Sam: You hit it on the dot there [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
Technobabble in moderation is fine. Technobabble doesn't have to be fictional, either. It's just as the name says: Technological Babble. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] Anyhoo, Babylon 5 uses it, Farscape uses is, Star Wars uses it, and Star Trek uses it. It's just that, as Sam said, Trek uses it in such a way that it is bad. Technobabble can used safely and happily to [i]suppliment[/i] the story, but goes bad when it [i]becomes[/i] the story.
As for prejudging the series:
I almost always take anything with a positive thought. Looking at things with a negative eye only produces a negative, but looking at it with a positive outlook can give you a negative as well as a positive. It's only a slight change in thinking. Because of this, I took a strong liking to farscape, and deep space nine. I also found that being a little less critical and nitpicky of things such as television and movies helps enjoyment, but that's another story
The wonderful thing about Babylon5 and the Universe that JMS has created is story. All things are not clearly spell out and much is left to the viewers imagination. It fills one with a thirst that cannot be quenched. Look now how we are all waiting and wondering how the new series will expand what know and love.
I can see that Hamblin is right, too much of something leads to its downfall. Its happened before and will happen again (some of the more recent startrek stuff, season 4+ of buffy, starwars episode 1, the hundreds of c&c and quake clones out there...)
Now, to sort out this st vs b5 thing...
Startrek may have some bad episodes, but on the other hand, what series doesnt? I mean even B5 had bad episodes (TKO). The thing is, Star Trek was designed to be a series of different episodes with a different adventure every week, so that people can start watching any time and not wonder whats going on. B5 on the other hand has very few episodes that could be watched by someone new to the series and they would know what was going on...and I dont think any of them come any later than season 3.
Imagine watching Z'ha'dum as your first ever episode...you would have no idea what was going on.
Startrek and B5 are different, to enjoy Star Trek, all you have to do is sit back and watch. B5 on the other hand, you need to watch every episode in the right order. Thats how their designed to be.
Worf
------------------
"Playing computer and video games doesnt create murderers and terrorists....cancelling computer and video games creates them." -Me-
Join the fight for freedom at [url="http://www.newrepublic.de"]http://www.newrepublic.de[/url] and [url="http://www.isd-imperium.co.uk"]http://www.isd-imperium.co.uk[/url]
Maybe that's the thing [b]WORF[/b]. Maybe we have been spoiled by shows like B5 and others that have long interesting arcs. And after DeepSpaceNine we tended to expect Trek to continue with story arcs.
I don't know, at the risk of getting [b]Commander Hamblin[/b] ticked off again, I think one reason people aren't as interested in StarTrek these days is there is nothing there that hasn't been done. And there's really no episodes that make you think and let you draw your own conclusions anymore.
Or maybe that's just me.
BTW - [b]bobo[/b]
[i]I think the whole show will be summed up for you in the last episode when Sheridan's duck comes through the jump point.
...sniff...
it still brings tears to my eyes thinking about it.[/i]
Do I dare ask? [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
------------------
[b]Commander Hamblin[/b] has forbidden me to read anything here other than [i]this[/i] thread.
[This message has been edited by CaptainHope (edited 05-23-2001).]
I watch Star Trek episodes like I watch game shows...interesting while their on, but after that, they're out of my mind. Nothing makes me think after it's over.
I often wonder/dream/hypothesize about Babylon 5 episodes (or episodes of other shows that push boundaries) after I watch them.
In a long, complex game like Baldur's Gate (or the even more complex sequel), you really have to get into it, find out what's going on, anf enjoy the story, and here we have B5.
on the other hand, we've got something like Quake III, which is VERY similar to what has been done before, but prettier. the good thing is that you can just jump into it and not look back, then get out without a thought, here we have Trek.
of course, there are variations between the two, like System Shock (DS9), and the like.
------------------
Catapvltam habeo. Nisi pecvniam omnem mihi dabis, ad capvt tvvm saxvm immane mittam.
Mater tva criceta fvit, et pater tvo redolvit bacarvm sambvcvs.
