[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]I shouldn't have to face what LogicSequence said. (BTW, my post was directed at Logic Sequence) [/B][/QUOTE]
I can sympathise with you mate.
I consider myself "conservative", and I was offended by LogicSequence saying in no uncertain terms that conservatism, a belief system that defines who I am personally and in relation to my place in society, "makes him sick".
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Tis why I won't become a barber. ;)
Just as Croxis shoulden't have to face what I just spewed out, I shouldn't have to face what LogicSequence said.[/B][/QUOTE]
Is this or is this [i]not[/i] the internet? If we keep up with the rational discussions and admitted falacies, it may ruin the very fabric of space and time!!!
:D
That being said, I'd like to address a few of the topics. None are pointed at specific individuals, just quoted for reference.
[quote]
Matt said:
They see the same problem I do... if you ban one type or reason for abortion, what's next?
[/quote]
That reasoning is slightly faulted. Consider "If you ban one type of pharmaceutical, what's next?", or "If you keep one type of vehicle from the road, what's next?"
As a society, we constently decide where limts are placed between what is acceptable and what is not. Fearing our future decisions, or the decisions of future generations, is not reason to not make the judgement.
[quote]
Matt also said:
A gay couple has no legal rights, and this DOES become important; just look at things like taxes, emergencies, death... would a hospital refuse a gay man from seeing his dying partner because they aren't married or family? No, there needs to be some legal acknowledge of the union.
[/quote]
I think your coming close to the crux of the matter: money. Most advocates are seeking the legalization of same-sex marriages for the financial implications, such as employer-sponsored health benefits, tax-deductions, etc. Changing the rules that insurance rates are based on will be a costly action, for the insurance corporations first, but then for us as customers.
A minority of same-sex marriage advocates are apparently not as interested in the financial matters. They just want the same respect in their communities as traditional married couples, and recognition that their union is just as valid. However, you [b]cannot[/b] legislate acceptance or good-will. Attempts in the past have normally resulted in the opposite affect.
[quote]
[i]David of Mac said:[/i]
I'm sorry, but I can't agree. I don't think that people should be limited by how and who they can love based on which of them has dangly bits between their legs. It strikes me as being akin to saying that a man and a woman can't enjoy a platonic relationship because God intended for man and woman to be together in Holy Matrimony and only holy matrimony.
[/quote]
I realize your exagerating, but the former is [i]not[/i] akin to the latter since I know of no religion that permits [i]only[/i] married relations between men and women. The issue is not love, for if it was, then why aren't marital relationships between people and animals recognized? Or adults and minors? Legal marriage is not a recognition of love. It is a recognition of responsibilities and privileges that are to be shared by a man and a women.
[quote]
[i]Bekenn stated:[/i]
Rape and incest are less clear-cut for me. In the case of incest, I'd have to say that if the act of conception was consensual, then the parents need to take responsibility for the life they've created. For rape... that's a tough one. For the sake of compromise with those who disagree with me, I suppose I'd allow abortions in that case.
[/quote]
Consider the anti-abortion/pro-life position which has the viewpoint that life begins at conception: if a woman makes a mistake, or is violated, why is a punishment exacted on an innocent life? If you make the assumption that a fetus is not alive, then the question is meaningless. However, in the absence of evidence beyond a resonable doubt, which is the more humane approach?
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by bobo [/i]
[B]Excuse me?!?
[SIZE=3]Excuse me?!?![/SIZE]
Is this or is this [i]not[/i] the internet? If we keep up with the rational discussions and admitted falacies, it may ruin the very fabric of space and time!!!
:D[/B][/QUOTE]
You know as well as any of us that firstones ripped up the fabric of space and time in its little part of the net long ago. :)
[QUOTE][i]bobo said:[/i]
That reasoning is slightly faulted. Consider "If you ban one type of pharmaceutical, what's next?", or "If you keep one type of vehicle from the road, what's next?"
As a society, we constently decide where limts are placed between what is acceptable and what is not. Fearing our future decisions, or the decisions of future generations, is not reason to not make the judgement.
[/QUOTE]
This is correct, the slippery slope argument does have faults. However, it's also shown to be true in many cases. You do see it though, especially in the U.S. war on drugs. "Opiates are dangerous, let's ban them all, even something as relatively harmless as codeine." -- both of which are over the counter in most other countries including Canada and England. This does harm people, me for example right now, who has been sick with nasty bronchitis for a while. I'd love to run down to the pharmacy and grab a bottle of codeine so I could stop coughing.
As for cars, how should people react if one day the NHTSA decides that all cars over...say... 350 horsepower are banned. No one needs that much power, right? It just contributes to speeding and fatal accidents. What happens 5 years later when it's 250... and another 5 years later when it's 200... etc. I'll admit that argument can be faulty in some cases, but it often holds true.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Biggles [/i]
[B]You know as well as any of us that firstones ripped up the fabric of space and time in its little part of the net long ago. :) [/B][/QUOTE]
well damn, forget a thread for a week or so and look where it goes... it took me 15 min to sift thru all this stuff. and since i didn't want to spend 5 hours carefully writing down a response for everything that was said, i'll keep this in somewhat general terms.
First: A2597... i scare u? fine, but you're the type of person that truely scares me.
now, gay marraige. first of all, i should say i have quite a few gay friends and several in particular have been my best friends for the better part of a decade. and anybody who wants to argue that gay people are wrong or sinful or sick... is disgusting to me... how much hate is directed to gay people appauls me and makes me sick to my stomach. and i've seen it first hand. i've seen friends taunted, teased, and harrased b/c they are gay. and i've seen them beaten, hit, and one put in the hospital and in a coma b/c of it.
people like u, a2597 breed hate and violence b/c you fear something u don't understand. u've never bothered to try and understand people who are gay. you've been told all your life that your (mistical magical invisible) god deemed homosexuality bad (which is not exactly true, u can quote the bible all you want but there are 1000 interpretations for the scriptures u right wing people use to condem homosexuality). and b/c u've been fed this all of your life you accept it without question and never bother to try to understand.. homosexuality is no more wrong that heterosexuality. and any "GOD" that says it's wrong isn't a god at all. u know why? b/c if "god" created all than he created people who are gay. so why create something u dislike? First off, i don't beleive in god period, but if i did, i would never beleive he would dislike people who are gay, black, white, overweight, purple, sick, old, or anything u can think of.
People who are gay should have the same rights everyone else done... WHY SHOULDN'T THEY??? they pay taxes, they'e people, they fall in love, they have fights, the have friends, etc.. etc.. why can't they have the right to marry whom they love? that's like saying b/c someone is black they shouldn't have the right to marry. and you say gays should keep it to themselves.. WHY? why do they have to when straight people don't? HMMM? b/c it's unpopular? why should a people who are treated as second class citizens just accept that and not fight for the right to be treated as human beings? Now you say gays have other options available to u.. so? why should they be denied marraige? well a2597.. what if i said to you, b/c your name is whatever.. u can't marry.. but u have "Other options available". how would that make you feel? why shouldn't u be able to marry b/c of who you are? Now i could go on and on and on, and i'm sure i will b/c i'm sure u'll come back with some line about god or something.... (which is another think that annoys me, stop using god as an excuse...)
Now, as to god... i think i've made my PERSONAL beleifs clear in other threads. I don't beleive in god. why? cause i don't beleive in something that i'm TOLD to beleive with the reason being "just because". there is and never has been any proof of the existance of god. u cannot prove that god exists. I'm sure many of you have seen the movie "Contact" and i think a line in that move puts it best. "have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? It says that all things been equal, the simplest explanations is most often the correct one. Now which is simplest, most beleivable? that an all-knowing all powerful being created every single thing in existance with a single thought, inspired people's actions, commited great magical happings on earth, and left absolutely no evidence whatsoever of his existance. Or is it more simple an explanation that people invented him, in they're minds. to explain what they don't understand, and so they wouldn't have to feel so alone." above all else in life, i like the character in contact, am a scientist. i beleive in fact, and evidence. there is no god b/c i see no evidence of it.. i do however see an abundance of evidence to support the latter part of that quote.
People need to stop using god as an explanation or reason for things. you have to realize that not everyone beleives in the SAME god as you, or that there even IS a god.. and u are no more right than they are. you cannot apply your beleif system to other people's actions b/c they may operate on another beleif system. if you want to disagree with something, you must use terms common to you and the other party. (and be4 u go thumping the bible at me saying that proves anything... the bible was supposedly written under god's influence.. well if u're trying to prove the existance of god, the bible becomes null and void, b/c it was supposedly created by him.. that like trying to define a word by using that word in the definition.)
Abortion... i am pro choice, in case you hadn't guessed. untill they day that fetus is born, it is PART of the mothers body, and i beleive that mother has every right to say she does not want this to be a part of her any more. unfortunately that means the only option is abortion (perhaps in the future, removing and transplanting a fetus will be possible). and as that is the only course, then she should have the right to do that BECAUSE that fetus IS A PART OF HER BODY AT THAT TIME. now once it is born, that's another story. if your go to a jungle region and get bitten by a parasite that deposits a larva in you. and when you return home, u realize, OMG i have this THING growing under my skin... don't u have a right to remove it? and be4 u say it's not the same thing, i beg to differ, it is. it's an entity of some sort. it's attached to your body, you don't want it there, you should have every right to have it removed.
now as to the comparision i made to bush and clarke.. i don't think it's melodramatic at all. i think it's realist. i think conservatives fail to see the big picture, and get caught up with what's RIGHT NOW and give no thought to what's more important.. the long term, the future. i think conservatives are afraid of what they don't understand, and instead of trying to learn about it, they want to keep everyone at status quo, or even to regress so they don't have to face what they are uncomfortable with, what they don't understand. and not to allow things to come.
and i stand by my statement, conservatives SCARE ME.. when i think of living in the world conservatives want, i find myself thinking i'd rather die. the united states was founded with the intentions of growing and accepting what comes with the future.. it's time we embrace that instead of fighting it... i think if our founding fathers were here today, they'd ask what we have done with the system they created? why we've failed to take advantage of a system that allows us to update it with new ideas, new times, and new feelings.
and as i have forgotten what else was discussed, i suppose i will just have to respond to whatever comes next. and i'm sure i haven't helped calm things down... but hey, that's nothing new for me :well damn, forget a thread for a week or so and look where it goes... it took me 15 min to sift thru all this stuff. and since i didn't want to spend 5 hours carefully writing down a response for everything that was said, i'll keep this in somewhat general terms.
