[quote]Originally posted by Rick:
[b]JD- Yes, you're right...Neutron Bombs require a thermonuclear trigger (heat+pressure). [/quote][/b]
I thought it was a hydrogen bomb that required a smaller nuke explosion to trigger the larger device, but I'll bow to your superior knowledge...I'm not the MFE/materials type - you are [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
[quote][b]Re: size of the "Davy Crockett" shell: point taken. But...while the package for the artillary was small, it still required the "high quality" shaped charges to detonate. I doubt that capability to produce that is readily available in Afghanastan. Especially after, oh, Sunday.[/quote][/b]
I never said it would be easy (or possible, for some states) to fabricate a nuclear weapon. I was just stating that small nuclear devices are possible, and were created back in the 50s and 60s. The Davey Crocket was a nuclear bazooka. Yes, nuclear bazooka [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
If I remember right, it looked something like a pregnant Panzerfaust from WWII.
If we could build something that small during or just after the Korean War era (the Korean War resulted in a LOT of _very_ odd weapon platforms either tested or in our inventory at the time), imagine what the extra 40 years have done to our (and the Russians') ability to turn out small nuclear weapons.
I seriously doubt we could turn out a .22 or 5.56/7.62mm rifle-sized bullet nuke, though...would that even be enough nuclear material to generate an explosion?
It would be enough if the target was a mass just a hair sub-critical. The addition of the impact of a high speed bullet tipping the scales is the trick.
[quote]Originally posted by JackN:
[b]It would be enough if the target was a mass just a hair sub-critical. The addition of the impact of a high speed bullet tipping the scales is the trick.
[/b][/quote]
I really don't think it works that way. In order to achieve critical mass, you need to pack the fissionable material into a smaller amount of space than it otherwise be possible in nature. What you're suggesting sounds like if there was enough of it just sitting there, it'd go nuclear.
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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
[quote]Originally posted by TheSaint:
[b] I really don't think it works that way. In order to achieve critical mass, you need to pack the fissionable material into a smaller amount of space than it otherwise be possible in nature. What you're suggesting sounds like if there was enough of it just sitting there, it'd go nuclear.
[/b][/quote]
Yep, it does work that way. 2000 Million years ago in Africa, an number of natural Nuclear Fissioning Reactors formed:
[url="http://www.curtin.edu.au/curtin/centre/waisrc/OKLO/What/What.html"]http://www.curtin.edu.au/curtin/centre/waisrc/OKLO/What/What.html[/url] [url="http://www.alamut.com/proj/98/nuclearGarden/bookTexts/Lovelock_Oklo.html"]http://www.alamut.com/proj/98/nuclearGarden/bookTexts/Lovelock_Oklo.html[/url]
To quote: there are only 5 things needed to create nuclear fission:
- A natural enrichment of 235U compared to 238U
- A high overall concentration of U.
- A minimum or critical size to sustain the fission reactions.
- A low concentration of neutron absorbers.
- A high concentration of a moderator.
None of these requires an explosion or electronic trigger of any kind. As I understand it, merely removing a casing of neutron absorbers or moderators from a sufficiently highly enriched Uranium mass could cause a detonation (or just bringing two pieces together). A nuclear reactor is, at its simplest, merely a controlled nuclear bomb.
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[i]"I have looked into the darkness, Na'Toth. You cannot do that and ever be quite the same again."
All around us, it was as if the Universe were holding its breath... waiting. All of life can be broken down into moments of transition or moments...of revelation. This had the feeling of both."
"G'Quan wrote: 'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against Chaos and Despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future, or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"[/i]
Wrong tense Jack, wrong tense.
Shadow boxer does not give up.
I did not say anything about not returning to your place of origin. You can go annoy the crap out of your sisters anytime you like. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
This is all just a concept anyways. Nutting out the exact details is of course cause for much debate, and not just on one little BB.
For a beggining I guess a TG passport could be issued like a regualar passport for a dual citizen, say for instance, a US citizen presents the correct forms and fee and gets a Terran passport.
The key here is to make the passport actually worth something other than a card full of idealistic virtue.
Access to a world wide currency, access to Terran territories like the one they should package Jerusalem in. Now that would be one hell of a way to get this kind of thing off the ground.
Access to the terran military and civil justice systems which could protect you from your previous national government...a real world court with real power and the big guys in olive drab and sky blue who go... "naughty naughty, you let those nice people go.... or that big floating city out there gets angry, very angry..."
Every stinking bitch fight warzone, around the world would suddenly become a target for 'aquisition' by the TG (Terran Government).
If country X keeps blowing the shit out of elements of its own populace or its neighbouring state...
then bang...
Terran Ulster territories to stop the Irish from smacking the crap out of each other.
Suddenly everyone who gets involved in a territorial/power struggle finds that if they don't play nice, they lose it to the TG.
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] If we South Aussies decided to use tanks and artillery instead of football to beat the Victorians I wouldn't bitch if the TG blue boys moved in to break it up.
I should also say.. that provided the TGP actually carried the weight it should...
