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A look back at the first season and the original story arc.

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  • That's a good point you guys are making about how Babylon 5 would have been the space station story, and then Babylon Prime would have been the huge epic. I never really thought about that. Though to be fair, even his idea of the first show would have had things changing throughout the galaxy, like the Narn homeworld falling. Did I mention that? Maybe I'll go through my posts to make sure I've mentioned everything I want to at the end. I'm still planning on watching the last two episodes and commenting on them, then I'm going to do a more general post on my final thoughts.

    And what part in The Fall of Centauri Prime are you talking about, Seafroggys? That episode is one of my absolute favorites. When everyone talks about how sad the final episode is, I always have to disagree and say the The Fall of Centauri Prime is the saddest one. I remember when I first watched it, on it's original airing (I was in middle school I believe) and how it just depressed me for the rest of the week, but I also knew that there was no other way things could work out, and that Londo had to make the decision that he did. Over the years, Londo has become my favorite character, and meeting Peter Jurasik and having such a great time with him has only made me an even bigger Londo fan.
  • Well there's two emotional moments, one of them is G'Kar forgiving Londo. That was another scene that I blanked on from memory until I watched it when I was 17. But the scene I was referring to specifically was after Londo made his speech to the people, and he asked everyone to leave, and the bells started ringing as he remembered his life during the past 5 years through flashbacks. The music really makes that scene. It hit me so hard, like a ton of bricks.

    I still think SiL is the saddest by far, I'd say to this day is remains the saddest 'media' I have ever experienced (TV show, book, movie, music, everything). But Fall of Centauri Prime, while I always liked and always knew it was a great episode, really went up a couple of notches for me as I grew older.
  • The Quality of Mercy isn't much of an arc episode, and there isn't really much to say about it concerning the original arc. Sinclair is barely in it, so there's nothing to say about him. The healing machine first shows up in this episode, and it reminds me of something though. In the second season, they use it to heal Garibaldi, but in behind the scenes notes, it's revealed that this was one of a few things considered to heal Garibaldi. A little bit of Deathwalker's immortality serum left behind was also considered, and it also mentions the idea of Garibaldi having some sort of exoskeleton for the rest of the series. It's eventually used by Marcus to save Ivanova, but who knows if it would have returned originally. I'm also wondering about Janice, the daughter of the healing woman, was she supposed to come back? Was she meant to be a steady girlfriend of Franklin's? It's just the way they spoke at the end of the episode that made me wonder about that.

    Some people seem to be skeptical about JMS planning on Talia Winters always having her Psi Corps control personality, but I don't doubt it, since Takashima was supposed to have one, and I think that there was plenty of foreshadowing with Talia. JMS said that they would keep filming her looking into a mirror for example, and there's her line in this episode "The things that live in inside us, Mr. Garibaldi... terrible things... terrible..." I remember that in the foreword for the script for Spider in the Web, Lawrence DiTillio said that he thought JMS just came up with that when Andrea Thompson left which meant Talia would have to leave, but I don't doubt at all that this was always planned for her. I have a feeling that it would have come up eventually, maybe in the later part of season 2 or something, and they would have found a way to return her to normal, like they talk about at the end of Divided Loyalties.
  • DarthCaligulaDarthCaligula Elite Ranger
    edited January 2017
    So I've finally gotten to Chrysalis, and the end of this examination of the first season. I'm thinking of watching War Without End again, just to compare how the foreshadowing was changed, and as a sort of send off for Sinclair and Michael O'Hare, but we're now at the point when there's not really anything left to examine, and in the context of the original plan, there are quite a few interesting things in this episode.

    Londo asks what the price will be for all the help Morden and his associates are offering him, and Morden says that some day they'll ask him for a favor. I have a strong feeling that this would come up in season five, when Londo has great power within his government, so that he can help to destroy the gigantic Vorlon ship and kill hundreds of thousands of Vorlons. It's likely that with his influence, Londo would be able to arrange something to either make sure no one knows what happened in the area, or maybe to frame Earth for it, since the original plan says that Earth is blamed for the attack.

