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Some interesting precience from 1992

MarcMarc Zathras in Training
in Babylon 5
The author of this piece was the guest on our local NPR call-in show today (the Marc Steiner Show). I found his comments to be very insightful. Here is a link to an article he wrote way back in 1992 that I believe provides a good background on the current situation:
[url="http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/foreign/barberf.htm"]http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/foreign/barberf.htm[/url]

Marc

Comments

  • RickRick Sector 14 Studios
    I really have to restart that susbscription to "The Atlantic."

    Thanks for the link, Marc.

    How's everyone holding up back your way?

    -R.

    ------------------
    [i]"...Never start a fight, but [b]always[/b] finish it."[/i]

    [This message has been edited by Rick (edited 09-21-2001).]
  • RandyRandy Master Storyteller
    Great read. Thanks, Marc.
  • BigglesBiggles <font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
    That is a good read. He has a point about the whole tribalism thing. The western world wants everyone to live in the country style, while many parts of the world are still used to the idea of having tribes, not countries.

    ------------------
    [b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
    Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
    The Balance provides. The Balance protects.

    "Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras

    [This message has been edited by Biggles (edited 09-21-2001).]
  • MelkorMelkor Elite Ranger
    Biggles, I don't think we really care so long as you don't fly 767's full of passengers into high-rise buildings in some of the worlds largest cities.
  • An ex-SquidAn ex-Squid Elite Ranger
    What Melkor says is usually quite true (especially here in the US); most people in the "Western world" could care less about what goes on in places like the Middle East or Africa so long as events there don't have an effect on Western countries. We condemned Saddam Hussein for his invasion of Kuwait (and went to war with Iraq) largely because of the effect it had on oil prices at the time and not because of the atrocities commited there by his forces (although Western leaders would like us to believe otherwise); until Sept. 11, few people in the West paid much attention to the Taliban in Afganistan and even fewer people are aware of the many atrocities committed by the Taliban "in Allah's name" (even though there is nothing in the Koran which justifies the commission of such acts).
  • BigglesBiggles <font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
    The average citizen may not, but the general policy of the western world is the modernise the rest in order to give them a better quality of life, an admirable goal. Many people in the rest of the world don't want this though. They think the entire world should live like they want, in a fundamentalist, heavily religious society. Here the two ideas collide.

    ------------------
    [b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
    Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
    The Balance provides. The Balance protects.

    "Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
  • MarcMarc Zathras in Training
    Biggles, I have to disagree. The West really doesn't care about the third world's quality of life. All they (we) are interested in is creating markets and exploiting cheap labor and natural resources. Another issue which never seems to come to light is that that region including Afganistan and Chechnya in particular, are the leading producers of opium and hashish. Now if I were paranoid, I'd begin to wonder if major world governments might just like to protect or procure a part of that pie. Remember Noriega? All he did wrong was tell Papa Bush that he wanted a bigger slice of the cocaine traffic through Panama. Look where that got him.

    I have a friend ( [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] who was a small time dealer in hash back in college ( in the mid to late 80's -the height of the Muhajideen resistance in Afganistan) I saw a few bricks of hash he had. Written in gold paint, in English, were pro-resistance slogans and thanks for your support messages. My friend explained that the CIA was letting this stuff through as it was one way the Afgani'scould fund the resistance against the Soviets. Take it for what it's worth.

    On another note here's Michael Moore's take on recent events: [url="http://www.michaelmoore.com/2001_0912.html"]http://www.michaelmoore.com/2001_0912.html[/url]

    Marc
  • RickRick Sector 14 Studios
    And that's one thing that is going to have to change. What I had absolutely no real concept of, before all of this, was how hypocritical some of our policies can appear to people outside of this nation.

    Most notably: we help defend the Arab nations that supply us with oil, yet we pour an insane amount of hardware into the middle east that ends up being used against the Palestinians.

    I don't want to get into a discussion of "who's right, and who's wrong," because, quite frankly, anyone commiting warfare in the name of God obviously hasn't read word one of any religious text in the history of the mankind. Or they horribly perverted it to serve their own means.

    You just don't do that.

    Jihad is not a word in the Koran. A Crusade is never mentioned in the bible.

    Warfare is what happens when two parties refuse to work things out in a reasonable fashion, or when one nation just absolutely refuses to play by the rules the rest of the world accepts as common decency.

    Same goes for killing.

    Death is a serious thing, and when it is decided to kill someone, that decision is made by man, not by God, because that person was deemed to be unable to function within the rules that their society established.

