productivity to the economy.
Despite the media reports that american oil companies are buying up all the Iraqi oil, you would be amazed about the amount of ILLEGAL oil going to France, The northern pipelines are in operation and they are shipping a hell of alot of illegal oil out through Iran, and France is buying this oil, paying below market prices, and making up something like 20% of france's petroluem consumption. Imporation. Ive seen figures that if France had to pay market prices for that oil, the french economy would really take a nose dive.
You should take over the world while you
Still know everything! Including the future.
Are you that naive to believe everything you
read or hear.[/Argone]
Yeah, sometimes. However, my arguments in this case is backed by credible sources and is plausible. The attempted U.S. coup in Venezuela is generally regarded as having taken place. How 'bout you though? It appears that you believe the U.S. is not a neo-colonialist power largely ruled by the upper burgoisie due to a sophisticated indoctrination of the populace but rather benevolent and ruled by the voter despite the historical record's overwhelming evidence. Who's naive? Who's reaching? Or have you ever attempted to puzzle out geopolitics? Most people think they have to be an "expert" in a field to know how something [seemingly] complicated works. This is not true. This is taught to people so they won't try to puzzle things out. This teaching is only effective until you succeed in using your brain. Things work logically. The U.S. is the most powerful, it funds several military dictatorships, its actions, sometimes against its populous, are for the establishment yet it is ruled by the voter? No, the average American is not evil or massacistic.
[Argone]Granted the world isn't a wonderful place, but at the same time where would you rather live?[/Argone}
In a better world. That was easy... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/tongue.gif[/img]
[Argone]I don't know your age, background or anything about you. But I have seen with my
own eyes the destruction that can be caused
by WoMD. Believe me you don't want to see it.
In Pres. Hussains hands you will, maybe in you own hometown. I back my govern.taking his ass to the woodshed. [/Argone]
Again, if Hussein has WoMD he won't use it unless he felt he had nothing to lose because he's not suicidal. Like most in political circles you attribute superficial motives to your enemies. This is bad. Most people do it. In the end you and they, or your and their posterity, will pay for it. This is part of that "you have to be an expert" garbage. Furthermore, there's nothing wrong with regime change, in accordance with the U.N. Charter, toward democracy. However, the U.S. record of violating and vetoing resolutions in securing interests and the significance of Iraqi oil makes all the difference.
[Argone]I will not sit here and argue politics with you. I guess I'am one of those dumb Americans that vote and scream bloody hell when the Government screws up.
But at the same time I also realize that running one of, if not the most, powerful countries in the world doesn't come with a set of instructions.[/Argone]
Yes it does. Go to the library.
[Argone]Yes I agree that things go on in the background that shouldn't and if it was up to me I would hang the bastards in Times square just as a warning to others.
But that is not what this is about. This is about one countries high ranking offical using Defamation of character on another.
Have we learned so little that soon we will be back to throwing sticks and stones.
If we keep this up like Einstein said;
I don't know how they'll fight WW 3
but I do know how they'll fight WW4
With sticks and stones.
Argone[/Argone]
The "defamation" used was an accurate comparison. Reread the article.
Tyvar: Yeah, thanks for bringing that up. The widespread European sentiment didn't have me wondering and it should have. It is a credit to the power of Western media and I'll be more vigilant of it in the future.
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[url="http://www.zmag.org"][i]Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.[/i][/url]
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
He gased his own people! If you believe that statement you made than your dumber than I thought!
You think for one minute he wouldn't give them to terrorists to use against whomever?
Come on you can't be that naive! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/rolleyes.gif[/img]
You sure your not from Iraq? [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/confused.gif[/img]
Argone
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[b]4 Thousand Throats can be cut in one night by a running Warrior[/b]
[This message has been edited by Argone (edited 10-05-2002).]
Your point about WoMD distribution to terrorists is $hitty. Every anti-West or criminal organization can act as a conduit. Saddam is under a microscope; therefore, any other conduit is harder to track; thus regime change will *INCREASE* the difficulty of WoMD tracking for Western intelligence agencies because his terrorist clientel will obtain WoMD from less visible institutions.