Now let's think about this for a minute. You're asking me to give up part of the land area of my country for this 'Terran' government. No deal. I doubt anyone would want to live in a barren wasteland, I refuse to relocate people to make way for something like this, and there's people in just about everywhere in that US that people would _want_ to live. Also, giving away any sort of wilderness area would result in a horde of angry environmentalists out for your blood.
What benefits would there be? I refuse to give away the powers of a soverign nation to people who do not care about the nation. Nobody is going to tell me what I can and cannot do in my own home (nation, in this case), and to restrict my rights in other parts of the world for non-membership seems to conflict with what I assume the philosophy to be. Thing is, you will never get people to forget where they came from, or their own personal agendas. You might end up with Terran representatives from 'the area formerly known as China' declaring that because all the Chinese people have a low standard of living, all people from the 'area formerly known as the US' will be taxed halfway to the poorhouse to equalize things. What's to protect the people? And why should I be willing to take the risk?
The main reason I am so reluctant to give up my nation is that the government here was created by men who wished to ensure freedom and justice for everyone. It was the coming together of a patchwork of people from all walks of life, with differing beliefs, willing to sacrifice anything and everything for their fellow man to be free. We are bound together by our conviction that a man should be judged as who he is, not for who his father was, or what he looks like, and certainly not for what kind of cards he carries in his wallet. You say this is an ideal. It's not much of an ideal to take even a bit of my freedom for not joining.
Nick
"When travelling abroad, make sure you always have your Terran card. It's everywhere you want to be...... And if you don't have one, we won't let you in."
[quote]
***Excerpt from LoveLock, James: The Ages of Gaia (1988)
A bizarre consequence of the appearance of oxygen was the advent the world's first nuclear reactors. Nuclear power from its inception has rarely been described publicly except in hyperbole. The impression has been given that to design and construct a nuclear reactor is a feat unique to physical science and engineering creativity.
It is chastening to find that, in the Proterozoic, an unassertive community of modest bacteria built a set of nuclear reactors that ran for millions of years.
[/quote]
[This message has been edited by JackN (edited 10-12-2001).]
It reminds me of the "SkyNet" in the Terminator movies, and some older Sci_fi like Colossus(sp?) I think it was, where the US had our "aware" computer, and the Soviets had Gaurdain, etc.
Only now, we don't need to worry about room sized computers because the damn things are so small...
and remember you dont have a monopoly on democracy, on freedom, on class free society, on melting pot multiculturalism.
A Terran govenment is another tier, not the complete dissolution of nations...
Just like the UN as it stands now. Members tithe to the UN, so why not to a more formal arrangement ?
As far as the US being taxed to death... I have always stated that its proportionate...
You are the largest fiscal nation on Earth... but you still pay 5% of your GNP. 5% of the US GNP ammounts to a freakin lot...
Somalia might cough up enough to buy one jeep... but thats 5% of thier GNP.
Thats equality is its most basic form.
Coughing up 5% of your landmass, ( and if you read carefully I stated that it wasn't "the crappy dessert bits" ), is a big ask and just how to decide which bits is a nightmare and there would be a humungus bitch session if that landmass was simply 'decreed' to be Terran without just cause.. ( like the war example ). I guess the Terran government being the new kid... will mean it has to buy real estate.
Some people are very territorial, they'll piss on the proverbial furniture.
Others don't, and that includes me. If I'm safe, well fed and I have the few things I like to have I dont much care if my name is on the title deed or not.
I'd love to have the means or the karmic gift to be able to 'walk the earth' like David Harradine... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
I like my country, no doubt.. but I don't have to paint my face with red, white and blue or green and gold...
So many people get so caught up in 'belonging' to patriotism, parochialism and what exists basically within a hundred square miles of where they are.
So many isolationists, so many people obesessed with 'thier patch' Don't for a second think that I'm going yank-bashing. There's plenty of local yobbos who bellow and grunt "OZ OZ OZ OZ OZ !" all day long.
sigh......
Go listen to 'Imagine' by John Lennon,
and acutally think about the lyrics...
John takes it a few hundred steps further than what I'm suggesting... and sad to say the world isn't even ready for what I've put forward....
I used to like Lennon's song too, but then I realized that the world he imagined would be one where everyone was the same, this is true to the extent that we all share common human qualities, yet we each have individual aspects that make us who we are. In his song he is saying we should all be exacly the same, think the same, act the same, that would probably be safe and productive but it wouldn't be human. We have to learn to appreciate our differences as a contribution to our common humanity, not destroy them. I am not a big fan of "soverignty" becuse the word is often used by despots , but I do think local governments can decide better than some huge world government.
A world alliance should serve as a uniting force that helps guide our species as a whole, but it sould not pretend to know better than a community how to run a neighborhood and keep it safe. If we keep that principle in mind that a world system can work, but first we need to deal with the terrorists, dictators, and oppresive reigimes
that keep our planet in conflit.
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We Live as one, We die as one, We will face the darkness as one.
"Understanding is a Three Edged Sword- Your side, Their side, And the Truth...."
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
I think "Let it be" says it better than "Imagine" could.
