[QUOTE=Entil'Zha;180375]It's not that they gave it up per se, but how easily they gave it up, with no resistance.
As for the fossils, i know that not every fossil gets found, but either the cylons stayed, in which case there should be dozens if not hundreds of metal bits (we never did learn how many cylons stayed) or they had to leave on their own, we also already know the cylons live a very very long time, so are those models still walking around 150,000 years later? [/QUOTE]
At that point, after all they'd been through... I'd have given it up just as easily. HOLY SHIT! A blue planet! With Fruit! and Fresh water! And i can build a house and get the frak away from these people i've been cramped with? FRAK YEA. Yea, i'd give it all up too.
Humanoid Cylons don't have any metal parts. They're just as organic as we are, part of the dicodomy of the show has been how we treat them as machines when they're really as human as we are. There are only some real subtle DNA level differences. As for the red glowing spines... well we don't talk about those anymore, that was just your imagination. :)
[QUOTE=PSI-KILLER;180377]they never showed why Kara just disapperaed or who built her new Viper. That sorta pissed me off. @ EntiZha, channel 717[/QUOTE]
Kara just disappeared because she was an angel of god, just like head six. Her purpose was served, her journey complete. So like the others, she just vanished, presumably to the afterlife. No one built her viper, it was there just as she was. It was an angel viper... If they hadn't burned it up in the sun before she dissapeared, it would have vanished when she did. God/Higher Power made it.
[QUOTE=WORF;180380]So I was right, the Earth they found before wasn't our Earth! :D
I thought it was a great ending and I don't mind at all that certain mystical elements weren't explained. We've seen that happen before, midichlorians anyone?
The human form Cylons don't have any synthetic components, no metal or anything like that in their bodies and as already pointed out it was very hard for the Colonials to identify Cylons with all their technology. How can modern day humanity be expected to tell the difference especially after 150,000 years of cross breeding with humans and Cylon?
Also did anyone notice the cameo by Ronald Moore at the end?
Worf[/QUOTE]
Yea but i wanted to know who those frakking angels were! Seriously :p. And yea, who knows, we could have found cylon remains but have had no idea of their significance. Their genetic differences could easily by chalked up to evolutionary differences in the species.
Well, speaking of the battle, just to pick one thing to make a quick comment on, I remember Hutzel saying he was hoping they'd be able to bring the old Centurions back after "Razor." It does make me a little curious about their place in things, though. Did Cavil have them chipped like the new models (making him even more of a bastard, since he used their enslavement by humans to justify all his evil acts), or were they still as sentient as the day they rebelled? If the latter, did they have some "in" with the humanoid cylons (say, Cavil was their representative), or were they just enjoying retirement and didn't give a shit what happened outside the Colony?
I also remember how Moore said in one commentary how he's always hesitant to do another space battle, because he's not sure how to top the last one, even though they always, always do. This was no exception, from the opening moments when it looked like Galactica would be sliced to pieces before firing a shot, to the gutting of the starboard pod (really, what were they going to use it for, anyway?) to the positively epic breaching of the Colony... pitch-perfect.
I honestly have nothing to complain about regarding the battle. At some points, the internal CGI/compositing was a bit poorly calibrated, but shit...that's trivial. It was an incredible half-hour of adrenaline pumping action, followed by nearly a solid hour of straight emotion. It was perfect. It was epic. It was everything I had hoped and dreamed for with none of the Deus Ex Machina I had feared. Cheap shortcuts weren't taken anywhere.
The plot itself, the entire story, the arc closures were not without flaw, but powerful to the point of making any of these problems irrelevant. It was the perfect case of solid writing as performed by a devoted cast producing a performance many directors could only dream of.
Crazy, Funny, Happy, Sad. I loved it all. Vorlons and I tended to be among the more harsh critics of this show, but it's fairly obvious that the show's continuing willingness to grant the audience the ability to think has kept us around, and this finale offered us the perfect balance of everything.
I'm perfectly content knowing that a few threads were ignored, left unresolved, or simply retconned out of existence because of how much care was taken in ensuring the comprehensive completion of what was truly important, as well as providing a grander meaning which didn't make me feel like a fool for having seen it.
BSG will be missed. It's truly rare that we get shows which operate like this. I hope Caprica will find its legs and give us another solid run, but it seems improbable.
I have to say that while a lot of what happened I would have never expected just 5 episodes ago I was still extremely satisfied with the end result. It was a totally worthy ending which is not something easily done.
I think most threads were tied up rather well. Head Six and Head Baltar were always one of the main things I wanted to see resolved. It didn't quite go how I would have liked but I still find it satisfactory that they fully revealed themselves finally to both Caprica and Baltar. Their mysterious purpose kind of works out at the end.
The one element I really did not like was Starbuck. It was quite sloppy how it was resolved. I think it was a cop out to just have her dissapear and leave the rest to the imagination. Why was Leoben so obsessed with her, what about daniel and her ressurection, and in the end what did the harbringer of death really mean? I figured it might have had something to do with the final death of the Cavil cylons but she was really just another player among many when it came to that.
