I wanted to weigh in on this discussion earlier, but the internet went down at work...
One thing that has been mentioned is genetic manipulation, changing sex, eye color, build etc. Generally this is frowned upon as bad, an interuption to human evolution.
Here is how I look at it. Human evolution was seriously interupted with the advent of medicines and uniform medical care for all people (I no it not [b]all[/b] people but that another debate). No longer do we have survival of the fittest. We tend to the weak and sickly, where as in the wild those genetic traits would die off. I argue that genetic manipulation can restore some of the genetic "health" that has been lost.
What do you think?
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[b]Freejack: The Theoretical Subatomic Particle[/b]
[i]The structure of anger is repetition[/i]
Unknown Artist
[This message has been edited by Freejack (edited 08-08-2001).]
We were talking about Gattaca in Chemistry last year, I have never seen it. Is it good?
Freejack: I agree. I used the same argument in an evolution debate/fight. Every human can usually live to reproduce. I'm personally not against genetic engineering, but we MUST be very carefull and know EXACTLY what we are doing and what will happen when we do it. Geneticaly modified are currently dangerous, becaus ewe don't know how they will affect us or the enviroment.
[quote]Originally posted by silencergroup:
[b]So the next time you hear that they "cloned" a sheep, tell them the truth. [/b][/quote]
Wow, for one who is telling us to set others streight, you show ignroance on this topic. First off, injecting DNA into an embryo only works in 1 and 10 cases, and this was NOT how it was done.
[quote]Originally posted by silencergroup:
[b]The ferilized ovum would have became a sheep anyway, what they did is alter it genetically to become similar to the original... Dolly IS NOT genetically identical to the original [/b][/quote]
PPL Therapeutics funded some guy named Ian Wilmut, who transferred the nuclei from a sheep cell and then placed it into an unfertilized sheep egg. (Thanks to microsurgery) these eggs lacked their nuclei. Once this was done, the egg’s chromosome was identical to the Doners chromosome cell, and therefore Dolly is genetically identical to the original.
Addressing your hypothetical, "ferilized [fertilized?] ovum would have became a sheep anyway[.]" for that specific ovum to be fertilized naturally the odds are against it, and since the ovum’s fertilization was the last step in the procedure (rephrase: the procedure was done) of course it became a sheep.
Go back to impeding scientific advancement by protesting stem cell research, or screaming, “Your going to hell” at women who already feel guilty for doing this abortion.
God speed,
The Atheist
[This message has been edited by LordBonJr (edited 08-08-2001).]
Not all science is good, not all scientific advancement should be persued.
We've already suffered from science building us better weapons, From science developing better diseases to kill humanity, from science creating better methods for raping our planet.
Just because some people are cautious when it comes to such new and radical scientific procedures doesn't make them some religious extremists. I think the opposite is true, those pushing for the cloning of humans at this point in time are DANGEROUS individuals, they are the extremists, they are the radicals. They care nothing for their fellow man and only wish to advance their own cause.
The extremely high rate of defects with current animal clones should be all the reason enough not to go forward with human cloning.
We can easily shrug off destroying hundreds of rat clones for defects, how can you possible justify killing human children who suffer from defects during their development. And mind you, not all defects occur during a time when they can be aborted in the womb.
If we can't kill these genetic abominations, are we then supposed to release them into the general gene pool?
Persuing human cloning right now is nothing short of a mad scientist in his lab, doing exactly as that old story foretold, and creating a Frankenstein.
[quote]Originally posted by rhett:
[b]For crying out loud, don't flame him! He was just stating what he knows.[/b][/quote]
Apologies, its my writing style, I wasn’t flaming him. The last bit was a bit over the top, it was quickly written and wasn’t even ware it was there. Sorry
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Thanks, LordBonJr.
Try and keep calm people. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
------------------
[b]Required reading: [url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[quote]Originally posted by Biggles:
[b]
Try and keep calm people. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]
lol, who that to, Mr Biggles? Cuz as much as I hate to tell you, I'm pre dosposed to being hyper, and when I hyperfocus people think I'm enraged [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
[quote]Santiago[b]
Not all science is good, not all scientific advancement should be persued...If we can't kill these genetic abominations, are we then supposed to release them into the general gene pool?
