First, I'm not making excuses here, but I believe there are several underlying factors that have driven the city to break down the way it did.
- First a government that is marginally effect, New Orleans has been know in the past for corruption and favoritism amoung city officals. Generally eveything works OK, until the city is overwhelmed, then the government becomes ineffectual.
- Second, the evacuation order provided little means to those who had none, it just assumed that people would get out. This meant that thousands upon thousands were left stranded with no option but to bear the storm out.
- Finally, related to the previous points, New Orleans has long been a place of have and have-nots and race. A vast majority of the poor are black and throughout New Orleans history have been treated as second class citizens. In the 1920s, when the levy's broke due to another storm, blacks were forced at gun point to labor on rebuilding the city. In the end, the richer, predominately white population had the means to leave the city, while the poorer populations had little choice but to stay.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vorlons in my Head [/i]
[B]I believe I heard thats exactly what is now being considered. Thats what happens when you build cities in swamplands and other places they don't belong. [/B][/QUOTE] [IMG]http://capitol.visit-washington-dc.com/Capitol-Building-4.jpg[/IMG]
This is a western country. This behaviour is not acceptable.
I don't often post in these forums any more, i haven't for quite some while. But seeing as i live less than 35 minutes from new orleans, i felt i should take the time to despell some rumors, and set some things straight as to what IS actually going on and what isn't, and why those things are happening the way they are. While the national coverage is, at times, very accurate in this situation, it is, at many other times, completely INACCURATE. We have been under local media coverage since the hurricane hit, therefore we are recieving the BEST and MOST ACCURATE information about the situation.
Where i live, in Baton Rouge, as i said we are lest than 35 min from new orleans, and even less from the total effected area. In Baton Rouge alone (a city of 300,000 - 400,000 in the greater EBR area), at the height of the hurricane over 200,000 people were without power, and that number is still over 50,000. Since the evacuation of new orleans our population has doubled, literally almost overnight. Baton Rouge is currently housing the greatest population of NOLA refugees as we are the closest major city to NOLA. (NOLA is an abbr. for New Orleans)
First i am going to address some of the previous posts in this thread.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Biggles [/i]
[B]I heard that there have even been shootings, including someone shooting a police officer in the head. It's disgusting. [/B][/QUOTE]
A police officer WAS in fact shot by looters several days ago, however he was not shot in the head. He is doing well and is expected to recover, he is resting in a Baton Rouge hospital.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Morden279 [/i]
[B]I honestly can't believe how serious this disaster is. I first thought I was mistaken when I heard the Mayor of New Orleans speculate that the death toll may be in the thousands. [/B][/QUOTE]
You are not mistaken at all. The death toll will be very very high. It is estimated that over 100,000 people remained in their homes (this is not counting the refugees in the superdome) during the hurricane. However you have to take into consideration the awesome reality of the amount of people that were able to leave the city. The greater new orleans area is home to 1.3 million people, not 400,000 or 500,000 as the national news has sometimes reported (that is the number for the city of new orleans ITSELF, not the outlying areas and suburbs). Of that 1.3 million, over 1 million people were evacuated in the 2 days before the storm hit. That is a monumental task and was handled with nearly 100% competence and management, there were little to no problems with the evacuation.
But as i said, the death toll will be very high. 80% of the homes in NOLA were at some point under water. However, in some of the outer suburbs, such as meterie and kenner, the water has receeded and the streets are bone dry again. Many of the people that remained in their homes were inendated with 8-12 feet of water in a matter of 2 or 3 minutes. It is inconceivable that a large number did not die in this time alone.
However many thousands made it to their attics, where they sought shelter from the rising waters. Those that were able, found ways to cut or punch through their attics to get onto their roofs. It is also most likely that many more died entombed in their attics as they were unable to break through to their roofs. The good news is that TENS OF THOUSANDS have been rescued from their roofs, not several thousand as many national services have reported. Helicopters and boats have been working non stop since the storm to rescue people, and the actual number of people rescued is again MUCH MUCH higher than some national services have reported.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by croxis [/i]
[B]Brother said hotels that haven't been damaged and those in surrounding areas have trippled their prices. [/B][/QUOTE]
(hey david, we're all ok here BTW)
Actually that's somewhat exaggerated. There are new laws in place in Louisiana that provide VERY VERY harsh penalties for anyone price gauging. Anyone convicted faces a minimum sentance of 5 years in prison. So thank god, that activity has been kept to a minimum. Not to say that it isn't happening at all though.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PSI-KILLER [/i]
[B]It is not like there was no warning, If the U.S. President goes on TV and says get out of the storms way and keep your family safe, I would be hail tailing it out of there. Boarderline cat4/5 hurricane you won't have to tell me twice.
I was in New Orleans back in 2000, It is shame with all those historical buildings, but historically the city was under water before and it always came back. the dikes were built in the 1920's and I am sure when they built it it wasn't for 80 years. [/B][/QUOTE]
Actually the president did not address the nation until AFTER the storm hit. You also have to remember that NOLA is told to evacuate for hurricanes, on average, 4 times a year for the past several years. And EVERY time prior, there has been little to no damage, and the trip was for no reason. Of course, this was a different situation, but u can see why many people stayed, they beleived it would be just like all the others, a waste of time. But they were wrong.
The LEVEES in NOLA are not 80 years old, and they were not built in 1920. True, there are some historic sites that have levees from that time, but they have not been active for many years. Nearly all of the levees in NOLA were rebuilt after hurricane camile in 1969, some of which were just completed as little as 3 years ago. However, hurricane camile was a cat3 storm, and the new levees were built to withstand that kind of damage, katrina was, of course, far worse.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by whitestar90 [/i]
[B]Tis bloody sad:( I dont know why people stayed there and if they had no means of getting out then surely the government could have tried to evac them no matter how hard it would have been.:( [/B][/QUOTE]
They did. Almost 100,000 people unable to evacuate themselves were evacuated by public transportation. The majority of people that stayed, stayed of their own free will, however misguided :(. The vast majority of people in the superdome, however, were what was left of those unable to evacuate themselves. During the hurricane there were over 30,000 refugees in the superdome (not the 9,000 or 10,000 that some early national services reported). Those people are being evacuated to Texas at this time. I haven't seen the latest figures, but i know the number had dropped to 0 there as of last night, but more are showing up from the city, and they are being bused out continuously, at about 12,000 per day. Keep in mind, it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to access NOLA by ground, there is now ONLY ONE WAY into or out of the city by ground, I-10 East. All smaller back roads are flooded, and the I-10 West bridge was destroyed.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Biggles [/i]
[B]As well as people shooting at each other and police officers, they're also now shooting at the people who have come to help, including those trying to get all those people in the dome out and military helicopters trying to survey damage and rescue survivors. [/B][/QUOTE]
That is true, there are a VERY SMALL minority of people that are doing things like this.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by croxis [/i]
[B]Evacuation at a hospital is being prevent because of a sniper [/B][/QUOTE]
This is also correct, however that situation was resolved a while back and evacuations are now continuing.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Tyvar [/i]
[B]Frankly Im not suprised by all these Hijinks. Louisiana is the most corrupt state in the union, its goverment is throughly corrupt, and the feds have a hell of a time keeping it down. This corruption translates into incompetancy on behalf of the City and State governments, who ultimatly call the shots even during times like this.
Frankly the Feds need to walk in say "our house" and take control of the whole place. [/B][/QUOTE]
HOW DARE YOU!? How dare you take shots at us during this time? That is the most dispicable horrible act anyone can do. You are as bad as the people raping and shooting people in NOLA. Don't you dare think you have any right to start spouting sh*t about Louisiana when you don't live here and you haven't the vaguest idea how this state operates or what goes on here. You are stereotyping Louisiana, you are stereotyping the people of Louisiana, and you are showing complete and utter ignorance.