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[quote]Originally posted by JackN:
[b]Do you know if this the same bacteria that is found in Nuclear Reactors today? And if so, did it originate from the ore(s) that were mined?[/b][/quote]
As I understand it, the two bacteria are not related; they just reached the point of radiation tolerance through parallel evolution. It's also interesting to note that this spontaneous nuclear reaction couldn't happen in nature today, since the 235U has decayed, and doesn't exist in high enough concentrations naturally anymore.
[quote]Originally posted by JackN:
[b]Thanks for posting it...[/b][/quote]
No worries JackN, just remembering something from high school science that fascinated me.
[quote]Originally posted by JackN:
[b]This URL is interesting...
[url="http://www.alamut.com/subj/evolution/progress/vinge_singularity.html"]http://www.alamut.com/subj/evolution/progress/vinge_singularity.html[/url]
What are your thoughts?
It reminds me of the "SkyNet" in the Terminator movies, and some older Sci_fi like Colossus(sp?) I think it was, where the US had our "aware" computer, and the Soviets had Gaurdain, etc.[/b][/quote]
Definitely interesting, but I disagree. I hope it's not my species-ist pride that makes me think so. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
Here's another interesting one: [url="http://www.transhumanist.com/volume1/moravec.htm"]http://www.transhumanist.com/volume1/moravec.htm[/url]
I haven't done too much study in the area of AI, IA, PI, etc. but scientifically and philosophically, I think the complexity of the human brain, let alone the mind, will evade the machines for centuries to come, perhaps forever. JMS's B5 future, set 250 years ahead, seems most believable to me. Computers able to respond better to our commands, augment us, but not able to out-think us.
Deep Blue might be able to defeat Kasparov at Chess after days of competition, but it cannot shake hands after the match, let alone walk out the door, have a conversation with his wife, feel emotion or have an Original Thought.
IMHO, the physical and functional complexities of the Human brain will only be able to be simulated by human neurons, which we mightn't ever really understand. Not that all these AI techniques aren't amazingly interesting, it's just that I think the secrets of constructing a comparable mind will remain outside our comprehension. No Universal computer is going to pass the Turing Test any time soon.
If the Mind was simple enough for us to understand, we'd be so simple we couldn't.
Asimov wrote a great story (can't remember the name) about a manual worker rediscovering hand arithmetic, after it had long been lost in the 'computer designs computer designs...' history. The sting in the tail was what the Generals decided to do with this 'new' technology!
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[i]"I have looked into the darkness, Na'Toth. You cannot do that and ever be quite the same again."
All around us, it was as if the Universe were holding its breath... waiting. All of life can be broken down into moments of transition or moments...of revelation. This had the feeling of both."
"G'Quan wrote: 'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against Chaos and Despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future, or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"[/i]
Okay, shadow boxer, I'll give you this. If such a 'Terran' government actually came to pass, it could be, if managed properly, the single greatest force for the evolution of human civilization the world has ever seen.
However, such a government, like every successful government the world has ever seen, would have to be created by the common will of the people, because unless they want it and believe in it, they will treat it as so many other tyrannical regimes that have come and gone and been forgotten in the past.
The reason I feel so strongly about my nation is more than history, or a sense of community, it is my belief that my government is simply an extension of my own beliefs that human beings have fundamental, natural rights that cannot be justly taken, or even willingly sacrificed. I believe in the primacy of man, rather than in the primacy of government. No matter what anyone does, no matter what laws anyone passes, I will live free. If neccessary, I will die to protect freedom, my own, or that of _anyone_ else who cares.
Any talk of world governments frightens me, because it is usually from people who think that because they are doing what they believe to be the right thing, they can just go ahead and seize power, or seize land, or do any number of other things without proper representation, or due process of law.
Look at the UN, for all the good they try to do, the Security Council is composed of un-elected officials. If I don't like what the UN is doing, what can I do? Can I vote anyone out of office? Can I start a referendum or initiative to restrict their power? No. I am helpless. And for those that don't know, Sudan, one of the biggest human rights violaters in the world, is now on the Security Council. Fitting, I guess, alongside China.
Another fear I have is that the larger and more powerful a government becomes, the more corrupting the influence of that power becomes on those who fill its ranks, and the harder it becomes for the people to change its course. If you could place me in any political party, it would probably be Liberetarian (unfortunate how many loonies there are in the group). Quite simply, the government does not need to do much, because as a rational human being, I am capable of taking care of my own business. The government should do only those things which the common man cannot be expected to do himself, like diplomatic relations, national defense, mail service, roads, and a few others. So when people start talking about any form of world government, and propose powers it would have over me, I fear for my freedom.
Before you can convince most of the people that a world government is a good thing, you have to tell me how I know it won't take my freedom, how it will be fair and just to all people, everywhere, regardless of who happens to hold power at the moment, that it will not be a massive, oppressive bureacracy, with accompanying massive, oppressive cost, and that there is a need. The UN only came to be after a world war that nearly destroyed Western civilization. Why do we need this?
Nick
ps. sorry for the knee-jerk reaction, but enough world government people have absolutely no regard for freedom that I feel my fear is justified. Although, perhaps not towards your ideas. Show me if I was right or wrong. Why do we need this?
