The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. The past of Star Trek has shown us that they haven't done long, complex story arcs. There are rucurring themes and major supporting characters, but by and large, the ST series is episodic. Is it possible that they'll do a complex story arc? Yeah, but it ain't likely.
Unfortunately you tend to go stale with a limited pool of talent. ST hasn't really been fresh since TOS, and even then some of the episodes were repetetive.
The thing to remember about commercial television is that the shows are used to draw people into the commercials. It's all about selling product. So if you're going to create a spin-off series then you're going to go with what worked in the past. It costs way too much money to be original today.
The difference with something like B5 and someone like JMS is that he was a writer first, and had fleshed out the arc long before the series began. He was also creating something fresh and different. Being the creator, he had a firm idea of where he wanted to go. He also wrote a majority of the episodes that dealt with the arc. Freelancers came in to do some of the non-arc episodes. Also with B5, if you remember back when it first came out was the problem with commericals. It was always in danger of being cancelled. Moving to someplace like SciFi channel is probably the best thing that could have happened to it. It's targeted to its niche audience.
There's been a constant issue within the WGA about allowing more freelancers to write television series scripts. The staff writers say no, the freelancers say yes.
As an addendum, William Goldman has some interesting comments on sequals in his book, "Which Lie Did I Tell?" Remind me to tell you about them sometime.
I tend to babble, and if I did so, then forgive me. Writing is something I am passionate about. But I hope I got my point across.
I'm inclined to agree with u Knave. You make a very good point. I think ST lacks someone like jms, who is able to shape the B5 universe properly. The product is a coherent, stable and realistic universe, becoz it's well thought out by one person rather than letting a whole platoon of different writers with perhaps radically contrasting ideas and notions have a go at it. And ST has always been episodic rather than having a complex story arc. It would appear that the future series would follow this trend.
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[b]Commander[/b] socrates
flightleader, [i]Erinyes[/i]
The Gray Hand of Fate
AnlaShok Blackops
Did you see the list of writers on the credits? There were something like 8 or 10. Writing by committee (not to be confused with collaboration) does not generally lend itself to powerful vision. There may be exceptions, but they are few and far between.[/b][/quote]
Committees are not generally associated with quality [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] (Yes, another boring poke at the committees we all know and love)
I liked the episode just fine and was happy with the suspense at the end. Oh..for those of you who gave up early you missed that part..sorry :P I didn't have any problems following the storyline and nothing at all raised any questions really. I taped it in case it did and watched a second time and by that time I think I've figured out the answers to most of my questions. My main regret was the very end...wish they had reserved more episode time for the return to Earth but overall I thought it was a very good episode.
yeah, I wish they'd left a little bit at the end, instead they just leave it off with a big escort home (and did I spy a Defiant class ship in there, I though there was just the one, and that went down near the end of DS9 ?)
The second [i]Defiant[/i] was originaly the [i]U.S.S. Sao Paulo[/i] (well, technichly third, but don't get me started on that). The first time we saw another [i]Defiant[/i]-Class ship was at the end of [i]Call to Arms[/i], when the [i]Defiant[/i] and Martok's Bird of Prey join up with the Federation fleet. We also saw the [i]U.S.S. Valiant[/i], which was crewed by cadets after the senior officers were killed. We also saw two in [i]Message in a Bottle[/i] (VOY) when the Federation tried to get back the [i]Promeathous[/i] (probibly wasn't the original one in [i]Endgame[/i], the [i]Defiant[/i] proved the usefulness of having a warship with exploration capability, not the other way around as things had been for 200 years). For much of the Dominion War, you could see them in battle. Finaly, the former [i]Sao Paulo[/i] was givein a cloaking device by the Romulans, same as the first [i]Defiant[/i], both as a matter of tradition, and that if the Dominion decided to start another war, the cloak was a vitle edge.
wow, somebody knows their trek. Actually dominion ships saw right through the cloak of the first defiant, and romulans were not able to defeat breen energy jammer spammer whatever
Only when they were expressly looking for it, and only casualy when it was running at full power under cloak. Which they didn't do after that little incident the first time it went to the Gamma Quadrent.
I have to say that overall, Voyager's series finale was far better than DS9's was, but paled in comparison to TNG's 'All Good Things'.