    Sinclair and Catherine Sakai become engaged, and Catherine says July would work best for her. Since we know that at the end of season three Catherine would have been "mind raped", probably having the same thing done to her that we see happen to Anna Sheridan, I really have to wonder about this. There's been a lot of speculation by fans that this would have happened, something similar to Anna, and the most popular theory is that she would be out in her ship doing her job, and she'd disappear, captured by the Shadows to be used for a ship. The novel To Dream in the City of Sorrows has almost this exact event happen to her, with her only surviving because of a message Sinclair sent her secretly warning her. So the big question here is when this would have happened. Would they have gotten married and lived together on the station for at least the rest of season two? Would she disappear, and due to the fact that there is no trace of her, would Sinclair have tried to find out, maybe his search for Catherine becoming something that would come up every few episodes, with him sometimes going out into space trying to find clues, getting in the way of his duty as station commander? Whatever the case, like I said earlier, Sinclair leaving the show was the best possible thing for Catherine Sakai the character, since she gets to avoid this terrible fate, and it's strongly implied instead that she somehow, against all odds, ends up in the same time as Valen and they live happily ever after.

    I really have to wonder about the question Delenn had Lennier ask Kosh. In the show as it is, it's eventually revealed (I believe in the episode In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum) that her question was "Have the Shadows returned to Z'ha'dum", but we don't know if this was the case originally. Kosh knows about the prophecy, and even at this point may have even personally known Valen himself. What was Delenn asking about? It obviously has to do with the prophecy, but what exactly? Lennier doesn't seem to understand the implications, but the script doesn't point out how he acts in this scene at all. Maybe Lennier is just supposed to be surprised by everything and how the device Delenn is building turned out.

    There's something interesting about that lurker that tells Garibaldi about Petrov and Devereaux. You might remember that the same guy appears later as part of the telepath underground railroad. I always wondered if that was intentional, or if they just cast the same guy. The script shows that this was most likely intentional:

    "INT. LURKER TENT

    A couple of chairs, what might be a mattress, and a few other personal items. It's surprisingly neat. Garibaldi takes stock, finds the LURKER who called him."

    To me at least this seems to be saying that this guy is important, and his organized nature and the fact that he's hiding in a tent go with the idea that he's a strong telepath trying to keep control, kind of like what we see Jason Ironheart doing earlier. I'll check the script for A Race Through Dark Places later to see if he's specified to be the same guy, which I think is the case. I have a feeling that he tried to be polite and not intrude on his friends' thoughts, and this incident where he could have saved Petrov might be something he regrets for a long time.

    G'kar figures out that there's someone else out there, and goes to investigate. I find this pretty interesting as well. With how much more drawn out the story would have been, for how long would G'kar have suspected the Shadows were involved, and how long would it take for him to convince others? This might be a sign that JMS was already planning on speeding up his arc.

    And what would Delenn have revealed to Sinclair after she came out? Just how much of the prophecy would she let him in on? There is no indication that Minbari souls were supposed to be moving into humans, but this may have been part of JMS's plan. All we know is that during the Battle of the Line Earthforce pilots were taken in, interrogated and tortured, and that one of the members of the Grey Council suspected that the prophecy was at hand, and that Sinclair himself was important it would seem. After all, we hear Delenn speak Valen's words about the One who will come, bringing death, and Sinclair was going to ram their ship. Everything seems to indicate that it's only Sinclair that matters here, and just how much would she let him know about why they surrendered?

    And that's the big thing here. We're just left with a lot of questions that we can only piece together by looking at the original plan, behind the scenes notes, various things mentioned in the first season scripts, and how the show ended up. I said this before, but I think that all the foreshadowing makes much more sense in the context of the original plan. I revealed all the information about Babylon Prime and pretty much everything else that would have been different in Babylon 5 itself, so if any of you want to go watch the episodes, you'll probably have just as much hope as me in figuring this stuff out.

    JMS was ridiculously ambitious with this show, but better that than having low goals I'd say. I can only imagine how the fans would have reacted to the final episode of the show, with the station being blown up. Knowing how hard it was for this show to even end, and then how they couldn't manage to make a spin off show, we may never have had any conclusion to the story, just left with the station being destroyed by the Minbari and Shadows, with Sinclair, Delenn, and their child on the run.