I'm especially amused at the almost linear track of processing vs. memory in that one chart. So we're about at the point between mouse and monkey generally speaking.
But that only takes into consideration the mechanics, not the nuances of emotion, feeling, etc.
I agree with you concerning duplicating the mind of a man or exceeding it, much less a lower order animal any time soon.
My fear is the fear that may be unfounded but still haunts me when we reach that point where we have made our machines so (smart isn't the right word I think here) self sustaining, that they start designing themselves and there descendants.
At this critical point in time, they may discover new paths and make the breakthroughs that we would never come to, because they are NOT human or thinking as a human, and they'll be doing it at blinding speeds, with less and less overseeing of the process, after all, how would we keep up for one thing, and it would take time to absorb the new concepts they discover.
Like the terminator concept, they don't need us anymore, and may take on the self preservation instinct with fervor, before we can pull their plug in our fear. Their concepts of ethics or logic (if they have it) may be so vastly different in such a short amount of time as to be truely alien.
Maybe I've been watching too much Sci-Fi, but everything else we have ever created has had a tendancy to get out of our control.
I could see some damn fool giving the keys to the Nuclear Chevy to his creation trusting blindly that this new life form would have our best interests at heart...
[quote]Originally posted by JackN:
[b]...and some older Sci_fi like Colossus(sp?) I think it was, where the US had our "aware" computer, and the Soviets had Gaurdain, etc.
[/b][/quote]
I actually SAW that movie [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
-Rick
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[i]"...Never start a fight...but [b]always[/b] finish it."[/i]
[quote]Originally posted by Rick:
[b]This should be interesting. I wonder what he'll say...[/b][/quote]
I could make a good guess, knowing how racist some of the views brainwashed into the kids taught in some of the fundamentalist schools out there can be.
1. A number of fundamentalists have been making the OUTRAGEOUS claim that the whole September 11 affair was scheduled by the Jewish people to give Israel and the US an excuse to start a war with and kill off the entire Islamic world. I'd guess that's the pure and utter racist crap he'd claim.
2. Role? What role? I was uhhh...watching Friends at the time! That's the style of answer I'd expect. He'd probably then, as he's already done, say he's happy with the results and congratulates "those who did it."
3. Ditto. AKA, we all know he has a role, but he won't admit it except in an indirect and veiled "nudge nudge" sort of way.
4. Ditto.
5. I doubt he'd answer this honestly but would probably, instead, answer in a way he'd think would cause the most fear among the Americans. Let's face it. A large chunk of the population is acting far too paranoid with knee-jerk reactions.
6. I doubt he'd tell the truth. Instead, he'd probably twist an out-of-context quote from the Koran to mean what he wanted it to mean, rather than what it actually meant.
Fanatics tend to bend text to say whatever they'd like it to say, rather than what it really says.
See, I believe that mankind can fulfill its hopes and dreams without discarding all that has brought us this far. Not to say it won't happen, because I cannot predict the future. I won't even say it shouldn't happen, because I want to give people the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they can handle the extra power and responsibility.
I want to see, if anything, a US led coalition along the lines of the International Space Station. Much like the Earth Alliance of B5. As we work towards a common goal, we may learn more about each other and become more tolerant, resources can still be better allocated, but the risks are not there.
To my way of thinking, the EA-like organization would coordinate and oversee all issues that address the Earth as a whole. Mainly, space exploration, coloniation, and any first-contact situations. We would present a united front, and have one focus to all our skyward aspirations.
I'm all for working together towards goals that affect all of us, but I want my backyard to remain my backyard. I don't want anyone to have the power to restrict my freedom, my rights. Nobody needs that, but an all-encompassing international government could very well have it.
Nick
Disclaimer:
I'll say in my own words what I think he'll say (or the jist of it). This is only my opinion of what I think he will say, not my opinion on the questions.
ObL impersonation:
1. Your spokesman has praised the September 11 terrorist attacks that killed thousands of innocent people and threatened to carry out more attacks involving planes and tall buildings. How can you and your followers advocate the killing of innocent people?
1. We do not advocate the killing of innocent people. The American people are not innocent. They pay taxes to the American government that supports Israel and other corrupt regimes which oppress the people of Islam.
2. What was your role and the role of the al Qaeda organization in the September 11 attacks?
2. We were not involved in those attacks.
3. What was your role and the role of your organization in the subsequent anthrax attacks in the United States?
3. We were not involved in those attacks.
4. Did any of the September 11 hijackers or their accomplices receive al Qaeda financial support or training at al Qaeda bases in Afghanistan, and was any other government or organization involved?
4. No comment
5. In the past, you called on your followers to acquire weapons of mass destruction -- nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. Do you or your followers have any such weapons and, if so, will those weapons be used?
5. We have access to weapons of mass destruction and will use them in our fight for the nation of Islam.
6. The vast majority of Muslim and Arab leaders, including Muslim clerics and Palestinian Authority leader Yasser Arafat, say there is no justification in Islam for the terrorist attacks you advocate. They have denounced you, your followers, and your self-declared holy war. How do you respond to their criticism?