They've been saying a lot of stuff about death, actually, so there are a few possibilities. Baltar said that only those who were willing to embrace death would receive new life. A lot of people assumed that meant that only the people who went on the suicide mission with Adama would live and the Fleet would be destroyed in the meantime, but I actually think it tied in with what Natalie said back at the beginning of the alliance with the rebel cylons. The Cylon rebels, by giving up on resurrection, embraced their mortality and eventually became a part of the new life on Earth, whereas the orthodox Cylons, who struggled mightily to preserve their immortality, ended up being utterly destroyed in the attempt.
Speaking of, in "Guess What's Coming To Dinner," they implied that the "death" Kara was harbinging was the destruction of the Resurrection Hub. On the other hand, "harbinger" also means forerunner or precursor and, interestingly, comes from a word referring to a valet who went ahead of an army or caravan in order to secure lodgings for them (God bless the person who put an integrated dictionary into Mac OS X). Well, the last of these senses is obvious. Kara went ahead to Cylon Earth in advance of the Fleet and prepared the way, but metaphorically speaking, she also was an example of what Baltar said. She died, accepting that her end had come, but then began a new life, just like the settlers of New Earth did by accepting the end of the lives they had known in the Colonies and the Fleet, and the necessity of starting anew.
Now, the most interesting thing to me is actually the last thing the First Hybrid said; "They must not follow her." Well, why did he think so? Anders and the Modern Hybrid disagreed, passing no judgement on that fate Kara Thrace led everyone to. I have a couple of ideas. One is simply that the First Hybrid didn't trust God or Fate, and that's why he had his Centurions steal him away when the Final Five arrived and offered to give them flesh bodies. He thought the Colonial Cylons were better off on their own, without any external interference from Earth, or God, or whomever. The other thing would be, given his intonation of the "All of this has happened before, and all this will happen again" credo, that he was in favor of the cycle continuing forever, and he knew that letting Kara fulfill her destiny meant an end to that cycle.
So, if Kara was an 'angel,' how did she punch in the numbers for the FTL jump? I don't buy it. And the evidence doesn't support it.
And why is it that only Helo's family and Baltar (of all people!) can live happily ever after in the end, so far as the main players are concerned? What kind of peace did Apollo find?
There was plenty to like about the finale, but in my opinion, much of it felt like they just went, "um, okay let's do it this way; who cares if we can't explain it, we'll just say 'it's a mystery!' and be all deep and stuff."
Sorry, after 4 years, I feel like I deserve more closure than that. I guess I just became too emotionally invested in Kara's story, or read too deep into things like her father, knowing the Watchtower song, her fingers being broken, her time in the Farm, Flashbacks with her, Lee and Zack, FINDING HER BONES ON EARTH AFTER HER SHIP BLEW UP LIGHT YEARS AWAY, and other little tidbits.
[QUOTE=RedAssAg05;180399]So, if Kara was an 'angel,' how did she punch in the numbers for the FTL jump? I don't buy it. And the evidence doesn't support it.[/QUOTE]
Remember how they kept downplaying the wire gag where Head Six physically picked up Baltar in a manner that he could not have accomplished unassisted back in "Escape Velocity," while he was getting beat up by the marine, and they said the director overstepped himself and they really didn't mean to establish that the head characters could have a physical presence or effect on the material world? I think, in retrospect, that might've been bullshit, and they fully intended to establish that head characters could have an effect on the material world, in order to set the stage for the Kara revelation.
[QUOTE=RedAssAg05;180399]So, if Kara was an 'angel,' how did she punch in the numbers for the FTL jump? I don't buy it. And the evidence doesn't support it.
And why is it that only Helo's family and Baltar (of all people!) can live happily ever after in the end, so far as the main players are concerned? What kind of peace did Apollo find?[/QUOTE]
Just because she was an "angel" doesn't mean she had no physical form. She was an entity brought back to life by some larger force, completely intact in her previous form. What's to say this entity couldn't simply whisk her off once her task was completed? Head character or not, it is beyond the scope of our perception to really understand [B]how[/B]. Trying to explain [B]how[/B] everything functions is one of the unnecessary burdens modern scifi writers seem to be weighed down with, when the answer we generally feel more comfortable or content with is [B]why[/B] things work. Kara Thrace completed her function and was brought back after finishing up her relationships. But I digress. [I]Magic[/I], that's how she did it.
Implication on part of Head Baltar and Six was clear that the innocent, inconsequential life to be lived out applied to everyone else in this new society as well, that things would go well and be generally peaceful. Helo and Athena were our representative for the rest of the now-Earthbound humans.
As far as Lee goes, he seemed to be pretty clear in stating what exactly he'd be doing. Lee will go exploring. Lee will find mountains to climb, trails to map, and the local fragments of society to interact with. He'll be fine.
[QUOTE=Vorlons in my Head]The one element I really did not like was Starbuck. It was quite sloppy how it was resolved. I think it was a cop out to just have her dissapear and leave the rest to the imagination. Why was Leoben so obsessed with her, what about daniel and her ressurection, and in the end what did the harbringer of death really mean? I figured it might have had something to do with the final death of the Cavil cylons but she was really just another player among many when it came to that.[/quote]
Point by point...
