I should not post just after waking up [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
Yes, I understand what is being talked about...now. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] The American Media has an astounding level of influence in the daily life of most Americans. I have always been annoyed at how it always has to find something to do, too. It cannot take a holiday, nor can it simply leave me alone for a minute. Instead, it creates some damn Cuban Immigrant thing, or digs up a scandal, or simply does something to get on my nerves. Anyways, I'm sleepy. I'll continue this post-in-progress tommorrow [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
[quote]Originally posted by Biggles:
[b]Don't make me moderate your ass! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]
Sorry, thats a one way street. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
------------------
[b]Wesley[/b]: Worf, tell me what you know about attracting women.
[b]Worf[/b]: *roars loudly*
[b]Wesley[/b]: So you are saying i should roar?
[b]Worf[/b]: No. The women roar..... and hurl heavy objects.
what I do find refreshing is that the 'real' americans appear online... this nice big, very democratic place makes it easy for the smart... concious and much more respectable brand of person to express themselves.
Turn off TV, your radio and cancel the newspaper.... go online for what really goes down.
Dont be spoonfed.. go looking for the real story... and suddenly you become a real human being.
First of all, well said Randy.
Second, you can find idiots online as well, there are just fewer of them here.
This place (FirstOnes) is a good example of what JMS has said about B5 building communities. Due to the nature of the show, the B5 communities tend to be populated by literate, intelligent, thoughtful and downright nice people.
Although we have our share of juvenile antics, I always enjoy coming here.
Game or no, I hope this place keeps going for a long time.
Z
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Don't worry, it will!
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[b]Check out the writing skills of this person: [url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[quote]Originally posted by Zosolias:
[b]First of all, well said Randy.
Second, you can find idiots online as well, there are just fewer of them here.
This place (FirstOnes) is a good example of what JMS has said about B5 building communities. Due to the nature of the show, the B5 communities tend to be populated by literate, intelligent, thoughtful and downright nice people.
Although we have our share of juvenile antics, I always enjoy coming here.
Game or no, I hope this place keeps going for a long time.
Z[/b][/quote]
Not to be a complete ass but HAH! These forums, including the mod ones, have had their share of cult-like gang ups and inquisitions! "Let thine guard down and thou art allowing the enemy in" -- EXACTLY what is happening here! I keep hearing the above statements but it never changes; none of you remember! Well, remember the words you have spoken here and now and think reeeeeeeeeeeeal hard the next time a member's or members' assinine behaviour ticks you off. Maybe then we won't get all the self-righteous crap that is, no doubt, scaring away potential members and the ones we already have!
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"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 07-19-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 07-19-2001).]
There is a gray area between naive tolerance and bigotry. It’s difficult navigating the gray area. That’s why most would rather have someone else do the piloting. But with risking the difficult path comes wisdom. And wisdom can only be found on the wrong turns, dead ends, ruts, and quagmires of the difficult path.
I think that Firstones.com is admirably like the ideal set for us in the namesake show. Overall we have created a tolerant place of knowledge, fun, and good heartedness – even though it has at times taken a bit of peer pressure to set the tone for new members. Has the peer pressure become intolerant on occasion? Sure. But then peer pressure turns on the intolerant. After the rough spot we who follow the difficult path are rewarded with a bit of wisdom.
JMS took the difficult path with Babylon 5. And the characters we follow take the difficult path. This does not make their lives easier, just the opposite. But they become wise. Others benefit from their experience. Something good forms around them.
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 07-19-2001).]
I will pick another example to help Randy out, from my forums (for us band geeks :P). I'm the administrator, and what I thought was harmless teasing blew up in my face. So I did the best thing I could think of, I explained myself and apologized. I could have banned her, edit or deleted her post, but I said the most difficult thing to say in my language, "I am sorry." Doing the ban stuff would be easyer, but I didn't. I'm so proud of myself [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
*psst! Hurry, shrink my ego down [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]*
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
I have personal experience of bad stuff happening here to me. And I'm still here.