Furthermore, Saddam *NEVER* gassed his own people. His Kurdish relations are parallel to the Molosevic-Kosovore duo. Get your facts straight. At this point I would ask if you are dumb or if you have any common sense what-so-ever. If you aren't and you do (respectively) - or in other words: if you have a brain - THEN USE IT. I tire of this sloppy reasoning and bloodlust apologia.
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[url="http://www.zmag.org"][i]Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.[/i][/url]
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 10-21-2002).]
[b]
Am I the only one suspicious of what European politicans and political parties are saying? you do realize why they are being so "anti american" right? its a bunch of propaganda to distract from the fact that their government systems arent cutting it
UK,Norway,Spain,Ireland, and Italy are the only countries who's economic situation isnt bleak, and UK and Norway are not exactly rosey either
Sweden, Germany and France are cooking the books worse then Enron, in order to hide double digit unemployment, and the fact that Sweden is in big trouble, they havent grown any sector of the econonmy, the only increase in jobs is due to increasing government hiring, but that isnt actualy adding any productivity to the economy.
Despite the media reports that american oil companies are buying up all the Iraqi oil, you would be amazed about the amount of ILLEGAL oil going to France, The northern pipelines are in operation and they are shipping a hell of alot of illegal oil out through Iran, and France is buying this oil, paying below market prices, and making up something like 20% of france's petroluem consumption. Imporation. Ive seen figures that if France had to pay market prices for that oil, the french economy would really take a nose dive.[/b][/quote]
Where the hell did you get your info from?! The Swedish unemployment rate is currently at 4% : [url="http://www.scb.se/statistik/am0401/am0401dia4.asp"]http://www.scb.se/statistik/am0401/am0401dia4.asp[/url]
Are you just making this up, or do you spread propaganda?
And that is less than american unemployment, if only by one percent : [url="http://www.bls.gov/cps/home.htm"]http://www.bls.gov/cps/home.htm[/url]
What you should be asking yourself is how many people are spending (jail)time in the states?
You should also be asking yourself why the arabstates hate your nation? Is it because they hate freedom? NO. Is it because of the way your government have acted in that region? ... well?
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Talk is silver, but violence is gold.
[b] Where the hell did you get your info from?! The Swedish unemployment rate is currently at 4% : [url="http://www.scb.se/statistik/am0401/am0401dia4.asp"]http://www.scb.se/statistik/am0401/am0401dia4.asp[/url]
Are you just making this up, or do you spread propaganda?
And that is less than american unemployment, if only by one percent : [url="http://www.bls.gov/cps/home.htm"]http://www.bls.gov/cps/home.htm[/url]
What you should be asking yourself is how many people are spending (jail)time in the states?
You should also be asking yourself why the arabstates hate your nation? Is it because they hate freedom? NO. Is it because of the way your government have acted in that region? ... well?
[/b][/quote]
Messiah, I know what I speak of, the only reason why "offical" unemployment is at 4% is through cooking of the books, the only sector of employment that has grown in sweeden in the past 10 years is government employment, and your private sector employment has actualy dropped slighly. Whats happening is that the government is picking up the slack with make work projects.
While this strategy will work in the short term, in the long run it could do more harm then good.
I also know that the 2001 budget surpluse may have been real, but this years was almost non existant and that sweeden is most likely facing several succesive years of declining tax revenue.
Sweeden has only been experiencing a 1 to 2 percent growth rate of its GDP for a while now, and in the long run even with extensive inflation controls, its not enough.
The main reason the Arabs are going after after us first is our support of Israel, you have to rember up untill the 1980's the main targets of islamic terrorist attacks WERE european and Israeli.
And honestly if the US fell tommorrow, and was gone, guess what? they would move onto you. Its more then oil, its more then money, its about power, belief and what consitutes good for humanity. Whats at stake here is the very mindsets. Honor killings or Women's lib, monothesim verses atheism.