Starbuck's vanishing, I cover that above.
Leoben was a man of intense faith. While his infiltrator personas were seemingly so shifty and untrustworthy, his core being was one of faith and loyalty to the "greater plan," whatever that may have been. He saw the signs, he listened to prophecy (no doubt overheard some of the hybrid utterances on his own time and accumulated some awareness of how things "worked") and realized her significance. I do agree that the switch in his handling of their relationship was somewhat abrupt, but it makes sense with a good understanding of his actual character.
Daniel was [B]not intended to be anything remotely significant[/B]. It was a screw-up on part of the creators of the show, none of whom even fathomed the possibility of the fans taking the quick name-drop and running with it so strongly. In retrospect, the Daniel concept makes [B]incredible[/B] sense with how things could have worked out and really fits into the puzzle well. Perhaps a Daniel-centric conclusion could have worked better than what we got, but that would have required more time to develop the story than they had.
I felt her resurrection made sense with the situation we were presented with. Starbuck died "before her time." She had a prophecy to uphold, and through divine intervention was able to bring the story to its conclusion. The powers that be brought her back in a form able to finish the sequence and bring this group to a home.
[quote=Wikipedia (Is not a source!)]A harbinger is a sign of things to come. Throughout history and literature, harbingers and omens figure prominently, and are responsible for major decisions which have altered the course of both.[/quote]
[quote=Rebel Basestar Hybrid]Thus will it come to pass. A dying leader will know the truth of the Opera House. The missing Three will give you the Five who come from the home of the Thirteenth. You are the harbinger of death, Kara Thrace. You will lead them all to their end. End of Line. [/quote]
Harbinger of Death is a lovely term. It doesn't necessarily need to literally mean anything. My interpretation remains that she was [B]the sign[/B] that the end of the cycle of time was near. She would be responsible for its conclusion by way of her very existence. Her actions would factor into its completio and would lead to humanity finding its own end, whatever or wherever that may be. In this case, humanity and the remaining humanoid cylons landed on Earth and started anew. Upon her completing this task and being able to successfully resolve her emotional position with Lee Adama, she was recalled. Her task was done, time to move on.
[quote=The First Hybrid]Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death. They must not follow her. [/quote]
Two options present themselves for the First Hybrid's statement. Starting straight off, it's clear The First Hybrid's intentions were not quite inline with the rest of those of the Cylon race as a whole, otherwise it would have joined up with the Final Five-led group and retreated to its home space to pursue work on organic Cylon forms. Instead, it retreated off into space where it took up a position of near worship, attempting to continue its research into creating a new transcendental being, doing its thing in practical solitude until the fleet encountered it. The First Hybrid attempted to ward Shaw off in an effort for self-preservation of the status quo. Starbuck's destiny is straight-up opposed to any notion of a stable, pure Cylon society.
My single genuinely strong complaint about the episode was its conclusion. The Flash Forward to New York City was fine to me. The implication that Hera was the "Mitochondrial Eve" added significant weight to her place in the story and cemented her value. The Hendrix version of the song was fine, as it added a more modern twist to the show and tied it into where things stand now. The montage of robots and AIs, however, was [I]completely frakking ridiculous[/I] and really detracted from what had just happened. It was a completely different pace and style, adding [I]no value [/I]to the show and diminishing the significance of that just achieved across the entire finale! They could have simply removed the scene and aired the credits at a normal pace with the Hendrix tune laid on top and left everyone so much happier.
I think Baltar and Caprica ending up together might have been my favorite part of the finale.
I also LIKED Kara dissapearing, but i didnt like the lack of explination, (and the timing, i thought she should have dissapeared when galactica jumped to earth, but that would have frakked up the end of Lee's story)
I feel as if almost any attempt to explain it would reduce the significance of what had just happened. Explaining anything simply takes away from the ability to get out of it what you wish, and spending the time to do so simply lessens the impact of its suddenness.
Well, what I get out of it is that they didn't have a good explanation for many key points and so decided to leave it up to the viewer to derive their own conclusions.
If they are going to explain them in TV movies then fine, but if that's it...I have to derive enough conclusions in my own life. While I don't necessarily want to be spoon-fed plot material, I at least want something more satisfying in a season finale.
Chalking it all up to a 'mysterious' higher power that would be 'less mysterious' if they explained it (according to RDM in a recent interview that I read somewhere out in cyberspace but cannot cite right now and therefore has little legitimacy) feels VERY ill-considered and amateurish compared to the thought that went into many other aspects of the series. As a result, it really makes me rethink how much thought really DID go into other aspects of the plot.
Did I hate the finale? No. Lots of things I liked about it. But I definitely feel cheated. So does my wife. But maybe that's just us.
Maybe we're just suckers for 'Hollywood endings.' While I didn't necessarily expect (or want) a perfect 'happy' ending with a bow, I was not left with much at all in the way of hope. For humanity? Yes. For the characters that we have come to know and care about over the past four years, who RDM himself said it is ALL ABOUT? No. No hope at all.