------------------
[b]Check out the writing skills of this person: [url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
Some of you may learn from specific instances and know not to repeat them but like I said, [i]the same thing keeps happening anyway[/i]. Not enough is remembered and understood to prevent situations with the same effect but different causes. Everyone involved or spectating is too busy trying to ignore or forget instead of analyzing the ramifications. It annoys me to see, now, what I consider a "dim vigil". Only full identification and understanding of this social model's most-hard-to-confront weaknesses will ensure the negative instances, that plague our past, do not repeat themselves. I think any objective viewer would agree: our ways have not changed so much since one or even two years ago. I also think none of you realize the danger as it subtlely creeps up; only when it is or is nearly upon us do any of us act, if at all.
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"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
I one heard about a lady who had a very hot temper. But she thought getting angrey was unprofessional. So she would bottle it all up, and then blow up like an overinflated ballon. The rest of the time, she was the most charming person you could meet, but when you could tell she was angrey, you knew you were in Big Trouble.
Sort of like us, huh? Except I would gladly take two years of relitive peace for maybe a two weeks total of inclementness. Your acting like the next blow up will be the last blow up, like we can't stear our ship through those rough waters as we have before. Or like we become [i]less[/i] adapt at handeling interpersonal disputes with each new one. Like we lose experience, rather than gain it. You have to have faith that things will work out for the best. Otherwise, why keep going?
Well, I wouldn't say that we're dead the next time it hits the fan because communities like ours don't break down *just* for such reasons. However, our progress in the other direction is like I said, event by event. Considering that there is a mind boggling amount of possibilities, this is a retarded rate at which to move. I also don't agree with this punctuated equalibrium; there are several boards where voicing a gripe, even with one or two flames, is acceptable and I have not seen them utterly disintegrate yet. Besides, for a community that prides itself for exposing "evil suit mentality" and JMS's "telling it like it is" we sure are squeamish about being out-of-line or too outstanding from the rest of the group.
------------------
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 07-19-2001).]
To keep it short:
Legal system.
The Giant Corporations.
The Media.
Religious fanatics/activists
Bush
Note that these are not only problems in the U.S.
I have nothing against (american)individuals, the Americans here have given me a positive image of american people.
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The Maker has gifted us with great big eyes and great big scanners and great big, er... Well, that is no concern of your's."
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
I don't think we are too restrictive. We are far less retrictive than we were nearly 2 years ago.
------------------
[b]Required reading: [url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
------------------
Catapvltam habeo. Nisi pecvniam omnem mihi dabis, ad capvt tvvm saxvm immane mittam.
Mater tva criceta fvit, et pater tvo redolvit bacarvm sambvcvs.
Biggles: You hang out here... well... A LOT. Yer used to it; a lot of us ain't even if it is less "restrictive."
Croxis: That's a large part of what I'm saying; however, it is all the negative attributes, I have outlined, of our community that has got me on my soap box...
------------------
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
I don't see how this place is at all restrictive. The most we do to limit the freedom is to censor certain words, move posts to proper forums, and in rare situations, delete posts which are obviously flames.
ACK! an assualt on the US legal system from a furriner! evil! must squash!
Sorry, I know the US legal system has ALOT of problems but I would take the US system of laws and court procedures based on the old fashion common law/prescedent system then any of the non english legal systems. Most of europs legal systems are based on roman law (how draconian is that?) in which presedent and alot of times extenuating circomstances are not taken into consideration. What matters mostly is if there is a violation of the statute, not exactly under what circomstances it occurs
further more I dont think europeans realize the level of protections we enjoy here against the state making a succesfull criminal prosecution. Frankly its one of the reasons why the United States has a death penalty. Euro's may get pissed at this but even with bad Public defenders, the United States probably has a lower percentage of innocents behind bars then European nations do, just do to the sophistication of the protections and the appeals system
If I was at school right now I could drag out all my comparitive law books and reinforce my arguments, but its a general consensus that its better to get arrested in the US then most anywhere else in my law classes [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
As for the Kyoto accords I dont understand the complaining? the US got painted as the bad guy for not sigining them, okay would everybody like to name other major signatories? here's a hint, the only euro country to sign the accords is romania. and those who are REALLY in the political know understand that the were DOA in the developed nations, Italy, UK, Japan, Germany and France were never gonna sign it either, but they were going to be quiet about it. All those countries economies are hurting bad already (though they dont want to mention it, all of them except UK and Italy currently have double digit unemployment, although they are sitting on those figures too) and any more "green" policies will send alot of their companies either out of buisness our out of the country
Hi,
just slipped into this discussion (have not read every statement made). I hope you don't take my reply personal although its style may not be polished (sorry -- stressful days [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]).