[/b][/quote]
Santiago, I'm a genetic defect, I have AD/HD, and depressed, am gifted and learning disabled, at age 7 I understood international affairs, read New York Times and Washington post on a regular basics, yet when they tested my reading skills I was placed in resource reading. I’m prone to violent outbursts, allowing some to believe I am borderline, when in fact these “violent outbursts” are just impassioned responses.
These "genetic abominations" you speak, please describe. Some of the most inspirational people I have ever met were kids with Down’s syndrome. One of parents friends has dyskinetic cerebral palsy, yet he has a Ph.D, married a non-disabled wife who’s family has cut off contact for marrying a "freak". This man has gone on and had 2 children; both are in college and have no defects.
Even in the early 80’s ADD was thought of as brain damage, and even today cerebral palsy is thought of as genetic, both are untrue, but I digress.
Allowing clones into our world is both safe, and ethically. If they are "genetic abominations" then natural selection will weed them out but if the defect is major and can be detected in the womb abortion is how it is handled.
LordBon, I salute you!
I remember in my biology textbook reading the genetics chaper. They were talking about how people with Down Syndrom can still be "productive members in society." For some odd reason that gave me the chills. It seemed so, inhuman. Did you know if it wasn't for genetic engineering people with diabetes would be in far worse shape. Most insulin is produced with geneticly modified bacteria. (For some reason I'm not sure this is true, but this is what I have heard.) We MUST be carful with what we do.
The evil bad guy put defects into his clones so when they out lived their usefullness to him they died.
Spoiler alert. OFF
I don't doubt that if cloning ever becomes a business [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/eek.gif[/img] this will happen. Look how they screwed up HMOs here in the USA. Profit before life, business as usual. Now that scares me. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/frown.gif[/img]
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/confused.gif[/img]
PS Could someone tell me how to turn the spoiler text invisable (ie the background blue)So people who do not want to see the spoiler text dont have to. Those who do want to read it just hightlight it with their mouse.Arik showed me one but I forget. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/redface.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by In Between (edited 08-09-2001).]
I'm looking into a spoiled ub code bit [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] type [sp] and it turns ton a black text box with black text. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] I'm going to look into it further.
Otherwise, it's just blue text.
[This message has been edited by Sanfam (edited 08-09-2001).]
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Sounds like a good idea.
------------------
[b]Required reading: [url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
------------------
[i]"...In the end it would hold because what is built endures. And what is loved endures.
And Babylon 5...Babylon 5 endures."[/i] -- Delenn in the Babylon 5 episode [i]Rising Star[/i]
[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 08-09-2001).]
LordBon: Hope u overcome ur difficulties. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
I thought 6th Day was pretty good, despite pple cringing at the thought of Arnie trying to act. It was well written, and well thought out. There was a lot of stuff that got me thinking about cloning and related issues. I recommend pple to watch the film if they want to think about cloning.
------------------
[b]Commander[/b] socrates
flightleader, [i]Erinyes[/i]
The Gray Hand of Fate
AnlaShok Blackops
Nowhere did I even remotely hint at these abominations as those being natural.
No, I'm talking, and I think I was quite clear, that these abominations will be the result of the cloning. They will be artificial, they will be the result of scientists screwing with human beings. Putting them through procedures they KNOW result in huge numbers of defects. Defects I can't imagine, nor can they, nor can you.
All we know is that by persuing cloning now, WILL result in large numbers of these kids and later adults having these unknown and artificial defects.
How can you promote procedures that you know WILL hurt people? Do you go to a pregnant woman and tell her to smoke crack? Tell her to smoke cigarettes? Tell her to drink liquor?
How can we allow scientists to create children who WILL have these unknown problems........
It's nothing short of cruelty. We are trying to help people, allow kids to be born without problems, not sentence others to problems for selfish gains.
"Some of the most inspirational people I have ever met were kids with Down’s syndrome."
And can you call yourself humane, or ethical if you create a child and MAKE him have down syndrome?
