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moon hoax help...once again..

OK, this whole lunar landing hoax thing is a BIG peeve of mine, pisses me off something awful nowadays...

Anyhoo, staying with my Sister and her husband over the summer...and tonight on National Geographic Channel they had a whole thing "Debunking the myth that the landings were faked".

Good, right? Well...no. They did a half assed job, and now my sister and her husband are even more certain that the landings were faked.

The BIG two reasons I can't get past right now, are the flag "Waving" (No shit sherlock, no atmosphere to hinder it...) Which they insist it waves too much and too far for there to be no wind...GAH.

And...no photos of the landing site.

OK, second one I get a little more confused on how to explain to them.
I understand that Hubble can only resolve things about 20 meters across on the moon, and that the European moon probe was roughly the same...so they couldn't see it. And ditto for land based telescopes.

Now...someone help me explain WHY in laymans terms that Hubble can see galaxys..and lots of them, but not a landing site on the moon? And why a land based telescope can see the rings on saturn, but not the landing sites?

Remember...laymans terms, stupid simple.

Gah. Probably a lost cause anyway, it just pisses me off that they write the lunar landings off as a matter of opinion rather than fact or not. (Thats their own words..."Matter of opinion, don't get worked up over it!")


ARGH

Comments

  • croxiscroxis I am the walrus
    Have you referenced this?: [url]http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html[/url]
  • Alec MAlec M Award Winning Poster
    Gah! I'm so tired of this, I hardly have the energy anymore to keep linking to the same sites over and over.

    Hubble:
    [URL="http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/solarsystem/hubble_moon.html"]http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/solarsystem/hubble_moon.html[/URL]
    [URL="http://hubblesite.org/reference_desk/faq/answer.php.id=77&cat=topten"]http://hubblesite.org/reference_desk/faq/answer.php.id=77&cat=topten[/URL]

    You should ask your sister if she can see microbes on her finger when it's an inch away from her eye. No? Well that makes no sense! After all, she can see buildings down the street can't she, and they're so big and far away!

    Flags:
    [URL="http://www.clavius.org/envflutter.html"]http://www.clavius.org/envflutter.html[/URL]

    You know what, just go to this whole site:
    [URL="http://www.clavius.org/"]http://www.clavius.org/[/URL]

    Do these people think microwave ovens are magic, and that cars are powered by pixie dust? Seriously, I have no idea how some people function with such a limited scientific knowledge. It doesn't even bother them that they don't know how things work.

    *sigh*
  • croxiscroxis I am the walrus
    And the hilarious thing is that no one would make it through the day without implementing the scientific method at some level at some point for something.
  • BigglesBiggles <font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
    My favourite way to deal with the telescope argument is to hold a book with standard-size print less than 1cm from their eyes, and ask them to read what it says.
  • StingrayStingray Elite Ranger
    The only thing that I believe is fake are the photographs and it's quite eloquently explained in this clip from this documentary:

    [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU5YyolUHAw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU5YyolUHAw[/URL]

    And when you think about it, it makes perfect sense, and I can understand why they did what they did.

    I've been to the Cape and I've seen the Apollo hardware used first-hand and I have been to a few shuttle launches, there's nothing fake about that. The Saturn-V rocket is HUGE.

    As for the reasons why we can't see the hardware left on the moon from earth is a question of optics and resolution. Some of that is explained here:

    [URL="http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=134"]http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=134[/URL]

    Anyway, since the documentary above features some of the most famous compulsive liars ever, it's not difficult to understand why people have a hard time believing a single word that they are saying.

    In short, what do you do when you don't have proof that you've been somewhere and everybody's watching? :D
  • HuntSmackerHuntSmacker Firstones Ambassador to Starcraftia
    Lovely comebacks as always. Stupid conspiracy theorists. :P
  • Entil'ZhaEntil'Zha I see famous people
    Stingray, i love the Apolo building out at Kennedy, that thing is HUGE, we were there for the night launch last december, frickin Awesome.
  • StingrayStingray Elite Ranger
    The VAB (Vehicle Assembly Building) is probably still the largest building in Florida. Just google for NASA VAB pictures and you'll see how big this baby is. Just the scale of this thing is hard to comprehend, and when you think that the shuttle is only half as high as a Saturn-V rocket was...

    [IMG]http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/models/pix/shtlsatv.jpg[/IMG]

    And then when you look at pictures of the shuttle and the size of regular cars next to it, they start to look like toys...

    [URL="http://www.nasa.gov/lb/returntoflight/multimedia/Pad-Rollback.html"]http://www.nasa.gov/lb/returntoflight/multimedia/Pad-Rollback.html[/URL]

    Again, if you get the chance to go to Florida, make sure to drive by the Cape and check it out, there is no other place like it anywhere else on this planet.