First: A2597... i scare u? fine, but you're the type of person that truely scares me.
now, gay marraige. first of all, i should say i have quite a few gay friends and several in particular have been my best friends for the better part of a decade. and anybody who wants to argue that gay people are wrong or sinful or sick... is disgusting to me... how much hate is directed to gay people appauls me and makes me sick to my stomach. and i've seen it first hand. i've seen friends taunted, teased, and harrased b/c they are gay. and i've seen them beaten, hit, and one put in the hospital and in a coma b/c of it.
people like u, a2597 breed hate and violence b/c you fear something u don't understand. u've never bothered to try and understand people who are gay. you've been told all your life that your (mistical magical invisible) god deemed homosexuality bad (which is not exactly true, u can quote the bible all you want but there are 1000 interpretations for the scriptures u right wing people use to condem homosexuality). and b/c u've been fed this all of your life you accept it without question and never bother to try to understand.. homosexuality is no more wrong that heterosexuality. and any "GOD" that says it's wrong isn't a god at all. u know why? b/c if "god" created all than he created people who are gay. so why create something u dislike? First off, i don't beleive in god period, but if i did, i would never beleive he would dislike people who are gay, black, white, overweight, purple, sick, old, or anything u can think of.
People who are gay should have the same rights everyone else done... WHY SHOULDN'T THEY??? they pay taxes, they'e people, they fall in love, they have fights, the have friends, etc.. etc.. why can't they have the right to marry whom they love? that's like saying b/c someone is black they shouldn't have the right to marry. and you say gays should keep it to themselves.. WHY? why do they have to when straight people don't? HMMM? b/c it's unpopular? why should a people who are treated as second class citizens just accept that and not fight for the right to be treated as human beings? Now you say gays have other options available to u.. so? why should they be denied marraige? well a2597.. what if i said to you, b/c your name is whatever.. u can't marry.. but u have "Other options available". how would that make you feel? why shouldn't u be able to marry b/c of who you are? Now i could go on and on and on, and i'm sure i will b/c i'm sure u'll come back with some line about god or something.... (which is another think that annoys me, stop using god as an excuse...)
Now, as to god... i think i've made my PERSONAL beleifs clear in other threads. I don't beleive in god. why? cause i don't beleive in something that i'm TOLD to beleive with the reason being "just because". there is and never has been any proof of the existance of god. u cannot prove that god exists. I'm sure many of you have seen the movie "Contact" and i think a line in that move puts it best. "have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? It says that all things been equal, the simplest explanations is most often the correct one. Now which is simplest, most beleivable? that an all-knowing all powerful being created every single thing in existance with a single thought, inspired people's actions, commited great magical happings on earth, and left absolutely no evidence whatsoever of his existance. Or is it more simple an explanation that people invented him, in they're minds. to explain what they don't understand, and so they wouldn't have to feel so alone." above all else in life, i like the character in contact, am a scientist. i beleive in fact, and evidence. there is no god b/c i see no evidence of it.. i do however see an abundance of evidence to support the latter part of that quote.
People need to stop using god as an explanation or reason for things. you have to realize that not everyone beleives in the SAME god as you, or that there even IS a god.. and u are no more right than they are. you cannot apply your beleif system to other people's actions b/c they may operate on another beleif system. if you want to disagree with something, you must use terms common to you and the other party. (and be4 u go thumping the bible at me saying that proves anything... the bible was supposedly written under god's influence.. well if u're trying to prove the existance of god, the bible becomes null and void, b/c it was supposedly created by him.. that like trying to define a word by using that word in the definition.)
Abortion... i am pro choice, in case you hadn't guessed. untill they day that fetus is born, it is PART of the mothers body, and i beleive that mother has every right to say she does not want this to be a part of her any more. unfortunately that means the only option is abortion (perhaps in the future, removing and transplanting a fetus will be possible). and as that is the only course, then she should have the right to do that BECAUSE that fetus IS A PART OF HER BODY AT THAT TIME. now once it is born, that's another story. if your go to a jungle region and get bitten by a parasite that deposits a larva in you. and when you return home, u realize, OMG i have this THING growing under my skin... don't u have a right to remove it? and be4 u say it's not the same thing, i beg to differ, it is. it's an entity of some sort. it's attached to your body, you don't want it there, you should have every right to have it removed.
now as to the comparision i made to bush and clarke.. i don't think it's melodramatic at all. i think it's realist. i think conservatives fail to see the big picture, and get caught up with what's RIGHT NOW and give no thought to what's more important.. the long term, the future. i think conservatives are afraid of what they don't understand, and instead of trying to learn about it, they want to keep everyone at status quo, or even to regress so they don't have to face what they are uncomfortable with, what they don't understand. and not to allow things to come.
and i stand by my statement, conservatives SCARE ME.. when i think of living in the world conservatives want, i find myself thinking i'd rather die. ;)
P.S.
about the statement that all LIBERAL nations fall.. PLEASE... all nations fall... nations' time come and go, and never last. Every nation eventually falls.. and if say they don't, u're not facing the FACTS. it's the endless cycle of evolution, biological, scientific, and political. do u really think the united states will last forever? LIBERAL, CONSERVATIVE, or OTHER? NOPE it won't.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Wow. That's a lot of assumptions about certain things.
Some parts of that post I agree with, others I completely disagree with. However, I'm too lazy to type in all my own points of view.
I will mention one thing though: You say that homosexuality is no more wrong than heterosexuality. From the point of view of nature, you're wrong. Heterosexuality springs from the base instinct to reproduce, which requires a member of each sex. Thus, it is "correct". It also comes from the desire for pleasure and to be with a partner in the case of humans (and probably many other species as well). Homosexuality only springs from the desire for pleasure and to be with a partner, it ultimately has nothing to do with nature.
no that's completely untrue. a percentage of all creatures on this planet are homosexual. it' is part of nature. if being born gay is has nothing to do with nature, than neither does being heterosexual. so yer wrong, homosexuality has alot to do with nature. and i disagree about things being assumptions. most of what i said was fact.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by LogicSequence [/i]
[B]i think conservatives fail to see the big picture, and get caught up with what's RIGHT NOW and give no thought to what's more important.. the long term, the future. i think conservatives are afraid of what they don't understand, and instead of trying to learn about it, they want to keep everyone at status quo, or even to regress so they don't have to face what they are uncomfortable with, what they don't understand. and not to allow things to come.
and i stand by my statement, conservatives SCARE ME.. when i think of living in the world conservatives want, i find myself thinking i'd rather die. ;)[/B][/QUOTE]
Could you generalise even more?
On the contrary, conservatives acknowledge that to keep society functioning, a steady rate of social evolution is required. What do you think would happen if we had a communist regime installed overnight? By nature, humans dislike rapid change. Whenever people have tried to change things radically, it has always ended in disaster and/or bloodshed.
People often mistake a desire for wanting gradual change as decadence and stagnation, whereas it's actually the sensible thing to do. THEY are not looking at the big picture, only what they think SHOULD happen instead.
Talcott Parsons a conservative sociologist advocates social change in what he calls "The March of Progress". Evolution is ineviatable in human society, but has ALWAYS been slow and gradual. Conservatives just acknowledge this fact of life.
Just because you can't see change occuring to the extent YOU want, doesn't mean it isn't happening.
Some people want to move so fast into the future, that they're forgetting the past, often on purpose. Certain people see culture, heritage and history as "undesirable" because they want to make a NEW future for themselves, one they think is right, and are intentionally ignoring the past.
If we forget where we came from, we forget who we are and what we are. Conservatives remember the past because it is important.
As the old addage goes; "Those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it."
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by LogicSequence [/i]
[B]no that's completely untrue. a percentage of all creatures on this planet are homosexual. it' is part of nature. if being born gay is has nothing to do with nature, than neither does being heterosexual. so yer wrong, homosexuality has alot to do with nature. and i disagree about things being assumptions. most of what i said was fact. [/B][/QUOTE]
:confused: riiiight...
show me a male ape that prefers a male over a female, or ANY other species for that. Humans are THE ONLY species that has homosexuals.
i went to google, and these are just some of the links that support what i said..now... a2597, perhaps you should try to learn about people who are gay, and they gay community, be4 you go bashing them... i suggest u go here: [url]http://www.pflag.com/[/url] , it stands for parents, families and friends of lesbians and gays. there is nothing offensive, it is a support and educational site... perhaps you should read the education section. you might read a little in the support section too.
Do you really think that all conservatives are the stereotypical "stuck in the past" white, middle-class, middle-aged-elderly males?
My dad's conservative, and came from a working-class background. He's passed his values on to me. Being 18, would not describe myself as "stuck in the past". Values are passed from one generation to the other, how can conservatism be "stuck in the past" if it's enduring through time?
How can that line be used to condemn conservatives? Conservatives to not ignore history, but study and learn from it.
One more thing, if your rebuttels are just going to consist of "Conservatives are stuck in the past" or other such ignorent, generalized cliches, you clearly have no idea who you're talking about.
Well..here goes my morning...this will take awhile...
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by LogicSequence [/i]
well damn, forget a thread for a week or so and look where it goes... it took me 15 min to sift thru all this stuff. and since i didn't want to spend 5 hours carefully writing down a response for everything that was said, i'll keep this in somewhat general terms.
First: A2597... i scare u? fine, but you're the type of person that truely scares me.
[b]Yea, you scare me. You stand against everything this nation once stood for. (Well, not everything, but a fair amount). [/b]
now, gay marraige. first of all, i should say i have quite a few gay friends and several in particular have been my best friends for the better part of a decade. and anybody who wants to argue that gay people are wrong or sinful or sick... is disgusting to me... how much hate is directed to gay people appauls me and makes me sick to my stomach. and i've seen it first hand. i've seen friends taunted, teased, and harrased b/c they are gay. and i've seen them beaten, hit, and one put in the hospital and in a coma b/c of it.
[b]Sorry to hear about that, since you skimmed though the info, you may have missed that I have Gay friends as well. I do NOT support taunting, beating, etc. Alot of good THAT does eh? However I still stand by my view that it is one of the most disgraceful, horrid acts that exist on this planet. [/b]
people like u, a2597 breed hate and violence b/c you fear something u don't understand. u've never bothered to try and understand people who are gay. you've been told all your life that your (mistical magical invisible) god deemed homosexuality bad (which is not exactly true, u can quote the bible all you want but there are 1000 interpretations for the scriptures u right wing people use to condem homosexuality). and b/c u've been fed this all of your life you accept it without question and never bother to try to understand.. homosexuality is no more wrong that heterosexuality. and any "GOD" that says it's wrong isn't a god at all. u know why? b/c if "god" created all than he created people who are gay. so why create something u dislike? First off, i don't beleive in god period, but if i did, i would never beleive he would dislike people who are gay, black, white, overweight, purple, sick, old, or anything u can think of.