As my wife put it, "I didn't realize it was going to be a tragedy."
[QUOTE=Entil'Zha;180392]Oh yeah, and did anyone notice the snippit of Original Galactica theme in there during the ep?[/QUOTE]
That was a really nice touch. Found it quite a touching moment actually.
My wife and I just started watching this season, and we were both excited about the conclusion, but we had different opinions about Kara's conclusion. I am completely OK with the way she was handled. The interactions with the devine by their very nature are A: Never easily understood and B: Never begin/end in a logical manner.
I agree with Sanfam, good intellegent story telling allows us to continue questioning after the story is done, filling in our own blanks. Additionally good storytelling doesn't allow the observer to know more the collective knowledge of the characters, explaining Kara's fate further would have required revelations to one or more characters that would have unduely altered that character's behavior.
I don't know. I always have a problem when in science fiction too much is left up to the devine. I'll leave that to fantasy. I expect everything to have a cause and an explainable reason. Explaining things as devine lends itself to being a short cut and easy way out which is how I feel about Kara's resolution.
I disagree that good writing leaves things up to the imagination. if a writer has a story to tell, then tell the damn story, don't say "Ok, i've written this bit, but the rest thats up to you to figure out" I find that incredibly poor writing.
It's a ploy to get us all to buy the special limited edition director's cut BSG bonus DVD/BD box set with a shredded piece of Number Six's red dress and watch the show several times over to grasp every little detail we might have missed of it before. :D
I really enjoyed the show's final episode. Of course it wasn't perfect, but then I didn't expect it to be. Great acting by the cast, great visuals, great score.
I liked how they contrasted civilization as we know it with all its excesses with the primitive tribes that once populated this planet with its (deceptively romantic) simple pleasures. As some of you have noticed yourselves, I too have a problem with the new settlers not hesitating to leave their past behind and have all their space ships fly into the sun. I suppose this may make sense to the show's creators, but it doesn't hold up to reality. Ok, we are a technologically advanced civilization stranded on a primitive life-supporting planet and the first thing we are going to do is dump all the tools and means that took our ancestors thousands of years to develop and send them off into the sun. Yeah, right. Even Enterprise made more sense here showing how survivors used pieces of their ships to build their colony. I guess this is where the show entered into the realm of poetry and I guess we can be thankful that RDM isn't an engineer by trade. :D
I was really caught off guard by Kara's sudden disappearance at the end. A so-called WTF moment. :D I don't think she was an Angel quite like the others were, since she wasn't really aware of who she was. I mean as far as she was concerned she only lost consciousness in that exploding Viper incident. Only when she discovered her charred remains on the planet surface did she realize something was not right with her. She wasn't in control of her destiny, the higher power was.
Anyway, this has indeed been a great moment to remember in scifi history.
Now we have to wait again for that darn box set to come out, dammit. ;)
I realize they had to do the leaving behind of technology in order for it to play into the ancestors of earth sort of thing. Unfortunately that was unrealistic. You could say it was their duty to the legacy of those billions that died on the colonies to preserve that history and all their discovery.
I wonder what happened to all the other cylons in Caprica, the cylon homeworld, all the other basetars? Did all the remnants of the cylon really just boil down to one crippled basestar full of sixes, eights and two's? What about the fleet full of basetars with the other cavils?
Not the kind of end I would have liked to see, but all episodes counted together it was a good run.
Of course, spoilers ahead.
It may sound like blasphemy or something, but I silently laughed in my mind that I needed to wait so long to see that annoying Rosslyn die.. And at the same time I felt artificial sadness towards Adama for his loss. The the long wait was not worth it.
Anyway, someone said that Cylons had a plan. What a terrible plan that was... To resurrect in form of Asimo. The last seconds probably explained more than anything did on the show, it was just about robotics. Unavoidable is going to happen, and we cant change it. The question is how bad it will be...
[QUOTE=Vorlons in my Head;180415]I wonder what happened to all the other cylons in Caprica, the cylon homeworld, all the other basetars? Did all the remnants of the cylon really just boil down to one crippled basestar full of sixes, eights and two's? What about the fleet full of basetars with the other cavils?[/QUOTE]
My bet is that the civil war took care of them pretty well. It's quite probable that the various actions of the civil war that occurred off-screen had a strong impact on the Cylon presence in the universe. My suspicion is that Cavil (or one of his model) liberally dispensed atomic weapons and made quick work of the opposition both in space and on the ground, likely sacrificing many of his own side to get it done faster. He didn't really view the fleet as much of any significant threat until the hub went down and appeared to continue toying with them for quite some time. This was likely followed by a retreat to the colony to get cracking on re-creating resurrection.
[QUOTE=Entil'Zha;180359]I dunno, i think i kind of didnt like it. I mean i was ok with a lot of it, but some felt very Deus Ex Machina to me[/quote]
There was a lot of Deus Ex Machina in it, which is fine by me, since they explicitly stated through the series that it seemed like a power was manipulating them behind the scenes (Oh, and implying that Ronald D Moore did not like being called god was a fine touch).
