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Have you heard the latest?
Two conflicting reports coming out of Afghanistan at the moment.
The first, rather unconfirmed report is that they will possibly allow bin Laden to be taken to a neutral country for trial provided the US removes trade sanctions against them.
The other report, which is the one most radio/tv stations are spreading because it apparently came from Afghanistan's radio station and is a statement from the government: Afghanistan has declared Holy War on the United States.
I pray that the first is true, but I have a horrible feeling that the second is the true one. Today is the day they were due to decide what to do about bin Laden.
PS the second report arrived in NZ about 1 minute before the news started at 6pm.
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
The first, rather unconfirmed report is that they will possibly allow bin Laden to be taken to a neutral country for trial provided the US removes trade sanctions against them.
The other report, which is the one most radio/tv stations are spreading because it apparently came from Afghanistan's radio station and is a statement from the government: Afghanistan has declared Holy War on the United States.
I pray that the first is true, but I have a horrible feeling that the second is the true one. Today is the day they were due to decide what to do about bin Laden.
PS the second report arrived in NZ about 1 minute before the news started at 6pm.
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
Comments
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'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen
Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://www.nialb5.com"]B5 site[/url].
[b]The other report, which is the one most radio/tv stations are spreading because it apparently came from Afghanistan's radio station and is a statement from the government: Afghanistan has declared Holy War on the United States.
[/b][/quote]
This is why religious fanatics have no business running a country, And its kind of a cop out, if they declare an actual war, they know they will be bombed out of existance, so they declare a holy war.
Gah.
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..And so it Begins
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
However, Holy Wars ('Jihads' in Arabic) are far more frightening as the reason behind them is unclear. This, combined with the fact that such wars (100 years war for example) are always (as the name suggests) religiously orientated. People go to war over who is right about the nature of our very existance, and when this is challenged people can go insane. This insanity leads to people losing their 'humanity' and committing terrible attrocities in the name of religion.
The other thing that is so terrifying (especially for agnostics such as myself) is that when people participate in Holy Wars, the fact that they do it 'in the name of their chosen God' can often be hugely intimidating. Which has the effect of making peopole believe that when attrocities are committed it is not people simply being evil, but something far more frightening.
I hope most of that made sense. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
Cherio.
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Catapvltam habeo. Nisi pecvniam omnem mihi dabis, ad capvt tvvm saxvm immane mittam.
Mater tva criceta fvit, et pater tvo redolvit bacarvm sambvcvs.
[This message has been edited by Shuup Nick (edited 09-18-2001).]
To make a long story short, they are [b]****ed[/b] if they try anything with us.
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These Islamic Fundamentalist nations declare these things all the damn time. It's nothing new and nothing scary.
They have been overused so much they have lost all meaning. These aren't the Crusades anymore folks. I mean, how many times has the Palastineans declared a Jihad against Israel?
I say PSSHT whatever to their Jihad. Empty threats.
As for the first report. Afghanistan can stick that. They are in no position to offer demands to us!
Fighting a war in Afghanistan would be disasterous for the US, especially a ground war. Soviet troops experienced guns that froze in the high mountains, tires that melted and tank engines that blew up from the desert heat. Combine the environmental difficulties with the enemy and their well established network of tunnels and caves and you're going to run into some heavy casualties. Also, the Afghans would have almost no fear of dying, or at least most of them, which can't be said about most US troops (although they will die well).
It's going to be messy.
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[url="http://slade__tek.tripod.com/"]Alec McClymont, 3D Artist[/url]
3D Artist - GVFX
We live for the one. We die for the one.
A. Defending neighboring countries (i.e. Pakistan, because it supported us)
B. Special Ops missions.
Although I do agree, invasion is not smart, and I doubt that it is an option.
Also, we have the support of the world. The world against one nation is a pretty tilted fight on the playing scale.
I would hate to be a special-ops guy who's dropped into unknown, hostile terrain, and ordered to sneak into some cave and kidnap someone who's guarded by at least 50 heavily armed guards who are willing to die to protect the guy you're suppose to get out.
I mean I wish them good luck, but come on, they don't even have a clue as to where in Afghanistan Osama Bin Laden is.
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[url="http://slade__tek.tripod.com/"]Alec McClymont, 3D Artist[/url]
3D Artist - GVFX
We live for the one. We die for the one.
Perhaps if America did not involve itself with bin Laden in the first place, current events might not have happened????
This is some of my thoughts and is not meant to offend anyone and I'm sorry if it does...
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Emperor Turhan: How will this end?
Kosh: In fire
We have the advantage of new technologies that will make the Afghans less effective. No longer will the Afghans just lay still on the desert ground as a Hind flew overhead not being able to see them.
U.S. Gunships will have the advantage of nightvision but most importantly thermal sensors. We will be able to easily see anybody on the ground in that environment.
The Afghans will be easy prey and hunted untill they are all dead or surrender. I really should say Taleban, since alot of Afghanistan is fighting them.
The AntiAir missiles you are thinking of rhett are the American made Stingers. Pretty effective weapons that home in on heat.
The Soviets devised ways of countering the threat of these missiles. Before that their losses were quite heavy, but afterwards the losses did go down.
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I have my reservations about fighting on the ground in Afghanistan, but with the large support from the World it can and will be successful.
Even now the British are deploying the largest fleet since the Falkans to the Middle East. Belgium has committed ground forces to our cause along with Australia.
People are tired of Terrorism and the losses we will experience in Afghanistan will be small compared to what happens if we do nothing and wait for the next big terrorist attack.
Six Thousand dead is a high price already. We can't allow these organizations to exist and operate anymore waiting for the next six thousand or even more.