[b]Well, I could say *Caugh* BULLSH*T *Caugh* to this whole thing, but eh. Breed hate and violence? LMAO. Sorry bro, I'm not a violent person, and I can't think of a SINGLE person I hate. I may hate what they do, but I've never met a person I hate. That includes people that I know would love to beat the crud out of me for whatever reason.
I didn't quote the Bible once in my past few post mate. I easily could have, but didn' since that wouldn't help one iota in this thread. However, even you must agree that the Bible is a history book, not once has any historical referance found in the bible been found false, and every time that scientist/etc try to, they find out it was correct. Still, people don't believe it when it says this nation falls, etc. Oh well. As for mistical magical invisible God, Don't have many Christain friends then eh? I've seen numerous things that I can only call mericles. People that should have died suddenly pulling though. I have a friend that had a VERY bad accident, broke his back, shattered vertebra, few other VERY bad things. Doctors said nothing could be done, his Family Prayed, they got their church to pray, and amazingly enough, he had an OVER NIGHT recovery. Explain that? It is true, I know him myself. And thats just one of the thousands of things that can only be called meraculous that I've seen in the past dozen years.
Onto God hating gays, lets explain this for you.
God Created man, however, no sin in the world meaning man had no free will, he followed God because there was no temptation to do otherwise. Fast forward, God allowed man to be tempted, thus meaning man CHOSE to follow him. This of course means that people can do whatever the hell they wanted to do, including rape, murder, pillage, whatever. But of course that comes at a price as well, (Namely hell, though I'm assuming God gives all people another chance at the perly gates, but thats just my opinion). Others can choose to follow God and his teachings. Concept isn't that hard to grasp. What does God hate? since you obviously have a very shallow grasp of God, I'll attempt to explain. Now, not being God this is of course not going to be complete.
Muder, Rape, Adultry, Untruthfulness, Stealing....wait, you see where this is going? Yep, not a single one is a person/race. They are all ACTIONS that people CHOOSE to preform. [/b]
People who are gay should have the same rights everyone else done... WHY SHOULDN'T THEY??? they pay taxes, they'e people, they fall in love, they have fights, the have friends, etc.. etc.. why can't they have the right to marry whom they love? that's like saying b/c someone is black they shouldn't have the right to marry. and you say gays should keep it to themselves.. WHY? why do they have to when straight people don't? HMMM? b/c it's unpopular? why should a people who are treated as second class citizens just accept that and not fight for the right to be treated as human beings? Now you say gays have other options available to u.. so? why should they be denied marraige? well a2597.. what if i said to you, b/c your name is whatever.. u can't marry.. but u have "Other options available". how would that make you feel? why shouldn't u be able to marry b/c of who you are? Now i could go on and on and on, and i'm sure i will b/c i'm sure u'll come back with some line about god or something.... (which is another think that annoys me, stop using god as an excuse...)
[b][/b]
Now, as to god... i think i've made my PERSONAL beleifs clear in other threads. I don't beleive in god. why? cause i don't beleive in something that i'm TOLD to beleive with the reason being "just because". there is and never has been any proof of the existance of god. u cannot prove that god exists. I'm sure many of you have seen the movie "Contact" and i think a line in that move puts it best. "have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? It says that all things been equal, the simplest explanations is most often the correct one. Now which is simplest, most beleivable? that an all-knowing all powerful being created every single thing in existance with a single thought, inspired people's actions, commited great magical happings on earth, and left absolutely no evidence whatsoever of his existance. Or is it more simple an explanation that people invented him, in they're minds. to explain what they don't understand, and so they wouldn't have to feel so alone." above all else in life, i like the character in contact, am a scientist. i beleive in fact, and evidence. there is no god b/c i see no evidence of it.. i do however see an abundance of evidence to support the latter part of that quote.
[b]As I've said, I've seen proof of Gods existance many times in my life, and frankly, no evidance to support the alternative (Evolution). Think about this just for a second, lets say the earth isn't 5 billion years old, but closer to 6 thousand. Seems like something strange to grasp for an evolutionist like yourself, but bear with me. Now, lets look at say, the rock layers. Each layer goes back so car in history, and once a layers age is determained, they know how old that layer is all over the planet, right? OK. Then howcome you occasionally see fossilized trees that go right though hundereds of those layers, and not only that, they are upsidedown. Seen it myself, really gives you an idea that they didn't form over hundereds of years, but rather VERY quickly, like some huge natural disaster planted hundereds of feet of mud all over the earth. Wait...didn't that happen. Oh yes, the archeological findings of a great flood that would have had to cover the whole earth...Did someone say great flood? Where have we heard that before?
Then there is this whole "Lighting struck the waters and up from the fluids were formed the first amino acids" right, thats been managed since then...IN A LABORATORY! C'mon, they formed on their own in the ocean during a storm. Oh look, the tide pulled them apart. ohh...look at that, a hand floating in the water. LOL. Sorry, but for me, its a WHOLE lot easier to think that an intelligant being created this whole place, rather then some chance. (BTW, how did those amino acids turn into life? and not once, but twice in order for them to reprodice?) [/b]
People need to stop using god as an explanation or reason for things. you have to realize that not everyone beleives in the SAME god as you, or that there even IS a god.. and u are no more right than they are. you cannot apply your beleif system to other people's actions b/c they may operate on another beleif system. if you want to disagree with something, you must use terms common to you and the other party. (and be4 u go thumping the bible at me saying that proves anything... the bible was supposedly written under god's influence.. well if u're trying to prove the existance of god, the bible becomes null and void, b/c it was supposedly created by him.. that like trying to define a word by using that word in the definition.)
[b]If I take this hammer, and smash your thumb with it, is the hammer not real bcause you don't believe it exist? Same applies here, just because they operate on a different belief system doesn't mean that God doesn't apply to them. [/b]
Abortion... i am pro choice, in case you hadn't guessed. untill they day that fetus is born, it is PART of the mothers body, and i beleive that mother has every right to say she does not want this to be a part of her any more. unfortunately that means the only option is abortion (perhaps in the future, removing and transplanting a fetus will be possible). and as that is the only course, then she should have the right to do that BECAUSE that fetus IS A PART OF HER BODY AT THAT TIME. now once it is born, that's another story. if your go to a jungle region and get bitten by a parasite that deposits a larva in you. and when you return home, u realize, OMG i have this THING growing under my skin... don't u have a right to remove it? and be4 u say it's not the same thing, i beg to differ, it is. it's an entity of some sort. it's attached to your body, you don't want it there, you should have every right to have it removed.
[b]Part of the mothers body, forgetting that the thing moves independantly, thinks independantly, learns independantly, etc? Its a proven fact that they are seperate beings, and that the fetus is alive after just a few weeks. (Alive meaning brain is working and learning). Seriously, watch some videos of abortion early on, watch how the child reacts even when its only inches long. It knows pain. And death isn't instant. OK, let me get this straight. Your saying that a Unborn Child is a parasite? I'm certain many parents will LOVE to hear that.[/b]
now as to the comparision i made to bush and clarke.. i don't think it's melodramatic at all. i think it's realist. i think conservatives fail to see the big picture, and get caught up with what's RIGHT NOW and give no thought to what's more important.. the long term, the future. i think conservatives are afraid of what they don't understand, and instead of trying to learn about it, they want to keep everyone at status quo, or even to regress so they don't have to face what they are uncomfortable with, what they don't understand. and not to allow things to come.
[b]Pardon, but isn't it liberals that prefer the "Carpe Diem" (Live for the Moment) lifestlye? Mindless sex, abortion, whatever god floats your boat kinda living? Yea, thats planning ahead. mindless sex = get aids, abort your kid = live with being a murderer for the rest of your life, (I've seen people later that have aborted a kid, they arn't ever happy about it once they mature to the point of relizing what they've done). Liberals want to trash the good wholesome family, if you don't think that your kidding yourself. I can agree that Bush hasn't done things perfect, but he was a WHOLE lot better then the alternative (Gore). Even Gores supporters agree to that. And not planning for the future? Haven't been watching the news lately eh? Hes privided hope for a future for two nations, as well as helping to secure a safer future for all nations.
If your upset about the economy, relize something, we are long overdue for a major depression, the fact that we are not in one is amazing. Read some economy books, and find out exactly what causes a depression, and how that a healthy nation usually has a depression every 20 - 40 years. Yep, we are LONG over due. [/b]
and i stand by my statement, conservatives SCARE ME.. when i think of living in the world conservatives want, i find myself thinking i'd rather die. the united states was founded with the intentions of growing and accepting what comes with the future.. it's time we embrace that instead of fighting it... i think if our founding fathers were here today, they'd ask what we have done with the system they created? why we've failed to take advantage of a system that allows us to update it with new ideas, new times, and new feelings.
[b]OK, so wanting a world where parents have the right to disciplin their kids, where people don't engage in mindless sex, where the people rule the government, not the government ruling the people, where People relize the difference between right and wrong, scares the living crud out of you and you would prefer to die rather then live in this nation? OK. Interesting.[/b]
and as i have forgotten what else was discussed, i suppose i will just have to respond to whatever comes next. and i'm sure i haven't helped calm things down... but hey, that's nothing new for me :well damn, forget a thread for a week or so and look where it goes... it took me 15 min to sift thru all this stuff. and since i didn't want to spend 5 hours carefully writing down a response for everything that was said, i'll keep this in somewhat general terms.
P.S.
about the statement that all LIBERAL nations fall.. PLEASE... all nations fall... nations' time come and go, and never last. Every nation eventually falls.. and if say they don't, u're not facing the FACTS. it's the endless cycle of evolution, biological, scientific, and political. do u really think the united states will last forever? LIBERAL, CONSERVATIVE, or OTHER? NOPE it won't.
