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More on the Canadians in Afghanistan
Faylorn
Elite Ranger
in Zocalo v2.0
I saw this on CBC Newsworld's Foreign Affairs: the two pilots involved were sentenced with involuntary manslaughter and aggrivated assault. Furthermore, the U.S. military is considering the possibility of a court martial. The interviewed military analyst said the two are being scape-goated (an old story). The two were not aware there was an exercise taking place and told to not engage. However, both pilots felt they were under fire and responded. The leader of the inquest gave their proximity to Kanadahar, an allied position, as partial justificiation for the charges.
My own view:
I'm not an authority on this topic but I know command is responsible for logistics which includes battlefield information. I think the inquest's above justification is bogus; strategy dictates military maneuvers which may include but is not restricted to a position. If there is fault, command and logistics is primarily where it lies. Furthermore, it's hard to imagine being in those pilots' situation and not responding the same way.
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[url="http://www.zmag.org"][i]Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.[/i][/url]
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 09-13-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 09-13-2002).]
My own view:
I'm not an authority on this topic but I know command is responsible for logistics which includes battlefield information. I think the inquest's above justification is bogus; strategy dictates military maneuvers which may include but is not restricted to a position. If there is fault, command and logistics is primarily where it lies. Furthermore, it's hard to imagine being in those pilots' situation and not responding the same way.
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[url="http://www.zmag.org"][i]Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.[/i][/url]
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 09-13-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 09-13-2002).]
Comments
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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
For me it's simple. The pilot saw gunfire, and figured it was his chance to go kill some terrorists. He disobeyed orders specifically telling him NOT to engadge. As a result four Canadian soldiers were killed, and others injured.
As one US Army officer said following this incident: "They should nail that flyboy's ass to the wall!"
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[url="http://www.alecm.com/"]Alec McClymont[/url]
3D Artist - GVFX
"Something is only impossible until it's not."
[Slade]So Faylorn, does this mean this if you were a fighter pilot requesting permission to engadge, and were DENIED, you would still attack?[/Slade]
To make sure we understand eachother: it's hard to imagine being in their [alleged] situation and not responding the same way; that is if my situation - my altitude, what I see, and the origin of the threat - looks high-risk or perilous lest I act. Furthermore, it's kind of non-sensical to know the pilot felt he was under fire, told not to engage without adding that it's allied fire from an exercise and then scorch him for responding. They may be partially at fault; I don't know; however, I definately know, from the info I've seen, that they shouldn't be blamed for a logisitics problem.
[Slade]The permission was DENIED for a reason: they were flying over a live fire exercise and US fighter command knew this.[/Slade]
U.S. Fighter Command may have known this but the pilots didn't nor were they informed. U.S. criminal and military agencies have a problem with information flow. It may differ in every case; I don't know. However, I think those that can remedy this but don't are mostly at fault. If it had been remedied this tragedy would not have happened.
[Slade]The pilot should also have been aware of his proximity to Khandahar, an Allied stronghold at the time, and figured out the likelyhood of enemy troops being in the region.[/Slade]
If you think you're under fire, in your mind, enemy troops are in the region.
[Slade]For me it's simple. The pilot saw gunfire, and figured it was his chance to go kill some terrorists. He disobeyed orders specifically telling him NOT to engadge. As a result four Canadian soldiers were killed, and others injured.
As one US Army officer said following this incident: "They should nail that flyboy's ass to the wall!"[/Slade]
Everyone to their view, but, at the very least, I hope you agree that communication in U.S. institutions needs a seeing to -- especially the U.S. military which, as a result of this problem, killed many of its own in the Gulf Conflict and others.
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[url="http://www.zmag.org"][i]Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.[/i][/url]
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 09-15-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 09-15-2002).]
(148 battle, 145 non-battle)
Total US troops in the Gulf War: >500000
[url="http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/gulf.war/facts/gulfwar/"]http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/gulf.war/facts/gulfwar/[/url]
Portion killed (in action or otherwise): <0.059%
Portion of the US population killed in accidental deaths in 1999: about 0.036%
[url="http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm"]http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm[/url]
(Population: [url="http://www.stateline.org/fact.do?factId=641"]http://www.stateline.org/fact.do?factId=641[/url] )
I think we did pretty well.