    I view a terrorist bomber as being no different from someone who would go to, say, Jerusalem right now, expecting that whatever happens them to be the will of God.

    When you place yourself in harms way, whether it be via suicide, or by making the choice to be in a place NEAR where people commit suicide bombings, it's all the same to me. I don't see how one can expect to get "bonus points with God" for being stupid.

    Now, selfless acts of sacrifice that others might live is completely different, and that's what makes me so proud right now. The part of America that I love were those brave men of Station #18 that were the first up the stairs, and never came down. When they slipped the bonds of this life, and passed on to the next, they surely will have a special place waiting for them.

    Tolerance is something we all need to learn. Not just Americans, but all over the world. I'm glad to see that our leaders are preaching tolerance. Hopefully that message will go beyond our borders. Hopefully our foreign policy will move to align to that now.

    We have to learn to accept that some people are different, and some governments are different; we also have to learn that the worst thing anyone can do is to try and tell another nation or national that they have to change their ideals to match ours.

    Ideals are forged by the neccessary lessons that the experience of life and history teach you. Deprived of the experience, ideals are just hollow words--you have to understand their cost to appreciate their value.

    -Rick


    ------------------
    [i]"...Never start a fight...but [b]always[/b] finish it."[/i]

    [This message has been edited by Rick (edited 09-25-2001).]
  • WaylanderWaylander Earthforce Officer
    If you haven't already, you might like to check out The Onion online:
    [url="http://www.theonion.com/onion3734/index.html"]http://www.theonion.com/onion3734/index.html[/url]

    Particularly "God Angrily Clarifies 'Don't Kill' Rule"

    ------------------
    [i]"I have looked into the darkness, Na'Toth. You cannot do that and ever be quite the same again."

    All around us, it was as if the Universe were holding its breath... waiting. All of life can be broken down into moments of transition or moments...of revelation. This had the feeling of both."
    "G'Quan wrote: 'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against Chaos and Despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future, or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"[/i]
  • TheSaintTheSaint Ranger
    "Hijackers Surprised To Find Selves In Hell." ROFL

    ------------------
    "God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
  • BigglesBiggles <font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
    The Onion did a really good job. That God one, even though it is meant to be funny, still rings very true.

    ------------------
    [b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
    Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
    The Balance provides. The Balance protects.

    "Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
  • JackNJackN <font color=#99FF99>Lightwave Alien</font>
    While I don't believe it should be used as a justification or an excuse for killing, the original text of the Ten Commandments actually specifically calls out against "Murder", not to "Kill". There is a difference.

    There are times, in the defense of life, health, liberty, and even property, where killing is not concidered a sin, even by human laws.

    It is still very serious, and holds a very special responsibility to the one who feels compeled to use this means. It should be a last resort when all other froms of resolving an issue are exhausted, and as a response to a threat, not as a premptive agressive attack.

    I find this trend that has occured over the last few decades to tame the masses by gradually and subtly redefining the words and phrases we hold so dear to us very disturbing.

    I place it along side the same trends that are occuring to strip us of our constitutional right to bear arms and our rights to privacy here in the USA. I as well place it along side the trend of our lawmakers and lawyers that attempt to pervert the definitions of our laws so as to reward the guilty, and abuse the victims in our judicial system.

    The original meanings of our laws and declarations put down by our founding fathers have been edited by revisionist historians, and people from outside our borders who attempt to push their national agendas on our system of government.

    What's worse is the putrifying conversion of real Faith's and their message of brotherhood into social gatherings that glorify buildings and bank accounts, or bring to power the questionable leaders we have seen all to often.

    If you want to see a person of real Faith, look outside America, into the heart of a poor country, at the father who breaks his back for a whole day just to give bread to his family. That man has more courage, love, and devotion than any preacher, priest, or pastor I have seen in this country. He'd likely give some of his bread to a destitute man that stumbles acrossed his doorstep without question, and without hesitation.

    Well anyway...

    I'm rambling...

    [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
  • SanfamSanfam I like clocks.
    In a related story, God, creator of life, as well as this planet itself, organized a press conference regarding his policies.
  • BigglesBiggles <font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
    That isn't just a related article, Sanfam. That [b]is[/b] the article. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]

    ------------------
    [b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
    Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
    The Balance provides. The Balance protects.

    "Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
  • WaylanderWaylander Earthforce Officer
    Sorry JackN, have to disagree with a couple of points (though not that selflessness designates a truly admirable human being).

