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Question about The Shadows
seems like Lorien and the Vorlons became so advanced so they became pure energy... so did future humans and minbari.....
so.... are the shadows in a physical body because they chose it or cuz they didn't evolve to it?
and there's a part on season2 when Delenn and Kosh explains Sheridan about the shadows to release Morden... and there's a close-up on a shadow face, on zhadum... and on the ... hmm.. holes in the face suddenly there are some lights.. well u know what i mean it;s the one on season 3 intro....
what do you say?
so.... are the shadows in a physical body because they chose it or cuz they didn't evolve to it?
and there's a part on season2 when Delenn and Kosh explains Sheridan about the shadows to release Morden... and there's a close-up on a shadow face, on zhadum... and on the ... hmm.. holes in the face suddenly there are some lights.. well u know what i mean it;s the one on season 3 intro....
what do you say?
Comments
SPOILER IF YOU'VE NEVER SEEN B5!!! xD
--why Morden has those invisible Shadows around him every time he's on Babylon 5. They're there, they look exactly like the 'encounter suits' that Biggles suggested and they're invisible. Just as well: The Season 3 intro shows a Shadow creature on Za'Ha'Dum; why use an encounter suit on your own planet? Or was it Mars? Can't remember.
END OF SPOILER xD xD xD
Perhaps the Shadows :shadow1: are some sort of hybrid....
Maybe they chose that way to look becuase it is more freaky :)
After all, think back on [i]The Gathering[/i]... how could you chemically poison a being of pure energy?
That has always bothered me.
[B]I don't think the Shadows use encounter suits. I'm guessing that they are beings of energy themselves, but with the ability to project the 'old' image of themselves into some sort of physical manifestation.[/B][/QUOTE]
But if those were just "projections" how they could be killed?
In that episode where Vorlons were aproaching Centauri Prime with their Planet killer, Londo had Morden executed, but before it they had to kill those Shadows which were always with Morden.
(Do I remember right, it has been few years from that when this episode came on tv?)
[B]Actually, I'm not at all convinced that the Vorlons are purely beings of energy. I think they [i]do[/i] have a corporeal form, and they probably have to be in that form most of the time, and only have the ability to [i]change[/i] into energy forms for a limited period of time. This seems consistent with Deconstruction, where the evolved human spent most of the ep in a corporeal form, and then turned into a ball of energy when he needed to jump into the encounter suit.
After all, think back on [i]The Gathering[/i]... how could you chemically poison a being of pure energy? [/B][/QUOTE]
Thats easy, Kosh was never really poisoned. it was all a setup by the Vorlons...
Personally i think that vorlons really look like small cocktail onions, but thats just me....
[B]Thats easy, Kosh was never really poisoned. it was all a setup by the Vorlons...[/B][/QUOTE]
I don't buy it. You'd have to simulate a corporeal body for Dr. Kyle to work on, complex and complete enough for him to take samples for analysis. On top of that, what if Kyle were to act in such a way that Kosh should, if corporeal, die? Would he then give up the act and reveal himself for what he really is, or would he pretend to die, thus leaving absolutely no logical reason (from the humans' point of view) for the Vorlons not to attack?
The only way any of this works is if Kosh (and, by extension, all Vorlons) has a corporeal "resting" form that he must return to from time to time, which he probably has to use most of the time.
Same goes for the Shadows. What we see as their shape has to be their actual form, corporeal, and susceptible to gunfire and other material events.
We have conversations like this because JMS went to the trouble of creating a universe that is amazingly coherent, especially given that it's a TV show we're talking about here. The idea that everything can add up is what makes it fun to explore these possibilities.
I find it odd how those shadows could move around B5 undetected if they were simply invisible. In one scene Morden is in Zocalo with Londo and you hear this shadow 'chirp' sound indicating they are whispering something to Morden. Yet the area is pretty crowded - you'd think they'd keep bumping into people. :)
Perhaps they can phase in and out of normal space bit like shadow vessels... Or perhaps they are energy, but are still vulnerable to the kind of energy weapons the centauri use?
We do know they can phase like their vessels, I think.
"The Shadows are the Oldest of these races"
Delenn said that when speaking of the firstones. Obviously she didn't know about Lorien at the time. But she had had contact with Vorlons before, so lets assume that, in order.
Loriens race, Shadows, Vorlons.
After the battle of Coriana 6, Lorien turned himself into an energy being and quite literally left the building. Whow eh? Never saw a vorlon do THAT before...but wait, we have seen the shadows do something simuler with there cool fase in effect.
I contend that while it is simuler to the shadow SHIP phase in effect, it is in fact a being of energy turning into a physical form. Why? well...shadows are pretty big with their legs and stuff. they would have trouble fitting through most of B5's doorways, including the one to Mordons cell. Also, people would be bumping into them ALOT if they were mearly cloaked.
weather the vorlons lack this ability is unknown, but the older firstones seem to have it, based on Lorien and the Shadows.
Not really the same thing.
The Shadows are able to move between space and hyperspace. That's not the same thing as being able to change matter into energy.
did you notice that the actor that played Lorien actually played 4 other charcters in b5? I saw a small part of the episode when he plays sebastian and after seeing lorien, it looked like he was the same actor, so i searched for him, but the other charcters such as drazi and drakh were really a surprise, what a few makeup sets could do :)
[B]I could buy the energy-shadows explanation if it weren't for the scene where Londo had the shadows shot.
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Perhaps they can phase in and out of normal space bit like shadow vessels... Or perhaps they are energy, but are still vulnerable to the kind of energy weapons the centauri use? [/B][/QUOTE]
Why couldnt both cases be right? they [I]can[/I] exist as energy and they [I]can[/I] exist as coporial entities. i mean, even if they were existing as energy when Londo had the ones next to morden shot, why wouldnt a sudden influx of energy into them be enough to kill/destabilise them?
[B]also crystals can disrupt energy. That could have been used to poison kosh. But I do think it was a setup. Wouldn't valen have told the vorlons what would happen? [/B][/QUOTE]
He probably tried, but the Vorlons wouldn't let him. They had stopped Valen from warning Delenn and Dukhat about the Earth/Minbari War, once.
Lorien could change from matter to energy at will. The humans in the future have the same ability.
The Vorlons seem to exist somewhere between matter and energy.
The physical part of them is subject to poison (The Gathering) and PPG-fire (Falling Toward Apotheosis). Sure, it was Lorien and the remaining part of Kosh who killed Kosh2, but the PPGs did certainly hurt him.
There's no indication that they can change between matter and energy. Appearing as angle is not actually a change, it's a telepathic projection.
After rescuing Seriadan Kosh sayed that it was difficult beeing seen by so many people at the same time (A Fall of Night). If it was a change of form, this wouldn't matter. There might be limits to how long he can do it, but the number of people seeing him wouldn't make a difference.
The Shadows are difficult.
They seem to be matter, or maybe also a state between mater and energy.
The most interesting thing about them is the ability to turn invisible.
It does?n not transport them to hyperspace. They only become invisible.
With cameras adjusted to a different spectrum they can still be seen (In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum).
As Indie mentioned, it's surprising that nobody bumps into them when they are with mordan in a crowded area. I don't know how they do that, but they surely can't pass through solid matter. When they Killed kosh, Mordan had to open the door for them (Interludes and Examinations) and they are vulnerable to PPGs while invisible (Into The Fire).
Maybe it's some subconscious telepathic command that makes people walk around them - I don't know, but they are certainly physically 'there'.
Just adding fuel to the fires.