And like I said, not all problems are detectible in cloans in the womb. So you can't abort all cases of severe mutation or defects.
But I guess that doesn't matter, who gives a damn how many people get sick and are made sick as long as some scientist gets his name in the paper and history books. I think whoever persues this deserves a spot in the history books, right beside Mengela.
No problem. Just sounded that way to me, but I misunderstood. My apologies. Back to the subject. It makes me sad when I think about all the great people out there with genetic "defects" and are attacked because of it. Such as LordBonJr's freind whose wife has been ostracised (sp sorry, I mean cut off) from the rest of her family. How ignorant and predjudiced (against people who are different).
[quote]Originally posted by Santiago:
[b]
No, I'm talking, and I think I was quite clear, that these abominations will be the result of the cloning. They will be artificial, they will be the result of scientists screwing with human beings. Putting them through procedures they KNOW result in huge numbers of defects. Defects I can't imagine, nor can they, nor can you.
[/b][/quote]
Hmmm... if you think that we will be able to tell who is a clone and who isn't, well just look at our government and privacy. If I'm right, how will you know if its down syndrome, or is it a side effect from cloning?
No, I think we should allow it, see what happens. If people want to let them, its like those people who are critical or Prozac (not saying you are) on the basis that some who take it commit suicide.
Now if cloning is turns out to be disastrous, then lets have a moratorium on it, but not until its proven.
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
Looking fwd to reply
[quote]Originally posted by rhett:
[b]Such as LordBonJr's freind whose wife has been ostracised (sp sorry, I mean cut off) from the rest of her family. How ignorant and predjudiced (against people who are different).[/b][/quote]
Right word, don't worry... I wasn't gona correct it... my spelling is bad, ADHD and LD compound it... I was just in a bad modd [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] sorry to those who I corrected
"No, I think we should allow it, see what happens."
We already KNOW what will happen right now. We can see animal cloning, we can see what happens to them.
Cloning doesn't work right now! The chances of a successful clone, and a creature living without severe problems are extremely small! How can you then go forward right now with humans when it doesn't work even remotely well with animals?
"If I'm right, how will you know if its down syndrome, or is it a side effect from cloning?"
I don't give a damn if I know. Truth is truth. Either the child was born with down syndrome naturally, or some selfish scientist bastard tried a medical experiment that resulted in his condition.
Scientists have NO right to play with people's lives like that. Those kids didn't ask to be screwed like that. Those kids have every right to be born without scientists FORCING physical conditions on them by going forward with a procedure that guarantees a large majority of them will have problems.
"but not until its proven"
It is already proven that it doesn't work well enough to try it on humans. Animal cloning shows us that.
Animal cloning shows us there are severe problems with the procedures. Animal cloning already shows us those born develop or already have severe conditions as a result of the cloning!
"basis that some who take it commit suicide"
Those people chose to take Prozac. These kids haven't asked to be given severe medical conditions by selfish scientists trying to get into the history books.
Would you like a personal story now too? My uncle, who died four years ago, was severely retarded his entire life because of some scientists.. He didn't ask to be retarded like that, he didn't deserve it. It happened to him when he was a small baby and had to deal with it his entire life. Over 30 years of severe retardation.
Now I see people like you advocating that even more children be treated like lab rats and forced to live with conditions their entire lives by pushing procedures on them that are right now, unsuitable for human use.
When the animal success rate improves dramatically, THEN we can think about doing this to children. But not one damn moment before can this be allowed.
You were born with your condition naturally, my Uncle wasn't. Now you try to condem other children to his fate as well.
[quote]Originally posted by Santiago:
[b]We already KNOW what will happen right now. We can see animal cloning, we can see what happens to them.
Would you like a personal story now too? [/b][/quote]
Hmmm... Sorry to hear about your uncle.
I should develop liver cancer, if I take Ritalin. Why? The rats prove it. The human body is much more complex, aniamls aren't proof.
As to, "These kids haven't asked to be given severe medical conditions by selfish scientists trying to get into the history books." That’s peer emotion and bitterness, not everyone is like that, most aren't. Most want to go into the history books, but most great ones love what they do.