    [quote]Originally posted by JackN:
    [i]While I don't believe it should be used as a justification or an excuse for killing, the original text of the Ten Commandments actually specifically calls out against "Murder", not to "Kill". There is a difference.[/i][/quote]

    Argument by Biblical quotation is usually fairly pointless, since it relies on both sides recognising the literal truth of every single passage of a contradictory document. However, for those who believe in an afterlife:

    [quote][i]Deuteronomy 32:34-36 Vengeance is mine; I will repay. In due time their foot will slip; their day of disaster is near and their doom rushes upon them."
    Romans 12:19 Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written: "Vengeance is mine; I will repay," says the Lord.
    Romans 12:17 Render to no-one evil for evil. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.
    Hebrews 10:30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."
    Proverbs 20:22 Do not say, "I will repay evil''; Wait for the Lord, and He will save you.
    Proverbs 24:29 Say not, "I will do so to him as he hath done to me": I will render to the man according to his work[/i][/quote]

    [quote]Originally posted by JackN:
    [i]There are times, in the defense of life, health, liberty, and even property, where killing is not concidered a sin, even by human laws.[/i][/quote]


    I'd certainly recognise the right to defend oneself, even up to killing another. However, what purpose (apart from satisfying bloodlust or desire for revenge) is served by the current bombings? The perpetrators if these atrocities were Evil. Many are beyond any punishment we can imagine, let alone enact.

    Of the living, if we could find the single ringleader, the one who conceived, funded and excectued the appaling murders, what would we do to him? Would we kill his entire family on worldwide television, in such a way that he was in agonies of fear, despair and hope that may never be decided? Could we trap him helplessly, 100 stories above the ground, causing him such despair that he leapt to the pavement below? Would we force him to call his wife and children on his mobile phone, knowing he was about to die? Could we vapourise him with aviation fuel, and drop thousands of tonnes of rubble on him to separate each of his component molecules from the other? Could we do this 6,000 times? And that would just be to get even.

    There is nothing we can do to him that even remotely approximates what he has forced others to suffer. Any attempt we make would merely lessen our own humanity, individually, and as a whole.

    [quote]Originally posted by JackN:
    [i]I place it along side the same trends that are occuring to strip us of our constitutional right to bear arms...

    The original meanings of our laws and declarations put down by our founding fathers have been edited by revisionist historians, and people from outside our borders who attempt to push their national agendas on our system of government.[/i]
    [/quote]

    Revisionist history works both ways, Jack [quote](apologies to Toby Ziegler, Aaron Sorkin & The West Wing):
    [i]"[Why don't you] recognize what the Second Amendment clearly establishes, the right to keep and bear arms?"
    "Because it clearly doesn't say that. In fact, it doesn't say that at all. The only way it says that is if you remove some words from it. It says, 'A well-regulated militia, being necessary for the security of a free state, the government shall not infringe...' The words 'regulated' and 'militia' are in the first sentence. I don't think the framers were thinking of three guys in a Dodge Durango."
    "You don't really know what the framers were thinking, do you?"
    "No. But I do know that if you combine the populations of Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark, and Australia, you get a population roughly the size of the United States. We had 32,000 gun deaths last year; they had 112. You think it's because Americans are more homicidal by nature? Or do you think it's because those guys have gun-control laws?"[/i][/quote]

    I don't want to make light of gun control, since I know not all opponents are red-neck right wing sociopaths; even some Vorlons are on the side of the NRA. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/eek.gif[/img] However, if you hadn't gathered, I'm not a big fan of revenge, in the form of death penalty, or whatever. Killing is wrong. Killing in the name of justice is still killing. If everyone refused to kill, the world would be a far greater place. I do sympathise deeply with the other point of view, I hope I never have to test my principles against personal experience of such Evil. I'm sure all of us would be different people if we'd grown up in Kosovo, Hebron or Somalia.

    Just my AU$0.02 (with the current exchange rate that's less that US$0.01, or worth nothing. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] )


    [quote]Originally posted by JackN:
    [i]I'm rambling... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
    [/i][/quote]

    I'll forgive you if you forgive me [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]

    ------------------
    [i]"I have looked into the darkness, Na'Toth. You cannot do that and ever be quite the same again."

    All around us, it was as if the Universe were holding its breath... waiting. All of life can be broken down into moments of transition or moments...of revelation. This had the feeling of both."
    "G'Quan wrote: 'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against Chaos and Despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future, or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"[/i]
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