The most obvious device they left was the dead pilot firing the nukes, but as I said before, it was ok since it made sense in the background.
[QUOTE=Entil'Zha;180359]I did feel vindicated about it being earth in the past though, i said last season that when they finally got to earth it would be earth of the past[/QUOTE]
And you were not alone. ;)
[QUOTE=Entil'Zha;180361] Spoiler: The funny thing is, when Kara was inputting the jump coorinates, and talking about not being forgotten, i turned to my wife and said that Kara was going to be gone when the ship rematerialized after the jump[/QUOTE]
I did the exact same thing! (Except I have no wife, and my neighbours probably dont like that voice in the walls that keep talking about wierd stuff at 1 am..)
[QUOTE=Entil'Zha;180375]As for the fossils, i know that not every fossil gets found, but either the cylons stayed, in which case there should be dozens if not hundreds of metal bits[/QUOTE]
Except that the humanoid cylons are more like [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replicant]replicants[/quote], theyre parts are all organic, theyre engineered humans so to speak. see them as genetically engineered humans, and you wont be far off.
[QUOTE=RedAssAg05;180399]And why is it that only Helo's family and Baltar (of all people!) can live happily ever after in the end, so far as the main players are concerned? What kind of peace did Apollo find? [/QUOTE]
Life is not fair?
Baltar played his part, he was played for the most part and I dont think he should be punished for most of the things he did, he was a coward, and he was not an innocent, but in the end. e played his part.
I never liked Roslyn, she was a zealot in many ways, and I did not mourn her when she died, I did however mourn Bills loss, he was a good man and if anyone deserved a happy ending, it was he. As stated above though, [QUOTE=Messiah;180428]
Life is not fair? [/QUOTE]
I hated it some times, I stopped watching it several times, but there will be a long time until we see a series like it. Ill keep waiting here though.
Comments
As for the fossils, i know that not every fossil gets found, but either the cylons stayed, in which case there should be dozens if not hundreds of metal bits (we never did learn how many cylons stayed) or they had to leave on their own, we also already know the cylons live a very very long time, so are those models still walking around 150,000 years later? [/QUOTE]
At that point, after all they'd been through... I'd have given it up just as easily. HOLY SHIT! A blue planet! With Fruit! and Fresh water! And i can build a house and get the frak away from these people i've been cramped with? FRAK YEA. Yea, i'd give it all up too.
Humanoid Cylons don't have any metal parts. They're just as organic as we are, part of the dicodomy of the show has been how we treat them as machines when they're really as human as we are. There are only some real subtle DNA level differences. As for the red glowing spines... well we don't talk about those anymore, that was just your imagination. :)
[QUOTE=PSI-KILLER;180377]they never showed why Kara just disapperaed or who built her new Viper. That sorta pissed me off. @ EntiZha, channel 717[/QUOTE]
Kara just disappeared because she was an angel of god, just like head six. Her purpose was served, her journey complete. So like the others, she just vanished, presumably to the afterlife. No one built her viper, it was there just as she was. It was an angel viper... If they hadn't burned it up in the sun before she dissapeared, it would have vanished when she did. God/Higher Power made it.
[QUOTE=WORF;180380]So I was right, the Earth they found before wasn't our Earth! :D
I thought it was a great ending and I don't mind at all that certain mystical elements weren't explained. We've seen that happen before, midichlorians anyone?
The human form Cylons don't have any synthetic components, no metal or anything like that in their bodies and as already pointed out it was very hard for the Colonials to identify Cylons with all their technology. How can modern day humanity be expected to tell the difference especially after 150,000 years of cross breeding with humans and Cylon?
Also did anyone notice the cameo by Ronald Moore at the end?
Worf[/QUOTE]
Yea but i wanted to know who those frakking angels were! Seriously :p. And yea, who knows, we could have found cylon remains but have had no idea of their significance. Their genetic differences could easily by chalked up to evolutionary differences in the species.
As for the cameo, SPOTTED it instantly :)
Also, this is a spoiler zone. no worrying about those tags. This show is doooone!
Also, if you have lingering questions, or just enjoy a good Q&A and finding out the motivations about the finale, check out this article:
[url]http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/03/battlestar-galactica-daybreak-finale-moore-mcdonnell-olmos.html#more[/url]
In it Ron Moore (and occasionaly David Eick, Eddie Olmos, and Mary McDonnell) discusses the finale, and answers questions about it.
Worf, kinda hard not to spot RDM with his flowing mane :D Didn't see David Eike though.
Anyway, goodbye Galactica, thank you for the great ride over the past 5 years! Its been emotional!
I also remember how Moore said in one commentary how he's always hesitant to do another space battle, because he's not sure how to top the last one, even though they always, always do. This was no exception, from the opening moments when it looked like Galactica would be sliced to pieces before firing a shot, to the gutting of the starboard pod (really, what were they going to use it for, anyway?) to the positively epic breaching of the Colony... pitch-perfect.
Worf
The plot itself, the entire story, the arc closures were not without flaw, but powerful to the point of making any of these problems irrelevant. It was the perfect case of solid writing as performed by a devoted cast producing a performance many directors could only dream of.