You can be a prophet of doom, but I have faith in the humanbody... We shall seee...
Last, "These kids haven't asked?" No one seems to care those foolish beliefs of a god, and his prophets are being forced upon children. Its the parents will...
I will be gone by noon friday... Hitting the beaches before school starts, [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] Have fun
LBJ, Santiago's statement may seem bitter and emotional but I think he's on the right track. We're talking about sentient lives here and scientific gain or no scientific gain, f*cking with people when you aren't at least 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% sure of the results is bad business. Even laser corrective surgery is marked at a one in a million chance (or some such astronomical figure) of going wrong and that's just one of the human's senses. Would we be so careless as to tamper with entire lives, with similar or worse consequences for failure, without at least having that same chance of error? Without, almost, fully understanding what we are doing?
------------------
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 08-10-2001).]
[quote]Originally posted by milod:
[b] Why, was [b]Star Wars 2: The Wrath of Clone[/b] already taken?
[/B][/quote]
Well, you know how much Paramount flexes their IP muscle, Milo [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
PS-- good to see you--I feared you fell off the planet there for a while!
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[i]"...In the end it would hold because what is built endures. And what is loved endures.
And Babylon 5...Babylon 5 endures."[/i] -- Delenn in the Babylon 5 episode [i]Rising Star[/i]
"Last, "These kids haven't asked?" No one seems to care those foolish beliefs of a god, and his prophets are being forced upon children. Its the parents will... "
I didn't bring up God, so why you say this, I don't know. Whether you believe or others believe in God isn't even relevant here. Two completely seperate issues.
As for being bitter and a prophet of doom, I can see facts for what they are. I don't bury my head in the sand and 'pray' things go ok for other people.
I see no reasons at all for persueing cloning right now other than self glorification of these scientists and so that they can say they were the first.
Enjoy the beach, make sure you put on sunscreen. If not, lets see how resiliant your human body is in ten years.
Comments
One thing that has been mentioned is genetic manipulation, changing sex, eye color, build etc. Generally this is frowned upon as bad, an interuption to human evolution.
Here is how I look at it. Human evolution was seriously interupted with the advent of medicines and uniform medical care for all people (I no it not [b]all[/b] people but that another debate). No longer do we have survival of the fittest. We tend to the weak and sickly, where as in the wild those genetic traits would die off. I argue that genetic manipulation can restore some of the genetic "health" that has been lost.
What do you think?
------------------
[b]Freejack: The Theoretical Subatomic Particle[/b]
[i]The structure of anger is repetition[/i]
Unknown Artist
[This message has been edited by Freejack (edited 08-08-2001).]
[b]Can you say "Gattaca"?
[/b][/quote]
Now [i]there's[/i] a good movie. The Gattaca scenario could be quite real in the future, IMHO.
And rhett: the disease point of view is a good one, and more probable to happen. Wonder why it didn't even occur to me?
------------------
Life is full of surprises. The ones reserved for me usually come wearing brass knuckles.
Freejack: I agree. I used the same argument in an evolution debate/fight. Every human can usually live to reproduce. I'm personally not against genetic engineering, but we MUST be very carefull and know EXACTLY what we are doing and what will happen when we do it. Geneticaly modified are currently dangerous, becaus ewe don't know how they will affect us or the enviroment.
[b]silencer: They did clone a sheep.[/b][/quote]
And looks look at how Dolly turned out! So now we have proof, this technique is unsafe on humans!
[b] becaus ewe don't know how they will affect us or the enviroment.[/b][/quote]
[i]Ewe[/i]...Dolly, Sheep, Teeehehe.
------------------
[b]Freejack: The Theoretical Subatomic Particle[/b]
[i]The structure of anger is repetition[/i]
Unknown Artist
[b]So the next time you hear that they "cloned" a sheep, tell them the truth. [/b][/quote]
Wow, for one who is telling us to set others streight, you show ignroance on this topic. First off, injecting DNA into an embryo only works in 1 and 10 cases, and this was NOT how it was done.