    I've got some more thoughts on all this that I'll save for a bit later.
  • Well I'm glad I took so long to get to my thoughts on this since it's given me a lot of time to think. Mostly I've been thinking about Takashima, her control, and the Psi Corps in general. After thinking about it for a while, I've come up with an idea that I think might have been what was intended, but I have to make it clear this is pure speculation. JMS has stated before about how Takashima was going to be the one to shoot Garibaldi in the back at the end of the first season, after he discovers the plan to kill Santiago. It's easy to assume that she would have been found out within a couple episodes, like what happened with Garibaldi's second in the show, but I've started thinking on something else.
    What if Garibaldi had Lyta scan him, but then it turns out that the reflective surface in front of him was obscured, so maybe all he could find out was what hand the person fired with or something? What I mean is, Garibaldi can't find out who it was, and this is something that bothers him throughout the second season, with us, the audience, shown the truth as it happened in Chrysalis. So throughout the second season, we also see Takashima being taken over by her control, sending information to Psi Corps, or in general interfering with some things, like Sinclair and Garibaldi trying to find out more about Santiago's assassination and just who it was that shot Garibaldi. Then at the end of the second season, Sinclair comes across some information or something and while in the core shuttle with only Takashima, he explains this, and her control takes over, opens a door, and throws him out. It was already planned that Kosh would save him, so there was likely going to be something in the garden area with the aliens already. So Kosh saves him, and Sinclair tells Garibaldi about how Takashima tried to kill him. The first episode of the third season is dedicated to a manhunt for Takashima, with Sinclair closing off the station, denying any jump gate access, that sort of thing. The problem of course is that Takashima's control, living inside her, knows a lot about the station, so it's up to Sinclair and Garibaldi to use their own knowledge and skills, along with the rest of the station staff of course, to catch her.
    I'd imagine she is caught, maybe there's a big shootout, and they interrogate her. During the course of the interrogation, the fact that her entire personality is different is extremely obvious, and they wonder about this. We'd probably also have Lyta want to talk to her, since by the end of the second season, their relationship would have finally progressed enough that they would be in a romantic relationship (I could see this only lasting an episode or two before everything goes to hell with the end of the second season), and we'd probably get a similar exchange as what we see with Susan and Talia, when the new Talia is insulting Susan. In the end, Sinclair's superiors involved with the Psi Corps/Clark conspiracy order that she be sent back to Earth for her treason trial, and of course she's never heard from again, though they would have figured out what the truth is behind this, maybe thinking back to Ironheart's warning about Psi Corps trying to control everything.
    If I were a better writer, I might actually try writing a fan fiction with this basic story...

    Of course, looking at the show, Talia and Garibaldi's second take over the role that Takashima would have had, but with the way it worked out, I don't think it's nearly as effective as it was intended, like how Talia's revelation was just too abrupt (due to Andrea Thompson leaving the show, since she didn't feel she was getting enough material), but we also see this basic idea return, and in a very effective way, with Garibaldi in the fourth season. That whole storyline in the fourth season with Garibaldi being manipulated by Bester to root out a conspiracy against Psi Corps was just great, and it's an excellent example of just how terrible the Psi Corps is. My only real complaint is that Garibaldi gets out too good really. I think it would have been better if at the very least we saw Garibaldi not be able to even trust himself anymore, never knowing just what was left in his mind by Bester.
  • I've got some more thoughts, mostly about Valen, but I'll get to that later.
  • David of MacDavid of Mac Elite Ranger Ca
    I like your idea of Takashima as an unknown-to-the-characters villain throughout the second season (sort of a Boomer in BSG thing). I definitely don't think that she would've been found out in early season two. The way Jack was discovered as-is is really bullshitty (what luck that Garibaldi was shot in the only hallway in all of Babylon 5 to contain a random mirror/polished bit of metal, and that Jack positioned himself so his face was reflected. I guess you could fanwank the last part, that he wanted to see Garibaldi's face to make sure he had the drop on him).
  • DarthCaligulaDarthCaligula Elite Ranger
    edited January 2017
    I take it more that Jack and the others just plain didn't notice that the reflective surface was there, so by a great coincidence, it was there for Garibaldi to see when Talia helped him relive the moment.
    By the way, this is from the script:

    "Suddenly, we HEAR a PPG FIRING. Garibaldi straightens, his face a mask of pain and astonishment. He drops to his knees, and falls. As he falls, we can now see PAST HIM...to where his Aide holds a PPG. His own Aide has just shot him in the back. (We should see some reflective object between Garibaldi and Devereaux, a mirror or canister on his line of sight.)"