Crazy, Funny, Happy, Sad. I loved it all. Vorlons and I tended to be among the more harsh critics of this show, but it's fairly obvious that the show's continuing willingness to grant the audience the ability to think has kept us around, and this finale offered us the perfect balance of everything.
I'm perfectly content knowing that a few threads were ignored, left unresolved, or simply retconned out of existence because of how much care was taken in ensuring the comprehensive completion of what was truly important, as well as providing a grander meaning which didn't make me feel like a fool for having seen it.
BSG will be missed. It's truly rare that we get shows which operate like this. I hope Caprica will find its legs and give us another solid run, but it seems improbable.
I think most threads were tied up rather well. Head Six and Head Baltar were always one of the main things I wanted to see resolved. It didn't quite go how I would have liked but I still find it satisfactory that they fully revealed themselves finally to both Caprica and Baltar. Their mysterious purpose kind of works out at the end.
The one element I really did not like was Starbuck. It was quite sloppy how it was resolved. I think it was a cop out to just have her dissapear and leave the rest to the imagination. Why was Leoben so obsessed with her, what about daniel and her ressurection, and in the end what did the harbringer of death really mean? I figured it might have had something to do with the final death of the Cavil cylons but she was really just another player among many when it came to that.
Speaking of, in "Guess What's Coming To Dinner," they implied that the "death" Kara was harbinging was the destruction of the Resurrection Hub. On the other hand, "harbinger" also means forerunner or precursor and, interestingly, comes from a word referring to a valet who went ahead of an army or caravan in order to secure lodgings for them (God bless the person who put an integrated dictionary into Mac OS X). Well, the last of these senses is obvious. Kara went ahead to Cylon Earth in advance of the Fleet and prepared the way, but metaphorically speaking, she also was an example of what Baltar said. She died, accepting that her end had come, but then began a new life, just like the settlers of New Earth did by accepting the end of the lives they had known in the Colonies and the Fleet, and the necessity of starting anew.
Now, the most interesting thing to me is actually the last thing the First Hybrid said; "They must not follow her." Well, why did he think so? Anders and the Modern Hybrid disagreed, passing no judgement on that fate Kara Thrace led everyone to. I have a couple of ideas. One is simply that the First Hybrid didn't trust God or Fate, and that's why he had his Centurions steal him away when the Final Five arrived and offered to give them flesh bodies. He thought the Colonial Cylons were better off on their own, without any external interference from Earth, or God, or whomever. The other thing would be, given his intonation of the "All of this has happened before, and all this will happen again" credo, that he was in favor of the cycle continuing forever, and he knew that letting Kara fulfill her destiny meant an end to that cycle.
And why is it that only Helo's family and Baltar (of all people!) can live happily ever after in the end, so far as the main players are concerned? What kind of peace did Apollo find?
There was plenty to like about the finale, but in my opinion, much of it felt like they just went, "um, okay let's do it this way; who cares if we can't explain it, we'll just say 'it's a mystery!' and be all deep and stuff."
Sorry, after 4 years, I feel like I deserve more closure than that. I guess I just became too emotionally invested in Kara's story, or read too deep into things like her father, knowing the Watchtower song, her fingers being broken, her time in the Farm, Flashbacks with her, Lee and Zack, FINDING HER BONES ON EARTH AFTER HER SHIP BLEW UP LIGHT YEARS AWAY, and other little tidbits.
Remember how they kept downplaying the wire gag where Head Six physically picked up Baltar in a manner that he could not have accomplished unassisted back in "Escape Velocity," while he was getting beat up by the marine, and they said the director overstepped himself and they really didn't mean to establish that the head characters could have a physical presence or effect on the material world? I think, in retrospect, that might've been bullshit, and they fully intended to establish that head characters could have an effect on the material world, in order to set the stage for the Kara revelation.
I liked it, i enjoyed it, i was wholly unsatisfied by it. it was a good end to the series, but a terrible end to the story.
And why is it that only Helo's family and Baltar (of all people!) can live happily ever after in the end, so far as the main players are concerned? What kind of peace did Apollo find?[/QUOTE]
Just because she was an "angel" doesn't mean she had no physical form. She was an entity brought back to life by some larger force, completely intact in her previous form. What's to say this entity couldn't simply whisk her off once her task was completed? Head character or not, it is beyond the scope of our perception to really understand [B]how[/B]. Trying to explain [B]how[/B] everything functions is one of the unnecessary burdens modern scifi writers seem to be weighed down with, when the answer we generally feel more comfortable or content with is [B]why[/B] things work. Kara Thrace completed her function and was brought back after finishing up her relationships. But I digress. [I]Magic[/I], that's how she did it.
Implication on part of Head Baltar and Six was clear that the innocent, inconsequential life to be lived out applied to everyone else in this new society as well, that things would go well and be generally peaceful. Helo and Athena were our representative for the rest of the now-Earthbound humans.
As far as Lee goes, he seemed to be pretty clear in stating what exactly he'd be doing. Lee will go exploring. Lee will find mountains to climb, trails to map, and the local fragments of society to interact with. He'll be fine.