The state of Louisiana is doing every single thing in it's power to help these people, but you know what the problem is? WE DON'T HAVE ANY FEDERAL AID! Thats right, it's not the state dragging it's feet, it's FEMA! There has been NO FEMA aid, NO federal aid WHATSOEVER. They all say it's coming, but where is it!? It's not here. No one's seen it. The governour has asked for it, PLEADED for it. But it's not here.
The situation in NOLA is getting worse by the hour people! it's not getting better. thousands are dieing every day. WHERE'S THE AID? WHERE'S FEMA? All these reports you hear, there's umpteen thousand troops here, theres all this aid. I'm here to tell you THAT IS NOT TRUE. They are NOT here. FEMA is not here. They may literally be sitting here in baton rouge, but they aren't doing ANYTHING immeadiate to help. Those breaks in the levees that the army corps of engineers has supposedly fixed or started to fix? IT DIDN'T HAPPEN, it's not fixed, and it hasn't changed in days. The people in NOLA have been without food and water for 5 days! 5 Days people! NO AID. If you are reading this PLEASE DO SOMETHING. Write emails to your congressman demanding they do something, write a check to the red cross, if you can get here to help, do it. This is a desperate situation, and it's not getting better, it's getting worse. If you can do ANYTHING, do it. This city, this area, produces 25% of this nation's oil, and the feds can't do a thing to help RIGHT NOW!? COME ON!
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vorlons in my Head [/i]
[B]I believe I heard thats exactly what is now being considered. Thats what happens when you build cities in swamplands and other places they don't belong. [/B][/QUOTE]
And how dare you? at this time? This isn't the time to sling insults.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by shadow boxer [/i]
[B]Just remember people, over 100,000 people died in the Asian Tsunami. The hardship, death and destruction was and still is, vastly larger than New Orleans. The hardship will be short lived and in some way repaired within the USA. The countries smashed up by the Tsunami will spend many many years recovering. Granted, New Orleans is a mess, yes there are scums of many shades in the flooded streets, but its a long way from the scale of that suffered elsewhere.
[B][/QUOTE]
NO that's where your wrong. It's 10 times worse than you've heard. Boats are literaly pushing through floating bodies. Bodies are everywhere. It IS as bad as the tsunami. It's OUR tsunami. Don't for one minute think this is any less dire... We have state senators commondering buses to drive to NOLA THEMSELVES to get people. FEMA just came on the local news saying they didn't know of bad situations at the NOLA convention center, or what's developed at the superdome. WHAT THE HELL IS THAT!? IT'S ALL OVER THE NEWS. WHAT ARE YOU DOING FEMA!? Why are state senators having to drive in buses themselves to get people! why isn't the federal government going in with hundreds of buses and getting our people out!??! We were told last FRIDAY that aid was already here, already on the way... IT IS NOT HERE. Take it from me, I AM HERE. THE FEDERAL AID IS NOT.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Morden279 [/i]
[B]If what Fark said is even partly correct, Sod the National Guard, the authorities should send in the Marines with bloody armoured support. [/B][/QUOTE]
PLEASE PLEASE write a congressman, TELL PEOPLE THIS. WE NEED THE HELP. i don't care if you live across the globe, please do something. Our government dropped tons of food on asian countries 2 days after the tsunami, and we can't send one ton of food to a major US city in the same situation, AFTER 5 DAYS!? 5 DAYS!?!?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Freejack [/i]
[B]
- Second, the evacuation order provided little means to those who had none, it just assumed that people would get out. This meant that thousands upon thousands were left stranded with no option but to bear the storm out.[/B][/QUOTE]
As i said before, this is not true.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Cabl3 Guy [/i]
[B]Well it sure ain't the fuckin sunshine state!
*claps* [/B][/QUOTE]
i don't even know what to say to that kind of nonsense.
I don't know what else to say... I mean you drive alone the interstate to NOLA and there are thousands of people wandering along the interstate like broken zombies, wandering toward Baton Rouge like they're walking from the site of a nuclear bomb, when you drive by they look to you and BEG, BEG BEG BEG for water, for food, for a diaper, for help...
The lawlessness IS NOT as bad as the national news makes it out to be, but the disaster IS WORSE than it's made out to be. And we haven't gotten the help that's needed. The federal goverment and the president have let us down, they've let a US City down in a time of complete disaster. If this had been a terrorist attack we would have been inendated with help. Why is the federal government letting people die???? The state government is doing everything it can, but we can't do this alone. I hope to god this isn't happening because of indifference, because people stereotype louisiana and look at us as some kind of sub-non-culture. We are people, we are AMERICANS, THIS IS THE UNITED STATES, and we are your brothers and sisters. And we need your help.
p.s.
i know i may have offended some people in this post, but really, don't start fighting back at me. I'm here, you're not. You don't know everything that's going on, and you don't live here. Give us a break.
Violence disrupts evacuation, rescue efforts in New Orleans[/b]
Thursday, September 1, 2005; Posted: 11:17 p.m. EDT (03:17 GMT)
var clickExpire = "-1";[b] NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- Nightfall and rising violence threatened to further disrupt relief efforts Thursday in New Orleans as authorities rescued residents still trapped in the flooded city and evacuated thousands of others living among corpses and human waste.[/b]
The director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, Michael Brown, said his agency was attempting to work [b]"under conditions of urban warfare."[/b]
From the roof of a police station downtown late Thursday, groups of officers armed with rifles could be seen venturing out into the streets, while helicopters buzzed overhead and a shopping mall burned in the distance.
Police warned a CNN crew to stay off the streets because of escalating danger, and cautioned others about [b]attempted shootings and rapes by groups of young men.[/b]
"This is a desperate SOS," New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin said in a statement Thursday afternoon, with thousands of people stranded at the city's convention center with no food, water or electricity -- and fading hope.
Residents expressed growing frustration with the disorder evident on the streets, raising questions about the coordination and timeliness of relief efforts.
Video from the convention center showed a group chanting "we want help, we want help," as mothers tried to console their tired and hungry children.
Government officials insisted they were putting forth their best efforts and pleaded for patience, saying further help was on the way.
One displaced resident at the Louisiana Superdome, however, issued a warning to authorities who may be headed to the stadium, where up to 30,000 people had sought refuge after Monday's hurricane and now await evacuation to Texas by bus.
"Please don't send the National Guard," he said. "Send someone with a bullhorn outside the place that can talk to these people first."
He described scenes of lawlessness and desperation, with people simply dragging corpses into corners.
[b]"They have quite a few people running around here with guns," he said. "You got these young teenage boys running around up here raping these girls."[/b]
Elsewhere, groups of armed men wandered the streets, buildings smoldered and people picked through stores for what they could find.
[b]Charity Hospital, one of several facilities attempting to evacuate patients, was forced to halt the effort after coming under sniper fire. [/b][URL=http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.hospital.sniper/index.html]Full Story[/URL]
Living 'like animals'
The city is "out of resources at the convention center and doesn't anticipate enough buses," the mayor said in his statement.
CNN's Chris Lawrence described "many, many" bodies, inside and outside the facility on New Orleans' Riverwalk.
"There are multiple people dying at the convention center," Lawrence said. "There was an old woman, dead in a wheelchair with a blanket draped over her, pushed up against a wall. Horrible, horrible conditions.
"We saw a man who went into a seizure, literally dying right in front of us."
Nagin said that "the convention center is unsanitary and unsafe and we are running out of supplies for [15,000 to 20,000] people."
He said the city would allow people to march up the Crescent City Connection to the Westbank Expressway in an effort to find help.
People were "being forced to live like animals," Lawrence said, surrounded by piles of trash and feces.
He said thousands of people were just lying on the ground outside the building -- many old, or sick, or caring for infants and small children.