[quote]Originally posted by Tyvar:
[b]
If I was at school right now I could drag out all my comparitive law books and reinforce my arguments, but its a general consensus that its better to get arrested in the US then most anywhere else in my law classes [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img][/b][/quote]
Sorry, if I am rude... but that sounds like a bunch of brainwashed people to me. Maybe you should have a look into other books and some newspapers, too (Yes I do think it's a good idea to read international newspapers).
[quote][b]
As for the Kyoto accords I dont understand the complaining? the US got painted as the bad guy for not sigining them, okay would everybody like to name other major signatories? here's a hint, the only euro country to sign the accords is romania.[/b][/quote]
Oh, how do you do that? I mean to look into the future.
[quote][b] and those who are REALLY in the political know understand that the were DOA in the developed nations, Italy, UK, Japan, Germany and France were never gonna sign it either, but they were going to be quiet about it. All those countries economies are hurting bad already (though they dont want to mention it, all of them except UK and Italy currently have double digit unemployment, although they are sitting on those figures too) and any more "green" policies will send alot of their companies either out of buisness our out of the country[/b][/quote]
Correct: The Kyoto protocol is not even sufficient to reach helpful environmental politics.
Incorrect: That's the reason of the USA not signing it -- it's simple greediness and fear of a change (see next answer).
Incorrect: "Green" policies do only cost money. In fact it is possible to form a environmental economics. Of course that means that national economics must change, and with that the worldwide dominance of environmentally desastrous economics and business practices.
Correct: With that in mind -- the USA could be a pathfinder in environmentally responsible economics and become world leader (he, they like that, after all [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]) in this sector.
Question: What did the USA do for an improvement of the Kyoto protocol?
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We are one. No matter the blood, no matter the skin, no matter the world, no matter the star. .. We are one.
No matter the pain, no matter the darkness, no matter the loss, no matter the fear. .. We are one.
- Alliance Preamble to the Declaration of Principles, The Paragon of Animals
Webmaster [url="http://www.Sprungtor.de"]www.Sprungtor.de[/url]
[quote]Originally posted by Language of Hope:
[b]Hi,
just slipped into this discussion (have not read every statement made). I hope you don't take my reply personal although its style may not be polished (sorry -- stressful days [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]).
[/b]
Not a problem, same here [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
[b]
Sorry, if I am rude... but that sounds like a bunch of brainwashed people to me. Maybe you should have a look into other books and some newspapers, too (Yes I do think it's a good idea to read international newspapers).
[/b]
My compartive law texts are quite good actualy. And it is true, continental europe relies on what is known as "Code Justininan"
which is just constant update's of legal theories from Roman times, where as in the commonwealth nations and the United States (and others) the "common law" system which has its origins in the tribal councils of yore.
How much do you know about comparitive law? The most fundamental principle of American criminal procedure "Innocent untill proven guilty" is lacking in europe, you are very much guilty untill you prove your innocence. In europe you are universaly garunteed trial, but not a jury trial or even constitutionaly gaurnteed the right to council.
[b]
Correct: The Kyoto protocol is not even sufficient to reach helpful environmental politics.