[quote]Originally posted by samuelk:
[b]It's not just you, Hope...
I watch Star Trek episodes like I watch game shows...interesting while their on, but after that, they're out of my mind. Nothing makes me think after it's over.
I often wonder/dream/hypothesize about Babylon 5 episodes (or episodes of other shows that push boundaries) after I watch them. [/b][/quote]
This is indeed a remarkable thing: a tv show that induces thinking [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]. In fact, I believe that's the core of the feeling I've had about B5: it is interesting to think about it, to speculate and get into the story and watch it develop.
... I do miss B5.
To return to the original discussion. Cdr Hamblin does address some possible hazards. But: We're talking about JMS. I am far from seeing him as unfailing but what reason should he have to bust "his universe"? He always said "it's a big universe to play with", and I doubt that we ever see him fail to tell at least an interesting and new story.
Of course, there might not be story elements as "big" as the Firstones/Vorlon-Shadow conflict but B5:LR is not intended to be a drama like B5 but an "adventure with dramatic elements". Let's see.
------------------
We are one. No matter the blood, no matter the skin, no matter the world, no matter the star. .. We are one.
No matter the pain, no matter the darkness, no matter the loss, no matter the fear. .. We are one.
- Alliance Preamble to the Declaration of Principles, The Paragon of Animals
Webmaster [url="http://www.Sprungtor.de"]www.Sprungtor.de[/url]
[quote]Originally posted by CaptainHope:
[b]Maybe that's the thing WORF. Maybe we have been spoiled by shows like B5 and others that have long interesting arcs. [...][/b][/quote]
Spoiled? [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
I have no problem when someone calls me choosy because B5 has changed my perception of tv scifi. I have certainly become more critical but that doesn't mean less fun -- it's just that I have more time for good scifi [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]. And, B5 has shown that intriguing high class sf can be done in today's tv. There's no excuse for crap anymore! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/tongue.gif[/img]
------------------
We are one. No matter the blood, no matter the skin, no matter the world, no matter the star. .. We are one.
No matter the pain, no matter the darkness, no matter the loss, no matter the fear. .. We are one.
- Alliance Preamble to the Declaration of Principles, The Paragon of Animals
Webmaster [url="http://www.Sprungtor.de"]www.Sprungtor.de[/url]
[This message has been edited by Language of Hope (edited 05-25-2001).]
Oh please, Crusade wasn't just bad it was real bad. Not even Galen's character could save it. Why? Because the other characters acted similar to him. There was no contrast!
Yea I thought so too, untill I read those two unproduced scripts, then I was hit with revelation like the first time I realized B5 was going to be more than a show about adventures on a space station. The first season of crusade was like the first season of b5, you have to get past it to understand what it was all about.
TheEXone: I agree. When I first watched B5 in its first season I was tempted to dismiss as some kind of ST show on a space station. That feeling felt justified when I watched a couple of the early episodes. But I guess I watched on and became increasingly aware that this was no ordinary show.
It might be the same thing with Crusade. On the basis of my experience with B5 I would give it the benefit of the doubt. I have to say that after watching the first few eps of Crusade I felt they weren't particularly impressive either. Not up to the usual B5 standard. But u have to be objective and judge the show on its own merits, instead of looking at it under the shadow of its predecessor.
After reading those three unproduced scripts (1 by Fiona Avery and 2 by jms) on Bookface.com I was blown away. It was like deja vu, the same thing that had happened with B5.
------------------
[b]Commander[/b] socrates
flightleader, [i]Erinyes[/i]
The Gray Hand of Fate
AnlaShok Blackops
I really think it was hindered by the interference of TNT for the most part.
I wonder how many of you out here liked or disliked a totally unrelated show called Space: Above and Beyond (SAAB for short...)?
That show got a bad rap I think. Towards the last episodes it was getting really good in my opinion...
My two favorite episodes (which just happened to air today on Sci-Fi by the way...) were
1. Sugar Dirt:
The scene where Paul starts eating the sugar fused dirt really hit home in that episode, even more so than the emotions of being left behind to fend for yourself in a desolate place.