With All Good Things, Paramount finished off the legacy Q started with the Encounter at Farpoint episode, the judgement of humanity, and also threw at us some fun paradoxes to boggle over. DS9, surprisingly, actually had a very weak story arc, if I recall correctly, that started in Season 2 with that homeless alien race from the Gamma Quadrant that thought Bajor was their destined home. In it, they made mentions of the Dominion that had run them off their old homeworld or something. What got me pissed about DS9's ending was the whole immaculate conception crap they weaved up for Sisko, despite it an ironic ending for him and his status as Emissary. Also, that fight with Dukat at the end was just so phony I nearly died laughing.
As for Voyager's ending, it had a bit more action, we saw a side of J a n e w a y we never thought we'd ever see: a cynical, screw-the-prime-directive, old bitch, whose only purpose was to get that crew home. What I want to know is why wasn't she the captain for the last 7 years? had she been, Voyager woulda been at most a made-for-tv 2 hour movie, or a mini-series. Instead, with the self-righteous J a n e w a y we all know and hate, we got a storyline that was dragged out for 7 years. All in all tho, it's over, with lots of questions left unanswered, like what is the federation going to do with the new Armor and torpedo technology? The klingons and romulans will have a fit over it all. And what about 7 of 9?...if I were a federation scientist, I'd want to scan and test the hell out of her to learn anything new about the Borg. I smell a possible movie to wrap everything up, because the rumors are persistent that ST:X will be the last TNG based ST Movie, and DS9 was obviously ended in a way that it won't need a movie.
As for Enterprise, it could be good, it could be bad. I heard that part of Bakula's requirements for working on the show is that he gets a measurable chunk of creative control, supposedly the same of what he got when he did Quantum Leap. This in itself could make for a good series, as he could get to screen whatever mess the writers come up with and hopefully screen out stuff that'll further sink the Trek Franchise. Look on the brightside though, at least we'll get to see ships made out of shampoo bottles again (Daedelus Class) :P
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Kill -9'em all and let root@localhost sort'em out!
[This message has been edited by Kumba (edited 05-29-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Kumba (edited 05-29-2001).]
[quote]Originally posted by Kumba:
[b]Kill -9'em all and let root@localhost sort'em out!
[/b][/quote]
That is the best sig I've seen in a long time...LMAO for 5 minutes [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
As for Voyager: It needed at least another 1/2 hour to resolve the "homecoming". The end just felt weak.
I felt like i got ripped off, and, had I paidfor the movie, I probably would have asked the manager for a refund, or a free pass to "Evolution" [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
- Rick
------------------
[i]"...In the end it would hold because what is built endures. And what is loved endures.
And Babylon 5...Babylon 5 endures."[/i] -- Delenn in the Babylon 5 episode [i]Rising Star[/i]
I didn't think the last episode was that bad... in fact, I liked it. Rick is right though... (what am I saying? of course Rick is right [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] ) I did feel ripped off when it ended, they needed to cover the homecoming and a little bit after it.
[This message has been edited by Canuck (edited 05-29-2001).]
For a Voyager episode, I think it was one of their better ones. Of course, that's not really saying much...
I didn't think the plot was hard to follow at all...it just didn't make much sense...and I really didn't need to see 30 minutes of J a n e w a y arguing with an old Klingon.
Comments
The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. The past of Star Trek has shown us that they haven't done long, complex story arcs. There are rucurring themes and major supporting characters, but by and large, the ST series is episodic. Is it possible that they'll do a complex story arc? Yeah, but it ain't likely.
Unfortunately you tend to go stale with a limited pool of talent. ST hasn't really been fresh since TOS, and even then some of the episodes were repetetive.
The thing to remember about commercial television is that the shows are used to draw people into the commercials. It's all about selling product. So if you're going to create a spin-off series then you're going to go with what worked in the past. It costs way too much money to be original today.
The difference with something like B5 and someone like JMS is that he was a writer first, and had fleshed out the arc long before the series began. He was also creating something fresh and different. Being the creator, he had a firm idea of where he wanted to go. He also wrote a majority of the episodes that dealt with the arc. Freelancers came in to do some of the non-arc episodes. Also with B5, if you remember back when it first came out was the problem with commericals. It was always in danger of being cancelled. Moving to someplace like SciFi channel is probably the best thing that could have happened to it. It's targeted to its niche audience.