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We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!
Oh, and of course the communication needs to be improved. That's a given [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
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[url="http://www.alecm.com/"]Alec McClymont[/url]
3D Artist - GVFX
"Something is only impossible until it's not."
After they were told that they had authorization, they should not have circled back to drop the bomb.
AND yes, they should have been briefed on the area before the flight. The person responsible for giving them that breifing should also be held responsible.
Should they be charged with murder or manslaughter? I dont know. I think that should be up to the armed forces and the courts.
In the military you have to understand that there could be causes on the ground greater than his own life as a pilot that you are not aware of, and therefor shouldn't 'drop the bomb' even if you feel threatened. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
That said, I agree with the two above that the second the chain of command breaks down militaries are in trouble.
Murder; No, but I would be shocked if that was the final outcome. Manslaughter; Perhaps. Court marsial, and a big boot from the military with no benifits, for certain.
I can just imagine what would have happened if they had accidently dropped the bomb on President Karzai!
This include tanks? That's where most of the friendly fire hit pay dirt. Furthermore, the source of these stats is of interest; if from the U.S. military then the actual numbers' are, of course, a lot higher.
The rest of you: heh, heh yeah I guess I won't be joining the military any time soon.
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[url="http://www.zmag.org"][i]Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.[/i][/url]
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 09-16-2002).]
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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
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[url="http://www.zmag.org"][i]Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.[/i][/url]
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
You know, if there were a larger number of deaths I think the families or other soldiers would have spoken up by now. Coming from a long line of military folk, I would have heard rumblings. And having seen the memorials myself, if there were names missing the family members would have said something. No, I trust the numbers are correct. Let's keep our evil western government conspiracy theories in perspective.
Regarding Friendly Fire Deaths:
[b]"On one night during World War II – July 9-10, 1943 – 23 U.S. troop transports carrying paratroopers of the 82nd Airborne Division were shot down by American forces in Sicily who mistook the planes for German bombers.
The death toll in that single friendly fire incident was 410. But about 300,000 U.S. servicemen died in World War II.
Fratricide killed 35 of the 146 Americans who died in the 1991 Gulf War – 24 percent.[/b] [url="http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2002/020419-attack01.htm"]http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2002/020419-attack01.htm[/url]
I think that 24 percent is a statistical oddity because of there being so few enemy fire deaths.
Faylorn: U.S. institutions needs a seeing to -- especially the U.S. military
There is only so much money you can spend, and nothing is perfect. The US military has one of the best if not the best comm system. Nothing is perfect, and yes there are errors, but compared to the number of friendly fire casualties in past wars the Gulf Conflict was a great step forward. If you are referring to 9/11 communication break downs, the question of communication between the CIA and FBI is one of liberty and privacy.
Regarding the USAF pilots: [url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2073024.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2073024.stm[/url] [url="http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/06/29/1023864670981.html"]http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/06/29/1023864670981.html[/url]
500-pound (227 kg) laser-guided bomb
Damn, let's have fun with my tax dollars! Talk about overkill. After reading this: Manslaughter for sure.
Regarding Stingers:
They are mostly a threat to helicopters, not low flying jets. If you saw a stinger being launched at you (the trail) odds are you wouldn't stick around to drop a bomb anyway. In addition, if he was going to go to guns and shoot them up, he couldn't have felt that at risk anyway.
The numbers, if I recall correctly, include all US military deaths related to Desert Storm / Desert Shield (spanning the army, air force, etc.). The hardest number to pin down was the number of troops participating in the gulf war, as most sites seem interested only in the number of casualties. I got the impression that the total number of allied units was around 630000, with somewhere upwards of 500000 being US military.
In any case, it looks like the numbers suggest that being in the Gulf War on the US side was not much more dangerous than simply living in the US. That sounds like a well-run operation to me.
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We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!