More people were arriving at the center, walking south along Canal Street. The route north to the Superdome is blocked by chest-deep water.
The convention center was used as a secondary shelter when the Louisiana Superdome was overwhelmed.
Food drops began Thursday afternoon at the convention center, as rain also began falling.
A National Guard helicopter delivered MREs -- meals ready to eat -- and bottles of water. The amounts in the first few drops, however, were far short of enough for everyone.
State officials believe Katrina and its aftermath killed "thousands" of people in New Orleans and surrounding parishes, but no official count had been compiled, Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco said Thursday.
Brown said those who ignored the city's mandatory evacuation order bore some responsibility.
"I think the death toll may go into the thousands and, unfortunately, that's going to be attributable a lot to people who did not heed the advance warnings," Michael Brown told CNN.
[/quote]
Sickening. They need to find the guys killing and raping, and just shoot them. Publicly is preferable.
We need to get our military there NOW.
And we need to accept the foreign aid that has been offered.
I will add a couple comments about what I know from experience doing Red Cross and CSAR Disaster training and relief efforts.
Regarding the National Guard and the relief effort:
The National Guard can not be deployed at a moments notice like some might think or hope, it does take some time. In addition calling up citizen soldiers before every potential national disaster occurs is not a viable option. This is especially true where an unpredictable hurricane is involved. Recall how quickly Katrina turned? How much notice did folks really have?
Had troops and supplies been pre-positioned what would have happened if the storm changed direction and had hit Houston? What would have happened if the pre-position locations had been devastated?
Regarding the Louisiana police and fire departments ~ these heroes became victims themselves when the storm hit. With roads, supplies, fuel, water, communications, and other necessities devastated over such a wide area naturally their effectiveness would be greatly diminished. Is anyone honestly so delusional that they expect instant help from any state, local, or federal government?! It starts with friends family and neighborhoods helping each-other.
Regarding the outlaws and criminal activity: This is not a reflection on how ‘civil’ the US population is. It is a reflection on a few. After other Hurricanes, earthquakes, mass power outages, terrorist attacks there have stories of great caring not chaos blown out of proportion. The difference in the tsunami was there were much fewer cameras and reporters to show all the problems.
People are still at great risk. The most important question for now is: What are you doing now to help?
As a social phenomenon, I find this incredibly interesting. While I am not likely to do it, I very much like the idea of just driving down there with a gun and a camera and watching people do horrible things to eachother for a month.
Re: Rescue Operations stopped due to 'Urban Warfare'. Rape & murder rife + police looting
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]More News on the New Orleans situation...
Sickening. They need to find the guys killing and raping, and just shoot them. Publicly is preferable.
We need to get our military there NOW.
And we need to accept the foreign aid that has been offered. [/B][/QUOTE]
It is sickening ~ but only the actions of a few ~ who should be judged fairly ~ but quickly.
Martial law... Hmm, scary... The Navy has some and is moving more amphibious warfare ships and one of the two hospital ships into the area.
We did accept the aid from Russia at a minimum ~ after some idiot at the State Dept said 'we could handle it on our own.' Don't know who that was ~ but they should be fired.
The scary thing is depending on how things go this could get worse fast. Atlanta and Dulles airports might have to limit operations if the oil distribution system is not fixed, and ‘re-powered’ soon. There is already a pinch of the poultry supply (believe it or not) among many other things.
It's not the actions of a few. While the more extreme stuff is not being done by everyone, the entire area [i]is[/i] a mess, and there is a lot of violence and looting. We're talking about a fairly sizable portion of the population.
The area is not under martial law. That's a rumor; it's under state of emergency, which is a different legal state, and many agencies have tried to clarify this, including DHS. Not that there is much of a difference in practice, at the moment and under Louisiana state law.
People are really living in denial about this. No one wants to accept foreign aid because we've spent the last 5 years telling the world it can go fuck itself. Moreover, people are unwilling to do what needs to be done and are completely unwilling to accept the concept of an American refugee.
And how dare you? at this time? This isn't the time to sling insults.
[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry if you took that as an insult, it wasn't at all. I was just pointing out a fact. And don't think I have no idea of what its like to live through similar situations. I live in PR were we are in the very path of the same hurricanes that hit the US. I was actually more pointing out a problem that happens everywhere. A lot of developers keep building in places that are simply downright not safe and the incompetent or corrupt government officials who allow it or do nothing about it.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by LogicSequence [/i]
[B]PLEASE PLEASE write a congressman, TELL PEOPLE THIS. WE NEED THE HELP. i don't care if you live across the globe, please do something. Our government dropped tons of food on asian countries 2 days after the tsunami, and we can't send one ton of food to a major US city in the same situation, AFTER 5 DAYS!? 5 DAYS!?!?[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm just as increadulous as you are about the situation. I just don't know what to think anymore when prolonged depravation such as this can be allowed to occur. Part of me wishes that I was American, just so that I could properly justify the [i]anger[/i] that I'm currently feeling after seeing these people suffer.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by LogicSequence [/i]
[B]We are people, we are AMERICANS, THIS IS THE UNITED STATES, and we are your brothers and sisters. And we need your help. [/B][/QUOTE]
I may not be an American bit I've always considered the people of the United States as close cousins, and I can honestly say that what I have seen on the news has sickened and disturbed me to my very core. The psychological impact of seeing people from the richest most technologocally advanced country in the world in such dire circumstances is [b]shattering.[/b] I'd hate to think that this is naive optimism, but I'm sure that the rest of the population will be galvanized into action because of it.
ShadowDancerWhen I say, "Why aye, gadgie," in my heart I say, "Och aye, laddie."London, UK
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vorlons in my Head [/i]
[B]I'm sorry if you took that as an insult, it wasn't at all. I was just pointing out a fact. And don't think I have no idea of what its like to live through similar situations. I live in PR were we are in the very path of the same hurricanes that hit the US. I was actually more pointing out a problem that happens everywhere. A lot of developers keep building in places that are simply downright not safe and the incompetent or corrupt government officials who allow it or do nothing about it. [/B][/QUOTE]
You have to admit tho, it does seem to be tempting fate rather to build a city partly below sea level anywhere in the world, and not to provide defenses for it because of the cost of building them. lets see...build sea defenses for X amount, or wait till theres been a catastrophe and then build them AND repair the damage done, at a cost of X+ several billion dollars no doubt
On the pragmatic side, people will learn from this, and the individuals who dismissed the need for flood defenses around New Orleans will pay. (To be quite frank, I hope they f*cking swing.)
Well hey in the end I think its for the best. Ya weed out the bad seeds, get those corrupto types out of office come next election & fix up that city so I can go and see titties on main street.
LS, I could give a rats ass about your "rightous anger"
The reality of logistics hell the reality of physics and such precludes massive
response in anything under 72 hours.
The feds arrived in force 96 hours after the 17th street canal levee broke.
Considering the kind of logisitcal effort that alone required considering the loss of almost all the transportation nets into NO, its amazing.
the feds have been rushing all the helos they got into the area, but they dont have the Jet A on hand to run em all, so they are having to bring that in. the helos need maintance, so they are having to bring that in, keeping traffic lanes open with most of the major road nets down is a major chore.
Ive got a unique situation, one of my fathers jobs as major in the MI battlion, 104th infantry division(reserve) Ft. Vancouver included Portland area disaster planning. a 96 hour federal response time is fairly average considering you have to figure out where logistical staging is going to be set up, what modes and routes are avaible for briging in supplies at the same time maintaing evacuation, and what assets are availble.
These undertakings are HUGE, and not easy. your comment that we had food arriving in Asia 2 days after the tsunami is just flat out wrong. It took a week for aid to reach areas that were not that remote in thailand.