[quote]Originally posted by silencergroup:
[b]The ferilized ovum would have became a sheep anyway, what they did is alter it genetically to become similar to the original... Dolly IS NOT genetically identical to the original [/b][/quote]
PPL Therapeutics funded some guy named Ian Wilmut, who transferred the nuclei from a sheep cell and then placed it into an unfertilized sheep egg. (Thanks to microsurgery) these eggs lacked their nuclei. Once this was done, the egg’s chromosome was identical to the Doners chromosome cell, and therefore Dolly is genetically identical to the original.
Addressing your hypothetical, "ferilized [fertilized?] ovum would have became a sheep anyway[.]" for that specific ovum to be fertilized naturally the odds are against it, and since the ovum’s fertilization was the last step in the procedure (rephrase: the procedure was done) of course it became a sheep.
Go back to impeding scientific advancement by protesting stem cell research, or screaming, “Your going to hell” at women who already feel guilty for doing this abortion.
God speed,
The Atheist
[This message has been edited by LordBonJr (edited 08-08-2001).]
[This message has been edited by rhett (edited 08-08-2001).]
We've already suffered from science building us better weapons, From science developing better diseases to kill humanity, from science creating better methods for raping our planet.
Just because some people are cautious when it comes to such new and radical scientific procedures doesn't make them some religious extremists. I think the opposite is true, those pushing for the cloning of humans at this point in time are DANGEROUS individuals, they are the extremists, they are the radicals. They care nothing for their fellow man and only wish to advance their own cause.
The extremely high rate of defects with current animal clones should be all the reason enough not to go forward with human cloning.
We can easily shrug off destroying hundreds of rat clones for defects, how can you possible justify killing human children who suffer from defects during their development. And mind you, not all defects occur during a time when they can be aborted in the womb.
If we can't kill these genetic abominations, are we then supposed to release them into the general gene pool?
Persuing human cloning right now is nothing short of a mad scientist in his lab, doing exactly as that old story foretold, and creating a Frankenstein.
[b]For crying out loud, don't flame him! He was just stating what he knows.[/b][/quote]
Apologies, its my writing style, I wasn’t flaming him. The last bit was a bit over the top, it was quickly written and wasn’t even ware it was there. Sorry
Try and keep calm people. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
------------------
[b]Required reading: [url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[b]
Try and keep calm people. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]
lol, who that to, Mr Biggles? Cuz as much as I hate to tell you, I'm pre dosposed to being hyper, and when I hyperfocus people think I'm enraged [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
[quote]Santiago[b]
Not all science is good, not all scientific advancement should be persued...If we can't kill these genetic abominations, are we then supposed to release them into the general gene pool?
[/b][/quote]
Santiago, I'm a genetic defect, I have AD/HD, and depressed, am gifted and learning disabled, at age 7 I understood international affairs, read New York Times and Washington post on a regular basics, yet when they tested my reading skills I was placed in resource reading. I’m prone to violent outbursts, allowing some to believe I am borderline, when in fact these “violent outbursts” are just impassioned responses.
These "genetic abominations" you speak, please describe. Some of the most inspirational people I have ever met were kids with Down’s syndrome. One of parents friends has dyskinetic cerebral palsy, yet he has a Ph.D, married a non-disabled wife who’s family has cut off contact for marrying a "freak". This man has gone on and had 2 children; both are in college and have no defects.
Even in the early 80’s ADD was thought of as brain damage, and even today cerebral palsy is thought of as genetic, both are untrue, but I digress.
Allowing clones into our world is both safe, and ethically. If they are "genetic abominations" then natural selection will weed them out but if the defect is major and can be detected in the womb abortion is how it is handled.
I remember in my biology textbook reading the genetics chaper. They were talking about how people with Down Syndrom can still be "productive members in society." For some odd reason that gave me the chills. It seemed so, inhuman. Did you know if it wasn't for genetic engineering people with diabetes would be in far worse shape. Most insulin is produced with geneticly modified bacteria. (For some reason I'm not sure this is true, but this is what I have heard.) We MUST be carful with what we do.
