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Something not seen on Firstones in many a year...
Freejack
Jake the Not-so-Wise
in Zocalo v2.0
...a political thread!
So here we are, in the thick of the silly season here in the US and I am not sure why it has been so long since that last real political discussion, but I think it is about time.
Just for the sake of full disclosure I would consider myself a centrist Republican, mainly because of my views on the economy and government's role (though the current Republican leadership seems to forgotten this part of the platform). I most often do not agree with the party's position on social issues.
Anyway, I am finding myself become quite a politicophile (if there is such a word), trying to gather and absorb as much data as possible about our crazy, but somehow extremely functional system as I can. I think we will have a very interesting general election. I am glad McCain is the likely Republican candidate. I know that a lot of people are not fond on his views on the war and such, but I find him as someone who is willing to compromise, to work on both sides of the aisle and who won't just put on blinders and head toward one single agenda without regard for external views. Given what we've seen the past 8 years, that would be a welcome relief.
On the Democratic side, I am comfortable with Obama. I do believe is a great orator and likely a strong leader, I also believe he, like McCain, won't be one to just tow the party line. I think McCain/Obama contest will be very interesting.
Of course that brings me to Clinton, I am very concerned about Clinton getting the nomination, possibly leading to the presidency, but not because one might think. It is not her personality or positions on issues that bothers me, I am sure she'd be an adequate leader. No, my concern is the impact it has upon our system when history books read 41. Bush, 42. Clinton, 43. Bush, 44. Clinton. It could mean more than a 1/4-century essentially under the rule of the same group of individuals. This does not even take into account the constitutional and governance issues that arise when the 1st Spouse has equal clearance as the Commander-in-Chief.
Anyway, that's my take at this point. Your mileage may vary...
Jake
PS: General point of order...keep the discussion civil!
So here we are, in the thick of the silly season here in the US and I am not sure why it has been so long since that last real political discussion, but I think it is about time.
Just for the sake of full disclosure I would consider myself a centrist Republican, mainly because of my views on the economy and government's role (though the current Republican leadership seems to forgotten this part of the platform). I most often do not agree with the party's position on social issues.
Anyway, I am finding myself become quite a politicophile (if there is such a word), trying to gather and absorb as much data as possible about our crazy, but somehow extremely functional system as I can. I think we will have a very interesting general election. I am glad McCain is the likely Republican candidate. I know that a lot of people are not fond on his views on the war and such, but I find him as someone who is willing to compromise, to work on both sides of the aisle and who won't just put on blinders and head toward one single agenda without regard for external views. Given what we've seen the past 8 years, that would be a welcome relief.
On the Democratic side, I am comfortable with Obama. I do believe is a great orator and likely a strong leader, I also believe he, like McCain, won't be one to just tow the party line. I think McCain/Obama contest will be very interesting.
Of course that brings me to Clinton, I am very concerned about Clinton getting the nomination, possibly leading to the presidency, but not because one might think. It is not her personality or positions on issues that bothers me, I am sure she'd be an adequate leader. No, my concern is the impact it has upon our system when history books read 41. Bush, 42. Clinton, 43. Bush, 44. Clinton. It could mean more than a 1/4-century essentially under the rule of the same group of individuals. This does not even take into account the constitutional and governance issues that arise when the 1st Spouse has equal clearance as the Commander-in-Chief.
Anyway, that's my take at this point. Your mileage may vary...
Jake
PS: General point of order...keep the discussion civil!
Comments
I hope a democratic is the next president, and I hope Clinton wins the nomination, because I think that a black man cannot become a president in USA yet...though I hope it is not true.
Since were sharing, I truly consider myself to be a centrist. I believe both the Republicans and the Democrats have gotten lost along the way. If George Bush called the sky blue, the Democrats would hold a conference and release a statement that he was wrong it was actually a light shade of Cyan. Partisans Politics has absolutely torn America apart. Thats why I kind of like McCain, he has shows willingness to walk across the aisle in the Senate to work with Dems to get things done that need to be done. However, while campaigning for President he has had to play the good little Republican and now says he will not even vote for his own legislation on illegal immigration.