The fact of the matter is, no matter where you are, what country you live in, if your urban area is hit by a major wide spread disaster, which messes up transportation links, your gonna be on your own for days.
"Although dubbed the Big Easy, this was no easy city to live in, nor keep possession of. The people of New Orleans have suffered epidemics of yellow fever and cholera, slavery, floods, hurricanes, Civil War, Indian wars, conspiracies, racial riots, revolutions and humidity........."
Yellow Feaver used to be a major killer in all the east coast and gulf coast cities. It was only the massive pesticide spraying and wetlands draining projects during the late 19th and early 20th centuries which eliminated the problem.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Tyvar [/i]
[B]Considering the kind of logisitcal effort that alone required considering the loss of almost all the transportation nets into NO, its amazing.[/B][/QUOTE]
Most of us abroad don't know what to believe, mate. The Federal authorities and the President are saying exactly the same things as you concerning the difficulty or mountinting the aid operation, whereas local authorities and the Mayor of New Orleans himself states that it's been a farce. We have to ask, who's right? :(
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Morden279 [/i]
[B]Most of us abroad don't know what to believe, mate. The Federal authorities and the President are saying exactly the same things as you concerning the difficulty or mountinting the aid operation, whereas local authorities and the Mayor of New Orleans himself states that it's been a farce. We have to ask, who's right? :( [/B][/QUOTE]
The mayor and the governer have their own problems. The pre existing disaster plans state that before the storm hits the hospitals at least should have been evacuated and that was under their jurisdiction.
Alot of whats going on its turf wars and the byzantine politics of the region, and I would again piss of LS by poiting out Louisiana has a very corrupt and not terribly competent political system. The last three insurance commissioners of the state are in jail, that should tell you something, were talking the guys who ran the agency overlooking insurance from 1972 to 2003. With a record like that Id take what the politcos from Louisiana have to say with a grain of salt.
Secondly NO gets pasted by a hurricane once a year or so, and up untill now its been fine. It took a good sized Class 4 in 1969 and weathered through it, so despite all the "warnings" Nobody took it seriously until the hurricane hit and it had a huge ass storm surge with it.
The other thing is the disaster response has been tasked and spread all over the place. New Orleans was doing find monday, battered but fine.
Meanwhile vast sections of Gulfport and Biloxi were GONE, and all the resources were being stretched there. to put it in perspective the area were talking about FEMA being spread over is larger then the island of great britian.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by LogicSequence [/i]
[B] HOW DARE YOU!? How dare you take shots at us during this time? That is the most dispicable horrible act anyone can do. You are as bad as the people raping and shooting people in NOLA.[/B][/QUOTE]
Errr. No.
Im shocked at whats happening over there, and I hope they get aid (and more importantly stability) soon. Its unreal to hear about it on the news..
It is interesting nothing couild get done till the US congress passed the emergency spending. The US congress should have come back from vacation and passed the spending money bill on Tuesday. Congress acts like they have to get back on horse back too vote!!! Congress Stinks!!!! Not that I am for a dictator or anything.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by LogicSequence [/i]
[B]HOW DARE YOU!? How dare you take shots at us during this time? That is the most dispicable horrible act anyone can do. You are as bad as the people raping and shooting people in NOLA. [/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by LogicSequence [/i]
[B]We are people, we are AMERICANS, THIS IS THE UNITED STATES, and we are your brothers and sisters. And we need your help.[/B][/QUOTE]
Well then, what's your opinion of the Fox News reporting by Geraldo Rivera and Shepard Smith shown in a Quicktime movie at the following location? Truth or not?
God bless Mayor Nagin, he told it like it was.......
Someone had to say it....
You want real info about whats going on?
Here is the link for WWL-TV, which as far as I know, is the only New Orleans TV station that is still broadcasting. I have been watching them since Katrina hit. With the exception of the actual storm, they have been continously covering what has been happening there accurately and with NO partisanship.
As for FEMA, I am sick and disgusted in the actions of these unqualified asshats that just because they helped W get reelected, they have this very important job. They have sooooooo dropped the ball on this entire operation.
Its so bad that the Governor of Louisiana hired a QUALIFIED former head of FEMA to handle the state's side of the reconstruction.
Its that bad people.
Like Bill Maher said last night on his show....Its about damn time we got our Press Corp back.
Even Fox News is smacking the shiznit out of the Republicans.
This whole situation's has me pretty pissed, to the point where [url=http://picardpervert.ytmnd.com/]perverted Patrick Stewart[/url] doesn't particularly help.
I mean, the whole thing is one ginormous fuckup. Billions diverted from reenforcing the levees to the war in Iraq, not to mention a good 1/3 of the state's Natl. Guard over there, too. We've got the director of FEMA, who's main area of expertise is horse-breeding, we've got random politicians patting eachother on the backs for a "job well done", we've got [url=http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050830/480/capm10208301856] a person who's supposed to be leading pretending to be a country music star[/url]. The Red Cross is being stopped from operating in the area. And that's the people [i]outside[/i] the city.
I guess its time for me to step in as the official asshole of firstones.com and point out that your assumptions are all fucked up. and no I wont appoligize for swearing.
The hurricane shattered a huge area, not just New Orleans. Getting stuff into the region for the first 48 hours was damn difficult. Hell the 2/3rd of the LA national guard which was IN THE DAMN STATE didnt even get there that quick, there were about what 300 before the storm and it stayed that way for over a day afterwards?
why the fuck was over 10% of the NOPD off the job after the first day?! walked off, quit. What was wrong there? Despite what people may think we dont have transporters, 24 hours is not that long of a wait to move people into an area, considering you gotta orginize em, supply em and figure out where the hell your going to put them?
The accusation that billions have been diverted from the levee programs is half right, the ACoE New Orleans funds are cronicly under funded, pretty much everywhere, and considering all the shit that the ACoE has to do, they prioritize. And the LA government didnt want to do anything for the Levees either. And it wasnt just the war in Iraq, the Clinton administration also ignored the
improvement project.
Infact, here read this god damn document [url]http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26[/url]
Thats the pre existing New Orleans disaster plan.
NO mention how the hell to get people out other then they drive themselves.
basicly the feds had to create all this stuff from scratch. the evacuation plans ARE the responsibility of the local goverment and NO failed that job.
And I hate to tell you, its this plan and the Louisiana state disaster prepardeness plan that are the blueprints for the federal response also.
The problem Im having is that by blaming the feds we are NOT going to solve this damn problem. Whats happening is incompancy all along the line has been reduced to incompantcy and the federal level. Which means next disaster, THE SAME SHIT HAPPENS.
First of all we have NO (actually not quite, the one orginization which does have a power like that is the CDC/ NHO for creating quarientine areas) mechanism for creating a central authority to respond and co-ordinate disasters. Thats partialy on purpose, part of the seperation of powers doctrine. We might need that. Secondly FEMA, is definatly 1. incompetant, 2. drasiticly under manned, FEMA mostly relies on volunteers that it recruits from various sources at the time of the emergancy. Meaning when something bad happens it can take days to round up personel. It looks like FEMA needs a larger permanent staff of actual trained rescue, relief personel, that they have ready to deploy.
Last but not least, of course stuff wasnt rolling into New Orleans because of the security sitation.
Despite what some people may claim, declaring martial law in the US can be very very difficult, various state consitituions have strict rules regarding it, and its been verboten to be done by the US goverment even during war time since 1866. Shoot on sight orders are ILLEGAL- PERIOD. The extent of US martial law is suspending the right of [I]writ of habeus corpus[/I] meaning holding. and the Federal goverment can only do such if the local court system is shut down, which in this case means the Louisiana courts have to be closed, not just New Orleans.