    And then come back and tell me it's fake... and I'll kick you in the nutsack. :D
  • MessiahMessiah Failed Experiment
    Ive been there, and its probably just a figment of my imagination.. :p
  • FreejackFreejack Jake the Not-so-Wise
    [img]http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/116575main_rollback1150-s.jpg[/img]

    I so wanna drive that thing...

    Jake
  • HuntSmackerHuntSmacker Firstones Ambassador to Starcraftia
    Hot dayum that rocket is big!
  • croxiscroxis I am the walrus
    It goes 1 mph loaded, and because it is a government vehicle you have to wear a seatbelt
  • hahaha yeah I remember that. That place was so cool, I want to go back.
  • BigglesBiggles <font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
    [QUOTE=Stingray;161877]The only thing that I believe is fake are the photographs and it's quite eloquently explained in this clip from this documentary:

    [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU5YyolUHAw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU5YyolUHAw[/URL]

    And when you think about it, it makes perfect sense, and I can understand why they did what they did.[/QUOTE]

    That "documentary" doesn't make perfect sense. It doesn't make [i]any[/i] sense.
  • StingrayStingray Elite Ranger
    [QUOTE=Biggles;161899]That "documentary" doesn't make perfect sense. It doesn't make [i]any[/i] sense.[/QUOTE]

    That depends on what you mean by [I]any[/I]. :D

    I watched the whole thing and I'm not sure what they are talking about either, except for the camera bit. Of course it's a documentary, anything that isn't scripted is a documentary, oh, wait, this one was scripted.... oh, well, can't win them all.

    I know it gets confusing once Rumsfeld is starting to make sense. :D Can you believe how long he's been in office? He must be a Highlander, there is no other explanation.
  • DarthCaligulaDarthCaligula Elite Ranger
    [url]www.enterprisemission.com[/url]
  • BigglesBiggles <font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
    The thing with the cameras has been shown to be wrong.

    [url]http://www.clavius.org/envradfilm.html[/url]

    Let us also not forget that there were TV cameras on the moon broadcasting live footage, which were not affected by the environment to the point of being useless (except for Apollo 12's, when Al Bean pointed it directly at the Sun). It is also relatively easy to shield against radiative heat transfer, which is the only kind heating up the moon and causing those extreme temperature differences the person interviewed claimed would have destroyed the camera and film, by simply making your device white and/or reflective. Even without this, heat transfer is pretty slow. Temperatures on the Moon don't stay at one of two extremes with nothing in between, either.

    [url]http://www.clavius.org/envheat.html[/url]
  • StingrayStingray Elite Ranger
    I don't know, I still have a hard time believing in those moon pictures, I mean those guys (Armstrong, Aldrin and their successors) were astronauts, not photographers. The pictures released are of studio quality, you can't make me believe that you can take pictures of that quality on the moon in those hostile conditions. I mean, have you tried taking pictures outdoors, at night? Those moon pictures are sharp and flawless. How likely is that? I think the odds are astronomical. The stars in the background are too weak to show on film, but still, I'm convinced most of the original photos were too bad to be published. I mean this was a multi-billion dollar family fishing trip to the moon, and not a single good picture to show for it? I mean, we know how to build cameras that can withstand years of radiation, the probes we've sent to our planets are proof that we can. But it's one thing to have an appropriately shielded camera, another to take good pictures. ;)

    The footage from the moon is of relatively low quality and since it was broadcast, temperatures do not play as much into it. I'm not arguing about the live footage, although that could be just as easily faked by slowing down the frame rate. Again, Kubrick has done much better work. :D

    Again, I'm just not convinced about those glorious pictures... they are a bit like Steven Spielbergs dinosaurs in Jurassic Park, too good to be true.

    The subsequent moon landings would have given them opportunity to rectify those issues, I suppose, but initially, its doubtful.
  • BigglesBiggles <font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
    Ah, another tired, old argument.

    [url]http://www.clavius.org/photoqual.html[/url]

    [QUOTE=Stingray;161910]The footage from the moon is of relatively low quality and since it was broadcast, temperatures do not play as much into it. I'm not arguing about the live footage, although that could be just as easily faked by slowing down the frame rate. Again, Kubrick has done much better work. :D[/QUOTE]

    Temperature [i]does[/i] play into it if you're arguing that the camera gets so cold that the lens shatters, which is what the person in that video you linked to claims.
  • StingrayStingray Elite Ranger
    [QUOTE=Biggles;161911]Temperature [i]does[/i] play into it if you're arguing that the camera gets so cold that the lens shatters, which is what the person in that video you linked to claims.[/QUOTE]