[b]It is a fact that nations last alot longer when they are conservative though, once a nation becomes entirely liberal, it falls shortly after. Perhaps its because the nation loses track of what is good and bad, and instead decides to do whatever is popular.[/b]
[/QUOTE]
Hmmm we obviously didn't read any of the literature i provided did we mr. a2597? :)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]However, even you must agree that the Bible is a history book, not once has any historical referance found in the bible been found false, and every time that scientist/etc try to, they find out it was correct. [/B][/QUOTE]
[b]i'm sorry, YOU are incorrect. the bible is not a book of history, it's a book of fiction and fables. the historical references in the bible have been proven wrong over and over and over again.. and even if they were not, that still does not prove the existance of god.[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Still, people don't believe it when it says this nation falls, etc. Oh well. As for mistical magical invisible God, Don't have many Christain friends then eh? [/B][/QUOTE]
[b]the contrary, i spent 18 years of my life in catholic schools.. i've read the bible back to front more times than u i'm sure. and i'm more than qualified to say it's fiction.[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]I've seen numerous things that I can only call mericles. People that should have died suddenly pulling though. I have a friend that had a VERY bad accident, broke his back, shattered vertebra, few other VERY bad things. Doctors said nothing could be done, his Family Prayed, they got their church to pray, and amazingly enough, he had an OVER NIGHT recovery. Explain that? It is true, I know him myself. And thats just one of the thousands of things that can only be called meraculous that I've seen in the past dozen years. [/B][/QUOTE]
[b]do u even get the point? prove it's a mericle.... prove god did it... u can't, can u? of course u can't. there's no way to prove it... ANOMOLIES happen all the time. it's called chance. it's mathmatics. there's always that .1% of unpredicability that can come thru. like i said, it's not a mericle, just something that happened. just b/c a doctor said he was all but dead, doesn't mean there wasn't something the doctor wasn't, or couldn't have been aware of that could change things.. it happens all the time.[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Onto God hating gays, lets explain this for you.
God Created man, however, no sin in the world meaning man had no free will, he followed God because there was no temptation to do otherwise. Fast forward, God allowed man to be tempted, thus meaning man CHOSE to follow him. This of course means that people can do whatever the hell they wanted to do, including rape, murder, pillage, whatever. But of course that comes at a price as well, (Namely hell, though I'm assuming God gives all people another chance at the perly gates, but thats just my opinion). Others can choose to follow God and his teachings. Concept isn't that hard to grasp. What does God hate? since you obviously have a very shallow grasp of God, I'll attempt to explain. Now, not being God this is of course not going to be complete.[/B][/QUOTE]
[b]here again you're trying to support an argument using non-sequiturs. u can't use god to try and prove something about god.. lol i don't beleive in god, therefore nothing u've said applies to me. so howes the previos paragraph have any meaning to me??? now i agree, murder, rape, stealing... all very bad things... but not b/c mystical magical god told me so in a big book.[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Think about this just for a second, lets say the earth isn't 5 billion years old, but closer to 6 thousand. [/B][/QUOTE]
[b]proven not to be true by the way.. and notice i said it's been PROEVN[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Seems like something strange to grasp for an evolutionist like yourself, but bear with me.[/B][/QUOTE]
[b] nope ive heard the argument many times from crazy creationists[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Now, lets look at say, the rock layers. Each layer goes back so far n history, and once a layers age is determained, they know how old that layer is all over the planet, right? OK. [/B][/QUOTE]
[b] no, not correct. u need a basic geology class. it's not as simple as that.. there are hundreds of determining factors that your ignoring.[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Then howcome you occasionally see fossilized trees that go right though hundereds of those layers, and not only that, they are upsidedown. [/B][/QUOTE]
[b] simple, the earth's surface is constantly moving.. the magma flows underneath the earth's surface cause a convection pattern that constantly rises and falls with the changing temperature... this means that sedimentary layers are constantly moved far far underground to outragoues depths. it's simply due to plate techtonics. and these ebbs and flows can easily turn upside down and every which-a-way[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Seen it myself, really gives you an idea that they didn't form over hundereds of years, but rather VERY quickly, like some huge natural disaster planted hundereds of feet of mud all over the earth. Wait...didn't that happen. Oh yes, the archeological findings of a great flood that would have had to cover the whole earth...Did someone say great flood? Where have we heard that before? [/B][/QUOTE]
[b] there was no great flood that covered the entire planet. there is evidence to suggest that an enormous natural disaster occured in the area of the dead sea several thousand years ago where a natural land berier seperating a very large valley (the entire dead sea region) collapsed and what was then the mediteranean sea filled into that land. and to anyone in that area it would indeed have seemed as tho the entire world was flooded... but it wasnt.[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Then there is this whole "Lighting struck the waters and up from the fluids were formed the first amino acids" right, thats been managed since then...IN A LABORATORY! C'mon, they formed on their own in the ocean during a storm. Oh look, the tide pulled them apart. ohh...look at that, a hand floating in the water. LOL. [/B][/QUOTE]
[b]again with the non-sequiturs.... your using a common tactic used by conservative, your trying to make something perfectly plausible sound absird. you know very well the theory never suggest that lightening struck the ocean and WOW! there was a hand and foot and human.. but that's what u say the all mighty mystical magical god did :) kinda poking fun at yourself there. and your right! thanx for helping me! it HAS been recreated in the laboratory! :) proving it can be done. thanx for the help ;) amino acids are the building blocks of all life (as we know it). i suggest you take some basic biology courses. [/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Sorry, but for me, its a WHOLE lot easier to think that an intelligant being created this whole place, rather then some chance. (BTW, how did those amino acids turn into life? and not once, but twice in order for them to reprodice?) [/B][/QUOTE]
[b] well for me it's not ;) it was chance, everything is chance.. everything can be broken down into mathmatics. the breath your taking reading this, the child being born in india, the star exploding in some distant galaxy, it's all math. so was the creation of life in this planet... put certain elements together, give them enough time, and u have life. and just for your information, ASSUMING there was only one pond of amino acid goo from which life developed: you should know that the first life forms would have been simple strands of rna and dna. then bacteria that REPERDUCE ON THEY'RE OWN thus you only need one.. basic biology.. cell division. and from there on you can follow the path of evolution.[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]If I take this hammer, and smash your thumb with it, is the hammer not real bcause you don't believe it exist? Same applies here, just because they operate on a different belief system doesn't mean that God doesn't apply to them. [/B][/QUOTE]
[b]non-sequiturs again.. gee u like that confuse people tactic don't you? LOL if you smash my thumb with a hammer i'm likely to kick yer *ss. now, on to the second part. that's exactly what it means... to me GOD DOES NOT EXIST. therefore these RULES god created don't apply to me. i beleive god DOES NOT EXIST. and if god does not exist how can GOD apply to me?? like i said, u can't prove the existance of god.[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Part of the mothers body, forgetting that the thing moves independantly, thinks independantly, learns independantly, etc? Its a proven fact that they are seperate beings, and that the fetus is alive after just a few weeks. (Alive meaning brain is working and learning). Seriously, watch some videos of abortion early on, watch how the child reacts even when its only inches long. It knows pain. And death isn't instant. OK, let me get this straight. Your saying that a Unborn Child is a parasite? I'm certain many parents will LOVE to hear that.[/B][/QUOTE]
[b]hmmm again stretching things.... let's go! :) yes it's part of the mothers body, connected and USURPING THE MOTHER'S RESOURCES... by definition it is a parasite.. wanted or not. the fetus feeds off of the mothers nutritional intake and cannot survive on it's own without it... = parasite. now don't go association parasite with something that's bad.. there are good parasites and bad parasites.. just b/c someting is a parasite doesn't mean it's bad.. it just means it falls under the definition of a parasite. and as i've said, i went to catholic school, iv'e seen many tapes of all kinds of abortions... all of the bloody gorey details. what's your point? it doesn't know pain at an inch long, it's simply reacting to stimuli. yer right, death isn't always instant... your point??? that doesn't negate anything i said be4.[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Pardon, but isn't it liberals that prefer the "Carpe Diem" (Live for the Moment) lifestlye? Mindless sex, abortion, whatever god floats your boat kinda living? [/B][/QUOTE]
[b]did i say that? i didn't say that[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Yea, thats planning ahead. mindless sex = get aids, abort your kid = live with being a murderer for the rest of your life, [/B][/QUOTE]
[b]:: sigh :: it's not murder [/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B](I've seen people later that have aborted a kid, they arn't ever happy about it once they mature to the point of relizing what they've done). [/B][/QUOTE]
[b] yep quite true.. yer point? some people regret a lot of things... the majority don't.. again, what's your point?[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Liberals want to trash the good wholesome family, if you don't think that your kidding yourself. [/B][/QUOTE]
[b]define good wholesome family... oh wait, taht's the heart of our discussion isn't it? what if i don't want a family? HMMM don't like to acknowledge other people's wants eh?[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]I can agree that Bush hasn't done things perfect, but he was a WHOLE lot better then the alternative (Gore). [/B][/QUOTE]
[b] not even gonna start on that one! gore would have been 100% better than the idiot we have as a puppet.. i mean president now[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Even Gores supporters agree to that.[/B][/QUOTE]
[b] UMMMM NO!!?!? LOL where'd u hear that from, the star or national inquirer? LOL [/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]And not planning for the future? Haven't been watching the news lately eh? Hes privided hope for a future for two nations,[/B][/QUOTE]
[b] u mean trashed one's economy and INVADED AND OVERTURNED A SOVEREIGN NATION WITH ABSOLUTELY NO LEGITIMATE LEGAL REASON TO! besides his international game of texas shoot-um and who's d*ck is bigger. and let's not forget his greed for oil... [/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]as well as helping to secure a safer future for all nations. [/B][/QUOTE]
[b]UMMM NOT[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]If your upset about the economy, relize something, we are long overdue for a major depression, the fact that we are not in one is amazing. Read some economy books, and find out exactly what causes a depression, and how that a healthy nation usually has a depression every 20 - 40 years. Yep, we are LONG over due. [/B][/QUOTE]
[b] yep i agree! they happen all the time! but bush is doing the WRONG things to make it better. he's making it worse.[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]OK, so wanting a world where parents have the right to disciplin their kids, where people don't engage in mindless sex, where the people rule the government, not the government ruling the people, where People relize the difference between right and wrong, scares the living crud out of you and you would prefer to die rather then live in this nation? OK. Interesting.[/B][/QUOTE]
[b] again you're twisting my statements. if people wanna have mindless sex.. who cares, it's they're body to have mindless sex with. as for people ruling the goverenment or vice versa... geesh u need to go to college man! basic political science class will teach u that either conservatives or liberals will advocate either choice (people ruling or people ruled by) depending on what suits them best and what they want to get done. and people don't need "god" to realize the difference b/w right and wrong... DUH. and yes, the conservative idea of a world scares the living sh*t out of me and i'd rather die than face it.[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]It is a fact that nations last alot longer when they are conservative though, once a nation becomes entirely liberal, it falls shortly after. Perhaps its because the nation loses track of what is good and bad, and instead decides to do whatever is popular.[/B][/QUOTE]
thanks for that laughable responce, actually got alot of hardy laughs out of it. Seriously, work on your spelling, grammer, etc if you wish to be taken seriously.