2. How the Chigs stole Christmas:
Once again the Paul character shined through, and that last scene with the APC orbiting the comet really came out shweet!
The show WAS hurt by TNT, and I saw a great series coming down the pipe. The Bookface.com scripts were awesome, and hinted at some cool stuff.
The apocalypse box had me curious as well.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
SAAB was a really cool show. It was not that great at first, but it really got moving by the end. How the Chigs stole Christmas was a very good episode, showing the other side of the enemy. It was heart warming.
I think the scene that will always be with me though is the last scene of the last episode, where Tank and the other main character are sitting in their bunkroom, the only survivors of their squadron. Seeing the others die was heart breaking. I have to say that I am ****ing pissed off that we never found out what happened next.
------------------
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
SAAB was a good show with a background story nicely unfolding (in respect to the connection [what was the name of that company]-Chigs-Artificial lifeforms).
It took some time to change my perception of it as a "simple war show" though.
------------------
We are one. No matter the blood, no matter the skin, no matter the world, no matter the star. .. We are one.
No matter the pain, no matter the darkness, no matter the loss, no matter the fear. .. We are one.
- Alliance Preamble to the Declaration of Principles, The Paragon of Animals
Webmaster [url="http://www.Sprungtor.de"]www.Sprungtor.de[/url]
I've heard great things about SAAB and when I read up on the show, it seemed really impressive. It's a pity coz I don't think I'll ever get to see it. It's been off the air too long and the local TV station probably won't buy it. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/frown.gif[/img]
------------------
[b]Commander[/b] socrates
flightleader, [i]Erinyes[/i]
The Gray Hand of Fate
AnlaShok Blackops
SAAB was an incredible show... the last episode was really good... but it pissed me off not knowing what happend to Vansen and Damphouse... or how the war turned out afterwards. I would REALLY like to see a movie or mini-series either wrapping it up a bit more, or answering a few more questions. I thought the Hammerheads and the rest of the ships looked really cool.
My biggest problem with SAAB was its complete lack of scientific accuracy. They had ships flying around like in starwars - banking in space. They completely ignored gravity - not even trying to put agrav units on little ships and then having people stand up in them. Now, I'm not saying that starwars kinds of shows are bad - I love them - but in SAAB's case it would have been easy to fix/explain and they just never bothered. It took me out of the show at times when I needed to stay in the show and just seemed like bad writing.
I thought SAAB did a pretty good job with fizzics (the spelling is a long story [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] ) When the Hammerheads bank, there's little thrusters that bank them, so its not like they're using ailerons... and with the gravity... they didnt say if they used artificial gravity, I think its just an assumed...
Comments
Technobabble in moderation is fine. Technobabble doesn't have to be fictional, either. It's just as the name says: Technological Babble. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] Anyhoo, Babylon 5 uses it, Farscape uses is, Star Wars uses it, and Star Trek uses it. It's just that, as Sam said, Trek uses it in such a way that it is bad. Technobabble can used safely and happily to [i]suppliment[/i] the story, but goes bad when it [i]becomes[/i] the story.
As for prejudging the series:
I almost always take anything with a positive thought. Looking at things with a negative eye only produces a negative, but looking at it with a positive outlook can give you a negative as well as a positive. It's only a slight change in thinking. Because of this, I took a strong liking to farscape, and deep space nine. I also found that being a little less critical and nitpicky of things such as television and movies helps enjoyment, but that's another story
Now, to sort out this st vs b5 thing...
Startrek may have some bad episodes, but on the other hand, what series doesnt? I mean even B5 had bad episodes (TKO). The thing is, Star Trek was designed to be a series of different episodes with a different adventure every week, so that people can start watching any time and not wonder whats going on. B5 on the other hand has very few episodes that could be watched by someone new to the series and they would know what was going on...and I dont think any of them come any later than season 3.
Imagine watching Z'ha'dum as your first ever episode...you would have no idea what was going on.