[/b]
Id argue that its totally pointless, Alot of the science on the true effects of CO2 is highly inconclusive, when taken into accounts that fossil records indicate that on average the planet is a fairly warm place and that the last ice age was only 10,000 years ago, and it was a short one at that, some climatoligits have sound theories we may not have left the iceage yet, and are only in a "spike" period (Ice ages are not truly marked by glacial expansion, but are more acuratly periods of rapid glacial expansion and retraction, which is a side effect of rapid short term (like in a century) climactic shifts. I have a good science background and overall I am sceptical of most of the greenhouse claims,core samples are showing that the Eocene (55 million years ago) epics ambient CO2 level was somewhere between 180 and 550 ppm with the good money placing it at 385 ppm which isnt that much lower then levels currently (Pearson, P.N. and Palmer, M.R. 2000. Atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations over the past 60 million years. Nature 406: 695-699. in case you want my source for that)
I think you should do alot of hard reaserch on both sides of the issue, alot of the enviornmental information people are getting is real brainwashing.
[b]
Correct: With that in mind -- the USA could
be a pathfinder in environmentally responsible economics and become world leader (he, they like that, after all [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]) in this sector.
[b]
Question: What did the USA do for an improvement of the Kyoto protocol?
[/b][/quote]
Why is improvement needed? the Kyoto protocals are horribly flawed and unfair
The most recent changes allow Australia, Japan, and Russia to classify their forests as C02 sinks and thus add there theoretical CO2 absorbtion rates from their production limitations, however the United States, which holds more forested acers then Japan and Austrailia combined is specificly limited from doing the same? The Kyoto accords are pointless. The hard science HASNT come in supporting the CO2 greenhouse gas theory (there is alot of counter evidence that needs to be adiquatly delt with and there are MANY serious scientits who doubt the theory, political correctness aside) and there are climatolgists who argue that any warming trend that does exist may be natural (pointing out that the plistocene era as a measure stick was 6C warmer then current climate condidtions) I think the Kyoto accords are unfair and unnecessary
[This message has been edited by Tyvar (edited 07-25-2001).]
If it turns you on Biggles you can moderate me! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
You're sick. As eveidenced by your ******* fetish.
------------------
[b]Required reading: [url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
The bottom line is that our ever expanding population shares a small planet with limited resources. Just take a look at Earth from, say, Mars. Then think of our planet in terms of what we know about average planets out there. Then think of the vastness of space.
The only thing that makes sense at this time in history is for all humans to become tolerant and begin to share the responsibility for maintaining a balance between use and misuse of our environment.
I suspect that most would go along with this if it weren’t for those in powerful positions who gain by instigating turmoil through intolerance and control of both wealth and knowledge.
We certainly can not continue on the path that we are currently on. If ecological collapse doesn't bite us in the ass soon, it will surely nevertheless bite us on the ass in time if we don't change our ways. It is time for us to grow out of human adolescence, stop fighting boundary wars, stop with the "me first greed thing" and grow up. Towards this goal I would rather have the U.S. be of significant help, rather than significant hindrance. At this time I don’t see U.S. leadership working towards the well-being of all humankind. Instead I see the last gasp of dinosaurs struggling to maintain an unhealthy status quo.
Humankind is at a crossroad. What’s it going to be?
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 07-25-2001).]
Time is a one-way street. You choose your path, and then stick to it. There is no turning back once you get on the road.
To your left is environmental soundness, peace, and prosperity at the cost of power. To your right is power at the cost of chaos, ecological disaster, and social disorder. Directly ahead is another crossroad with different options. possibly better, possibly worse. No one can tell.
Thank you for calling. That will be $14.75. Have a nice day. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/vsml.gif[/img]
I hope my message has been insightful [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
Comments
Yes, I understand what is being talked about...now. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] The American Media has an astounding level of influence in the daily life of most Americans. I have always been annoyed at how it always has to find something to do, too. It cannot take a holiday, nor can it simply leave me alone for a minute. Instead, it creates some damn Cuban Immigrant thing, or digs up a scandal, or simply does something to get on my nerves. Anyways, I'm sleepy. I'll continue this post-in-progress tommorrow [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
[b]Don't make me moderate your ass! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]
Sorry, thats a one way street. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
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[b]Wesley[/b]: Worf, tell me what you know about attracting women.