6. Many of them say that because they are afraid of U.S. military strikes against their countries.
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"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
Comments
[b]JD- Yes, you're right...Neutron Bombs require a thermonuclear trigger (heat+pressure). [/quote][/b]
I thought it was a hydrogen bomb that required a smaller nuke explosion to trigger the larger device, but I'll bow to your superior knowledge...I'm not the MFE/materials type - you are [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
[quote][b]Re: size of the "Davy Crockett" shell: point taken. But...while the package for the artillary was small, it still required the "high quality" shaped charges to detonate. I doubt that capability to produce that is readily available in Afghanastan. Especially after, oh, Sunday.[/quote][/b]
I never said it would be easy (or possible, for some states) to fabricate a nuclear weapon. I was just stating that small nuclear devices are possible, and were created back in the 50s and 60s. The Davey Crocket was a nuclear bazooka. Yes, nuclear bazooka [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
If I remember right, it looked something like a pregnant Panzerfaust from WWII.
If we could build something that small during or just after the Korean War era (the Korean War resulted in a LOT of _very_ odd weapon platforms either tested or in our inventory at the time), imagine what the extra 40 years have done to our (and the Russians') ability to turn out small nuclear weapons.
I seriously doubt we could turn out a .22 or 5.56/7.62mm rifle-sized bullet nuke, though...would that even be enough nuclear material to generate an explosion?
Shadow Boxer wanted to do the very same thing to us developers...
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
I'm not really up for it myself!
hah hah
JohnD:
It would be enough if the target was a mass just a hair sub-critical. The addition of the impact of a high speed bullet tipping the scales is the trick.
[b]It would be enough if the target was a mass just a hair sub-critical. The addition of the impact of a high speed bullet tipping the scales is the trick.
[/b][/quote]
I really don't think it works that way. In order to achieve critical mass, you need to pack the fissionable material into a smaller amount of space than it otherwise be possible in nature. What you're suggesting sounds like if there was enough of it just sitting there, it'd go nuclear.
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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
[b] I really don't think it works that way. In order to achieve critical mass, you need to pack the fissionable material into a smaller amount of space than it otherwise be possible in nature. What you're suggesting sounds like if there was enough of it just sitting there, it'd go nuclear.
[/b][/quote]
Yep, it does work that way. 2000 Million years ago in Africa, an number of natural Nuclear Fissioning Reactors formed:
[url="http://www.curtin.edu.au/curtin/centre/waisrc/OKLO/What/What.html"]http://www.curtin.edu.au/curtin/centre/waisrc/OKLO/What/What.html[/url] [url="http://www.alamut.com/proj/98/nuclearGarden/bookTexts/Lovelock_Oklo.html"]http://www.alamut.com/proj/98/nuclearGarden/bookTexts/Lovelock_Oklo.html[/url]
To quote: there are only 5 things needed to create nuclear fission:
- A natural enrichment of 235U compared to 238U
- A high overall concentration of U.
- A minimum or critical size to sustain the fission reactions.
- A low concentration of neutron absorbers.
- A high concentration of a moderator.
None of these requires an explosion or electronic trigger of any kind. As I understand it, merely removing a casing of neutron absorbers or moderators from a sufficiently highly enriched Uranium mass could cause a detonation (or just bringing two pieces together). A nuclear reactor is, at its simplest, merely a controlled nuclear bomb.
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[i]"I have looked into the darkness, Na'Toth. You cannot do that and ever be quite the same again."
All around us, it was as if the Universe were holding its breath... waiting. All of life can be broken down into moments of transition or moments...of revelation. This had the feeling of both."
"G'Quan wrote: 'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against Chaos and Despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future, or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"[/i]
Shadow boxer does not give up.
I did not say anything about not returning to your place of origin. You can go annoy the crap out of your sisters anytime you like. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
This is all just a concept anyways. Nutting out the exact details is of course cause for much debate, and not just on one little BB.
For a beggining I guess a TG passport could be issued like a regualar passport for a dual citizen, say for instance, a US citizen presents the correct forms and fee and gets a Terran passport.
The key here is to make the passport actually worth something other than a card full of idealistic virtue.
Access to a world wide currency, access to Terran territories like the one they should package Jerusalem in. Now that would be one hell of a way to get this kind of thing off the ground.
Access to the terran military and civil justice systems which could protect you from your previous national government...a real world court with real power and the big guys in olive drab and sky blue who go... "naughty naughty, you let those nice people go.... or that big floating city out there gets angry, very angry..."
Every stinking bitch fight warzone, around the world would suddenly become a target for 'aquisition' by the TG (Terran Government).
If country X keeps blowing the shit out of elements of its own populace or its neighbouring state...
then bang...
Terran Ulster territories to stop the Irish from smacking the crap out of each other.
Terran Jerusalem territories like I said.
Terran Gaza territories...
Terran Afgan...
Terran Next-nasty-little-war-zone..
etc etc etc
Suddenly everyone who gets involved in a territorial/power struggle finds that if they don't play nice, they lose it to the TG.