Startrek and B5 are different, to enjoy Star Trek, all you have to do is sit back and watch. B5 on the other hand, you need to watch every episode in the right order. Thats how their designed to be.
Worf
------------------
"Playing computer and video games doesnt create murderers and terrorists....cancelling computer and video games creates them." -Me-
Join the fight for freedom at [url="http://www.newrepublic.de"]http://www.newrepublic.de[/url] and [url="http://www.isd-imperium.co.uk"]http://www.isd-imperium.co.uk[/url]
I don't know, at the risk of getting [b]Commander Hamblin[/b] ticked off again, I think one reason people aren't as interested in StarTrek these days is there is nothing there that hasn't been done. And there's really no episodes that make you think and let you draw your own conclusions anymore.
Or maybe that's just me.
BTW - [b]bobo[/b]
[i]I think the whole show will be summed up for you in the last episode when Sheridan's duck comes through the jump point.
...sniff...
it still brings tears to my eyes thinking about it.[/i]
Do I dare ask? [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
------------------
[b]Commander Hamblin[/b] has forbidden me to read anything here other than [i]this[/i] thread.
[This message has been edited by CaptainHope (edited 05-23-2001).]
I watch Star Trek episodes like I watch game shows...interesting while their on, but after that, they're out of my mind. Nothing makes me think after it's over.
I often wonder/dream/hypothesize about Babylon 5 episodes (or episodes of other shows that push boundaries) after I watch them.
I thought the duck went with Sinclair, and the Teddy Bear went with Sheridan...
Or am I in hyperspace again?
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
In a long, complex game like Baldur's Gate (or the even more complex sequel), you really have to get into it, find out what's going on, anf enjoy the story, and here we have B5.
on the other hand, we've got something like Quake III, which is VERY similar to what has been done before, but prettier. the good thing is that you can just jump into it and not look back, then get out without a thought, here we have Trek.
of course, there are variations between the two, like System Shock (DS9), and the like.
"Aardvark!"
come on, its the only thing missing from this thread now that the duck reared its head! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
[img]http://www.midwinter.com/b5/Pictures/Misc/starship.gif[/img]
------------------
We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!
Not the duck!!
Anything but the duck!!!
Cherio.
------------------
Catapvltam habeo. Nisi pecvniam omnem mihi dabis, ad capvt tvvm saxvm immane mittam.
Mater tva criceta fvit, et pater tvo redolvit bacarvm sambvcvs.
Take it easy there man. Please not the duck.
Nooooo! Not the duck.
*Scrambles out of the door yelling loud words*
------------------
[url="http://www.dd.chalmers.se/~gu00mama/"]http://www.dd.chalmers.se/~gu00mama/[/url]
[b]It's not just you, Hope...
I watch Star Trek episodes like I watch game shows...interesting while their on, but after that, they're out of my mind. Nothing makes me think after it's over.
I often wonder/dream/hypothesize about Babylon 5 episodes (or episodes of other shows that push boundaries) after I watch them. [/b][/quote]
This is indeed a remarkable thing: a tv show that induces thinking [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]. In fact, I believe that's the core of the feeling I've had about B5: it is interesting to think about it, to speculate and get into the story and watch it develop.
... I do miss B5.
To return to the original discussion. Cdr Hamblin does address some possible hazards. But: We're talking about JMS. I am far from seeing him as unfailing but what reason should he have to bust "his universe"? He always said "it's a big universe to play with", and I doubt that we ever see him fail to tell at least an interesting and new story.
Of course, there might not be story elements as "big" as the Firstones/Vorlon-Shadow conflict but B5:LR is not intended to be a drama like B5 but an "adventure with dramatic elements". Let's see.
------------------
We are one. No matter the blood, no matter the skin, no matter the world, no matter the star. .. We are one.
No matter the pain, no matter the darkness, no matter the loss, no matter the fear. .. We are one.