    Now that's funny, you are using a false argument (from the "documentary") against my theory of doctored images. He said, the [I]film[/I] would shatter, not the [I]lens[/I]. ;)

    It's nice to know that we can look at "genuine" pictures of the moon missions, now that you can do anything in Photoshop it seems hardly relevant. :D

    I'm kidding... I think I need to check out NASA's website more closely. I guess they should have made those pictures available sooner...
  • Mr_BesterMr_Bester Earthforce Officer St Louis MO
    If I give my six year old daughter a camera, send her to the grand canyon and she shoots 1500 pictures, you'll end up with several keepers. You could hand a camera to a monkey and get the same thing. You don't have to be a photographer to get great shots. Also, they did receive training on those cameras and some other photo training.
    Dug
  • Entil'ZhaEntil'Zha I see famous people
    Mmmm monkeys, monkeys are cool, except when they throw poop.

    A few pics from my last trip to Kennedy
  • JackNJackN <font color=#99FF99>Lightwave Alien</font>
    The Saturn V is still my favorite Real Life Rocket. 1969, the days when brute force was used to push a camel through the eye of a needle!

    ;)
  • BigglesBiggles <font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
    [QUOTE=Stingray;161912]Now that's funny, you are using a false argument (from the "documentary") against my theory of doctored images. He said, the [I]film[/I] would shatter, not the [I]lens[/I]. ;)[/quote]

    My mistake. I recalled him saying the lens would shatter but didn't want to dirty my mind with watching an idiot again to make sure. He did say something about the lens, although I don't remember what, and the TV cameras clearly worked fine despite not being that different from the still-photo cameras.

    [quote]I'm kidding... I think I need to check out NASA's website more closely. I guess they should have made those pictures available sooner...[/QUOTE]

    They've been available for about as long as NASA has had a website and the money to pay someone to scan thousands of photos. I'm sure if you had wanted them before the days of the Internet, a request to NASA Archives would have got them.
  • Entil'ZhaEntil'Zha I see famous people
    JackN,

    It still amazes me at what they were able to accomplish with the Gemini and Apollo missions, with the technology that was available.

    it's amazing stuff.



    big guns..
  • StingrayStingray Elite Ranger
    [QUOTE=Biggles;161932]They've been available for about as long as NASA has had a website and the money to pay someone to scan thousands of photos. I'm sure if you had wanted them before the days of the Internet, a request to NASA Archives would have got them.[/QUOTE]

    I've never bothered to look for moon landing pictures before. I usually don't dwell on the past but I'll make an exception here. ;)

    I've visited the facilities several times, once they had an "open doors" event and I've been in both launch control rooms, the Apollo and the space shuttle ones. I've been 5 inches away from the shuttle Discovery while it was in the orbiter processing facility (that's the hangar where the shuttle is still parked horizontally, where they check and replace the heat shield tiles and engines).

    [URL="http://www.flickr.com/photos/silverstein/316154658/"]http://www.flickr.com/photos/silverstein/316154658/[/URL]

    Unfortunately we were not allowed to take any pictures... but it's quite amazing. The facilities aren't very sexy, so you won't see anything as flashy as Star Trek, but what you do see actually works. :D The cape looks more like a factory site than a spaceport, so it's very functional and not pretty.
  • Entil'ZhaEntil'Zha I see famous people
    I've been there 3 times now, once 2 years ago, and twice last year (one on the first launch day, when the launch was scrubbed due to weather, then again on the 2nd launch day when they thought it was going to be scrubbed, but it launched)

    the first time, there was not a shuttle in sight, all the shuttles were locked up tight in the proccessing facilities. However, you know how on the tour they take you out to that big viewing platform near the pads? well that platform was closed for repairs, so instead of stopping the bus there, they drove us out to the Pads. No shuttle was on them, but it was still awesome, getting to see Pads 39A and B from a few yards away... priceless.

    The 2nd time, since it was for a launch, i did get to see Discovery out on the Pad.

    We are ofcourse, going to go back again this winter when we are in Florida, partly because i love the place (and there is supposed to be another Launch then) but also because they have their new Shuttle Liftoff Simulator done. and i'm dying to give that a go.
  • PJHPJH The Lovely Thing
    About the telescope issue, it's not a matter of how far can actually be seen something. It's a matter of how accurately that something can be seen. Like mentioned above it's about resolution. Also small things might not always be bright enough to be seen either. They aren't strong enough light sources.

    It's often easy to see just light even very far away, but it's not easy to see the details, often not even possible. Distances in space are so vast that you can mostly see just blurred spots of light of anything. Making out any small details from those distances is simply impossible.

    - PJH
  • CiberCiber Earthforce Officer
    i remember asking about the lunar landing too... (yeah the pictures didnt have stars on it hummm ¬¬)
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