Its so much bigger then what anybody wants to believe.
The bomings in Bali? fighting in the Philipines? extermination of christian polulations in several african countries? and you think its about [i]oil[/i]? there is a cultural war going on, and only one is going to continue to exist.
[This message has been edited by Tyvar (edited 10-22-2002).]
[b]I am not naive, I am empathetic and regard history. A prominent feature of the latter is Stalin's successful attempt to minimize conflict with the West while furthering Imperialist expansion. He is first and foremost a *SURVIVOR*. If Stalin, while posessing WoMD, had been faced with unavoidable defeat, what do you think he would do? If Saddam idolizes Stalin, what do you think he will do?
Your point about WoMD distribution to terrorists is $hitty. Every anti-West or criminal organization can act as a conduit. Saddam is under a microscope; therefore, any other conduit is harder to track; thus regime change will *INCREASE* the difficulty of WoMD tracking for Western intelligence agencies because his terrorist clientel will obtain WoMD from less visible institutions.
Furthermore, Saddam *NEVER* gassed his own people. His Kurdish relations are parallel to the Molosevic-Kosovore duo. Get your facts straight. At this point I would ask if you are dumb or if you have any common sense what-so-ever. If you aren't and you do (respectively) - or in other words: if you have a brain - THEN USE IT. I tire of this sloppy reasoning and bloodlust apologia.
[/b][/quote]
Faylorn, he claims the Kurds are citizens of Iraq AND he gasses them, by definition as the soverign of Iraq thus the leader of the state. he gassed his own people. stop playing semantical games.
The same thing happend is Kosovo, the Kosovars where CITIZENS of Yugoslavia, thus the Yugoslavians shooting them was repression of their own people.Even if Im not particuarly favoriable to Kosovar/Albanians they are bringing alot of trouble onto themselves. People read their history back, and the Macedonians/Slavs and Croats can practicly rember when the Turks enslaved them, so going around and shooting at your neighbors to create a "greater albiania" is going to cause a hell of alot of trouble.
Then again near as anybody can tell, despite the religious changes the Albanians are quite possibly decendents of the Illyrians, the earliest known inhabitants of the area.
Lastly Stalin only avoided conflict with the west through the wests own stupidity, one of the things Ive learned in recent years was the acts he took which frankly I would have declared war for. The first US citizen died at the hands of the Checka INSIDE the US in 1922, If I have to Ill dig up the sporting info for this, but I know its listed in several of the larger more detailed histories of the KGB.
The problem is there were so many socialist appologists who didnt realize that Stalin himself was quite possibly a worse man then Hitler
As for american acitivities during the cold war, yeah it was dirty, so were soviet actitvities and we WERE in a war for survival, it wasnt until Gorbachev took power that there was a Soviet premier who wasnt interested in playing the power politics game.
As for supporting several military dicatorships, we did, oh boy did we, but Id love to point out that all together the military dicatorships and even the "Fachists" killed less people this century then did the "vangaurd for the prolatariat"
Oh and as for the most recent problems in venezuela are you talking about the near coup that happend this year? Frankly most of the connections that link that to the CIA are suspect at best and are the result of LEFTIST propeganda, If Chavez was "SUCH" a friend of the people why was he facing large oppositon parades? why did he order a crack down that had 19 people dead? And why has he faced THREE general strikes by his OWN UNIONS?! including the one from the STATE run oil company?!
Perhaps Faylorn those of us on the "right" are not as stupid as you would like to think we are.
The more you push for a perfect socialist world, the more your going to have to spill bloody because your idology will not accept that men are not perfect, and often the most corrupt graviate to and secure power, no matter what the political/economic system is.
[This message has been edited by Tyvar (edited 10-22-2002).]
While this strategy will work in the short term, in the long run it could do more harm then good.
I also know that the 2001 budget surpluse may have been real, but this years was almost non existant and that sweeden is most likely facing several succesive years of declining tax revenue.
Sweeden has only been experiencing a 1 to 2 percent growth rate of its GDP for a while now, and in the long run even with extensive inflation controls, its not enough.