Seriously, you begin to sound like an uneducated 12 year old parroting what his teachers and parents have told him over the years, no offence ment if that is what you are. (Ahh, the wonders of the internet).
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]thanks for that laughable responce, actually got alot of hardy laughs out of it. Seriously, work on your spelling, grammer, etc if you wish to be taken seriously.
Seriously, you begin to sound like an uneducated 12 year old parroting what his teachers and parents have told him over the years, no offence ment if that is what you are. (Ahh, the wonders of the internet).
I mean...you sound worse then me...:D [/B][/QUOTE]
Wow, resulting to petty insults about spelling and grammar... can't think of anything else to back your statements? So u have to result to slinging mud? That is laughable :).
and funny you should mention the uneducated 12 year old parroting parents' and teachers' comments, wasn't I accusing u of that all along?
I don't need to use perfect grammar and spelling to get my point across. you, unhappy with the point I was trying to make, stooped to hurling childish insults. This is always what conservatives do when faced with facts they don’t like.
But since YOU WENT THERE, let’s analyze your spelling and grammar...
"responce" - hmmm funny, I didn't know it was spelled that way...
"alot" - hmmm, funny how that's supposed to be 2 words huh?
"grammer" forgot an ‘a’ there buddy!
"offence" - hmmm u don't like the letter 's' do you?
"ment" nor 'a' I suppose
"then me" yea you don't like 'a' either, that should be "than"
So now that we've gotten the fact that we can both neither spell nor make grammatically correct posts, shall we stop hurling childish insults?
To equate a baby with a parasite has to be the dumbest thing i have ever heard. You say you have actually seen photos or videos of abortion, and you still support it?! Its scary that much of this generation thinks this way.
:: shrugs :: hmm, that's your opinion.. and it is, by definition. you still working under the assumption that all parasites must be bad horrible things....i'm merely using the pure definition of the word.
Main Entry: par·a·site
Pronunciation: 'par-&-"sIt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Latin parasitus, from Greek parasitos, from para- + sitos grain, food
Date: 1539
1 : a person who exploits the hospitality of the rich and earns welcome by flattery
2 : an organism living in, with, or on another organism
3 : something that lives in dependence on something else for existence or support without making a useful or adequate return
EDIT: ahhh, and now, as i've been up for 36 hours working, i'm going to bed :o i'm sure they'll be pleanty of controversy awaiting me here when i wake up... i must make sure to put this on the very t... bottom of my list of things to do. nighty night.
nah, we could continue this forever, but seriously, its pretty obvious that you won't be turned, as as we go along your getting more people mad at you. (I on the other hand, already have lots of people mad at me for my first post responding to yours).
Everyone knows I can't spell worth beans, but at least I try to. Frankly, I just want to ask you one last question. What is it that you think conservatives are trying to do that scares you so much, you haven't said what it is, and frankly, I doubt its bringing morals back to where they used to be. So just what is it your afraid we'll do?
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Round and round and round they go...
Try and keep things a tad more civil or I'll have to take steps. Flaming will not be tolerated.
Strictly speaking, in technical terms, an unborn child is a parasite. As he said though, this DOES NOT MAKE IT BAD. Your reaction stems from a lack of understanding of the word 'Parasite' -- let's look it up.
...
[i]
3. (Zo["o]l.)
(a) An animal which lives during the whole or part of its
existence on or in the body of some other animal,
feeding upon its food, blood, or tissues, as lice,
tapeworms, etc.
(b) An animal which steals the food of another, as the
parasitic jager.
(c) An animal which habitually uses the nest of another,
as the cowbird and the European cuckoo.
[/i]
Pay careful attention to these definitions. (Note: 1-2 was refering to plant parasites, thus was pointless to this discussion.)
Yes, I've seen the abortion videos, I know first hand what it's like and about, not from hearing things, but from being there. (Long story, don't want to get into it. Don't ask.) -- I find the abuse of abortions revolting, but I find the people that think a rape victim should be FORCED to carry her rapists child even MORE revolting.
My views on abortion are no where near as extreme as some, go back to like page 2, I think, for a deeper explanation of my beliefs.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Matt [Psionic] [/i]
[B]As he said though, this DOES NOT MAKE IT BAD. Your reaction stems from a lack of understanding of the word 'Parasite' -- let's look it up.[/B][/QUOTE]
However, some words DO have negative connotations, it's the way language works; certain words and phrases automatically make us think this way.
You [b]can[/b] call a baby a parasite, but because we automatically think of parasites as being unwanted, harmful, and downright nasty, we don't use the phrase.
It's like calling a mixed race person a "mongrel". The word itself has negative connotations of "mis-matched breeding" among dogs, and thusly is not used in a human context. (No matter how "technically correct" it may be.)
[QUOTE][i]Morden wrote:[/i]
However, some words DO have negative connotations, it's the way language works; certain words and phrases automatically make us think this way.
You can call a baby a parasite, but because we automatically think of parasites as being unwanted, harmful, and downright nasty, we don't use the phrase.
It's like calling a mixed race person a "mongrel". The word itself has negative connotations of "mis-matched breeding" among dogs, and thusly is not used in a human context. (No matter how "technically correct" it may be.)
Regards,
Morden
[/QUOTE]
All of this is true, and very unfortunate. It's basically emotionalism taking over what is technically correct. This is bad. People's misguided emotional responses to words should never override fact.
Regards,
Matt
P.S. I know more than a few mixed race humans who refer to themselves as mutts, fondly at that. Remember, mixbreed dogs are far superior in health and lifespan. Not everyone has negative associations with the word :)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Matt [Psionic] [/i]
[B]P.S. I know more than a few mixed race humans who refer to themselves as mutts, fondly at that. Remember, mixbreed dogs are far superior in health and lifespan. Not everyone has negative associations with the word :) [/B][/QUOTE]
It's the same with blacks using the word "Nigger" to address each-other in a friendly way, and gays using the word "queer" to describe themselves. Both were previously used as insults, but have been turned around by those they were used on.
Funny, I always thought mongrels were genetically inferior to dogs that stick inside their breeds. You learn something new every day, cheers Matt. :)
It's not a rule per se that mutts are genetically healthier than purebred dogs, but it's pretty much how it goes. Traditionally, purebred dogs have breed-specific health disorders that occur to almost all within the breed. Where as dogs that are only part of the breed do not have these problems. For example, my dog is a mix between a Pembrooke Welsh Corgi and a Finnish Spitz. Purebred Corgi's almost all develop back problems and arthritis fairly early on in life (4-5 years old.) If crossbred with a dog that is not predisposed to these problems, they very rarely ever get them. Now! On the flip side! You can possibly make a breed predisposed problem WORSE by crossbreed two breeds that BOTH have that problem. However, for the most part, mixbreed dogs come out healthier and live longer.
Regards,
Matt
P.S. I know there is extensive genetic testing, certification, etc that can go on the purebred world to try to avoid these problems, but it's often not enough, and still can't prevent to any degree of success breed specific weeknesses.
Comments
[B]I shouldn't have to face what LogicSequence said. (BTW, my post was directed at Logic Sequence) [/B][/QUOTE]
I can sympathise with you mate.
I consider myself "conservative", and I was offended by LogicSequence saying in no uncertain terms that conservatism, a belief system that defines who I am personally and in relation to my place in society, "makes him sick".
Regards,
Morden
[B]Tis why I won't become a barber. ;)
Just as Croxis shoulden't have to face what I just spewed out, I shouldn't have to face what LogicSequence said.[/B][/QUOTE]
True dat, true dat.
[SIZE=3]Excuse me?!?![/SIZE]
Is this or is this [i]not[/i] the internet? If we keep up with the rational discussions and admitted falacies, it may ruin the very fabric of space and time!!!
:D
That being said, I'd like to address a few of the topics. None are pointed at specific individuals, just quoted for reference.
[quote]
Matt said:
They see the same problem I do... if you ban one type or reason for abortion, what's next?
[/quote]
That reasoning is slightly faulted. Consider "If you ban one type of pharmaceutical, what's next?", or "If you keep one type of vehicle from the road, what's next?"
As a society, we constently decide where limts are placed between what is acceptable and what is not. Fearing our future decisions, or the decisions of future generations, is not reason to not make the judgement.
[quote]
Matt also said:
A gay couple has no legal rights, and this DOES become important; just look at things like taxes, emergencies, death... would a hospital refuse a gay man from seeing his dying partner because they aren't married or family? No, there needs to be some legal acknowledge of the union.
[/quote]
I think your coming close to the crux of the matter: money. Most advocates are seeking the legalization of same-sex marriages for the financial implications, such as employer-sponsored health benefits, tax-deductions, etc. Changing the rules that insurance rates are based on will be a costly action, for the insurance corporations first, but then for us as customers.
A minority of same-sex marriage advocates are apparently not as interested in the financial matters. They just want the same respect in their communities as traditional married couples, and recognition that their union is just as valid. However, you [b]cannot[/b] legislate acceptance or good-will. Attempts in the past have normally resulted in the opposite affect.
[quote]
[i]David of Mac said:[/i]
I'm sorry, but I can't agree. I don't think that people should be limited by how and who they can love based on which of them has dangly bits between their legs. It strikes me as being akin to saying that a man and a woman can't enjoy a platonic relationship because God intended for man and woman to be together in Holy Matrimony and only holy matrimony.
[/quote]
I realize your exagerating, but the former is [i]not[/i] akin to the latter since I know of no religion that permits [i]only[/i] married relations between men and women. The issue is not love, for if it was, then why aren't marital relationships between people and animals recognized? Or adults and minors? Legal marriage is not a recognition of love. It is a recognition of responsibilities and privileges that are to be shared by a man and a women.
[quote]
[i]Bekenn stated:[/i]
Rape and incest are less clear-cut for me. In the case of incest, I'd have to say that if the act of conception was consensual, then the parents need to take responsibility for the life they've created. For rape... that's a tough one. For the sake of compromise with those who disagree with me, I suppose I'd allow abortions in that case.