Now you got rescue workers getting shot at, and the situation is unsafe. The last thing you going to do is JUST SEND IN MORE PEOPLE TO DIE. Red Cross volunteers dont join up to be shot at. hell FEMA people arent soldiers, there job isnt being shot at. disaster relief will by nature play second fiddle to the security operation.
And If somebody makes a comparisson to 9/11, your just showing your ignorance. cause the situations with collapse of road nets, and the fact were talking about a devestated area thats something covering over 1000 square miles compared to a city block, makes things vastly, vastly different.
And my final thing is, the Feds showed up mid day friday the second, 4 days after the hurricane, and they showed up with more then 15,000 personel. 24 hours later, NO is secured, and pretty much cleared. Meaning once they got there, they did their job.
Comments
[B]I hope if they rebuild it they do it somewhere higher than sea level.
I'm still wondering why the national guard wasn't ready to go in in advance. [/B][/QUOTE]
The national guard is in Iraq?
Btw, I understand the people stealing food...but not those stealing tv's..
- First a government that is marginally effect, New Orleans has been know in the past for corruption and favoritism amoung city officals. Generally eveything works OK, until the city is overwhelmed, then the government becomes ineffectual.
- Second, the evacuation order provided little means to those who had none, it just assumed that people would get out. This meant that thousands upon thousands were left stranded with no option but to bear the storm out.
- Finally, related to the previous points, New Orleans has long been a place of have and have-nots and race. A vast majority of the poor are black and throughout New Orleans history have been treated as second class citizens. In the 1920s, when the levy's broke due to another storm, blacks were forced at gun point to labor on rebuilding the city. In the end, the richer, predominately white population had the means to leave the city, while the poorer populations had little choice but to stay.
Jake
*claps*
[B]I believe I heard thats exactly what is now being considered. Thats what happens when you build cities in swamplands and other places they don't belong. [/B][/QUOTE] [IMG]http://capitol.visit-washington-dc.com/Capitol-Building-4.jpg[/IMG]
This is a western country. This behaviour is not acceptable.
Where i live, in Baton Rouge, as i said we are lest than 35 min from new orleans, and even less from the total effected area. In Baton Rouge alone (a city of 300,000 - 400,000 in the greater EBR area), at the height of the hurricane over 200,000 people were without power, and that number is still over 50,000. Since the evacuation of new orleans our population has doubled, literally almost overnight. Baton Rouge is currently housing the greatest population of NOLA refugees as we are the closest major city to NOLA. (NOLA is an abbr. for New Orleans)
First i am going to address some of the previous posts in this thread.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Biggles [/i]
[B]I heard that there have even been shootings, including someone shooting a police officer in the head. It's disgusting. [/B][/QUOTE]
A police officer WAS in fact shot by looters several days ago, however he was not shot in the head. He is doing well and is expected to recover, he is resting in a Baton Rouge hospital.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Morden279 [/i]
[B]I honestly can't believe how serious this disaster is. I first thought I was mistaken when I heard the Mayor of New Orleans speculate that the death toll may be in the thousands. [/B][/QUOTE]
You are not mistaken at all. The death toll will be very very high. It is estimated that over 100,000 people remained in their homes (this is not counting the refugees in the superdome) during the hurricane. However you have to take into consideration the awesome reality of the amount of people that were able to leave the city. The greater new orleans area is home to 1.3 million people, not 400,000 or 500,000 as the national news has sometimes reported (that is the number for the city of new orleans ITSELF, not the outlying areas and suburbs). Of that 1.3 million, over 1 million people were evacuated in the 2 days before the storm hit. That is a monumental task and was handled with nearly 100% competence and management, there were little to no problems with the evacuation.
But as i said, the death toll will be very high. 80% of the homes in NOLA were at some point under water. However, in some of the outer suburbs, such as meterie and kenner, the water has receeded and the streets are bone dry again. Many of the people that remained in their homes were inendated with 8-12 feet of water in a matter of 2 or 3 minutes. It is inconceivable that a large number did not die in this time alone.
However many thousands made it to their attics, where they sought shelter from the rising waters. Those that were able, found ways to cut or punch through their attics to get onto their roofs. It is also most likely that many more died entombed in their attics as they were unable to break through to their roofs. The good news is that TENS OF THOUSANDS have been rescued from their roofs, not several thousand as many national services have reported. Helicopters and boats have been working non stop since the storm to rescue people, and the actual number of people rescued is again MUCH MUCH higher than some national services have reported.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by croxis [/i]
[B]Brother said hotels that haven't been damaged and those in surrounding areas have trippled their prices. [/B][/QUOTE]
(hey david, we're all ok here BTW)
Actually that's somewhat exaggerated. There are new laws in place in Louisiana that provide VERY VERY harsh penalties for anyone price gauging. Anyone convicted faces a minimum sentance of 5 years in prison. So thank god, that activity has been kept to a minimum. Not to say that it isn't happening at all though.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PSI-KILLER [/i]
[B]It is not like there was no warning, If the U.S. President goes on TV and says get out of the storms way and keep your family safe, I would be hail tailing it out of there. Boarderline cat4/5 hurricane you won't have to tell me twice.
I was in New Orleans back in 2000, It is shame with all those historical buildings, but historically the city was under water before and it always came back. the dikes were built in the 1920's and I am sure when they built it it wasn't for 80 years. [/B][/QUOTE]
Actually the president did not address the nation until AFTER the storm hit. You also have to remember that NOLA is told to evacuate for hurricanes, on average, 4 times a year for the past several years. And EVERY time prior, there has been little to no damage, and the trip was for no reason. Of course, this was a different situation, but u can see why many people stayed, they beleived it would be just like all the others, a waste of time. But they were wrong.
The LEVEES in NOLA are not 80 years old, and they were not built in 1920. True, there are some historic sites that have levees from that time, but they have not been active for many years. Nearly all of the levees in NOLA were rebuilt after hurricane camile in 1969, some of which were just completed as little as 3 years ago. However, hurricane camile was a cat3 storm, and the new levees were built to withstand that kind of damage, katrina was, of course, far worse.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by whitestar90 [/i]
[B]Tis bloody sad:( I dont know why people stayed there and if they had no means of getting out then surely the government could have tried to evac them no matter how hard it would have been.:( [/B][/QUOTE]
They did. Almost 100,000 people unable to evacuate themselves were evacuated by public transportation. The majority of people that stayed, stayed of their own free will, however misguided :(. The vast majority of people in the superdome, however, were what was left of those unable to evacuate themselves. During the hurricane there were over 30,000 refugees in the superdome (not the 9,000 or 10,000 that some early national services reported). Those people are being evacuated to Texas at this time. I haven't seen the latest figures, but i know the number had dropped to 0 there as of last night, but more are showing up from the city, and they are being bused out continuously, at about 12,000 per day. Keep in mind, it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to access NOLA by ground, there is now ONLY ONE WAY into or out of the city by ground, I-10 East. All smaller back roads are flooded, and the I-10 West bridge was destroyed.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Biggles [/i]
[B]As well as people shooting at each other and police officers, they're also now shooting at the people who have come to help, including those trying to get all those people in the dome out and military helicopters trying to survey damage and rescue survivors. [/B][/QUOTE]
That is true, there are a VERY SMALL minority of people that are doing things like this.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by croxis [/i]
[B]Evacuation at a hospital is being prevent because of a sniper [/B][/QUOTE]
This is also correct, however that situation was resolved a while back and evacuations are now continuing.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Tyvar [/i]
[B]Frankly Im not suprised by all these Hijinks. Louisiana is the most corrupt state in the union, its goverment is throughly corrupt, and the feds have a hell of a time keeping it down. This corruption translates into incompetancy on behalf of the City and State governments, who ultimatly call the shots even during times like this.