The main reason the Arabs are going after after us first is our support of Israel, you have to rember up untill the 1980's the main targets of islamic terrorist attacks WERE european and Israeli.
And honestly if the US fell tommorrow, and was gone, guess what? they would move onto you. Its more then oil, its more then money, its about power, belief and what consitutes good for humanity. Whats at stake here is the very mindsets. Honor killings or Women's lib, monothesim verses atheism.
Its so much bigger then what anybody wants to believe.
The bomings in Bali? fighting in the Philipines? extermination of christian polulations in several african countries? and you think its about [i]oil[/i]? there is a cultural war going on, and only one is going to continue to exist.
[This message has been edited by Tyvar (edited 10-22-2002).][/b][/quote]
Yep, I can agree that a lot of people in sweden are government employed, but its been that way since the 80s, because many things that are private sectors in other countries are government sectors here in sweden. Also, the government is funding many projects within the private sector. On the other hand, saying that people employed in the government sector should be viewed as unemployed is a very wierd way to look at it, no?
the main reasons the arab states attack US? There are several, for those living in Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt, probably because of the state Israel and the American backing (although Egypt is officially an ally). For Iran, they are pissed because you supplied Iraq with weapons and support during their war. For Iraq, the government is pissed because you came attacked them after they invaded Kuwait, and the people because you helped put a madman on their throne (President whatever). For Saudi Arabia, (this is according to Bin Laden) because american infidels were allowed to use their 'holy nation' as a base to attack Iraq. The rest... I have no idea.
Just keep in mind that the middle east is not 'one culture' they are many separate cultures, most very different from our western mix. Dont be so naive as to think it is one main reason.
As for the terrorist attacks, this is the only way for the poor, desperate man that sees no other way to make himself heard (esp. in Palestine). It is a terrible way to get someones attention (though so is war eh?).
Please keep discussing though.
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Talk is silver, but violence is gold.
Egypt is inhabited by the Berbers (And some others) Turky is Turkomen, Iran is Persian.
Iraq's government does hate us for the Kuwait invasion, and subsequent conflict, but I dont think the Iraqi PEOPLE worry that much about hating the US, and lastly I dont think the US had that much to do with the rise of the Ba'ath party, If I rember right, we didnt have that much against the monarchy.
The Saudi elements want the US gone because we support a tyrant, never mind that so does the rest of the world, what they are really upset about is that we didnt back their grandfather for the throne.
Iranians hated us for the shaw, however they found life under their "Islamic Republic" wasnt all it was suppost to be cracked up to be, Iran has alot of internal dessent.
The Egyptian extrimists just hate westerners,which is why they machine gun european tourists at the Pyriamids.
In general, there is alot more going on then the tired rhetoric suggests, its a culture war, and even if the US wasnt around things would be going on much like they are now. These trends were not set in the past 60 years of non US isolationism, they date back hundreds of years. Read a history book, and read it ALL the way back, its a constant chain, there are no easy breaks of continuity
[quote][b]Iraq's government does hate us for the Kuwait invasion, and subsequent conflict, but I dont think the Iraqi PEOPLE worry that much about hating the US, and lastly I dont think the US had that much to do with the rise of the Ba'ath party, If I rember right, we didnt have that much against the monarchy.[/b][/quote]
Not with the party as such, but the US government supported Saddam when he had assassinated his former leader in the party (cant remember the name). And Saddam was in contact with CIA before the assassination.
[quote][b]The Egyptian extrimists just hate westerners,which is why they machine gun european tourists at the Pyriamids.[/b][/quote]
There is always something behind hate. Saying that is the reason is like saying the North and South hated each other during the civil war, and thats why there was a war. There is always a reason.
[quote][b]"Palestine", Jordan, Iraq, Saudia Arabia, Oman, and Yemen are all inhabitied by the same ethnic/cultural group.[/b][/quote]
While some of these countries outwardly seem like the same, they have huge differences also. The US and Russia are part of the same ethnic group (mainly) and their cultures are not that far apart. Hell, Sweden and the US are the same ethnic/cultural group, that however does not make us the same.