[/quote]
Consider the anti-abortion/pro-life position which has the viewpoint that life begins at conception: if a woman makes a mistake, or is violated, why is a punishment exacted on an innocent life? If you make the assumption that a fetus is not alive, then the question is meaningless. However, in the absence of evidence beyond a resonable doubt, which is the more humane approach?
[B]Excuse me?!?
[SIZE=3]Excuse me?!?![/SIZE]
Is this or is this [i]not[/i] the internet? If we keep up with the rational discussions and admitted falacies, it may ruin the very fabric of space and time!!!
:D[/B][/QUOTE]
You know as well as any of us that firstones ripped up the fabric of space and time in its little part of the net long ago. :)
That reasoning is slightly faulted. Consider "If you ban one type of pharmaceutical, what's next?", or "If you keep one type of vehicle from the road, what's next?"
As a society, we constently decide where limts are placed between what is acceptable and what is not. Fearing our future decisions, or the decisions of future generations, is not reason to not make the judgement.
[/QUOTE]
This is correct, the slippery slope argument does have faults. However, it's also shown to be true in many cases. You do see it though, especially in the U.S. war on drugs. "Opiates are dangerous, let's ban them all, even something as relatively harmless as codeine." -- both of which are over the counter in most other countries including Canada and England. This does harm people, me for example right now, who has been sick with nasty bronchitis for a while. I'd love to run down to the pharmacy and grab a bottle of codeine so I could stop coughing.
As for cars, how should people react if one day the NHTSA decides that all cars over...say... 350 horsepower are banned. No one needs that much power, right? It just contributes to speeding and fatal accidents. What happens 5 years later when it's 250... and another 5 years later when it's 200... etc. I'll admit that argument can be faulty in some cases, but it often holds true.
Regards,
Matt
[B]You know as well as any of us that firstones ripped up the fabric of space and time in its little part of the net long ago. :) [/B][/QUOTE]
Sector 14 ain't got sh*t on us. ;)
Regards,
Morden
First: A2597... i scare u? fine, but you're the type of person that truely scares me.
now, gay marraige. first of all, i should say i have quite a few gay friends and several in particular have been my best friends for the better part of a decade. and anybody who wants to argue that gay people are wrong or sinful or sick... is disgusting to me... how much hate is directed to gay people appauls me and makes me sick to my stomach. and i've seen it first hand. i've seen friends taunted, teased, and harrased b/c they are gay. and i've seen them beaten, hit, and one put in the hospital and in a coma b/c of it.
people like u, a2597 breed hate and violence b/c you fear something u don't understand. u've never bothered to try and understand people who are gay. you've been told all your life that your (mistical magical invisible) god deemed homosexuality bad (which is not exactly true, u can quote the bible all you want but there are 1000 interpretations for the scriptures u right wing people use to condem homosexuality). and b/c u've been fed this all of your life you accept it without question and never bother to try to understand.. homosexuality is no more wrong that heterosexuality. and any "GOD" that says it's wrong isn't a god at all. u know why? b/c if "god" created all than he created people who are gay. so why create something u dislike? First off, i don't beleive in god period, but if i did, i would never beleive he would dislike people who are gay, black, white, overweight, purple, sick, old, or anything u can think of.
People who are gay should have the same rights everyone else done... WHY SHOULDN'T THEY??? they pay taxes, they'e people, they fall in love, they have fights, the have friends, etc.. etc.. why can't they have the right to marry whom they love? that's like saying b/c someone is black they shouldn't have the right to marry. and you say gays should keep it to themselves.. WHY? why do they have to when straight people don't? HMMM? b/c it's unpopular? why should a people who are treated as second class citizens just accept that and not fight for the right to be treated as human beings? Now you say gays have other options available to u.. so? why should they be denied marraige? well a2597.. what if i said to you, b/c your name is whatever.. u can't marry.. but u have "Other options available". how would that make you feel? why shouldn't u be able to marry b/c of who you are? Now i could go on and on and on, and i'm sure i will b/c i'm sure u'll come back with some line about god or something.... (which is another think that annoys me, stop using god as an excuse...)
Now, as to god... i think i've made my PERSONAL beleifs clear in other threads. I don't beleive in god. why? cause i don't beleive in something that i'm TOLD to beleive with the reason being "just because". there is and never has been any proof of the existance of god. u cannot prove that god exists. I'm sure many of you have seen the movie "Contact" and i think a line in that move puts it best. "have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? It says that all things been equal, the simplest explanations is most often the correct one. Now which is simplest, most beleivable? that an all-knowing all powerful being created every single thing in existance with a single thought, inspired people's actions, commited great magical happings on earth, and left absolutely no evidence whatsoever of his existance. Or is it more simple an explanation that people invented him, in they're minds. to explain what they don't understand, and so they wouldn't have to feel so alone." above all else in life, i like the character in contact, am a scientist. i beleive in fact, and evidence. there is no god b/c i see no evidence of it.. i do however see an abundance of evidence to support the latter part of that quote.
People need to stop using god as an explanation or reason for things. you have to realize that not everyone beleives in the SAME god as you, or that there even IS a god.. and u are no more right than they are. you cannot apply your beleif system to other people's actions b/c they may operate on another beleif system. if you want to disagree with something, you must use terms common to you and the other party. (and be4 u go thumping the bible at me saying that proves anything... the bible was supposedly written under god's influence.. well if u're trying to prove the existance of god, the bible becomes null and void, b/c it was supposedly created by him.. that like trying to define a word by using that word in the definition.)
Abortion... i am pro choice, in case you hadn't guessed. untill they day that fetus is born, it is PART of the mothers body, and i beleive that mother has every right to say she does not want this to be a part of her any more. unfortunately that means the only option is abortion (perhaps in the future, removing and transplanting a fetus will be possible). and as that is the only course, then she should have the right to do that BECAUSE that fetus IS A PART OF HER BODY AT THAT TIME. now once it is born, that's another story. if your go to a jungle region and get bitten by a parasite that deposits a larva in you. and when you return home, u realize, OMG i have this THING growing under my skin... don't u have a right to remove it? and be4 u say it's not the same thing, i beg to differ, it is. it's an entity of some sort. it's attached to your body, you don't want it there, you should have every right to have it removed.
now as to the comparision i made to bush and clarke.. i don't think it's melodramatic at all. i think it's realist. i think conservatives fail to see the big picture, and get caught up with what's RIGHT NOW and give no thought to what's more important.. the long term, the future. i think conservatives are afraid of what they don't understand, and instead of trying to learn about it, they want to keep everyone at status quo, or even to regress so they don't have to face what they are uncomfortable with, what they don't understand. and not to allow things to come.
and i stand by my statement, conservatives SCARE ME.. when i think of living in the world conservatives want, i find myself thinking i'd rather die. the united states was founded with the intentions of growing and accepting what comes with the future.. it's time we embrace that instead of fighting it... i think if our founding fathers were here today, they'd ask what we have done with the system they created? why we've failed to take advantage of a system that allows us to update it with new ideas, new times, and new feelings.
and as i have forgotten what else was discussed, i suppose i will just have to respond to whatever comes next. and i'm sure i haven't helped calm things down... but hey, that's nothing new for me :well damn, forget a thread for a week or so and look where it goes... it took me 15 min to sift thru all this stuff. and since i didn't want to spend 5 hours carefully writing down a response for everything that was said, i'll keep this in somewhat general terms.
First: A2597... i scare u? fine, but you're the type of person that truely scares me.
now, gay marraige. first of all, i should say i have quite a few gay friends and several in particular have been my best friends for the better part of a decade. and anybody who wants to argue that gay people are wrong or sinful or sick... is disgusting to me... how much hate is directed to gay people appauls me and makes me sick to my stomach. and i've seen it first hand. i've seen friends taunted, teased, and harrased b/c they are gay. and i've seen them beaten, hit, and one put in the hospital and in a coma b/c of it.
people like u, a2597 breed hate and violence b/c you fear something u don't understand. u've never bothered to try and understand people who are gay. you've been told all your life that your (mistical magical invisible) god deemed homosexuality bad (which is not exactly true, u can quote the bible all you want but there are 1000 interpretations for the scriptures u right wing people use to condem homosexuality). and b/c u've been fed this all of your life you accept it without question and never bother to try to understand.. homosexuality is no more wrong that heterosexuality. and any "GOD" that says it's wrong isn't a god at all. u know why? b/c if "god" created all than he created people who are gay. so why create something u dislike? First off, i don't beleive in god period, but if i did, i would never beleive he would dislike people who are gay, black, white, overweight, purple, sick, old, or anything u can think of.
People who are gay should have the same rights everyone else done... WHY SHOULDN'T THEY??? they pay taxes, they'e people, they fall in love, they have fights, the have friends, etc.. etc.. why can't they have the right to marry whom they love? that's like saying b/c someone is black they shouldn't have the right to marry. and you say gays should keep it to themselves.. WHY? why do they have to when straight people don't? HMMM? b/c it's unpopular? why should a people who are treated as second class citizens just accept that and not fight for the right to be treated as human beings? Now you say gays have other options available to u.. so? why should they be denied marraige? well a2597.. what if i said to you, b/c your name is whatever.. u can't marry.. but u have "Other options available". how would that make you feel? why shouldn't u be able to marry b/c of who you are? Now i could go on and on and on, and i'm sure i will b/c i'm sure u'll come back with some line about god or something.... (which is another think that annoys me, stop using god as an excuse...)
Now, as to god... i think i've made my PERSONAL beleifs clear in other threads. I don't beleive in god. why? cause i don't beleive in something that i'm TOLD to beleive with the reason being "just because". there is and never has been any proof of the existance of god. u cannot prove that god exists. I'm sure many of you have seen the movie "Contact" and i think a line in that move puts it best. "have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? It says that all things been equal, the simplest explanations is most often the correct one. Now which is simplest, most beleivable? that an all-knowing all powerful being created every single thing in existance with a single thought, inspired people's actions, commited great magical happings on earth, and left absolutely no evidence whatsoever of his existance. Or is it more simple an explanation that people invented him, in they're minds. to explain what they don't understand, and so they wouldn't have to feel so alone." above all else in life, i like the character in contact, am a scientist. i beleive in fact, and evidence. there is no god b/c i see no evidence of it.. i do however see an abundance of evidence to support the latter part of that quote.