[b]Worf[/b]: *roars loudly*
[b]Wesley[/b]: So you are saying i should roar?
[b]Worf[/b]: No. The women roar..... and hurl heavy objects.
[i]- Star Trek: The Next Generation[/i]
Turn off TV, your radio and cancel the newspaper.... go online for what really goes down.
Dont be spoonfed.. go looking for the real story... and suddenly you become a real human being.
Second, you can find idiots online as well, there are just fewer of them here.
This place (FirstOnes) is a good example of what JMS has said about B5 building communities. Due to the nature of the show, the B5 communities tend to be populated by literate, intelligent, thoughtful and downright nice people.
Although we have our share of juvenile antics, I always enjoy coming here.
Game or no, I hope this place keeps going for a long time.
Z
------------------
[b]Check out the writing skills of this person: [url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[b]First of all, well said Randy.
Second, you can find idiots online as well, there are just fewer of them here.
This place (FirstOnes) is a good example of what JMS has said about B5 building communities. Due to the nature of the show, the B5 communities tend to be populated by literate, intelligent, thoughtful and downright nice people.
Although we have our share of juvenile antics, I always enjoy coming here.
Game or no, I hope this place keeps going for a long time.
Z[/b][/quote]
Not to be a complete ass but HAH! These forums, including the mod ones, have had their share of cult-like gang ups and inquisitions! "Let thine guard down and thou art allowing the enemy in" -- EXACTLY what is happening here! I keep hearing the above statements but it never changes; none of you remember! Well, remember the words you have spoken here and now and think reeeeeeeeeeeeal hard the next time a member's or members' assinine behaviour ticks you off. Maybe then we won't get all the self-righteous crap that is, no doubt, scaring away potential members and the ones we already have!
------------------
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 07-19-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 07-19-2001).]
There is a gray area between naive tolerance and bigotry. It’s difficult navigating the gray area. That’s why most would rather have someone else do the piloting. But with risking the difficult path comes wisdom. And wisdom can only be found on the wrong turns, dead ends, ruts, and quagmires of the difficult path.
I think that Firstones.com is admirably like the ideal set for us in the namesake show. Overall we have created a tolerant place of knowledge, fun, and good heartedness – even though it has at times taken a bit of peer pressure to set the tone for new members. Has the peer pressure become intolerant on occasion? Sure. But then peer pressure turns on the intolerant. After the rough spot we who follow the difficult path are rewarded with a bit of wisdom.
JMS took the difficult path with Babylon 5. And the characters we follow take the difficult path. This does not make their lives easier, just the opposite. But they become wise. Others benefit from their experience. Something good forms around them.
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 07-19-2001).]
*psst! Hurry, shrink my ego down [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]*
------------------
[b]Check out the writing skills of this person: [url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
------------------
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
-J.F.K.
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
Sort of like us, huh? Except I would gladly take two years of relitive peace for maybe a two weeks total of inclementness. Your acting like the next blow up will be the last blow up, like we can't stear our ship through those rough waters as we have before. Or like we become [i]less[/i] adapt at handeling interpersonal disputes with each new one. Like we lose experience, rather than gain it. You have to have faith that things will work out for the best. Otherwise, why keep going?
------------------
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 07-19-2001).]
Legal system.
The Giant Corporations.
The Media.
Religious fanatics/activists
Bush
Note that these are not only problems in the U.S.
I have nothing against (american)individuals, the Americans here have given me a positive image of american people.
------------------
The Maker has gifted us with great big eyes and great big scanners and great big, er... Well, that is no concern of your's."
------------------
[b]Required reading: [url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
Cherio.