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] If we South Aussies decided to use tanks and artillery instead of football to beat the Victorians I wouldn't bitch if the TG blue boys moved in to break it up.
I should also say.. that provided the TGP actually carried the weight it should...
..then I would be
Terran in a heartbeat.
What benefits would there be? I refuse to give away the powers of a soverign nation to people who do not care about the nation. Nobody is going to tell me what I can and cannot do in my own home (nation, in this case), and to restrict my rights in other parts of the world for non-membership seems to conflict with what I assume the philosophy to be. Thing is, you will never get people to forget where they came from, or their own personal agendas. You might end up with Terran representatives from 'the area formerly known as China' declaring that because all the Chinese people have a low standard of living, all people from the 'area formerly known as the US' will be taxed halfway to the poorhouse to equalize things. What's to protect the people? And why should I be willing to take the risk?
The main reason I am so reluctant to give up my nation is that the government here was created by men who wished to ensure freedom and justice for everyone. It was the coming together of a patchwork of people from all walks of life, with differing beliefs, willing to sacrifice anything and everything for their fellow man to be free. We are bound together by our conviction that a man should be judged as who he is, not for who his father was, or what he looks like, and certainly not for what kind of cards he carries in his wallet. You say this is an ideal. It's not much of an ideal to take even a bit of my freedom for not joining.
Nick
"When travelling abroad, make sure you always have your Terran card. It's everywhere you want to be...... And if you don't have one, we won't let you in."
Aside from the implications, that is just a dam cool [b]URL[/b]!
Do you know if this the same bacteria that is found in Nuclear Reactors today? And if so, did it originate from the ore(s) that were mined?
Gives you an idea why we have to be very clean with the equipment we send into space to other worlds...
Thanks for posting it...
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
The first part of the second URL especially...
[quote]
***Excerpt from LoveLock, James: The Ages of Gaia (1988)
A bizarre consequence of the appearance of oxygen was the advent the world's first nuclear reactors. Nuclear power from its inception has rarely been described publicly except in hyperbole. The impression has been given that to design and construct a nuclear reactor is a feat unique to physical science and engineering creativity.
It is chastening to find that, in the Proterozoic, an unassertive community of modest bacteria built a set of nuclear reactors that ran for millions of years.
[/quote]
[This message has been edited by JackN (edited 10-12-2001).]
This URL is interesting...
[url="http://www.alamut.com/subj/evolution/progress/vinge_singularity.html"]http://www.alamut.com/subj/evolution/progress/vinge_singularity.html[/url]
What are your thoughts?
It reminds me of the "SkyNet" in the Terminator movies, and some older Sci_fi like Colossus(sp?) I think it was, where the US had our "aware" computer, and the Soviets had Gaurdain, etc.
Only now, we don't need to worry about room sized computers because the damn things are so small...
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
and remember you dont have a monopoly on democracy, on freedom, on class free society, on melting pot multiculturalism.
A Terran govenment is another tier, not the complete dissolution of nations...
Just like the UN as it stands now. Members tithe to the UN, so why not to a more formal arrangement ?
As far as the US being taxed to death... I have always stated that its proportionate...
You are the largest fiscal nation on Earth... but you still pay 5% of your GNP. 5% of the US GNP ammounts to a freakin lot...
Somalia might cough up enough to buy one jeep... but thats 5% of thier GNP.
Thats equality is its most basic form.
Coughing up 5% of your landmass, ( and if you read carefully I stated that it wasn't "the crappy dessert bits" ), is a big ask and just how to decide which bits is a nightmare and there would be a humungus bitch session if that landmass was simply 'decreed' to be Terran without just cause.. ( like the war example ). I guess the Terran government being the new kid... will mean it has to buy real estate.
Some people are very territorial, they'll piss on the proverbial furniture.
Others don't, and that includes me. If I'm safe, well fed and I have the few things I like to have I dont much care if my name is on the title deed or not.
I'd love to have the means or the karmic gift to be able to 'walk the earth' like David Harradine... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
I like my country, no doubt.. but I don't have to paint my face with red, white and blue or green and gold...
So many people get so caught up in 'belonging' to patriotism, parochialism and what exists basically within a hundred square miles of where they are.
So many isolationists, so many people obesessed with 'thier patch' Don't for a second think that I'm going yank-bashing. There's plenty of local yobbos who bellow and grunt "OZ OZ OZ OZ OZ !" all day long.
sigh......
Go listen to 'Imagine' by John Lennon,
and acutally think about the lyrics...
John takes it a few hundred steps further than what I'm suggesting... and sad to say the world isn't even ready for what I've put forward....
A world alliance should serve as a uniting force that helps guide our species as a whole, but it sould not pretend to know better than a community how to run a neighborhood and keep it safe. If we keep that principle in mind that a world system can work, but first we need to deal with the terrorists, dictators, and oppresive reigimes
that keep our planet in conflit.
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We Live as one, We die as one, We will face the darkness as one.
"Understanding is a Three Edged Sword- Your side, Their side, And the Truth...."