I don't agree whole heartedly with either of the parties stances on major issues, so again that makes it hard to allaign one self. I am furiously pro choice, with the exception of third trimester abortions.
I am against any form of legislation that prevents LAW ABIDING CITIZENS from owning guns. Criminals don't get their guns at Kmart, they get them the same way they do everything else, illegally. However, the US Marine in me says people are stupid, and there is no such thing as an accidental discharge. If the weapon fires and you did not intend for it to fire, that negligence. I believe their should be MANDATORY safety classes for all gun owners. Something close to what the military gives out in terms of safe weapon handling and safe weapon storage. Stiffer penalties for unreported stolen weapons. And finally we need to find a way to make judges not afraid to take away someones rights. Who remembers the Virginia Tech shootings? Those SHOULD have been prevented. He purchased those guns legally, AFTER serving time in a mental institution, but the judge overseeing his case did not want his rights infringed upon so he didn't have him classified as an inpatient (which he was). End result, a lot of people died that should have lived, because a core component of the system was bypassed.
I am pro civil unions for homosexuals. I get it religious folk, you don't like the term marriage because marriage is a sacrament involving god, and in your 2000 year old book that may or may not have been dictated by a magical deity it loosely describes homosexuality as a sin. I wont mention that in that same passage it also describes eating pork, shellfish, wearing nylon (or other mixed fabrics) and sewing more than one type of crop in the same field is also a sin (or will I? hypocrites). Anyways, give them a civil union, its not marriage, it has nothing to do with god, but they get the tax and insurance benefits and thats all they want anyways.
We have to find a way to end lobbyists in Washington. Its one of the reasons I liked John Edwards. The concept of buying a vote (which is what lobbyists have become) has turned this country from a democracy in a capitalist run country. Big business can swoop in with the corporate jets and the big paychecks, whine and dine a Senator and say vote for me, fuck the people and somehow these Senators do. Maybe they forget why they are there, I don't know, but it frustrates the hell out of me. I also think we need term limits on the House and the Senate. Guys like Ted Kennedy, lets face it, the man has been riding on Johns coat tails for 40 freaking years. What has he done. He just sits there in the Senate day in day out. The biggest thing the guy has done in the last 10 years was endorse Barak Obama the other day, and about 6 years ago, he convinced the Senate to use the US Navy to go find his Nephews downed plane. Thats about it.
I wish, we had real legitimate 3rd party representation to vote for. Unfortunately we don't. Barring anything crazy like he picks up Huckabee the uber conservative wing nut as his running mate, the most likable candidate to me is McCain.
Lets dance everybody!
That's how NZ approached the issue. The new act removed the term "marriage" from all laws and replaced it with "civil unions." Then another act was passed which allowed civil unions between any two people (with the usua limits like soundness of mind, etc). There are a few minor problems with the law that did all this but they're irrelevant to this issue. Meanwhile, the churches are still allowed to call it marriage for their own purposes, and if you want to actually get [i]married[/i] you do it in a church and it's up to the individual church to decide if they want to marry same-sex couples. Not surprisingly, society hasn't collapsed into chaos, nor has it reverted to the stone age. We haven't been swarmed with a flood of same-sex couples; as it turns out, only a few were interested in the legal benefits and the rest never cared all along. I guess having a parliament in which three MPs are openly homosexual and another is a woman who used to be a man leads to a fairly open-minded stance on such issues. :)
[quote]We have to find a way to end lobbyists in Washington. Its one of the reasons I liked John Edwards.[/quote]
I don't see how what those lobbyists do and how the politicians respond can be seen as anything other than bribary. It shocks me how blatant your country is about supporting such a practice.
[quote]I wish, we had real legitimate 3rd party representation to vote for. Unfortunately we don't. Barring anything crazy like he picks up Huckabee the uber conservative wing nut as his running mate, the most likable candidate to me is McCain.[/QUOTE]
Despite the teething problems and minor issues after every election, I'm very glad NZ changed to MMP. Having more than two realistic choices makes such a huge difference. Not sure how well MMP would work in such a large country, though.