[QUOTE=Vorlons in my Head]The one element I really did not like was Starbuck. It was quite sloppy how it was resolved. I think it was a cop out to just have her dissapear and leave the rest to the imagination. Why was Leoben so obsessed with her, what about daniel and her ressurection, and in the end what did the harbringer of death really mean? I figured it might have had something to do with the final death of the Cavil cylons but she was really just another player among many when it came to that.[/quote]
Point by point...
Starbuck's vanishing, I cover that above.
Leoben was a man of intense faith. While his infiltrator personas were seemingly so shifty and untrustworthy, his core being was one of faith and loyalty to the "greater plan," whatever that may have been. He saw the signs, he listened to prophecy (no doubt overheard some of the hybrid utterances on his own time and accumulated some awareness of how things "worked") and realized her significance. I do agree that the switch in his handling of their relationship was somewhat abrupt, but it makes sense with a good understanding of his actual character.
Daniel was [B]not intended to be anything remotely significant[/B]. It was a screw-up on part of the creators of the show, none of whom even fathomed the possibility of the fans taking the quick name-drop and running with it so strongly. In retrospect, the Daniel concept makes [B]incredible[/B] sense with how things could have worked out and really fits into the puzzle well. Perhaps a Daniel-centric conclusion could have worked better than what we got, but that would have required more time to develop the story than they had.
I felt her resurrection made sense with the situation we were presented with. Starbuck died "before her time." She had a prophecy to uphold, and through divine intervention was able to bring the story to its conclusion. The powers that be brought her back in a form able to finish the sequence and bring this group to a home.
[quote=Wikipedia (Is not a source!)]A harbinger is a sign of things to come. Throughout history and literature, harbingers and omens figure prominently, and are responsible for major decisions which have altered the course of both.[/quote]
[quote=Rebel Basestar Hybrid]Thus will it come to pass. A dying leader will know the truth of the Opera House. The missing Three will give you the Five who come from the home of the Thirteenth. You are the harbinger of death, Kara Thrace. You will lead them all to their end. End of Line. [/quote]
Harbinger of Death is a lovely term. It doesn't necessarily need to literally mean anything. My interpretation remains that she was [B]the sign[/B] that the end of the cycle of time was near. She would be responsible for its conclusion by way of her very existence. Her actions would factor into its completio and would lead to humanity finding its own end, whatever or wherever that may be. In this case, humanity and the remaining humanoid cylons landed on Earth and started anew. Upon her completing this task and being able to successfully resolve her emotional position with Lee Adama, she was recalled. Her task was done, time to move on.
[quote=The First Hybrid]Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death. They must not follow her. [/quote]
Two options present themselves for the First Hybrid's statement. Starting straight off, it's clear The First Hybrid's intentions were not quite inline with the rest of those of the Cylon race as a whole, otherwise it would have joined up with the Final Five-led group and retreated to its home space to pursue work on organic Cylon forms. Instead, it retreated off into space where it took up a position of near worship, attempting to continue its research into creating a new transcendental being, doing its thing in practical solitude until the fleet encountered it. The First Hybrid attempted to ward Shaw off in an effort for self-preservation of the status quo. Starbuck's destiny is straight-up opposed to any notion of a stable, pure Cylon society.
My single genuinely strong complaint about the episode was its conclusion. The Flash Forward to New York City was fine to me. The implication that Hera was the "Mitochondrial Eve" added significant weight to her place in the story and cemented her value. The Hendrix version of the song was fine, as it added a more modern twist to the show and tied it into where things stand now. The montage of robots and AIs, however, was [I]completely frakking ridiculous[/I] and really detracted from what had just happened. It was a completely different pace and style, adding [I]no value [/I]to the show and diminishing the significance of that just achieved across the entire finale! They could have simply removed the scene and aired the credits at a normal pace with the Hendrix tune laid on top and left everyone so much happier.
I also LIKED Kara dissapearing, but i didnt like the lack of explination, (and the timing, i thought she should have dissapeared when galactica jumped to earth, but that would have frakked up the end of Lee's story)
If they are going to explain them in TV movies then fine, but if that's it...I have to derive enough conclusions in my own life. While I don't necessarily want to be spoon-fed plot material, I at least want something more satisfying in a season finale.
Chalking it all up to a 'mysterious' higher power that would be 'less mysterious' if they explained it (according to RDM in a recent interview that I read somewhere out in cyberspace but cannot cite right now and therefore has little legitimacy) feels VERY ill-considered and amateurish compared to the thought that went into many other aspects of the series. As a result, it really makes me rethink how much thought really DID go into other aspects of the plot.
Did I hate the finale? No. Lots of things I liked about it. But I definitely feel cheated. So does my wife. But maybe that's just us.
Maybe we're just suckers for 'Hollywood endings.' While I didn't necessarily expect (or want) a perfect 'happy' ending with a bow, I was not left with much at all in the way of hope. For humanity? Yes. For the characters that we have come to know and care about over the past four years, who RDM himself said it is ALL ABOUT? No. No hope at all.
As my wife put it, "I didn't realize it was going to be a tragedy."