There's been a constant issue within the WGA about allowing more freelancers to write television series scripts. The staff writers say no, the freelancers say yes.
As an addendum, William Goldman has some interesting comments on sequals in his book, "Which Lie Did I Tell?" Remind me to tell you about them sometime.
I tend to babble, and if I did so, then forgive me. Writing is something I am passionate about. But I hope I got my point across.
------------------
[b]Commander[/b] socrates
flightleader, [i]Erinyes[/i]
The Gray Hand of Fate
AnlaShok Blackops
"Do [b]NOT[/b] interfere."
[b]Sanfam,
Did you see the list of writers on the credits? There were something like 8 or 10. Writing by committee (not to be confused with collaboration) does not generally lend itself to powerful vision. There may be exceptions, but they are few and far between.[/b][/quote]
Committees are not generally associated with quality [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] (Yes, another boring poke at the committees we all know and love)
Rendar
Defiant lost to breen [speaks highly of federation ship toughness to lose to meat balls]
Valiant a replacement for defiant sisko got
2 more were shown in the episode of voyager; the one with prometheus
With All Good Things, Paramount finished off the legacy Q started with the Encounter at Farpoint episode, the judgement of humanity, and also threw at us some fun paradoxes to boggle over. DS9, surprisingly, actually had a very weak story arc, if I recall correctly, that started in Season 2 with that homeless alien race from the Gamma Quadrant that thought Bajor was their destined home. In it, they made mentions of the Dominion that had run them off their old homeworld or something. What got me pissed about DS9's ending was the whole immaculate conception crap they weaved up for Sisko, despite it an ironic ending for him and his status as Emissary. Also, that fight with Dukat at the end was just so phony I nearly died laughing.
As for Voyager's ending, it had a bit more action, we saw a side of J a n e w a y we never thought we'd ever see: a cynical, screw-the-prime-directive, old bitch, whose only purpose was to get that crew home. What I want to know is why wasn't she the captain for the last 7 years? had she been, Voyager woulda been at most a made-for-tv 2 hour movie, or a mini-series. Instead, with the self-righteous J a n e w a y we all know and hate, we got a storyline that was dragged out for 7 years. All in all tho, it's over, with lots of questions left unanswered, like what is the federation going to do with the new Armor and torpedo technology? The klingons and romulans will have a fit over it all. And what about 7 of 9?...if I were a federation scientist, I'd want to scan and test the hell out of her to learn anything new about the Borg. I smell a possible movie to wrap everything up, because the rumors are persistent that ST:X will be the last TNG based ST Movie, and DS9 was obviously ended in a way that it won't need a movie.
As for Enterprise, it could be good, it could be bad. I heard that part of Bakula's requirements for working on the show is that he gets a measurable chunk of creative control, supposedly the same of what he got when he did Quantum Leap. This in itself could make for a good series, as he could get to screen whatever mess the writers come up with and hopefully screen out stuff that'll further sink the Trek Franchise. Look on the brightside though, at least we'll get to see ships made out of shampoo bottles again (Daedelus Class) :P
------------------
Kill -9'em all and let root@localhost sort'em out!
[This message has been edited by Kumba (edited 05-29-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Kumba (edited 05-29-2001).]
[b]Kill -9'em all and let root@localhost sort'em out!
[/b][/quote]
That is the best sig I've seen in a long time...LMAO for 5 minutes [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
As for Voyager: It needed at least another 1/2 hour to resolve the "homecoming". The end just felt weak.
I felt like i got ripped off, and, had I paidfor the movie, I probably would have asked the manager for a refund, or a free pass to "Evolution" [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
- Rick
------------------
[i]"...In the end it would hold because what is built endures. And what is loved endures.
And Babylon 5...Babylon 5 endures."[/i] -- Delenn in the Babylon 5 episode [i]Rising Star[/i]
[This message has been edited by Canuck (edited 05-29-2001).]
I didn't think the plot was hard to follow at all...it just didn't make much sense...and I really didn't need to see 30 minutes of J a n e w a y arguing with an old Klingon.