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
I guess every song is open to interpretation
[b]Do you know if this the same bacteria that is found in Nuclear Reactors today? And if so, did it originate from the ore(s) that were mined?[/b][/quote]
As I understand it, the two bacteria are not related; they just reached the point of radiation tolerance through parallel evolution. It's also interesting to note that this spontaneous nuclear reaction couldn't happen in nature today, since the 235U has decayed, and doesn't exist in high enough concentrations naturally anymore.
[quote]Originally posted by JackN:
[b]Thanks for posting it...[/b][/quote]
No worries JackN, just remembering something from high school science that fascinated me.
[quote]Originally posted by JackN:
[b]This URL is interesting...
[url="http://www.alamut.com/subj/evolution/progress/vinge_singularity.html"]http://www.alamut.com/subj/evolution/progress/vinge_singularity.html[/url]
What are your thoughts?
It reminds me of the "SkyNet" in the Terminator movies, and some older Sci_fi like Colossus(sp?) I think it was, where the US had our "aware" computer, and the Soviets had Gaurdain, etc.[/b][/quote]
Definitely interesting, but I disagree. I hope it's not my species-ist pride that makes me think so. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
Here's another interesting one: [url="http://www.transhumanist.com/volume1/moravec.htm"]http://www.transhumanist.com/volume1/moravec.htm[/url]
I haven't done too much study in the area of AI, IA, PI, etc. but scientifically and philosophically, I think the complexity of the human brain, let alone the mind, will evade the machines for centuries to come, perhaps forever. JMS's B5 future, set 250 years ahead, seems most believable to me. Computers able to respond better to our commands, augment us, but not able to out-think us.
Deep Blue might be able to defeat Kasparov at Chess after days of competition, but it cannot shake hands after the match, let alone walk out the door, have a conversation with his wife, feel emotion or have an Original Thought.
IMHO, the physical and functional complexities of the Human brain will only be able to be simulated by human neurons, which we mightn't ever really understand. Not that all these AI techniques aren't amazingly interesting, it's just that I think the secrets of constructing a comparable mind will remain outside our comprehension. No Universal computer is going to pass the Turing Test any time soon.
If the Mind was simple enough for us to understand, we'd be so simple we couldn't.
Asimov wrote a great story (can't remember the name) about a manual worker rediscovering hand arithmetic, after it had long been lost in the 'computer designs computer designs...' history. The sting in the tail was what the Generals decided to do with this 'new' technology!
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[i]"I have looked into the darkness, Na'Toth. You cannot do that and ever be quite the same again."
All around us, it was as if the Universe were holding its breath... waiting. All of life can be broken down into moments of transition or moments...of revelation. This had the feeling of both."
"G'Quan wrote: 'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against Chaos and Despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future, or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"[/i]
However, such a government, like every successful government the world has ever seen, would have to be created by the common will of the people, because unless they want it and believe in it, they will treat it as so many other tyrannical regimes that have come and gone and been forgotten in the past.
The reason I feel so strongly about my nation is more than history, or a sense of community, it is my belief that my government is simply an extension of my own beliefs that human beings have fundamental, natural rights that cannot be justly taken, or even willingly sacrificed. I believe in the primacy of man, rather than in the primacy of government. No matter what anyone does, no matter what laws anyone passes, I will live free. If neccessary, I will die to protect freedom, my own, or that of _anyone_ else who cares.
Any talk of world governments frightens me, because it is usually from people who think that because they are doing what they believe to be the right thing, they can just go ahead and seize power, or seize land, or do any number of other things without proper representation, or due process of law.
Look at the UN, for all the good they try to do, the Security Council is composed of un-elected officials. If I don't like what the UN is doing, what can I do? Can I vote anyone out of office? Can I start a referendum or initiative to restrict their power? No. I am helpless. And for those that don't know, Sudan, one of the biggest human rights violaters in the world, is now on the Security Council. Fitting, I guess, alongside China.
Another fear I have is that the larger and more powerful a government becomes, the more corrupting the influence of that power becomes on those who fill its ranks, and the harder it becomes for the people to change its course. If you could place me in any political party, it would probably be Liberetarian (unfortunate how many loonies there are in the group). Quite simply, the government does not need to do much, because as a rational human being, I am capable of taking care of my own business. The government should do only those things which the common man cannot be expected to do himself, like diplomatic relations, national defense, mail service, roads, and a few others. So when people start talking about any form of world government, and propose powers it would have over me, I fear for my freedom.
Before you can convince most of the people that a world government is a good thing, you have to tell me how I know it won't take my freedom, how it will be fair and just to all people, everywhere, regardless of who happens to hold power at the moment, that it will not be a massive, oppressive bureacracy, with accompanying massive, oppressive cost, and that there is a need. The UN only came to be after a world war that nearly destroyed Western civilization. Why do we need this?
Nick
ps. sorry for the knee-jerk reaction, but enough world government people have absolutely no regard for freedom that I feel my fear is justified. Although, perhaps not towards your ideas. Show me if I was right or wrong. Why do we need this?
Yeah that's interesting too...
I'm especially amused at the almost linear track of processing vs. memory in that one chart. So we're about at the point between mouse and monkey generally speaking.