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Talk is silver, but violence is gold.
[b]Yes, it goes back a while. The whole middle eastern area is rich with strife (if you want to sum it up real badly, you can say that Iraq = Babylon and Iran = Persia and they were on each others throats back then too). Although what I brought up was why they dislike USA so much, not why there are regional problems.
While some of these countries outwardly seem like the same, they have huge differences also. The US and Russia are part of the same ethnic group (mainly) and their cultures are not that far apart. Hell, Sweden and the US are the same ethnic/cultural group, that however does not make us the same.
[/b][/quote]
Tsk Messiah, you slipped up, go back to the
archelogy and Anthropology! books [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
I was speaking on a anthropoligical level my friend, the population groups of those states I mentioned are all from roughly one group of tribes that diverged in within the past 2 millenia or even less in many cases.
The populations of those countries are a cultural group in the same way that the Germans and austrians are a cultural group.
THEY ARE NOT DIFFERENT ETHNICITIES! the Russians are Slavs, the germans are Germanic, in Sverige its Nordic/Norse, and what ever the Lap landers are, on a anthropological setting (historicly here) these are RADICLY different in the way their cultures conducted burial pratices, worship,marrige, language, what have you. Today things are alot more closer bound due to the general shared religion, which actualy reinforces my point [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] but still not as closely bound as the various middle eastern cultures.
I think the farthest link you could argue for is the relation between the Dutch and the Germans (which is pretty far) but still much closer then say the Germans and the Slavs.
The arab culture due to fairly uniform religious practices, linguistic foundations is more homogonized then the most of the other sub groups then that of the European cultures.
Some distinctions are made, say with Lebanon, since it was a bastion of a very old culture, the phoenicians, and the christian population didnt get removed till the last part of the 20th century (alot of christan lebonese left the country)
The comparisons to the American Civil war are false, there are alot of stories about the reltaive amicability off of the battlefied between the two sides, what was occuring was a political battle. While there are numerous examples of friction after the war, they are not that great, the south has remaind a fairly solid part of the Union.
The question you need to ask more deeply then is why would egyptian radicals decide to machine gun european tourists? supporting israel? maybe, but I doubt it, supporting the US? but what about when they kill say a Swede? or is there somthing else going on?
I'm just being picky with part of your argument now, but the logic is skewed - I don't think you could realistically claim that the 'Arabs' are so culturally cohesive as to fit neatly into one ethnic bracket anymore than you could use the term 'white' or 'asian'; mass political and religious movements serve to bring societies together, but they can't erase differences in history and collective experience, which form the basis of culture and nationalism. As I've said elsewhere, whilst you might try and bracket the Palestinians as being simply 'Arabs' the last 50 years have seen the formation of a distinct national identity as a result of their experiences; and the same has been seen for many of the other nations mentioned, in history.
All of which you seem to know - but if you're going to make the distinction in an earlier post, you might as well stick to it, and try to argue it out.
Interesting debate, mind - you could go on to discuss the homogenising of Western popular culture, and the interplay of that upon the old factors of nationalism and religion.
Semantical games? You might want to explain why Iraq helps Turkery massacre its Kurdish population with Iraq's Kurdish population. This is divide and conquer: playing one side against the other intending to acquire both. Examples are plentiful in post-revolution U.S. history and much of the West's colonialist and neocolonialist eras -- the latter not being over. Kurds in the Middle East are like the Jews before World War 2, saying "don't kill them they're your people" to a Frenchman would most likely land you in the O.R.; or like the Philipine tribes when it was acquired from Spain; or, if I remember correctly, the natives in Nicaragua. Technical language means nothing in politics; in fact, language means nothing in politics; you can say anything and back it up; if its convenient to believe it will be believed; this is the purpose of information propagation (media); mainstream media tells people what they want to hear and is interlaced and backed up with [i]evidence[/i] to direct this want.