    I remember trying to see if that object really is there, but I couldn't find it. Maybe the shots they ended up using just didn't show it off. There's also a part that's not in the episode, right before then. Garibaldi goes to a transport tube but it isn't working, obviously this would be because of Jack and the others.

    I was also thinking of Boomer when I wrote all that, but I don't think that I was really inspired by it, even though both have an Asian woman who is taken control of by something inside of her to shoot a friend at the end of the first season. Mostly my theory depends on the fact that JMS wanted to depict a lesbian relationship between Takashima and Lyta, which changed to Ivanova and Talia, but there just wasn't enough time to see this. Something I think JMS did very well was in how he depicted romantic relationships building, like how it takes so long before Sheridan and Delenn really get anywhere, and how Marcus keeps loving Ivanova, hoping she'll eventually change her mind about him, and of course, Lennier with his unrequited love that he really should have just given up on once it became clear that Sheridan and Delenn were together for sure. So like I said, it seems so awkward in season 2 when Talia and Susan are suddenly together in Divided Loyalties. It was clearly slowly building up, so it all just seems so abrupt. It's true that while he kept much of the basic idea of Takashima's control while still altering things, I still don't think that the first season alone would be enough to get the relationship anywhere.
  • Now about Valen, I said before my idea that he might have been a Centauri that used the Chrysalis, but another idea occurred to me. There was one other way of seeing into the future shown in the first season, the Great Machine. All we really know is that it's super powerful and that Varn had been in the Great Machine for 500 years, and that the others of his kind that show up have been searching for longer than that. So what if Valen had used it in the Shadow War 1,000 years ago and with it, saw glimpses of the future? It's not very clear just how much of the future the caretaker of the Great Machine can see, Varn says "He will see all the tomorrows", but we don't really know just how much of the future they know of. I really doubt that Draal knows that Babylon 5 will be destroyed in a few years once he gets in, and Varn might not have known as well. Like Ladira's vision, or Londo's dream, it's probably pretty vague. It's just something I really wonder about. Well, if that was the case, that would be one hell of a coincidence that Babylon 5 is right next to it! Not that ridiculous coincidences didn't happen all the time in this show!
  • FreejackFreejack Jake the Not-so-Wise
    On your last point, one of the running threads in the show, at least in the Delenn's mind, is that the universe is a conscience unto itself. From that point of view there are no ridiculous coincidences, just the universe trying to take action.

    Jake
  • croxiscroxis I am the walrus
    I've always interpreted "see all the tomorrows" as seeing all the possible futures
  • That's a pretty good idea too, I never thought about that. Then again, it's not a line I thought much about before at all. I don't know if Valen was supposed to have used the Great Machine, but it's something that came to mind after watching all of this again in the original context. The big problem is that we don't know what things JMS had planned to introduce as well, new information that we wouldn't learn about until the second season for example, but was dropped when he had to let go of Sinclair. The fact that the Great Machine isn't mentioned at all in the original plan let's me speculate quite a bit I suppose. At the very least, Draal's comments about how he'll help when the time is right is most likely referring to Babylon 4, like in the show as it is.
  • CanavandriveCanavandrive Registered User
    I bought the B5 Collector's dvd last year and I'm still waiting on opening it. I want to find the perfect girl to share it with, I figure the soapy aspects of B5 will be enough to convert said girlfriend when and if I find the appropriate girl.
  • Another thing that came to mind is that it was clearly JMS's intent that the Shadows had found Clark and helped set things up to kill Santiago so Clark could become president of the Earth Alliance, so Clark and the Psi Corps conspiracy were allied with a powerful alien group that they of course didn't fully understand. Like I said, I think that by looking at the original plan and what JMS wrote in a couple scripts it's most likely that the Shadows would have also found allies within the Warrior Caste of the Minbari near the end of the show, so what's really interesting here is that JMS's original plan states that the Warrior Caste also resumes the Earth-Minbari War. So this means that the Shadows are behind the scenes on both sides of this war, and in the show itself, they do exactly this with the Centauri and the League worlds. JMS says that the Shadows want to control everything in sight as part of their resistance to the Vorlons, and this also seems pretty consistent with what we eventually learn about the Shadows. They want to promote conflict to drive evolution, but of course, they only want it done their way, so by getting involved with the governments of the Minbari and Earth, they would have control over this war, and might be able to ensure that warfare keeps spreading everywhere, destroying the Vorlon objective of perfect order.
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