------------------
Catapvltam habeo. Nisi pecvniam omnem mihi dabis, ad capvt tvvm saxvm immane mittam.
Mater tva criceta fvit, et pater tvo redolvit bacarvm sambvcvs.
Croxis: That's a large part of what I'm saying; however, it is all the negative attributes, I have outlined, of our community that has got me on my soap box...
------------------
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
Sorry, I know the US legal system has ALOT of problems but I would take the US system of laws and court procedures based on the old fashion common law/prescedent system then any of the non english legal systems. Most of europs legal systems are based on roman law (how draconian is that?) in which presedent and alot of times extenuating circomstances are not taken into consideration. What matters mostly is if there is a violation of the statute, not exactly under what circomstances it occurs
further more I dont think europeans realize the level of protections we enjoy here against the state making a succesfull criminal prosecution. Frankly its one of the reasons why the United States has a death penalty. Euro's may get pissed at this but even with bad Public defenders, the United States probably has a lower percentage of innocents behind bars then European nations do, just do to the sophistication of the protections and the appeals system
If I was at school right now I could drag out all my comparitive law books and reinforce my arguments, but its a general consensus that its better to get arrested in the US then most anywhere else in my law classes [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
As for the Kyoto accords I dont understand the complaining? the US got painted as the bad guy for not sigining them, okay would everybody like to name other major signatories? here's a hint, the only euro country to sign the accords is romania. and those who are REALLY in the political know understand that the were DOA in the developed nations, Italy, UK, Japan, Germany and France were never gonna sign it either, but they were going to be quiet about it. All those countries economies are hurting bad already (though they dont want to mention it, all of them except UK and Italy currently have double digit unemployment, although they are sitting on those figures too) and any more "green" policies will send alot of their companies either out of buisness our out of the country
just slipped into this discussion (have not read every statement made). I hope you don't take my reply personal although its style may not be polished (sorry -- stressful days [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]).
[quote]Originally posted by Tyvar:
[b]
If I was at school right now I could drag out all my comparitive law books and reinforce my arguments, but its a general consensus that its better to get arrested in the US then most anywhere else in my law classes [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img][/b][/quote]
Sorry, if I am rude... but that sounds like a bunch of brainwashed people to me. Maybe you should have a look into other books and some newspapers, too (Yes I do think it's a good idea to read international newspapers).
[quote][b]
As for the Kyoto accords I dont understand the complaining? the US got painted as the bad guy for not sigining them, okay would everybody like to name other major signatories? here's a hint, the only euro country to sign the accords is romania.[/b][/quote]
Oh, how do you do that? I mean to look into the future.
[quote][b] and those who are REALLY in the political know understand that the were DOA in the developed nations, Italy, UK, Japan, Germany and France were never gonna sign it either, but they were going to be quiet about it. All those countries economies are hurting bad already (though they dont want to mention it, all of them except UK and Italy currently have double digit unemployment, although they are sitting on those figures too) and any more "green" policies will send alot of their companies either out of buisness our out of the country[/b][/quote]
Correct: The Kyoto protocol is not even sufficient to reach helpful environmental politics.
Incorrect: That's the reason of the USA not signing it -- it's simple greediness and fear of a change (see next answer).
Incorrect: "Green" policies do only cost money. In fact it is possible to form a environmental economics. Of course that means that national economics must change, and with that the worldwide dominance of environmentally desastrous economics and business practices.
Correct: With that in mind -- the USA could be a pathfinder in environmentally responsible economics and become world leader (he, they like that, after all [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]) in this sector.
Question: What did the USA do for an improvement of the Kyoto protocol?
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[b]Hi,
just slipped into this discussion (have not read every statement made). I hope you don't take my reply personal although its style may not be polished (sorry -- stressful days [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]).
[/b]
Not a problem, same here [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
[b]
Sorry, if I am rude... but that sounds like a bunch of brainwashed people to me. Maybe you should have a look into other books and some newspapers, too (Yes I do think it's a good idea to read international newspapers).