But that only takes into consideration the mechanics, not the nuances of emotion, feeling, etc.
I agree with you concerning duplicating the mind of a man or exceeding it, much less a lower order animal any time soon.
My fear is the fear that may be unfounded but still haunts me when we reach that point where we have made our machines so (smart isn't the right word I think here) self sustaining, that they start designing themselves and there descendants.
At this critical point in time, they may discover new paths and make the breakthroughs that we would never come to, because they are NOT human or thinking as a human, and they'll be doing it at blinding speeds, with less and less overseeing of the process, after all, how would we keep up for one thing, and it would take time to absorb the new concepts they discover.
Like the terminator concept, they don't need us anymore, and may take on the self preservation instinct with fervor, before we can pull their plug in our fear. Their concepts of ethics or logic (if they have it) may be so vastly different in such a short amount of time as to be truely alien.
Maybe I've been watching too much Sci-Fi, but everything else we have ever created has had a tendancy to get out of our control.
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
I could see some damn fool giving the keys to the Nuclear Chevy to his creation trusting blindly that this new life form would have our best interests at heart...
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
there will always be attendant problems with any government
absolute power corrupting absolutely.... etc etc etc.
but in the end we need to get unified and get off this little rock... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
[b]...and some older Sci_fi like Colossus(sp?) I think it was, where the US had our "aware" computer, and the Soviets had Gaurdain, etc.
[/b][/quote]
I actually SAW that movie [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
-Rick
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[i]"...Never start a fight...but [b]always[/b] finish it."[/i]
[b][url="http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/10/16/ret.binladen.questions/"]CNN submits six questions to bin Laden[/url][/b]
-Rick
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[i]"...Never start a fight...but [b]always[/b] finish it."[/i]
[b]This should be interesting. I wonder what he'll say...[/b][/quote]
I could make a good guess, knowing how racist some of the views brainwashed into the kids taught in some of the fundamentalist schools out there can be.
1. A number of fundamentalists have been making the OUTRAGEOUS claim that the whole September 11 affair was scheduled by the Jewish people to give Israel and the US an excuse to start a war with and kill off the entire Islamic world. I'd guess that's the pure and utter racist crap he'd claim.
2. Role? What role? I was uhhh...watching Friends at the time! That's the style of answer I'd expect. He'd probably then, as he's already done, say he's happy with the results and congratulates "those who did it."
3. Ditto. AKA, we all know he has a role, but he won't admit it except in an indirect and veiled "nudge nudge" sort of way.
4. Ditto.
5. I doubt he'd answer this honestly but would probably, instead, answer in a way he'd think would cause the most fear among the Americans. Let's face it. A large chunk of the population is acting far too paranoid with knee-jerk reactions.
6. I doubt he'd tell the truth. Instead, he'd probably twist an out-of-context quote from the Koran to mean what he wanted it to mean, rather than what it actually meant.
Fanatics tend to bend text to say whatever they'd like it to say, rather than what it really says.
I want to see, if anything, a US led coalition along the lines of the International Space Station. Much like the Earth Alliance of B5. As we work towards a common goal, we may learn more about each other and become more tolerant, resources can still be better allocated, but the risks are not there.
To my way of thinking, the EA-like organization would coordinate and oversee all issues that address the Earth as a whole. Mainly, space exploration, coloniation, and any first-contact situations. We would present a united front, and have one focus to all our skyward aspirations.
I'm all for working together towards goals that affect all of us, but I want my backyard to remain my backyard. I don't want anyone to have the power to restrict my freedom, my rights. Nobody needs that, but an all-encompassing international government could very well have it.
Nick
I'll say in my own words what I think he'll say (or the jist of it). This is only my opinion of what I think he will say, not my opinion on the questions.
ObL impersonation:
1. Your spokesman has praised the September 11 terrorist attacks that killed thousands of innocent people and threatened to carry out more attacks involving planes and tall buildings. How can you and your followers advocate the killing of innocent people?
1. We do not advocate the killing of innocent people. The American people are not innocent. They pay taxes to the American government that supports Israel and other corrupt regimes which oppress the people of Islam.
2. What was your role and the role of the al Qaeda organization in the September 11 attacks?
2. We were not involved in those attacks.
3. What was your role and the role of your organization in the subsequent anthrax attacks in the United States?
3. We were not involved in those attacks.
4. Did any of the September 11 hijackers or their accomplices receive al Qaeda financial support or training at al Qaeda bases in Afghanistan, and was any other government or organization involved?
4. No comment
5. In the past, you called on your followers to acquire weapons of mass destruction -- nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. Do you or your followers have any such weapons and, if so, will those weapons be used?
5. We have access to weapons of mass destruction and will use them in our fight for the nation of Islam.
6. The vast majority of Muslim and Arab leaders, including Muslim clerics and Palestinian Authority leader Yasser Arafat, say there is no justification in Islam for the terrorist attacks you advocate. They have denounced you, your followers, and your self-declared holy war. How do you respond to their criticism?
6. Many of them say that because they are afraid of U.S. military strikes against their countries.
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"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live