That was a really nice touch. Found it quite a touching moment actually.
I agree with Sanfam, good intellegent story telling allows us to continue questioning after the story is done, filling in our own blanks. Additionally good storytelling doesn't allow the observer to know more the collective knowledge of the characters, explaining Kara's fate further would have required revelations to one or more characters that would have unduely altered that character's behavior.
Jake
I really enjoyed the show's final episode. Of course it wasn't perfect, but then I didn't expect it to be. Great acting by the cast, great visuals, great score.
I liked how they contrasted civilization as we know it with all its excesses with the primitive tribes that once populated this planet with its (deceptively romantic) simple pleasures. As some of you have noticed yourselves, I too have a problem with the new settlers not hesitating to leave their past behind and have all their space ships fly into the sun. I suppose this may make sense to the show's creators, but it doesn't hold up to reality. Ok, we are a technologically advanced civilization stranded on a primitive life-supporting planet and the first thing we are going to do is dump all the tools and means that took our ancestors thousands of years to develop and send them off into the sun. Yeah, right. Even Enterprise made more sense here showing how survivors used pieces of their ships to build their colony. I guess this is where the show entered into the realm of poetry and I guess we can be thankful that RDM isn't an engineer by trade. :D
I was really caught off guard by Kara's sudden disappearance at the end. A so-called WTF moment. :D I don't think she was an Angel quite like the others were, since she wasn't really aware of who she was. I mean as far as she was concerned she only lost consciousness in that exploding Viper incident. Only when she discovered her charred remains on the planet surface did she realize something was not right with her. She wasn't in control of her destiny, the higher power was.
Anyway, this has indeed been a great moment to remember in scifi history.
Now we have to wait again for that darn box set to come out, dammit. ;)
I wonder what happened to all the other cylons in Caprica, the cylon homeworld, all the other basetars? Did all the remnants of the cylon really just boil down to one crippled basestar full of sixes, eights and two's? What about the fleet full of basetars with the other cavils?
Not the kind of end I would have liked to see, but all episodes counted together it was a good run.
Of course, spoilers ahead.
It may sound like blasphemy or something, but I silently laughed in my mind that I needed to wait so long to see that annoying Rosslyn die.. And at the same time I felt artificial sadness towards Adama for his loss. The the long wait was not worth it.
Anyway, someone said that Cylons had a plan. What a terrible plan that was... To resurrect in form of Asimo. The last seconds probably explained more than anything did on the show, it was just about robotics. Unavoidable is going to happen, and we cant change it. The question is how bad it will be...
My bet is that the civil war took care of them pretty well. It's quite probable that the various actions of the civil war that occurred off-screen had a strong impact on the Cylon presence in the universe. My suspicion is that Cavil (or one of his model) liberally dispensed atomic weapons and made quick work of the opposition both in space and on the ground, likely sacrificing many of his own side to get it done faster. He didn't really view the fleet as much of any significant threat until the hub went down and appeared to continue toying with them for quite some time. This was likely followed by a retreat to the colony to get cracking on re-creating resurrection.
There was a lot of Deus Ex Machina in it, which is fine by me, since they explicitly stated through the series that it seemed like a power was manipulating them behind the scenes (Oh, and implying that Ronald D Moore did not like being called god was a fine touch).
The most obvious device they left was the dead pilot firing the nukes, but as I said before, it was ok since it made sense in the background.
[QUOTE=Entil'Zha;180359]I did feel vindicated about it being earth in the past though, i said last season that when they finally got to earth it would be earth of the past[/QUOTE]
And you were not alone. ;)
[QUOTE=Entil'Zha;180361] Spoiler: The funny thing is, when Kara was inputting the jump coorinates, and talking about not being forgotten, i turned to my wife and said that Kara was going to be gone when the ship rematerialized after the jump[/QUOTE]
I did the exact same thing! (Except I have no wife, and my neighbours probably dont like that voice in the walls that keep talking about wierd stuff at 1 am..)
[QUOTE=Entil'Zha;180375]As for the fossils, i know that not every fossil gets found, but either the cylons stayed, in which case there should be dozens if not hundreds of metal bits[/QUOTE]
Except that the humanoid cylons are more like [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replicant]replicants[/quote], theyre parts are all organic, theyre engineered humans so to speak. see them as genetically engineered humans, and you wont be far off.
[QUOTE=RedAssAg05;180399]And why is it that only Helo's family and Baltar (of all people!) can live happily ever after in the end, so far as the main players are concerned? What kind of peace did Apollo find? [/QUOTE]
Life is not fair?
Baltar played his part, he was played for the most part and I dont think he should be punished for most of the things he did, he was a coward, and he was not an innocent, but in the end. e played his part.
I never liked Roslyn, she was a zealot in many ways, and I did not mourn her when she died, I did however mourn Bills loss, he was a good man and if anyone deserved a happy ending, it was he. As stated above though, [QUOTE=Messiah;180428]
Life is not fair? [/QUOTE]
I hated it some times, I stopped watching it several times, but there will be a long time until we see a series like it. Ill keep waiting here though.