We will experience some casualties, but in the long run a great many more lives will be saved by these actions.
Can you elaborate further on this? Are you referring to the Soviet's and Afghanistan or sometime later?
This was made worse when the USA never (and still hasn't) withdrawn all it's forces from the region. They're still there to "protect" against another Iraqi invasion. It was at this point that Bin Laden began bombing US military bases in the middle east, in an attempt to get the US to withdraw once and for all. However this didn't work, so Bin Laden began escalating his strikes.
After the bombing of the US embassies in Africa, the US struck back with cruise missiles. One of these missiles hit a parmeseutical factory in Sudan, which the US thought was producing chemical weapons. By doing this, the US committed an act of WAR against a country with which the US has diplomatic relations, and did so without giving any warning. As it turns out (as a result of several independant investigations), soil samples at the factory found no sign of chemical weapons substances (this is still disputed).
So it's basically been going back and forth for a while now. The WTC attack, while completely appauling, is not unexpected.
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[url="http://slade__tek.tripod.com/"]Alec McClymont, 3D Artist[/url]
3D Artist - GVFX
We live for the one. We die for the one.
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[url="http://slade__tek.tripod.com/"]Alec McClymont, 3D Artist[/url]
3D Artist - GVFX
We live for the one. We die for the one.
Again, the Taliban declares these wars ALL the time. Against the Northern Alliance, against Russia, against Iran...
Streets and concrete may be hotter than the human body, but police helicopters have no problem tracking and following people running in cities.
Besides, the point of using the thermal sensing equipment is to look for those who are hiding, standing on rocks big enough to try and hide a group of soldiers...isn't hiding and shouldn't be too hard to spot even without the current gear we have. =P
I would expect the Afganhs to use basically the same tactics they used against the Soviets. Mainly wait for enemy aircraft, run out of your tunnel, fire a missle, and run back in. Thermal sensors can't see through rock. Aircraft alone will not do that much damage (same situtation that the USA encountered in Vietnam). A large ground presense will be needed, which means a large number of casualties. It all depends on how many soldiers the American people are willing to sacrifice.
This will NOT be another Gulf War, in which the USA hardly lost anything. As I said before, it's going to be messy.
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[url="http://slade__tek.tripod.com/"]Alec McClymont, 3D Artist[/url]
3D Artist - GVFX
We live for the one. We die for the one.
[This message has been edited by Slade (edited 09-19-2001).]
The President is preparing people for war and casualties. But after losing more people in the bombings than in the Normandy Invasion, not going in and doing what is needed isn't an option anymore.
We can't wait for more bombings any longer. We can't wait for the first terrorist to use Nuclear weapons against a western city.
Terrorist infrastructure and networks must be destroyed, even with casualties.
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As for the Taliban living in holes and firing at helicopters, that is a possiblity. But there have been methods developed by the Soviets that help relieve alot of the casualties that come from hand held surface to air missiles.
Hopefully these methods and other counter measures have been improved in the last 12 years or so.
Because of Russian cooperation and the Northern Alliance cooperation, we don't have one big problem the Soviets had, and that was no intelligence on the ground. I am hoping that the Northern Alliance has some good detailed information on Afghanistan. Which I think they should, since it is their country. =)
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Good civil discussion. =)
[b]The other report, which is the one most radio/tv stations are spreading because it apparently came from Afghanistan's radio station and is a statement from the government: Afghanistan has declared Holy War on the United States.
[/b][/quote]
America has basically declared a Jihad of their own (It's a war for what they as a whole supposedly belive in, it threatens their values, they belive they are correct and all other are wrong etc etc)
But you are right, we do have to try.
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[url="http://slade__tek.tripod.com/"]Alec McClymont, 3D Artist[/url]
3D Artist - GVFX
We live for the one. We die for the one.
I can only imagine in 20 years what kind of nuclear weapons and how small they will be.
Look how simple rocket technology has gotten. People are putting rockets into orbit from their backyard.
As we advance in technology, things get simpler in our lives. Unfortunately the bad shit comes right along with it. =[
One does not need special electronics, special explosives, etc. A simple Uranium 235 or Plutonium pellet/core mechanism will suffice.
Any of your remember the "Grable" test shot in the 50's? It is the same test shot that is in the mushroom cloud image I've used elsewhere in the threads (read: Nuclear Fwapp!).
A simple artillery shell with a core and pellet mechanism (like an early torpedo firing mechanism) was fired from one of those big army guns and produced one of the strongest nuclear test yields during those years.
A person could carry a substantial sized weapon in a back pack, with enough fissionable material, a hammer and a nail, and somebody with nothing to lose and...
well... You get the idea.
Optimal use of a weapon such as that would be from 1000-2000 feet off the ground, instead of at street level. The blast wave does more damage at the ground level, because it acts like a plow with the wave in rebound.
Tests in the 50's found that at 1500 feet, you get the optimal damage of ground targets.
I have to disagree about the target though. I think New York will still be the first love of any Nuclear Terrorism. And, with the affore mentioned qualities, it will likely happen in a high rise in Manhattan.
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/frown.gif[/img]
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
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[url="http://slade__tek.tripod.com/"]Alec McClymont, 3D Artist[/url]
3D Artist - GVFX
We live for the one. We die for the one.
But I'm not a terrorist, and I do not have any weapons (hell, the only thing in this house is a .22 rifle with no ammo and a damaged barrel). This is just what I'd think someone would do. Right now, symbolism has been used, and points may have been made, but for the real impact, taking out America's hub of transportation would be the biggest blow.
The terrorists hit the Superbowl.
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras