[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Arethusa [/i]
[B]It's the same fucking shit. Ron Moore turned the show into Star Trek.
Seriously, though, backstory continuity bothers you more than everything else that has been a complete fucking disaster in the last three episodes? Well, get ready, because in two weeks it's hat trick + 1! [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah I know, they have been treading a little too close into falling into Star Trek style. The reason this one bothers me more is that the other episodes could just be written off as the unevitable crappy episodes that are bound to happen every now and then. My concern is this is the first time that a lot of major backstory is blatantly torn up and tossed out the window.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vorlons in my Head [/i]
[B]Yeah I know, they have been treading a little too close into falling into Star Trek style. The reason this one bothers me more is that the other episodes could just be written off as the unevitable crappy episodes that are bound to happen every now and then. My concern is this is the first time that a lot of major backstory is blatantly torn up and tossed out the window. [/B][/QUOTE]
Man, [i]this[/i] was the inevitable crappy episode. The last one, where they completely rewrote characters and subverted the entire narrative structure of the show? That was the big one.
At this point, the show is pretty much dead to me. I'm really only watching to see when the final nails are driven in.
Man, you people have a REALLY low tolerance for entertainment...for the record I consider myself educated, and I acknowledge the plot holes, but I am STILL entertained by this show and enjoy it thoroughly....the show is dead to you? wow.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by RedAssAg05 [/i]
[B]Man, you people have a REALLY low tolerance for entertainment...for the record I consider myself educated, and I acknowledge the plot holes, but I am STILL entertained by this show and enjoy it thoroughly....the show is dead to you? wow.
Disclaimer: I am still DRunk [/B][/QUOTE]
What does education have to do with entertainment?
As Londo said: "What does love have to do with marriage?" :D
Considering that the boxing episode is mainly a framing device for flashbacks to the lost year, I think the next episode will actually be pretty good. Besides, after all the times Apollo has denigrated Helo and his family, I'm looking forward to Helo kicking his no longer fat ass.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by RedAssAg05 [/i]
[B]Man, you people have a REALLY low tolerance for entertainment...for the record I consider myself educated, and I acknowledge the plot holes, but I am STILL entertained by this show and enjoy it thoroughly....the show is dead to you? wow.
Disclaimer: I am still DRunk [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree... and I'm sober. ;)
I'm going to reiterate my earlier comment: this is stll the best show on televison. And I'm willing to suspend disbelief a little more if it means enjoying an otherwise well written, acted, and directed show. Even Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron struck out a few times.
Of course, you're all entitled to your respective opinions and if you want to "give up" on the show, then by all means do so. I would only politely ask you not to add too much negativity and nitpicking to the discussion.
But it's [i]not[/i] well written or well directed, and the acting gets increasingly suspect every episode (largely thanks to the shitty writing and directing). This isn't nitpicking minor errors in chronology. This is a cavalcade of disastrously mediocre work.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Space Ghost [/i]
[B]
Of course, you're all entitled to your respective opinions and if you want to "give up" on the show, then by all means do so. I would only politely ask you not to add too much negativity and nitpicking to the discussion. [/B][/QUOTE]
Not to sound like an ass, but its a discussion. Like all the episodes I've thought were good when everyone thought they sucked, I also feel entitled to post when I feel something was very wrong and I just didn't like it. Its just my opinion however negative or positive it may be, and you're entitled to disagree with it. I thought the timeline issue's sucked ass, and I'm not going to post gally gee that was wonderfull just to not upset others. The reason I stick around these threads is to see how my opinion compares to what all you have to say because the discussion is always good. If I can not point out what I think are negative aspects then the point of a discussion is rather pointless.
You can argue that its ok to disregard these issue's because the show makes up for it on others. Thats fine, but I think once you start doing that the whole quality thing quickly deteriorates. Part of a well written story is to have no majorly contradicting plot holes! There are tons of other shows out there that we consider crap because they continuosly pull that sort of thing of for the sake of individual episodes. I will hold BSG up to the same standard I hold any other show.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vorlons in my Head [/i]
[B]Not to sound like an ass, but its a discussion. Like all the episodes I've thought were good when everyone thought they sucked, I also feel entitled to post when I feel something was very wrong and I just didn't like it. Its just my opinion however negative or positive it may be, and you're entitled to disagree with it. I thought the timeline issue's sucked ass, and I'm not going to post gally gee that was wonderfull just to not upset others. The reason I stick around these threads is to see how my opinion compares to what all you have to say because the discussion is always good. If I can not point out what I think are negative aspects then the point of a discussion is rather pointless. [/B][/QUOTE]
Of course you can voice your opinion, bad or good.
Perhaps my choice of words was poor. What I was saying is making a statement like "I'm giving up" or "this show is complete shit" (or something similar) isn't really a discussion in my opinion. Of course you're free to make that claim but I don't feel it's really constructive, that's all. I just wanted to keep peace between those who still like the show (such as myself) and those who don't so it doesn't become hostile.
On a side note, the following was taken from [url]http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Hero[/url] where they analyzed Adama's dossier. (I assume someone had a DVR and a HDTV.)
[QUOTE]Laura Roslin reviews a dossier prepared for her by Billy on her first day aboard Galactica. It includes large photos of the battlestar Galactica, a photograph of the CIC crew of the battlestar Valkyrie, a (mostly illegible) certificate bearing Saul Tigh's name, and a cursory biography of William Adama, reprodued in full below:
Commander William Adama
* Born H5/21290 and raised on the colony of Caprica, in Qualai, a small coastal community
* Mother, Evelyn Adama, an accountant.
* Father, Joseph Adama, a prominent attorney who specialized in criminal defese and civil liberties.
Military Service
D6/21311 First comission, Battlestar Galactica, fighter squadron
E4/21312 Commendation for shooting down Cylon fighter in first combat mission.
D5/21314 Mustered out of service post-armistice
R6/21317 Served as Deck Hand in merchant fleet and as common […] aboard inter-colony tramp freighters
D1/21331 Recomissioned to Fleet
D6/21337 Major: Battlestar Atlantia
R8/21341 Executive Officer: Battlestar Columbia
C2/21345 Commander: Battlestar Valkyrie
C2/21348 Commander: Battlestar Galactica[/QUOTE]
I never said I'm giving up on the show ;) It will take a lot more than that! Even if BSG tanked lower there's hardly anything better worth watching. My only other favorite shows are Nip/Tuck and Resue Me. But that doesn't mean its ok for BSG to drop in quality simply because there is nothing better anyway. If you go back to all the BSG threads you'll see I'm one of its most ardent supporters since about the first 30 minutes the mini series aired. That is precisely why everything has led up to my latest comments. This show has done much and Ron Moore and David Eick know way better than that.
Anyway, If you think I'm being rough in my opinion you should go to the sci-fi boards!
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Space Ghost [/i]
[B]On a side note, the following was taken from [url]http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Hero[/url] where they analyzed Adama's dossier. (I assume someone had a DVR and a HDTV.) [/B][/QUOTE]
I briefly noticed that but that is part of my complaint. They tried to hammer the story to fit into the established plot because they needed it to work for just that episode. The failure is it just goes against a lot of preconceptions establised all the way back to the miniseries.
This is one of the more civil of the similar countless threads that have come up on the same subject discussing where they went wrong.
Lol, I think this post summarizes it pretty well: "The broader point is that by futzing with everything, they've accomplished the biggest let-down since George Lucas told fans that The Force was nothing but microscopic bugs. "
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by David of Mac [/i]
[B]Considering that the boxing episode is mainly a framing device for flashbacks to the lost year, I think the next episode will actually be pretty good. Besides, after all the times Apollo has denigrated Helo and his family, I'm looking forward to Helo kicking his no longer fat ass. [/B][/QUOTE]
Helo, is a likable character, which is why I hope Apollo pummels his cylon loving ass to a pulp :P
[Spoiler]Interesting how a supposed Stealth ship failing to do its job doomed Adama's career. I suspect that Adama would not have seen being given Galactica as his final command a punishment. Well not in a way that his superiors would have seen it. Since he served on it before he probably would have liked to go back and command his old ship.[/Spoiler]
And can we please keep the swearing out of our replies please. I'm getting a bit fed up of some peoples comments on this thread. We are here to "discuss" the series, not get bloody verbal about it!
This might seem a odd questions but I wanted a answer. I'm wondering the fact that both Basestar and Battlestar end with the same word is this to desonate that there FTl capable or that there the biggest ship for they respective people. If so will other ships names end differently.
I would assume the Cylons took inspiration from the Colonial Fleet when they began constructing their capital ships. Thats assuming the Cylons originally called their main ship a basestar, its possible the Colonials gave it that name in the early days of the first war.
And can we please keep the swearing out of our replies please. I'm getting a bit fed up of some peoples comments on this thread. We are here to "discuss" the series, not get bloody verbal about it! [/B][/QUOTE]
Speaking of cursing. Did anyone notice they bleeped Adama during I think it was the conversation with Roslin? Seems EJO let something other than frack slip this time.
Yeah I did actually, was a bit funny. Would have thought they'd reshoot the scene. Could have been yet another slip up... may Ron has really really lost it... just like Lost at the mo.
Yep. When Bulldog was talking about how he left the Baseship because he felt "the institution no longer had anything to offer," Adama laughed and said he was "worried the cylons beat the ________ attitude out of" him. The muting was really pretty obvious.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Space Ghost [/i]
[B]On a side note, the following was taken from [url]http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Hero[/url] where they analyzed Adama's dossier. (I assume someone had a DVR and a HDTV.) [/B][/QUOTE]
In light of this information:
D5/21314 Mustered out of service
post-armistice
C2/21345 Commander: Battlestar Valkyrie
C2/21348 Commander: Battlestar
Galactica
The timeline does appear to be off...even if it had been an exact 40 years when the Cylons attacked, and even if the armistice was in the year 21314, that puts the year of the attacks at 21354, the discovery of New Caprica around 21355, and the current time circa 21356., so, three years ago would have been late 21352 to 21353. Approx. one year before the attacks, BUT during Adama's command on Galactica. He and Tigh being on Valkyrie for that mission [I]could[/I] be explained by his request to the admiralty that he wanted 'his people.' Adama was given Valkyrie specifically for this mission due--in part--to it's ability to make an FTL jump, something that Galactica had not done in some tim e (judging from Gaeta's comments in the mini-series when the Bucket made it's first on-screen FTL jump to Ragnar, Galactica had not spooled up its FTL drive in years).
So, I can buy that Adama was put on a special detachment and given temporary command of Valkyrie for the mission, bringin Tigh and Bulldog with him...but then that conflicts with Tigh's statement that it was THAT mission that landed Adama on Galactica...unless he meant that it landed Adama BACK on Galactica, and the 'Admiralty' had promised him a better command thatn Galactica following his completion of the recon mission...in which case, one would have do ask how [I]did[/I] Adama lose command of an FTL-capable combat-ready battle-star and end up on on the Galactica if not for the 'foul-up' of the recon mission.
I say we pretend they said Bulldog was on the Basestar for eight years instead of three, so everything makes sense. Additionally, Carl Lumbly is a little old for a lieutenant, but a longer incarceration will solve that nicely.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by David of Mac [/i]
[B]I say we pretend they said Bulldog was on the Basestar for eight years instead of three, so everything makes sense. Additionally, Carl Lumbly is a little old for a lieutenant, but a longer incarceration will solve that nicely. [/B][/QUOTE]
Exactly what I said. I think they should dub over the DVD and future broadcasts to fix the dates. :D I'm pretty sure they did that with EPiphanies and Downloaded when the flashback time on the text was found to not concur with what had happened earlier.
A longer timeline would have served the story way better. It would have even been a great twist. If the episode wanted to instill the notion that it was in fact the human incursion that led to a speed up of their plans it would make a lot more sense to having pushed it much farther back. Then Six having been infiltrated two years prior to Bulldogs capture (three before the attack) and Boomers two years before the attack would fit in nicely. It still goes doesn't jive too well with other aspects like Adama having a thing against networked computers etc. If Valkyrie was a more advanced ship then galactica then they're saying Adama developed his resistance to upgrading ships in his last year? Or was it just that ship because of what it meant to him during his days as a pilot? Seems to me thats something he would have carried with him since the end of the first was and onto all his other commands.
I doubt Adama would have ordered the Valkyrie's network to be taken down when he assumed command for the mission. Since it was much newer than Galactica, a ship like that would have relied on its network much more. So it would certainly have been something he brough with him from his early days as a pilot (and Vorlon's I've just noticed thats pretty much what you've just said). I'm sure "no networks" was drilled in everyones heads back then. Remembering what Tigh said about the Cylon boarding party they must have lost more than one battlestar to a boarding party that way during the 1st war.
Plus Adama would have expected some sort of promotion after the mission so he wouldn't have messed with the ship in that way.
It does highlight how clueless the Colonial military were though during the armistice. Moving from none networked battlestars to the high tech designs of the Pegasus, they must have felt over confident in dealing with a Cylon boarding party. Well it seems in the lead up to the attack on the colonies, the military really didn't know what they were doing.
Yes its in the series bible according to Ron Moore that tight was on board two battlestars that where boarded and destroyed by cylons. It might have made it into one of the deleted scenes from the flashbacks of him meeting Adama, but I can't remember. Thats why he knew exactly what they were going to do in Valley of Darkness during the boarding.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Falcon1 [/i]
[B]Ok I couldn't resist posting this link:
Honestly I just googled for images of the Galactica (for desktop pics) and the above came up. OMG she is so hot!! :p [/B][/QUOTE]
I already have the actual hard copy of the mag those pics came out in ;) You can go to Maxim.com and get the full spread there. They also have Tricia Helfer.
Comments
[B]It's the same fucking shit. Ron Moore turned the show into Star Trek.
Seriously, though, backstory continuity bothers you more than everything else that has been a complete fucking disaster in the last three episodes? Well, get ready, because in two weeks it's hat trick + 1! [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah I know, they have been treading a little too close into falling into Star Trek style. The reason this one bothers me more is that the other episodes could just be written off as the unevitable crappy episodes that are bound to happen every now and then. My concern is this is the first time that a lot of major backstory is blatantly torn up and tossed out the window.
[B]Yeah I know, they have been treading a little too close into falling into Star Trek style. The reason this one bothers me more is that the other episodes could just be written off as the unevitable crappy episodes that are bound to happen every now and then. My concern is this is the first time that a lot of major backstory is blatantly torn up and tossed out the window. [/B][/QUOTE]
Man, [i]this[/i] was the inevitable crappy episode. The last one, where they completely rewrote characters and subverted the entire narrative structure of the show? That was the big one.
At this point, the show is pretty much dead to me. I'm really only watching to see when the final nails are driven in.
Disclaimer: I am still DRunk
[B]Man, you people have a REALLY low tolerance for entertainment...for the record I consider myself educated, and I acknowledge the plot holes, but I am STILL entertained by this show and enjoy it thoroughly....the show is dead to you? wow.
Disclaimer: I am still DRunk [/B][/QUOTE]
What does education have to do with entertainment?
As Londo said: "What does love have to do with marriage?" :D
So what did you have to drink?
[B]So what did you have to drink? [/B][/QUOTE]
Um, lets see....
Screwdriver
Rum and Coke
'nother Screwdriver
Amber Bock
I think there was another mixed drink in there somewhere, but I don't remember. I just know I loaded them up.
[B]Man, you people have a REALLY low tolerance for entertainment...for the record I consider myself educated, and I acknowledge the plot holes, but I am STILL entertained by this show and enjoy it thoroughly....the show is dead to you? wow.
Disclaimer: I am still DRunk [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree... and I'm sober. ;)
I'm going to reiterate my earlier comment: this is stll the best show on televison. And I'm willing to suspend disbelief a little more if it means enjoying an otherwise well written, acted, and directed show. Even Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron struck out a few times.
Of course, you're all entitled to your respective opinions and if you want to "give up" on the show, then by all means do so. I would only politely ask you not to add too much negativity and nitpicking to the discussion.
[B]
Of course, you're all entitled to your respective opinions and if you want to "give up" on the show, then by all means do so. I would only politely ask you not to add too much negativity and nitpicking to the discussion. [/B][/QUOTE]
Not to sound like an ass, but its a discussion. Like all the episodes I've thought were good when everyone thought they sucked, I also feel entitled to post when I feel something was very wrong and I just didn't like it. Its just my opinion however negative or positive it may be, and you're entitled to disagree with it. I thought the timeline issue's sucked ass, and I'm not going to post gally gee that was wonderfull just to not upset others. The reason I stick around these threads is to see how my opinion compares to what all you have to say because the discussion is always good. If I can not point out what I think are negative aspects then the point of a discussion is rather pointless.
You can argue that its ok to disregard these issue's because the show makes up for it on others. Thats fine, but I think once you start doing that the whole quality thing quickly deteriorates. Part of a well written story is to have no majorly contradicting plot holes! There are tons of other shows out there that we consider crap because they continuosly pull that sort of thing of for the sake of individual episodes. I will hold BSG up to the same standard I hold any other show.
[B]Not to sound like an ass, but its a discussion. Like all the episodes I've thought were good when everyone thought they sucked, I also feel entitled to post when I feel something was very wrong and I just didn't like it. Its just my opinion however negative or positive it may be, and you're entitled to disagree with it. I thought the timeline issue's sucked ass, and I'm not going to post gally gee that was wonderfull just to not upset others. The reason I stick around these threads is to see how my opinion compares to what all you have to say because the discussion is always good. If I can not point out what I think are negative aspects then the point of a discussion is rather pointless. [/B][/QUOTE]
Of course you can voice your opinion, bad or good.
Perhaps my choice of words was poor. What I was saying is making a statement like "I'm giving up" or "this show is complete shit" (or something similar) isn't really a discussion in my opinion. Of course you're free to make that claim but I don't feel it's really constructive, that's all. I just wanted to keep peace between those who still like the show (such as myself) and those who don't so it doesn't become hostile.
Maybe I was wrong to do so.
[QUOTE]Laura Roslin reviews a dossier prepared for her by Billy on her first day aboard Galactica. It includes large photos of the battlestar Galactica, a photograph of the CIC crew of the battlestar Valkyrie, a (mostly illegible) certificate bearing Saul Tigh's name, and a cursory biography of William Adama, reprodued in full below:
Commander William Adama
* Born H5/21290 and raised on the colony of Caprica, in Qualai, a small coastal community
* Mother, Evelyn Adama, an accountant.
* Father, Joseph Adama, a prominent attorney who specialized in criminal defese and civil liberties.
Military Service
D6/21311 First comission, Battlestar Galactica, fighter squadron
E4/21312 Commendation for shooting down Cylon fighter in first combat mission.
D5/21314 Mustered out of service post-armistice
R6/21317 Served as Deck Hand in merchant fleet and as common […] aboard inter-colony tramp freighters
D1/21331 Recomissioned to Fleet
D6/21337 Major: Battlestar Atlantia
R8/21341 Executive Officer: Battlestar Columbia
C2/21345 Commander: Battlestar Valkyrie
C2/21348 Commander: Battlestar Galactica[/QUOTE]
Anyway, If you think I'm being rough in my opinion you should go to the sci-fi boards!
[B]On a side note, the following was taken from [url]http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Hero[/url] where they analyzed Adama's dossier. (I assume someone had a DVR and a HDTV.) [/B][/QUOTE]
I briefly noticed that but that is part of my complaint. They tried to hammer the story to fit into the established plot because they needed it to work for just that episode. The failure is it just goes against a lot of preconceptions establised all the way back to the miniseries.
This is one of the more civil of the similar countless threads that have come up on the same subject discussing where they went wrong.
[url]http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2254726&st=0[/url]
Lol, I think this post summarizes it pretty well: "The broader point is that by futzing with everything, they've accomplished the biggest let-down since George Lucas told fans that The Force was nothing but microscopic bugs. "
[B]Considering that the boxing episode is mainly a framing device for flashbacks to the lost year, I think the next episode will actually be pretty good. Besides, after all the times Apollo has denigrated Helo and his family, I'm looking forward to Helo kicking his no longer fat ass. [/B][/QUOTE]
Helo, is a likable character, which is why I hope Apollo pummels his cylon loving ass to a pulp :P
And can we please keep the swearing out of our replies please. I'm getting a bit fed up of some peoples comments on this thread. We are here to "discuss" the series, not get bloody verbal about it!
[B]
And can we please keep the swearing out of our replies please. I'm getting a bit fed up of some peoples comments on this thread. We are here to "discuss" the series, not get bloody verbal about it! [/B][/QUOTE]
Frack you buddy! There is that better? :D
[B]On a side note, the following was taken from [url]http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Hero[/url] where they analyzed Adama's dossier. (I assume someone had a DVR and a HDTV.) [/B][/QUOTE]
In light of this information:
D5/21314 Mustered out of service
post-armistice
C2/21345 Commander: Battlestar Valkyrie
C2/21348 Commander: Battlestar
Galactica
The timeline does appear to be off...even if it had been an exact 40 years when the Cylons attacked, and even if the armistice was in the year 21314, that puts the year of the attacks at 21354, the discovery of New Caprica around 21355, and the current time circa 21356., so, three years ago would have been late 21352 to 21353. Approx. one year before the attacks, BUT during Adama's command on Galactica. He and Tigh being on Valkyrie for that mission [I]could[/I] be explained by his request to the admiralty that he wanted 'his people.' Adama was given Valkyrie specifically for this mission due--in part--to it's ability to make an FTL jump, something that Galactica had not done in some tim e (judging from Gaeta's comments in the mini-series when the Bucket made it's first on-screen FTL jump to Ragnar, Galactica had not spooled up its FTL drive in years).
So, I can buy that Adama was put on a special detachment and given temporary command of Valkyrie for the mission, bringin Tigh and Bulldog with him...but then that conflicts with Tigh's statement that it was THAT mission that landed Adama on Galactica...unless he meant that it landed Adama BACK on Galactica, and the 'Admiralty' had promised him a better command thatn Galactica following his completion of the recon mission...in which case, one would have do ask how [I]did[/I] Adama lose command of an FTL-capable combat-ready battle-star and end up on on the Galactica if not for the 'foul-up' of the recon mission.
Any of that make any sense?
[B]I say we pretend they said Bulldog was on the Basestar for eight years instead of three, so everything makes sense. Additionally, Carl Lumbly is a little old for a lieutenant, but a longer incarceration will solve that nicely. [/B][/QUOTE]
Exactly what I said. I think they should dub over the DVD and future broadcasts to fix the dates. :D I'm pretty sure they did that with EPiphanies and Downloaded when the flashback time on the text was found to not concur with what had happened earlier.
A longer timeline would have served the story way better. It would have even been a great twist. If the episode wanted to instill the notion that it was in fact the human incursion that led to a speed up of their plans it would make a lot more sense to having pushed it much farther back. Then Six having been infiltrated two years prior to Bulldogs capture (three before the attack) and Boomers two years before the attack would fit in nicely. It still goes doesn't jive too well with other aspects like Adama having a thing against networked computers etc. If Valkyrie was a more advanced ship then galactica then they're saying Adama developed his resistance to upgrading ships in his last year? Or was it just that ship because of what it meant to him during his days as a pilot? Seems to me thats something he would have carried with him since the end of the first was and onto all his other commands.
Plus Adama would have expected some sort of promotion after the mission so he wouldn't have messed with the ship in that way.
It does highlight how clueless the Colonial military were though during the armistice. Moving from none networked battlestars to the high tech designs of the Pegasus, they must have felt over confident in dealing with a Cylon boarding party. Well it seems in the lead up to the attack on the colonies, the military really didn't know what they were doing.
[url]http://www.talkingdesktop.com/grace%20park%20battleStar%20galactica.htm[/url]
Honestly I just googled for images of the Galactica (for desktop pics) and the above came up. OMG she is so hot!! :p
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Falcon1 [/i]
[B]Ok I couldn't resist posting this link:
[url]http://www.talkingdesktop.com/grace%20park%20battleStar%20galactica.htm[/url]
Honestly I just googled for images of the Galactica (for desktop pics) and the above came up. OMG she is so hot!! :p [/B][/QUOTE]
I already have the actual hard copy of the mag those pics came out in ;) You can go to Maxim.com and get the full spread there. They also have Tricia Helfer.