Spoiler alert. ON
The evil bad guy put defects into his clones so when they out lived their usefullness to him they died.
Spoiler alert. OFF
I don't doubt that if cloning ever becomes a business [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/eek.gif[/img] this will happen. Look how they screwed up HMOs here in the USA. Profit before life, business as usual. Now that scares me. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/frown.gif[/img]
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/confused.gif[/img]
PS Could someone tell me how to turn the spoiler text invisable (ie the background blue)So people who do not want to see the spoiler text dont have to. Those who do want to read it just hightlight it with their mouse.Arik showed me one but I forget. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/redface.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by In Between (edited 08-09-2001).]
Otherwise, it's just blue text.
[This message has been edited by Sanfam (edited 08-09-2001).]
------------------
[b]Required reading: [url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[b]BTW
Star Wars Ep II:Attack of the Clones.
[img]http://www.darkhorizons.com/news10/sw2l.jpg[/img]
[/b][/quote]
Damn. And I was looking forward to [b]"Star Wars, Episode 2: I think I'm a Clone Now."[/b]
/duck
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/vsml.gif[/img]
------------------
[i]"...In the end it would hold because what is built endures. And what is loved endures.
And Babylon 5...Babylon 5 endures."[/i] -- Delenn in the Babylon 5 episode [i]Rising Star[/i]
[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 08-09-2001).]
I thought 6th Day was pretty good, despite pple cringing at the thought of Arnie trying to act. It was well written, and well thought out. There was a lot of stuff that got me thinking about cloning and related issues. I recommend pple to watch the film if they want to think about cloning.
------------------
[b]Commander[/b] socrates
flightleader, [i]Erinyes[/i]
The Gray Hand of Fate
AnlaShok Blackops
"Do [b]NOT[/b] interfere."
No, I'm talking, and I think I was quite clear, that these abominations will be the result of the cloning. They will be artificial, they will be the result of scientists screwing with human beings. Putting them through procedures they KNOW result in huge numbers of defects. Defects I can't imagine, nor can they, nor can you.
All we know is that by persuing cloning now, WILL result in large numbers of these kids and later adults having these unknown and artificial defects.
How can you promote procedures that you know WILL hurt people? Do you go to a pregnant woman and tell her to smoke crack? Tell her to smoke cigarettes? Tell her to drink liquor?
How can we allow scientists to create children who WILL have these unknown problems........
It's nothing short of cruelty. We are trying to help people, allow kids to be born without problems, not sentence others to problems for selfish gains.
"Some of the most inspirational people I have ever met were kids with Down’s syndrome."
And can you call yourself humane, or ethical if you create a child and MAKE him have down syndrome?
And like I said, not all problems are detectible in cloans in the womb. So you can't abort all cases of severe mutation or defects.
But I guess that doesn't matter, who gives a damn how many people get sick and are made sick as long as some scientist gets his name in the paper and history books. I think whoever persues this deserves a spot in the history books, right beside Mengela.
[b]
No, I'm talking, and I think I was quite clear, that these abominations will be the result of the cloning. They will be artificial, they will be the result of scientists screwing with human beings. Putting them through procedures they KNOW result in huge numbers of defects. Defects I can't imagine, nor can they, nor can you.
[/b][/quote]
Hmmm... if you think that we will be able to tell who is a clone and who isn't, well just look at our government and privacy. If I'm right, how will you know if its down syndrome, or is it a side effect from cloning?
No, I think we should allow it, see what happens. If people want to let them, its like those people who are critical or Prozac (not saying you are) on the basis that some who take it commit suicide.
Now if cloning is turns out to be disastrous, then lets have a moratorium on it, but not until its proven.
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
Looking fwd to reply
[b]LordBon: Hope u overcome ur difficulties. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]
Thanks, but my point is they aren't difficulties... They all have major plus's... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
[b]Such as LordBonJr's freind whose wife has been ostracised (sp sorry, I mean cut off) from the rest of her family. How ignorant and predjudiced (against people who are different).[/b][/quote]
Right word, don't worry... I wasn't gona correct it... my spelling is bad, ADHD and LD compound it... I was just in a bad modd [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] sorry to those who I corrected
We already KNOW what will happen right now. We can see animal cloning, we can see what happens to them.