Biggles: I strongly suggest you check out the movie "Thank You For Smoking." It may be a work of fiction, but it gives an interesting perspective on the life of the lobbyist.
*insert some witty ha-ha our dollar is worth more than yours comment* :P
If I were to vote in the US, it would def be Democrat. Republicans make our conservative party look like left wing nuts!
I was thinking Clinton at first because I am a woman of course and it would be neat to have a woman president (it's all the rage these days, hell Canada even had a woman Prime Minister for a [very] short time) but I am back Obama.
I think that if the US can handle a woman, they can certainly handle a black man.
It'll be an interesting race anyway...
Obama: Harvard Law School, Junior Senator Illinois, age 46
Clinton: Yale Law School, Junior Senator New York, age 60
Personally I think that Clinton has already had too much experience. I don't think the US needs someone who has 2 scandals and a flip-flop on the war in the White House. AND as much as Bill was cool, he had his turn, now it's time for someone new. I think a fresh outlook will do wonders.
And to address some of the previous comments:
- Oh, that's an interesting take on the marriage thing but what about for people who want to get married but aren't religious but are hetro? I suppose you can't win them all. I'm for anyone being able to marry anyone no matter what race, sex, creed etc...
- Canada is a large country and we have a multiple party system, with one party taking the majority and one the minority but (case in point right now) the other parties can team up and take down the majority if need be.
- The biggest prob I have with McCain (other than the whole Republican thing :P) is that he was in the race with Bush and then stepped down when he was close (much like Romney did) and let Bush in- eww.
It's bad enough all the crap we are offered to vote on here in the USA, without others around the world pointing it out constantly and calling so-n-so names and shit because of who you or what you voted on.
Fred is about the only person I would like to see as Pres and that doesn't look like it's a hopeful proposition so I'm staying far away from this years disaster.
In some ways, I think it's sad that the US doesn't have a viable third party but I can only imagine the chaos if we had more than two to choose from. I could foresee something similar to the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_of_1824"]Election of 1824[/URL], only with each candidate a member of a different party, rather than all the same. And I, for one, don't want the House of Representatives selecting my president for me. ;)
-Our current president...she's a she, but I don't like her atm. I didn't mind her when she started as president. but now some of here commets are just annoying. So, IMO never have a president for more than 6 years.
- I would really like a good expliantion of the USA's election system, because it's quite confusing.
- I say go Obama
btw, I just came back from the bar. So, don't take me too serious, tatta ;D
[/QUOTE]
Ok quick run down.
Of course it’s a two party system, not by any laws, but the general structure tends to favor two parties over multiple parties.
Two levels to the voting, the nomination, then the general election.
The nomination process is more or less managed by the parties. In both parties, the people in each state vote on the candidate, awarding delegates to each candidates. These delegates attend the party's convention in the fall, which is where the parties select the final nominee to the run in the general election. Basically the nominee with the most delegates wins.
Each state gets to select the method by which they vote on the candidate and the date on which they do. From one state another, there are differences in the voting method and how delegates are awarded. Some states use a conventional popular vote, others use a caucus, some states award delegates in proportion to the vote, others award all delegates to the popular vote winner, some have closed primary where only registered party members can vote, others open where any one can vote. The amount of total delegates each state can send to the party convention is proportional to the population in that state.
The general election is indirectly selected by the popular vote in a contest between each party's nominee. The actual contest is decided by the Electoral College. Like the delegates to the party convention, each state has a certain number of Electoral College delegates in proportion to population. States can decide how to award Electoral College delegates in response to the popular vote, a majority are in proportion to the popular vote, but some are winner take all. The final tally of the Electoral College votes is what decides the winner of the race.
It can be a confusing and complex system, but it actually works very well, and each part (especially nomination process and the Electoral College) helps ensure a balance between the rights of the states and the federal government.
Jake
We've had women prime ministers for 10 years now, and at one point all the top posts in the country (prime minister, governer general, attorney general, etc) were held by women for a few years. But that's just good old "progressive" NZ, first to accept women's right to vote, for you. :p
-Clinton - Heck no. That woman scares the crap out of me
McCain - Hell no, mans no president I want
Obama - If it's between McCain and Obama, Obama gets my vote.
Paul - only candidate I LIKE right now.
Romney - if he comes back, better choice than McCain
Huckabee - he gets his ideas from Paul, this to me is a good thing.
fact is, it's going to be yet another year of "Lesser of two evils".
Likes: He isn't a religious nut job or a pretender to be one to get elected.
He isn't a partisan fool.
Clinton: Her biggest problem is what the Republicans say about her. She is too much of the same old political ways.
I expect her to be the best one to get us out of Iraq. Fix Afghanistan. Get back to being an honest broker in Palestine.
Stop giving money to the rich.
The people with the biggest tax burden - $40,000 to 220,000 a year. They still vote for the party that did nothing to fix it. :P (that would be both of them)
Obama: I haven't seen his voting record, my fault.
He has more experience then Bush the bloody or Clinton did when they got elected.
He speaks English, something Bush the Bloody could do but faked it.
To jump into marriage: Marriage is a function of the state. A Religion can preform them, such as the first church of Satan, but there is no need for a religion to be involved. I got married by the state.
So please, if you are voting, do so for someone who's still on the ballot. :D
What I'm curious about is that we will find out, one way or the other, if the American public is either mostly (moderately) conservative, sexist or racist. I'm kidding, but nonetheless. So I believe, either way, we'll find out how progressive the US are as a nation.
At this point I'm not really sure who's going to win the election. As someone else said, whoever wins, we loose.
A lot of other countries have already solved that problem by simply having [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-round_system]run-off elections[/url].
[QUOTE=A2597;169895]Obama - If it's between McCain and Obama, Obama gets my vote.[/QUOTE] I'm quite surprised to hear you say that.
Originally I was torn between Obama and Clinton, but had pretty much decided for OBama even before Clinton and her husband went for the negative attack ads. Anyone so willing to distort the truth to gain an advantage over a member of her own party is not someone to be trusted.
And, speaking as a member of the 501st Legion, it is sad that Emperor Palpatine could not run. He could borrow a slogan from DiscWorld: "One Man, One Vote! (He's the Man, he has the Vote)"
There are only two options in this election, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. Obama has very little experience. He lacks a platform, its great that he inspires and makes us feel all warm and fuzzy, but that isn't what we need. We need someone who is going to get stuff done. Hillary has a record that shows she has delivered change in the past and will do so for us again.
A vote for John McCain is a vote for a 3rd Bush term. That is not what this country needs. There is no military solution in Iraq. McCain is no maverick as the media portrays him. Don't be fooled. He won't end this war. He won't change healthcare.
If you look at the polls, Hillary actually has a higher favorability rating than Obama, and lower unfavorable ratings. The idea that she is more polarizing than anyone else out there is a myth. Look at the data. Barack Obama is not going to transcend party lines or anything like that. Statistically all candidates end up with roughly equal favorability ratings by the end of the election. Don't for a minute think that republicans will wake up one morning and suddenly have some epiphany that they're going to vote for a candidate who's plans and ideologies are contradictory to their own philosophies.
There are no skeletons in Hillary's closet, everything is in the open. She's successfully taken on the republicans and beaten them. She's stood up to the republican smear machine and survived and only expanded her popularity in NY. She'll take on McCain and win.
I'm quite surprised to hear you say that.[/QUOTE]
Yea, well..I don't like McCain one bit. And while there is something off about Obama, he does strike me as someone that might actually bring about some positive change. McCain...he'd make it worse.
I loath big government, McCain would make it bigger. Obama will as well, but not as badly as McCain would.
A good idea (one that exists in most local elections in the United States, by the way). However, in order to implement such a change at the national level, the US would need to amend the Constitution. Unfortunately, doing so means that Congress (and 2/3 of the the states, as well) have to ratify the amendment. The very people who could ultimately decide the election would have to surrender that power. In other words: not likely to happen. ;)