- Alliance Preamble to the Declaration of Principles, The Paragon of Animals
Webmaster [url="http://www.Sprungtor.de"]www.Sprungtor.de[/url]
[b]Maybe that's the thing WORF. Maybe we have been spoiled by shows like B5 and others that have long interesting arcs. [...][/b][/quote]
Spoiled? [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
I have no problem when someone calls me choosy because B5 has changed my perception of tv scifi. I have certainly become more critical but that doesn't mean less fun -- it's just that I have more time for good scifi [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]. And, B5 has shown that intriguing high class sf can be done in today's tv. There's no excuse for crap anymore! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/tongue.gif[/img]
------------------
We are one. No matter the blood, no matter the skin, no matter the world, no matter the star. .. We are one.
No matter the pain, no matter the darkness, no matter the loss, no matter the fear. .. We are one.
- Alliance Preamble to the Declaration of Principles, The Paragon of Animals
Webmaster [url="http://www.Sprungtor.de"]www.Sprungtor.de[/url]
[This message has been edited by Language of Hope (edited 05-25-2001).]
Of course it's [i]Sinclair's[/i] duck! Never try posting on-the-job while doing your real work!
{Homer Simpson voice and drool mode on}
[i]Ivanova's tot's....aaaaahhh[/i]
{Homer Simpson voice and drool mode off}
It might be the same thing with Crusade. On the basis of my experience with B5 I would give it the benefit of the doubt. I have to say that after watching the first few eps of Crusade I felt they weren't particularly impressive either. Not up to the usual B5 standard. But u have to be objective and judge the show on its own merits, instead of looking at it under the shadow of its predecessor.
After reading those three unproduced scripts (1 by Fiona Avery and 2 by jms) on Bookface.com I was blown away. It was like deja vu, the same thing that had happened with B5.
------------------
[b]Commander[/b] socrates
flightleader, [i]Erinyes[/i]
The Gray Hand of Fate
AnlaShok Blackops
"Do [b]NOT[/b] interfere."
[b]I think the duck is cute. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img][/b][/quote]
ladies (I think there are probably at least 2 reading this) and gentleman, the duck, has just been called cute.
I think this can constitute an emergency situation.
I am going to go hide [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
And she's right. It [i]is[/i] cute.
I really think it was hindered by the interference of TNT for the most part.
I wonder how many of you out here liked or disliked a totally unrelated show called Space: Above and Beyond (SAAB for short...)?
That show got a bad rap I think. Towards the last episodes it was getting really good in my opinion...
My two favorite episodes (which just happened to air today on Sci-Fi by the way...) were
1. Sugar Dirt:
The scene where Paul starts eating the sugar fused dirt really hit home in that episode, even more so than the emotions of being left behind to fend for yourself in a desolate place.
2. How the Chigs stole Christmas:
Once again the Paul character shined through, and that last scene with the APC orbiting the comet really came out shweet!
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
Ah, WTH it was a cool series...
------------------
[url="http://www.dd.chalmers.se/~gu00mama/"]http://www.dd.chalmers.se/~gu00mama/[/url]
Vir - Are you saying you don't trust me anymore? I made your favourite, Spoo.
Londo - I'll order in.
The show WAS hurt by TNT, and I saw a great series coming down the pipe. The Bookface.com scripts were awesome, and hinted at some cool stuff.
The apocalypse box had me curious as well.
I think the scene that will always be with me though is the last scene of the last episode, where Tank and the other main character are sitting in their bunkroom, the only survivors of their squadron. Seeing the others die was heart breaking. I have to say that I am ****ing pissed off that we never found out what happened next.
------------------
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
It took some time to change my perception of it as a "simple war show" though.
------------------
We are one. No matter the blood, no matter the skin, no matter the world, no matter the star. .. We are one.
No matter the pain, no matter the darkness, no matter the loss, no matter the fear. .. We are one.
- Alliance Preamble to the Declaration of Principles, The Paragon of Animals
Webmaster [url="http://www.Sprungtor.de"]www.Sprungtor.de[/url]
------------------
[b]Commander[/b] socrates
flightleader, [i]Erinyes[/i]
The Gray Hand of Fate
AnlaShok Blackops
"Do [b]NOT[/b] interfere."