Cloning doesn't work right now! The chances of a successful clone, and a creature living without severe problems are extremely small! How can you then go forward right now with humans when it doesn't work even remotely well with animals?
"If I'm right, how will you know if its down syndrome, or is it a side effect from cloning?"
I don't give a damn if I know. Truth is truth. Either the child was born with down syndrome naturally, or some selfish scientist bastard tried a medical experiment that resulted in his condition.
Scientists have NO right to play with people's lives like that. Those kids didn't ask to be screwed like that. Those kids have every right to be born without scientists FORCING physical conditions on them by going forward with a procedure that guarantees a large majority of them will have problems.
"but not until its proven"
It is already proven that it doesn't work well enough to try it on humans. Animal cloning shows us that.
Animal cloning shows us there are severe problems with the procedures. Animal cloning already shows us those born develop or already have severe conditions as a result of the cloning!
"basis that some who take it commit suicide"
Those people chose to take Prozac. These kids haven't asked to be given severe medical conditions by selfish scientists trying to get into the history books.
Would you like a personal story now too? My uncle, who died four years ago, was severely retarded his entire life because of some scientists.. He didn't ask to be retarded like that, he didn't deserve it. It happened to him when he was a small baby and had to deal with it his entire life. Over 30 years of severe retardation.
Now I see people like you advocating that even more children be treated like lab rats and forced to live with conditions their entire lives by pushing procedures on them that are right now, unsuitable for human use.
When the animal success rate improves dramatically, THEN we can think about doing this to children. But not one damn moment before can this be allowed.
You were born with your condition naturally, my Uncle wasn't. Now you try to condem other children to his fate as well.
[b]We already KNOW what will happen right now. We can see animal cloning, we can see what happens to them.
Would you like a personal story now too? [/b][/quote]
Hmmm... Sorry to hear about your uncle.
I should develop liver cancer, if I take Ritalin. Why? The rats prove it. The human body is much more complex, aniamls aren't proof.
As to, "These kids haven't asked to be given severe medical conditions by selfish scientists trying to get into the history books." That’s peer emotion and bitterness, not everyone is like that, most aren't. Most want to go into the history books, but most great ones love what they do.
You can be a prophet of doom, but I have faith in the humanbody... We shall seee...
Last, "These kids haven't asked?" No one seems to care those foolish beliefs of a god, and his prophets are being forced upon children. Its the parents will...
I will be gone by noon friday... Hitting the beaches before school starts, [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] Have fun
[b] Damn. And I was looking forward to [b]"Star Wars, Episode 2: I think I'm a Clone Now."[/b][/quote]
Why, was [b]Star Wars 2: The Wrath of Clone[/b] already taken?
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--milo
[url="http://www.starshatter.com"]http://www.starshatter.com[/url]
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"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 08-10-2001).]
[b] Why, was [b]Star Wars 2: The Wrath of Clone[/b] already taken?
[/B][/quote]
Well, you know how much Paramount flexes their IP muscle, Milo [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
PS-- good to see you--I feared you fell off the planet there for a while!
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[i]"...In the end it would hold because what is built endures. And what is loved endures.
And Babylon 5...Babylon 5 endures."[/i] -- Delenn in the Babylon 5 episode [i]Rising Star[/i]
I didn't bring up God, so why you say this, I don't know. Whether you believe or others believe in God isn't even relevant here. Two completely seperate issues.
As for being bitter and a prophet of doom, I can see facts for what they are. I don't bury my head in the sand and 'pray' things go ok for other people.
I see no reasons at all for persueing cloning right now other than self glorification of these scientists and so that they can say they were the first.
Enjoy the beach, make sure you put on sunscreen. If not, lets see how resiliant your human body is in ten years.
[b] Damn. And I was looking forward to [b]"Star Wars, Episode 2: I think I'm a Clone Now."[/b]
/duck
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/vsml.gif[/img]
[/B][/quote]
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
Argggggg!!!!!!
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]