Frankly the Feds need to walk in say "our house" and take control of the whole place. [/B][/QUOTE]
HOW DARE YOU!? How dare you take shots at us during this time? That is the most dispicable horrible act anyone can do. You are as bad as the people raping and shooting people in NOLA. Don't you dare think you have any right to start spouting sh*t about Louisiana when you don't live here and you haven't the vaguest idea how this state operates or what goes on here. You are stereotyping Louisiana, you are stereotyping the people of Louisiana, and you are showing complete and utter ignorance.
The state of Louisiana is doing every single thing in it's power to help these people, but you know what the problem is? WE DON'T HAVE ANY FEDERAL AID! Thats right, it's not the state dragging it's feet, it's FEMA! There has been NO FEMA aid, NO federal aid WHATSOEVER. They all say it's coming, but where is it!? It's not here. No one's seen it. The governour has asked for it, PLEADED for it. But it's not here.
The situation in NOLA is getting worse by the hour people! it's not getting better. thousands are dieing every day. WHERE'S THE AID? WHERE'S FEMA? All these reports you hear, there's umpteen thousand troops here, theres all this aid. I'm here to tell you THAT IS NOT TRUE. They are NOT here. FEMA is not here. They may literally be sitting here in baton rouge, but they aren't doing ANYTHING immeadiate to help. Those breaks in the levees that the army corps of engineers has supposedly fixed or started to fix? IT DIDN'T HAPPEN, it's not fixed, and it hasn't changed in days. The people in NOLA have been without food and water for 5 days! 5 Days people! NO AID. If you are reading this PLEASE DO SOMETHING. Write emails to your congressman demanding they do something, write a check to the red cross, if you can get here to help, do it. This is a desperate situation, and it's not getting better, it's getting worse. If you can do ANYTHING, do it. This city, this area, produces 25% of this nation's oil, and the feds can't do a thing to help RIGHT NOW!? COME ON!
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vorlons in my Head [/i]
[B]I believe I heard thats exactly what is now being considered. Thats what happens when you build cities in swamplands and other places they don't belong. [/B][/QUOTE]
And how dare you? at this time? This isn't the time to sling insults.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by shadow boxer [/i]
[B]Just remember people, over 100,000 people died in the Asian Tsunami. The hardship, death and destruction was and still is, vastly larger than New Orleans. The hardship will be short lived and in some way repaired within the USA. The countries smashed up by the Tsunami will spend many many years recovering. Granted, New Orleans is a mess, yes there are scums of many shades in the flooded streets, but its a long way from the scale of that suffered elsewhere.
[B][/QUOTE]
NO that's where your wrong. It's 10 times worse than you've heard. Boats are literaly pushing through floating bodies. Bodies are everywhere. It IS as bad as the tsunami. It's OUR tsunami. Don't for one minute think this is any less dire... We have state senators commondering buses to drive to NOLA THEMSELVES to get people. FEMA just came on the local news saying they didn't know of bad situations at the NOLA convention center, or what's developed at the superdome. WHAT THE HELL IS THAT!? IT'S ALL OVER THE NEWS. WHAT ARE YOU DOING FEMA!? Why are state senators having to drive in buses themselves to get people! why isn't the federal government going in with hundreds of buses and getting our people out!??! We were told last FRIDAY that aid was already here, already on the way... IT IS NOT HERE. Take it from me, I AM HERE. THE FEDERAL AID IS NOT.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Morden279 [/i]
[B]If what Fark said is even partly correct, Sod the National Guard, the authorities should send in the Marines with bloody armoured support. [/B][/QUOTE]
PLEASE PLEASE write a congressman, TELL PEOPLE THIS. WE NEED THE HELP. i don't care if you live across the globe, please do something. Our government dropped tons of food on asian countries 2 days after the tsunami, and we can't send one ton of food to a major US city in the same situation, AFTER 5 DAYS!? 5 DAYS!?!?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Freejack [/i]
[B]
- Second, the evacuation order provided little means to those who had none, it just assumed that people would get out. This meant that thousands upon thousands were left stranded with no option but to bear the storm out.[/B][/QUOTE]
As i said before, this is not true.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Cabl3 Guy [/i]
[B]Well it sure ain't the fuckin sunshine state!
*claps* [/B][/QUOTE]
i don't even know what to say to that kind of nonsense.
I don't know what else to say... I mean you drive alone the interstate to NOLA and there are thousands of people wandering along the interstate like broken zombies, wandering toward Baton Rouge like they're walking from the site of a nuclear bomb, when you drive by they look to you and BEG, BEG BEG BEG for water, for food, for a diaper, for help...
The lawlessness IS NOT as bad as the national news makes it out to be, but the disaster IS WORSE than it's made out to be. And we haven't gotten the help that's needed. The federal goverment and the president have let us down, they've let a US City down in a time of complete disaster. If this had been a terrorist attack we would have been inendated with help. Why is the federal government letting people die???? The state government is doing everything it can, but we can't do this alone. I hope to god this isn't happening because of indifference, because people stereotype louisiana and look at us as some kind of sub-non-culture. We are people, we are AMERICANS, THIS IS THE UNITED STATES, and we are your brothers and sisters. And we need your help.
p.s.
i know i may have offended some people in this post, but really, don't start fighting back at me. I'm here, you're not. You don't know everything that's going on, and you don't live here. Give us a break.
More News on the New Orleans situation...
Here is just some of it :(
[url]http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.impact/index.html#fema[/url]
[quote]
[b]Relief workers confront 'urban warfare'
Violence disrupts evacuation, rescue efforts in New Orleans[/b]
Thursday, September 1, 2005; Posted: 11:17 p.m. EDT (03:17 GMT)
var clickExpire = "-1";[b] NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- Nightfall and rising violence threatened to further disrupt relief efforts Thursday in New Orleans as authorities rescued residents still trapped in the flooded city and evacuated thousands of others living among corpses and human waste.[/b]
The director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, Michael Brown, said his agency was attempting to work [b]"under conditions of urban warfare."[/b]
From the roof of a police station downtown late Thursday, groups of officers armed with rifles could be seen venturing out into the streets, while helicopters buzzed overhead and a shopping mall burned in the distance.
Police warned a CNN crew to stay off the streets because of escalating danger, and cautioned others about [b]attempted shootings and rapes by groups of young men.[/b]
"This is a desperate SOS," New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin said in a statement Thursday afternoon, with thousands of people stranded at the city's convention center with no food, water or electricity -- and fading hope.
Residents expressed growing frustration with the disorder evident on the streets, raising questions about the coordination and timeliness of relief efforts.
Video from the convention center showed a group chanting "we want help, we want help," as mothers tried to console their tired and hungry children.
Government officials insisted they were putting forth their best efforts and pleaded for patience, saying further help was on the way.
One displaced resident at the Louisiana Superdome, however, issued a warning to authorities who may be headed to the stadium, where up to 30,000 people had sought refuge after Monday's hurricane and now await evacuation to Texas by bus.
"Please don't send the National Guard," he said. "Send someone with a bullhorn outside the place that can talk to these people first."
He described scenes of lawlessness and desperation, with people simply dragging corpses into corners.
[b]"They have quite a few people running around here with guns," he said. "You got these young teenage boys running around up here raping these girls."[/b]
Elsewhere, groups of armed men wandered the streets, buildings smoldered and people picked through stores for what they could find.
[b]Charity Hospital, one of several facilities attempting to evacuate patients, was forced to halt the effort after coming under sniper fire. [/b][URL=http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.hospital.sniper/index.html]Full Story[/URL]
Living 'like animals'
The city is "out of resources at the convention center and doesn't anticipate enough buses," the mayor said in his statement.
CNN's Chris Lawrence described "many, many" bodies, inside and outside the facility on New Orleans' Riverwalk.
"There are multiple people dying at the convention center," Lawrence said. "There was an old woman, dead in a wheelchair with a blanket draped over her, pushed up against a wall. Horrible, horrible conditions.