[/b]
My compartive law texts are quite good actualy. And it is true, continental europe relies on what is known as "Code Justininan"
which is just constant update's of legal theories from Roman times, where as in the commonwealth nations and the United States (and others) the "common law" system which has its origins in the tribal councils of yore.
How much do you know about comparitive law? The most fundamental principle of American criminal procedure "Innocent untill proven guilty" is lacking in europe, you are very much guilty untill you prove your innocence. In europe you are universaly garunteed trial, but not a jury trial or even constitutionaly gaurnteed the right to council.
[b]
Correct: The Kyoto protocol is not even sufficient to reach helpful environmental politics.
[/b]
Id argue that its totally pointless, Alot of the science on the true effects of CO2 is highly inconclusive, when taken into accounts that fossil records indicate that on average the planet is a fairly warm place and that the last ice age was only 10,000 years ago, and it was a short one at that, some climatoligits have sound theories we may not have left the iceage yet, and are only in a "spike" period (Ice ages are not truly marked by glacial expansion, but are more acuratly periods of rapid glacial expansion and retraction, which is a side effect of rapid short term (like in a century) climactic shifts. I have a good science background and overall I am sceptical of most of the greenhouse claims,core samples are showing that the Eocene (55 million years ago) epics ambient CO2 level was somewhere between 180 and 550 ppm with the good money placing it at 385 ppm which isnt that much lower then levels currently (Pearson, P.N. and Palmer, M.R. 2000. Atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations over the past 60 million years. Nature 406: 695-699. in case you want my source for that)
I think you should do alot of hard reaserch on both sides of the issue, alot of the enviornmental information people are getting is real brainwashing.
[b]
Correct: With that in mind -- the USA could
be a pathfinder in environmentally responsible economics and become world leader (he, they like that, after all [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]) in this sector.
[b]
Question: What did the USA do for an improvement of the Kyoto protocol?
[/b][/quote]
Why is improvement needed? the Kyoto protocals are horribly flawed and unfair
The most recent changes allow Australia, Japan, and Russia to classify their forests as C02 sinks and thus add there theoretical CO2 absorbtion rates from their production limitations, however the United States, which holds more forested acers then Japan and Austrailia combined is specificly limited from doing the same? The Kyoto accords are pointless. The hard science HASNT come in supporting the CO2 greenhouse gas theory (there is alot of counter evidence that needs to be adiquatly delt with and there are MANY serious scientits who doubt the theory, political correctness aside) and there are climatolgists who argue that any warming trend that does exist may be natural (pointing out that the plistocene era as a measure stick was 6C warmer then current climate condidtions) I think the Kyoto accords are unfair and unnecessary
[This message has been edited by Tyvar (edited 07-25-2001).]
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[b]Required reading: [url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
The only thing that makes sense at this time in history is for all humans to become tolerant and begin to share the responsibility for maintaining a balance between use and misuse of our environment.
I suspect that most would go along with this if it weren’t for those in powerful positions who gain by instigating turmoil through intolerance and control of both wealth and knowledge.
We certainly can not continue on the path that we are currently on. If ecological collapse doesn't bite us in the ass soon, it will surely nevertheless bite us on the ass in time if we don't change our ways. It is time for us to grow out of human adolescence, stop fighting boundary wars, stop with the "me first greed thing" and grow up. Towards this goal I would rather have the U.S. be of significant help, rather than significant hindrance. At this time I don’t see U.S. leadership working towards the well-being of all humankind. Instead I see the last gasp of dinosaurs struggling to maintain an unhealthy status quo.
Humankind is at a crossroad. What’s it going to be?
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 07-25-2001).]
To your left is environmental soundness, peace, and prosperity at the cost of power. To your right is power at the cost of chaos, ecological disaster, and social disorder. Directly ahead is another crossroad with different options. possibly better, possibly worse. No one can tell.
Thank you for calling. That will be $14.75. Have a nice day. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/vsml.gif[/img]
I hope my message has been insightful [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]