People need to stop using god as an explanation or reason for things. you have to realize that not everyone beleives in the SAME god as you, or that there even IS a god.. and u are no more right than they are. you cannot apply your beleif system to other people's actions b/c they may operate on another beleif system. if you want to disagree with something, you must use terms common to you and the other party. (and be4 u go thumping the bible at me saying that proves anything... the bible was supposedly written under god's influence.. well if u're trying to prove the existance of god, the bible becomes null and void, b/c it was supposedly created by him.. that like trying to define a word by using that word in the definition.)
Abortion... i am pro choice, in case you hadn't guessed. untill they day that fetus is born, it is PART of the mothers body, and i beleive that mother has every right to say she does not want this to be a part of her any more. unfortunately that means the only option is abortion (perhaps in the future, removing and transplanting a fetus will be possible). and as that is the only course, then she should have the right to do that BECAUSE that fetus IS A PART OF HER BODY AT THAT TIME. now once it is born, that's another story. if your go to a jungle region and get bitten by a parasite that deposits a larva in you. and when you return home, u realize, OMG i have this THING growing under my skin... don't u have a right to remove it? and be4 u say it's not the same thing, i beg to differ, it is. it's an entity of some sort. it's attached to your body, you don't want it there, you should have every right to have it removed.
now as to the comparision i made to bush and clarke.. i don't think it's melodramatic at all. i think it's realist. i think conservatives fail to see the big picture, and get caught up with what's RIGHT NOW and give no thought to what's more important.. the long term, the future. i think conservatives are afraid of what they don't understand, and instead of trying to learn about it, they want to keep everyone at status quo, or even to regress so they don't have to face what they are uncomfortable with, what they don't understand. and not to allow things to come.
and i stand by my statement, conservatives SCARE ME.. when i think of living in the world conservatives want, i find myself thinking i'd rather die. ;)
P.S.
about the statement that all LIBERAL nations fall.. PLEASE... all nations fall... nations' time come and go, and never last. Every nation eventually falls.. and if say they don't, u're not facing the FACTS. it's the endless cycle of evolution, biological, scientific, and political. do u really think the united states will last forever? LIBERAL, CONSERVATIVE, or OTHER? NOPE it won't.
Some parts of that post I agree with, others I completely disagree with. However, I'm too lazy to type in all my own points of view.
I will mention one thing though: You say that homosexuality is no more wrong than heterosexuality. From the point of view of nature, you're wrong. Heterosexuality springs from the base instinct to reproduce, which requires a member of each sex. Thus, it is "correct". It also comes from the desire for pleasure and to be with a partner in the case of humans (and probably many other species as well). Homosexuality only springs from the desire for pleasure and to be with a partner, it ultimately has nothing to do with nature.
[B]i think conservatives fail to see the big picture, and get caught up with what's RIGHT NOW and give no thought to what's more important.. the long term, the future. i think conservatives are afraid of what they don't understand, and instead of trying to learn about it, they want to keep everyone at status quo, or even to regress so they don't have to face what they are uncomfortable with, what they don't understand. and not to allow things to come.
and i stand by my statement, conservatives SCARE ME.. when i think of living in the world conservatives want, i find myself thinking i'd rather die. ;)[/B][/QUOTE]
Could you generalise even more?
On the contrary, conservatives acknowledge that to keep society functioning, a steady rate of social evolution is required. What do you think would happen if we had a communist regime installed overnight? By nature, humans dislike rapid change. Whenever people have tried to change things radically, it has always ended in disaster and/or bloodshed.
People often mistake a desire for wanting gradual change as decadence and stagnation, whereas it's actually the sensible thing to do. THEY are not looking at the big picture, only what they think SHOULD happen instead.
Talcott Parsons a conservative sociologist advocates social change in what he calls "The March of Progress". Evolution is ineviatable in human society, but has ALWAYS been slow and gradual. Conservatives just acknowledge this fact of life.
Just because you can't see change occuring to the extent YOU want, doesn't mean it isn't happening.
Some people want to move so fast into the future, that they're forgetting the past, often on purpose. Certain people see culture, heritage and history as "undesirable" because they want to make a NEW future for themselves, one they think is right, and are intentionally ignoring the past.
If we forget where we came from, we forget who we are and what we are. Conservatives remember the past because it is important.
As the old addage goes; "Those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it."
Morden
[B]no that's completely untrue. a percentage of all creatures on this planet are homosexual. it' is part of nature. if being born gay is has nothing to do with nature, than neither does being heterosexual. so yer wrong, homosexuality has alot to do with nature. and i disagree about things being assumptions. most of what i said was fact. [/B][/QUOTE]
:confused: riiiight...
show me a male ape that prefers a male over a female, or ANY other species for that. Humans are THE ONLY species that has homosexuals.
EDIT:
[url]http://www.rnw.nl/lifestyle/html/gayanimals000808.html[/url]
[url]http://enotalone.com/books/ASIN/0312192398.html[/url]
[url]http://www.allaboutsex.org/AnimalSexuality101.html[/url]
[url]http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc97/1_4_97/bob1.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.cybermale.com/books/animalhomosexuality.html[/url]
[url]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312192398/ref=ase_gaymormon-20/103-8760954-2326268?v=glance&s=books[/url]
[url]http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1101990426-23309,00.html[/url]
[url]http://www.mirapuri-enterprises.com/Anand/NatHomoE.htm[/url]
i went to google, and these are just some of the links that support what i said..now... a2597, perhaps you should try to learn about people who are gay, and they gay community, be4 you go bashing them... i suggest u go here: [url]http://www.pflag.com/[/url] , it stands for parents, families and friends of lesbians and gays. there is nothing offensive, it is a support and educational site... perhaps you should read the education section. you might read a little in the support section too.
[B]
As the old addage goes; "Those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it."
[/B][/QUOTE]
hmmm funny, i was gonna use that line to condemn conservatives ;) i think u've got that backwards. conservatives are STUCK in the past.
Do you really think that all conservatives are the stereotypical "stuck in the past" white, middle-class, middle-aged-elderly males?
My dad's conservative, and came from a working-class background. He's passed his values on to me. Being 18, would not describe myself as "stuck in the past". Values are passed from one generation to the other, how can conservatism be "stuck in the past" if it's enduring through time?
How can that line be used to condemn conservatives? Conservatives to not ignore history, but study and learn from it.
One more thing, if your rebuttels are just going to consist of "Conservatives are stuck in the past" or other such ignorent, generalized cliches, you clearly have no idea who you're talking about.
Morden
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by LogicSequence [/i]
well damn, forget a thread for a week or so and look where it goes... it took me 15 min to sift thru all this stuff. and since i didn't want to spend 5 hours carefully writing down a response for everything that was said, i'll keep this in somewhat general terms.
First: A2597... i scare u? fine, but you're the type of person that truely scares me.
[b]Yea, you scare me. You stand against everything this nation once stood for. (Well, not everything, but a fair amount). [/b]
now, gay marraige. first of all, i should say i have quite a few gay friends and several in particular have been my best friends for the better part of a decade. and anybody who wants to argue that gay people are wrong or sinful or sick... is disgusting to me... how much hate is directed to gay people appauls me and makes me sick to my stomach. and i've seen it first hand. i've seen friends taunted, teased, and harrased b/c they are gay. and i've seen them beaten, hit, and one put in the hospital and in a coma b/c of it.
[b]Sorry to hear about that, since you skimmed though the info, you may have missed that I have Gay friends as well. I do NOT support taunting, beating, etc. Alot of good THAT does eh? However I still stand by my view that it is one of the most disgraceful, horrid acts that exist on this planet. [/b]
people like u, a2597 breed hate and violence b/c you fear something u don't understand. u've never bothered to try and understand people who are gay. you've been told all your life that your (mistical magical invisible) god deemed homosexuality bad (which is not exactly true, u can quote the bible all you want but there are 1000 interpretations for the scriptures u right wing people use to condem homosexuality). and b/c u've been fed this all of your life you accept it without question and never bother to try to understand.. homosexuality is no more wrong that heterosexuality. and any "GOD" that says it's wrong isn't a god at all. u know why? b/c if "god" created all than he created people who are gay. so why create something u dislike? First off, i don't beleive in god period, but if i did, i would never beleive he would dislike people who are gay, black, white, overweight, purple, sick, old, or anything u can think of.
[b]Well, I could say *Caugh* BULLSH*T *Caugh* to this whole thing, but eh. Breed hate and violence? LMAO. Sorry bro, I'm not a violent person, and I can't think of a SINGLE person I hate. I may hate what they do, but I've never met a person I hate. That includes people that I know would love to beat the crud out of me for whatever reason.
I didn't quote the Bible once in my past few post mate. I easily could have, but didn' since that wouldn't help one iota in this thread. However, even you must agree that the Bible is a history book, not once has any historical referance found in the bible been found false, and every time that scientist/etc try to, they find out it was correct. Still, people don't believe it when it says this nation falls, etc. Oh well. As for mistical magical invisible God, Don't have many Christain friends then eh? I've seen numerous things that I can only call mericles. People that should have died suddenly pulling though. I have a friend that had a VERY bad accident, broke his back, shattered vertebra, few other VERY bad things. Doctors said nothing could be done, his Family Prayed, they got their church to pray, and amazingly enough, he had an OVER NIGHT recovery. Explain that? It is true, I know him myself. And thats just one of the thousands of things that can only be called meraculous that I've seen in the past dozen years.
Onto God hating gays, lets explain this for you.
God Created man, however, no sin in the world meaning man had no free will, he followed God because there was no temptation to do otherwise. Fast forward, God allowed man to be tempted, thus meaning man CHOSE to follow him. This of course means that people can do whatever the hell they wanted to do, including rape, murder, pillage, whatever. But of course that comes at a price as well, (Namely hell, though I'm assuming God gives all people another chance at the perly gates, but thats just my opinion). Others can choose to follow God and his teachings. Concept isn't that hard to grasp. What does God hate? since you obviously have a very shallow grasp of God, I'll attempt to explain. Now, not being God this is of course not going to be complete.
Muder, Rape, Adultry, Untruthfulness, Stealing....wait, you see where this is going? Yep, not a single one is a person/race. They are all ACTIONS that people CHOOSE to preform. [/b]
People who are gay should have the same rights everyone else done... WHY SHOULDN'T THEY??? they pay taxes, they'e people, they fall in love, they have fights, the have friends, etc.. etc.. why can't they have the right to marry whom they love? that's like saying b/c someone is black they shouldn't have the right to marry. and you say gays should keep it to themselves.. WHY? why do they have to when straight people don't? HMMM? b/c it's unpopular? why should a people who are treated as second class citizens just accept that and not fight for the right to be treated as human beings? Now you say gays have other options available to u.. so? why should they be denied marraige? well a2597.. what if i said to you, b/c your name is whatever.. u can't marry.. but u have "Other options available". how would that make you feel? why shouldn't u be able to marry b/c of who you are? Now i could go on and on and on, and i'm sure i will b/c i'm sure u'll come back with some line about god or something.... (which is another think that annoys me, stop using god as an excuse...)