"We saw a man who went into a seizure, literally dying right in front of us."
Nagin said that "the convention center is unsanitary and unsafe and we are running out of supplies for [15,000 to 20,000] people."
He said the city would allow people to march up the Crescent City Connection to the Westbank Expressway in an effort to find help.
People were "being forced to live like animals," Lawrence said, surrounded by piles of trash and feces.
He said thousands of people were just lying on the ground outside the building -- many old, or sick, or caring for infants and small children.
More people were arriving at the center, walking south along Canal Street. The route north to the Superdome is blocked by chest-deep water.
The convention center was used as a secondary shelter when the Louisiana Superdome was overwhelmed.
Food drops began Thursday afternoon at the convention center, as rain also began falling.
A National Guard helicopter delivered MREs -- meals ready to eat -- and bottles of water. The amounts in the first few drops, however, were far short of enough for everyone.
State officials believe Katrina and its aftermath killed "thousands" of people in New Orleans and surrounding parishes, but no official count had been compiled, Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco said Thursday.
Brown said those who ignored the city's mandatory evacuation order bore some responsibility.
"I think the death toll may go into the thousands and, unfortunately, that's going to be attributable a lot to people who did not heed the advance warnings," Michael Brown told CNN.
[/quote]
Sickening. They need to find the guys killing and raping, and just shoot them. Publicly is preferable.
We need to get our military there NOW.
And we need to accept the foreign aid that has been offered.
I will add a couple comments about what I know from experience doing Red Cross and CSAR Disaster training and relief efforts.
Regarding the National Guard and the relief effort:
The National Guard can not be deployed at a moments notice like some might think or hope, it does take some time. In addition calling up citizen soldiers before every potential national disaster occurs is not a viable option. This is especially true where an unpredictable hurricane is involved. Recall how quickly Katrina turned? How much notice did folks really have?
Had troops and supplies been pre-positioned what would have happened if the storm changed direction and had hit Houston? What would have happened if the pre-position locations had been devastated?
Regarding the Louisiana police and fire departments ~ these heroes became victims themselves when the storm hit. With roads, supplies, fuel, water, communications, and other necessities devastated over such a wide area naturally their effectiveness would be greatly diminished. Is anyone honestly so delusional that they expect instant help from any state, local, or federal government?! It starts with friends family and neighborhoods helping each-other.
Regarding the outlaws and criminal activity: This is not a reflection on how ‘civil’ the US population is. It is a reflection on a few. After other Hurricanes, earthquakes, mass power outages, terrorist attacks there have stories of great caring not chaos blown out of proportion. The difference in the tsunami was there were much fewer cameras and reporters to show all the problems.
People are still at great risk. The most important question for now is: What are you doing now to help?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]More News on the New Orleans situation...
Sickening. They need to find the guys killing and raping, and just shoot them. Publicly is preferable.
We need to get our military there NOW.
And we need to accept the foreign aid that has been offered. [/B][/QUOTE]
It is sickening ~ but only the actions of a few ~ who should be judged fairly ~ but quickly.
Martial law... Hmm, scary... The Navy has some and is moving more amphibious warfare ships and one of the two hospital ships into the area.
We did accept the aid from Russia at a minimum ~ after some idiot at the State Dept said 'we could handle it on our own.' Don't know who that was ~ but they should be fired.
The scary thing is depending on how things go this could get worse fast. Atlanta and Dulles airports might have to limit operations if the oil distribution system is not fixed, and ‘re-powered’ soon. There is already a pinch of the poultry supply (believe it or not) among many other things.
The area is not under martial law. That's a rumor; it's under state of emergency, which is a different legal state, and many agencies have tried to clarify this, including DHS. Not that there is much of a difference in practice, at the moment and under Louisiana state law.
People are really living in denial about this. No one wants to accept foreign aid because we've spent the last 5 years telling the world it can go fuck itself. Moreover, people are unwilling to do what needs to be done and are completely unwilling to accept the concept of an American refugee.
And how dare you? at this time? This isn't the time to sling insults.
[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry if you took that as an insult, it wasn't at all. I was just pointing out a fact. And don't think I have no idea of what its like to live through similar situations. I live in PR were we are in the very path of the same hurricanes that hit the US. I was actually more pointing out a problem that happens everywhere. A lot of developers keep building in places that are simply downright not safe and the incompetent or corrupt government officials who allow it or do nothing about it.
[B]PLEASE PLEASE write a congressman, TELL PEOPLE THIS. WE NEED THE HELP. i don't care if you live across the globe, please do something. Our government dropped tons of food on asian countries 2 days after the tsunami, and we can't send one ton of food to a major US city in the same situation, AFTER 5 DAYS!? 5 DAYS!?!?[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm just as increadulous as you are about the situation. I just don't know what to think anymore when prolonged depravation such as this can be allowed to occur. Part of me wishes that I was American, just so that I could properly justify the [i]anger[/i] that I'm currently feeling after seeing these people suffer.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by LogicSequence [/i]
[B]We are people, we are AMERICANS, THIS IS THE UNITED STATES, and we are your brothers and sisters. And we need your help. [/B][/QUOTE]
I may not be an American bit I've always considered the people of the United States as close cousins, and I can honestly say that what I have seen on the news has sickened and disturbed me to my very core. The psychological impact of seeing people from the richest most technologocally advanced country in the world in such dire circumstances is [b]shattering.[/b] I'd hate to think that this is naive optimism, but I'm sure that the rest of the population will be galvanized into action because of it.
[B]I'm sorry if you took that as an insult, it wasn't at all. I was just pointing out a fact. And don't think I have no idea of what its like to live through similar situations. I live in PR were we are in the very path of the same hurricanes that hit the US. I was actually more pointing out a problem that happens everywhere. A lot of developers keep building in places that are simply downright not safe and the incompetent or corrupt government officials who allow it or do nothing about it. [/B][/QUOTE]
You have to admit tho, it does seem to be tempting fate rather to build a city partly below sea level anywhere in the world, and not to provide defenses for it because of the cost of building them. lets see...build sea defenses for X amount, or wait till theres been a catastrophe and then build them AND repair the damage done, at a cost of X+ several billion dollars no doubt
*claps*
The reality of logistics hell the reality of physics and such precludes massive
response in anything under 72 hours.
The feds arrived in force 96 hours after the 17th street canal levee broke.
Considering the kind of logisitcal effort that alone required considering the loss of almost all the transportation nets into NO, its amazing.
the feds have been rushing all the helos they got into the area, but they dont have the Jet A on hand to run em all, so they are having to bring that in. the helos need maintance, so they are having to bring that in, keeping traffic lanes open with most of the major road nets down is a major chore.
Ive got a unique situation, one of my fathers jobs as major in the MI battlion, 104th infantry division(reserve) Ft. Vancouver included Portland area disaster planning. a 96 hour federal response time is fairly average considering you have to figure out where logistical staging is going to be set up, what modes and routes are avaible for briging in supplies at the same time maintaing evacuation, and what assets are availble.
These undertakings are HUGE, and not easy. your comment that we had food arriving in Asia 2 days after the tsunami is just flat out wrong. It took a week for aid to reach areas that were not that remote in thailand.
The fact of the matter is, no matter where you are, what country you live in, if your urban area is hit by a major wide spread disaster, which messes up transportation links, your gonna be on your own for days.
Big Easy has been through allot more then just this and never went away..
[url]http://www.ego.com/us/la/neworleans/history/default.asp[/url]
"Although dubbed the Big Easy, this was no easy city to live in, nor keep possession of. The people of New Orleans have suffered epidemics of yellow fever and cholera, slavery, floods, hurricanes, Civil War, Indian wars, conspiracies, racial riots, revolutions and humidity........."