[Tyvar] The same thing happend is Kosovo, the Kosovars where CITIZENS of Yugoslavia, thus the Yugoslavians shooting them was repression of their own people.Even if Im not particuarly favoriable to Kosovar/Albanians they are bringing alot of trouble onto themselves. People read their history back, and the Macedonians/Slavs and Croats can practicly rember when the Turks enslaved them, so going around and shooting at your neighbors to create a "greater albiania" is going to cause a hell of alot of trouble.
Then again near as anybody can tell, despite the religious changes the Albanians are quite possibly decendents of the Illyrians, the earliest known inhabitants of the area.[/Tyvar]
Again technical words like "citizen" are meaningless without authoritative backup, that is violence. Racism is strong there; the only way a race survives is by assimilating or getting assimilated culturally.
[Tyvar] Lastly Stalin only avoided conflict with the west through the wests own stupidity, one of the things Ive learned in recent years was the acts he took which frankly I would have declared war for. The first US citizen died at the hands of the Checka INSIDE the US in 1922, If I have to Ill dig up the sporting info for this, but I know its listed in several of the larger more detailed histories of the KGB.[/Tyvar]
After World War 2, Truman began counter-insurgency in Greece against former anti-Nazi resistance fighters that were now Communist. They asked for support from the Soviet Union and got nothing -- no wait, they did get something: a message from Stalin to tone it down. This pattern goes straight up into Syria and Vietnam.
However, you are correct there were many times the Soviet Union took quite provacotive action against the U.S. and no action was taken due to incompetence ...or was it? I think better red than dead.
[Tyvar] The problem is there were so many socialist appologists who didnt realize that Stalin himself was quite possibly a worse man then Hitler [/Tyvar]
If you mean State-side then yes.
[Tyvar] As for american acitivities during the cold war, yeah it was dirty, so were soviet actitvities and we WERE in a war for survival, it wasnt until Gorbachev took power that there was a Soviet premier who wasnt interested in playing the power politics game. [/Tyvar]
Better red than dead means M.A.D. which means the so-called war for survival was Imperialism back and forth between the Super Powers. Though that is a war of survival there was little danger of a global thermo-nuclear war except by accident (e.g. Golda Meir).
[Tyvar] As for supporting several military dicatorships, we did, oh boy did we, but Id love to point out that all together the military dicatorships and even the "Fachists" killed less people this century then did the "vangaurd for the prolatariat"[/Tyvar]
If by "vanguard for the prolatariat" you mean the Soviet Union you mislead on one account. They are no such vanguard. Stalinism like Leninism concentrates power in the state bureaucracy and Capitalism concentrates it among investors. Workers, in both cases, get the shaft.
[Tyvar] Oh and as for the most recent problems in venezuela are you talking about the near coup that happend this year? Frankly most of the connections that link that to the CIA are suspect at best and are the result of LEFTIST propeganda, If Chavez was "SUCH" a friend of the people why was he facing large oppositon parades? why did he order a crack down that had 19 people dead? And why has he faced THREE general strikes by his OWN UNIONS?! including the one from the STATE run oil company?![/Tyvar]
[url="http://www.zmag.org/content/LatinAmerica/pilgervenez.cfm"]Pilger[/url]
[Tyvar] Perhaps Faylorn those of us on the "right" are not as stupid as you would like to think we are.
The more you push for a perfect socialist world, the more your going to have to spill bloody because your idology will not accept that men are not perfect, and often the most corrupt graviate to and secure power, no matter what the political/economic system is.
[This message has been edited by Tyvar (edited 10-22-2002).][/Tyvar]
Never said you were stupid, rather you don't understand current power trends. Furthermore, I realize that man is not perfect, that the corrupt will gravitate to and secure power and that, for society, there is no way around this; however, man cannot physically make man will something. Hypothetically, if the planet decided not to listen to authority, including military and civilian security rank and file, there would be little opposition. Evil is fought in the mind. Truth will make the democratic citzenry the ruling class; thus, excess in injustice will be reduced -- certainly the hallmark of Western Imperialism.
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