And its comming back :(
[B]Considering the kind of logisitcal effort that alone required considering the loss of almost all the transportation nets into NO, its amazing.[/B][/QUOTE]
Most of us abroad don't know what to believe, mate. The Federal authorities and the President are saying exactly the same things as you concerning the difficulty or mountinting the aid operation, whereas local authorities and the Mayor of New Orleans himself states that it's been a farce. We have to ask, who's right? :(
[B]Most of us abroad don't know what to believe, mate. The Federal authorities and the President are saying exactly the same things as you concerning the difficulty or mountinting the aid operation, whereas local authorities and the Mayor of New Orleans himself states that it's been a farce. We have to ask, who's right? :( [/B][/QUOTE]
The mayor and the governer have their own problems. The pre existing disaster plans state that before the storm hits the hospitals at least should have been evacuated and that was under their jurisdiction.
Alot of whats going on its turf wars and the byzantine politics of the region, and I would again piss of LS by poiting out Louisiana has a very corrupt and not terribly competent political system. The last three insurance commissioners of the state are in jail, that should tell you something, were talking the guys who ran the agency overlooking insurance from 1972 to 2003. With a record like that Id take what the politcos from Louisiana have to say with a grain of salt.
Secondly NO gets pasted by a hurricane once a year or so, and up untill now its been fine. It took a good sized Class 4 in 1969 and weathered through it, so despite all the "warnings" Nobody took it seriously until the hurricane hit and it had a huge ass storm surge with it.
The other thing is the disaster response has been tasked and spread all over the place. New Orleans was doing find monday, battered but fine.
Meanwhile vast sections of Gulfport and Biloxi were GONE, and all the resources were being stretched there. to put it in perspective the area were talking about FEMA being spread over is larger then the island of great britian.
[B] HOW DARE YOU!? How dare you take shots at us during this time? That is the most dispicable horrible act anyone can do. You are as bad as the people raping and shooting people in NOLA.[/B][/QUOTE]
Errr. No.
Im shocked at whats happening over there, and I hope they get aid (and more importantly stability) soon. Its unreal to hear about it on the news..
[B]HOW DARE YOU!? How dare you take shots at us during this time? That is the most dispicable horrible act anyone can do. You are as bad as the people raping and shooting people in NOLA. [/B][/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://cerberus.imap.cc/barry2.jpg[/IMG]
[B]We are people, we are AMERICANS, THIS IS THE UNITED STATES, and we are your brothers and sisters. And we need your help.[/B][/QUOTE]
Well then, what's your opinion of the Fox News reporting by Geraldo Rivera and Shepard Smith shown in a Quicktime movie at the following location? Truth or not?
[url]http://homepage.mac.com/mkoldys/iblog/C168863457/E20050902214254/[/url]
There's also the New Orleans mayor's radio interview recently. A transcript is here:
[url]http://story.taiwansun.com/p.x/ct/9/id/d721fd19afc8e3f0/cid/b8de8e630faf3631[/url]
Someone had to say it....
You want real info about whats going on?
Here is the link for WWL-TV, which as far as I know, is the only New Orleans TV station that is still broadcasting. I have been watching them since Katrina hit. With the exception of the actual storm, they have been continously covering what has been happening there accurately and with NO partisanship.
[url]http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.dll?id=1377931&segment=152389[/url]
As for FEMA, I am sick and disgusted in the actions of these unqualified asshats that just because they helped W get reelected, they have this very important job. They have sooooooo dropped the ball on this entire operation.
Its so bad that the Governor of Louisiana hired a QUALIFIED former head of FEMA to handle the state's side of the reconstruction.
Its that bad people.
Like Bill Maher said last night on his show....Its about damn time we got our Press Corp back.
Even Fox News is smacking the shiznit out of the Republicans.
BTW I voted for Kerry and Gore before that.
*poof*
back to lurker mode
I mean, the whole thing is one ginormous fuckup. Billions diverted from reenforcing the levees to the war in Iraq, not to mention a good 1/3 of the state's Natl. Guard over there, too. We've got the director of FEMA, who's main area of expertise is horse-breeding, we've got random politicians patting eachother on the backs for a "job well done", we've got [url=http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050830/480/capm10208301856] a person who's supposed to be leading pretending to be a country music star[/url]. The Red Cross is being stopped from operating in the area. And that's the people [i]outside[/i] the city.
Christ, I need a drink.
[B]
When civility is gone, all thats left is brutal survivalist and nihilist.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Good to know I will be around when what you call civilty is gone.
The hurricane shattered a huge area, not just New Orleans. Getting stuff into the region for the first 48 hours was damn difficult. Hell the 2/3rd of the LA national guard which was IN THE DAMN STATE didnt even get there that quick, there were about what 300 before the storm and it stayed that way for over a day afterwards?
why the fuck was over 10% of the NOPD off the job after the first day?! walked off, quit. What was wrong there? Despite what people may think we dont have transporters, 24 hours is not that long of a wait to move people into an area, considering you gotta orginize em, supply em and figure out where the hell your going to put them?
The accusation that billions have been diverted from the levee programs is half right, the ACoE New Orleans funds are cronicly under funded, pretty much everywhere, and considering all the shit that the ACoE has to do, they prioritize. And the LA government didnt want to do anything for the Levees either. And it wasnt just the war in Iraq, the Clinton administration also ignored the
improvement project.
Infact, here read this god damn document [url]http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26[/url]
Thats the pre existing New Orleans disaster plan.
NO mention how the hell to get people out other then they drive themselves.
basicly the feds had to create all this stuff from scratch. the evacuation plans ARE the responsibility of the local goverment and NO failed that job.
And I hate to tell you, its this plan and the Louisiana state disaster prepardeness plan that are the blueprints for the federal response also.
The problem Im having is that by blaming the feds we are NOT going to solve this damn problem. Whats happening is incompancy all along the line has been reduced to incompantcy and the federal level. Which means next disaster, THE SAME SHIT HAPPENS.
First of all we have NO (actually not quite, the one orginization which does have a power like that is the CDC/ NHO for creating quarientine areas) mechanism for creating a central authority to respond and co-ordinate disasters. Thats partialy on purpose, part of the seperation of powers doctrine. We might need that. Secondly FEMA, is definatly 1. incompetant, 2. drasiticly under manned, FEMA mostly relies on volunteers that it recruits from various sources at the time of the emergancy. Meaning when something bad happens it can take days to round up personel. It looks like FEMA needs a larger permanent staff of actual trained rescue, relief personel, that they have ready to deploy.
Last but not least, of course stuff wasnt rolling into New Orleans because of the security sitation.
Despite what some people may claim, declaring martial law in the US can be very very difficult, various state consitituions have strict rules regarding it, and its been verboten to be done by the US goverment even during war time since 1866. Shoot on sight orders are ILLEGAL- PERIOD. The extent of US martial law is suspending the right of [I]writ of habeus corpus[/I] meaning holding. and the Federal goverment can only do such if the local court system is shut down, which in this case means the Louisiana courts have to be closed, not just New Orleans.
Now you got rescue workers getting shot at, and the situation is unsafe. The last thing you going to do is JUST SEND IN MORE PEOPLE TO DIE. Red Cross volunteers dont join up to be shot at. hell FEMA people arent soldiers, there job isnt being shot at. disaster relief will by nature play second fiddle to the security operation.
And If somebody makes a comparisson to 9/11, your just showing your ignorance. cause the situations with collapse of road nets, and the fact were talking about a devestated area thats something covering over 1000 square miles compared to a city block, makes things vastly, vastly different.
And my final thing is, the Feds showed up mid day friday the second, 4 days after the hurricane, and they showed up with more then 15,000 personel. 24 hours later, NO is secured, and pretty much cleared. Meaning once they got there, they did their job.