[b][/b]
Now, as to god... i think i've made my PERSONAL beleifs clear in other threads. I don't beleive in god. why? cause i don't beleive in something that i'm TOLD to beleive with the reason being "just because". there is and never has been any proof of the existance of god. u cannot prove that god exists. I'm sure many of you have seen the movie "Contact" and i think a line in that move puts it best. "have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? It says that all things been equal, the simplest explanations is most often the correct one. Now which is simplest, most beleivable? that an all-knowing all powerful being created every single thing in existance with a single thought, inspired people's actions, commited great magical happings on earth, and left absolutely no evidence whatsoever of his existance. Or is it more simple an explanation that people invented him, in they're minds. to explain what they don't understand, and so they wouldn't have to feel so alone." above all else in life, i like the character in contact, am a scientist. i beleive in fact, and evidence. there is no god b/c i see no evidence of it.. i do however see an abundance of evidence to support the latter part of that quote.
[b]As I've said, I've seen proof of Gods existance many times in my life, and frankly, no evidance to support the alternative (Evolution). Think about this just for a second, lets say the earth isn't 5 billion years old, but closer to 6 thousand. Seems like something strange to grasp for an evolutionist like yourself, but bear with me. Now, lets look at say, the rock layers. Each layer goes back so car in history, and once a layers age is determained, they know how old that layer is all over the planet, right? OK. Then howcome you occasionally see fossilized trees that go right though hundereds of those layers, and not only that, they are upsidedown. Seen it myself, really gives you an idea that they didn't form over hundereds of years, but rather VERY quickly, like some huge natural disaster planted hundereds of feet of mud all over the earth. Wait...didn't that happen. Oh yes, the archeological findings of a great flood that would have had to cover the whole earth...Did someone say great flood? Where have we heard that before?
Then there is this whole "Lighting struck the waters and up from the fluids were formed the first amino acids" right, thats been managed since then...IN A LABORATORY! C'mon, they formed on their own in the ocean during a storm. Oh look, the tide pulled them apart. ohh...look at that, a hand floating in the water. LOL. Sorry, but for me, its a WHOLE lot easier to think that an intelligant being created this whole place, rather then some chance. (BTW, how did those amino acids turn into life? and not once, but twice in order for them to reprodice?) [/b]
People need to stop using god as an explanation or reason for things. you have to realize that not everyone beleives in the SAME god as you, or that there even IS a god.. and u are no more right than they are. you cannot apply your beleif system to other people's actions b/c they may operate on another beleif system. if you want to disagree with something, you must use terms common to you and the other party. (and be4 u go thumping the bible at me saying that proves anything... the bible was supposedly written under god's influence.. well if u're trying to prove the existance of god, the bible becomes null and void, b/c it was supposedly created by him.. that like trying to define a word by using that word in the definition.)
[b]If I take this hammer, and smash your thumb with it, is the hammer not real bcause you don't believe it exist? Same applies here, just because they operate on a different belief system doesn't mean that God doesn't apply to them. [/b]
Abortion... i am pro choice, in case you hadn't guessed. untill they day that fetus is born, it is PART of the mothers body, and i beleive that mother has every right to say she does not want this to be a part of her any more. unfortunately that means the only option is abortion (perhaps in the future, removing and transplanting a fetus will be possible). and as that is the only course, then she should have the right to do that BECAUSE that fetus IS A PART OF HER BODY AT THAT TIME. now once it is born, that's another story. if your go to a jungle region and get bitten by a parasite that deposits a larva in you. and when you return home, u realize, OMG i have this THING growing under my skin... don't u have a right to remove it? and be4 u say it's not the same thing, i beg to differ, it is. it's an entity of some sort. it's attached to your body, you don't want it there, you should have every right to have it removed.
[b]Part of the mothers body, forgetting that the thing moves independantly, thinks independantly, learns independantly, etc? Its a proven fact that they are seperate beings, and that the fetus is alive after just a few weeks. (Alive meaning brain is working and learning). Seriously, watch some videos of abortion early on, watch how the child reacts even when its only inches long. It knows pain. And death isn't instant. OK, let me get this straight. Your saying that a Unborn Child is a parasite? I'm certain many parents will LOVE to hear that.[/b]
now as to the comparision i made to bush and clarke.. i don't think it's melodramatic at all. i think it's realist. i think conservatives fail to see the big picture, and get caught up with what's RIGHT NOW and give no thought to what's more important.. the long term, the future. i think conservatives are afraid of what they don't understand, and instead of trying to learn about it, they want to keep everyone at status quo, or even to regress so they don't have to face what they are uncomfortable with, what they don't understand. and not to allow things to come.
[b]Pardon, but isn't it liberals that prefer the "Carpe Diem" (Live for the Moment) lifestlye? Mindless sex, abortion, whatever god floats your boat kinda living? Yea, thats planning ahead. mindless sex = get aids, abort your kid = live with being a murderer for the rest of your life, (I've seen people later that have aborted a kid, they arn't ever happy about it once they mature to the point of relizing what they've done). Liberals want to trash the good wholesome family, if you don't think that your kidding yourself. I can agree that Bush hasn't done things perfect, but he was a WHOLE lot better then the alternative (Gore). Even Gores supporters agree to that. And not planning for the future? Haven't been watching the news lately eh? Hes privided hope for a future for two nations, as well as helping to secure a safer future for all nations.
If your upset about the economy, relize something, we are long overdue for a major depression, the fact that we are not in one is amazing. Read some economy books, and find out exactly what causes a depression, and how that a healthy nation usually has a depression every 20 - 40 years. Yep, we are LONG over due. [/b]
and i stand by my statement, conservatives SCARE ME.. when i think of living in the world conservatives want, i find myself thinking i'd rather die. the united states was founded with the intentions of growing and accepting what comes with the future.. it's time we embrace that instead of fighting it... i think if our founding fathers were here today, they'd ask what we have done with the system they created? why we've failed to take advantage of a system that allows us to update it with new ideas, new times, and new feelings.
[b]OK, so wanting a world where parents have the right to disciplin their kids, where people don't engage in mindless sex, where the people rule the government, not the government ruling the people, where People relize the difference between right and wrong, scares the living crud out of you and you would prefer to die rather then live in this nation? OK. Interesting.[/b]
and as i have forgotten what else was discussed, i suppose i will just have to respond to whatever comes next. and i'm sure i haven't helped calm things down... but hey, that's nothing new for me :well damn, forget a thread for a week or so and look where it goes... it took me 15 min to sift thru all this stuff. and since i didn't want to spend 5 hours carefully writing down a response for everything that was said, i'll keep this in somewhat general terms.
P.S.
about the statement that all LIBERAL nations fall.. PLEASE... all nations fall... nations' time come and go, and never last. Every nation eventually falls.. and if say they don't, u're not facing the FACTS. it's the endless cycle of evolution, biological, scientific, and political. do u really think the united states will last forever? LIBERAL, CONSERVATIVE, or OTHER? NOPE it won't.
[b]It is a fact that nations last alot longer when they are conservative though, once a nation becomes entirely liberal, it falls shortly after. Perhaps its because the nation loses track of what is good and bad, and instead decides to do whatever is popular.[/b]
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]However, even you must agree that the Bible is a history book, not once has any historical referance found in the bible been found false, and every time that scientist/etc try to, they find out it was correct. [/B][/QUOTE]
[b]i'm sorry, YOU are incorrect. the bible is not a book of history, it's a book of fiction and fables. the historical references in the bible have been proven wrong over and over and over again.. and even if they were not, that still does not prove the existance of god.[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Still, people don't believe it when it says this nation falls, etc. Oh well. As for mistical magical invisible God, Don't have many Christain friends then eh? [/B][/QUOTE]
[b]the contrary, i spent 18 years of my life in catholic schools.. i've read the bible back to front more times than u i'm sure. and i'm more than qualified to say it's fiction.[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]I've seen numerous things that I can only call mericles. People that should have died suddenly pulling though. I have a friend that had a VERY bad accident, broke his back, shattered vertebra, few other VERY bad things. Doctors said nothing could be done, his Family Prayed, they got their church to pray, and amazingly enough, he had an OVER NIGHT recovery. Explain that? It is true, I know him myself. And thats just one of the thousands of things that can only be called meraculous that I've seen in the past dozen years. [/B][/QUOTE]
[b]do u even get the point? prove it's a mericle.... prove god did it... u can't, can u? of course u can't. there's no way to prove it... ANOMOLIES happen all the time. it's called chance. it's mathmatics. there's always that .1% of unpredicability that can come thru. like i said, it's not a mericle, just something that happened. just b/c a doctor said he was all but dead, doesn't mean there wasn't something the doctor wasn't, or couldn't have been aware of that could change things.. it happens all the time.[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Onto God hating gays, lets explain this for you.
God Created man, however, no sin in the world meaning man had no free will, he followed God because there was no temptation to do otherwise. Fast forward, God allowed man to be tempted, thus meaning man CHOSE to follow him. This of course means that people can do whatever the hell they wanted to do, including rape, murder, pillage, whatever. But of course that comes at a price as well, (Namely hell, though I'm assuming God gives all people another chance at the perly gates, but thats just my opinion). Others can choose to follow God and his teachings. Concept isn't that hard to grasp. What does God hate? since you obviously have a very shallow grasp of God, I'll attempt to explain. Now, not being God this is of course not going to be complete.[/B][/QUOTE]
[b]here again you're trying to support an argument using non-sequiturs. u can't use god to try and prove something about god.. lol i don't beleive in god, therefore nothing u've said applies to me. so howes the previos paragraph have any meaning to me??? now i agree, murder, rape, stealing... all very bad things... but not b/c mystical magical god told me so in a big book.[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Think about this just for a second, lets say the earth isn't 5 billion years old, but closer to 6 thousand. [/B][/QUOTE]
[b]proven not to be true by the way.. and notice i said it's been PROEVN[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Seems like something strange to grasp for an evolutionist like yourself, but bear with me.[/B][/QUOTE]
[b] nope ive heard the argument many times from crazy creationists[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Now, lets look at say, the rock layers. Each layer goes back so far n history, and once a layers age is determained, they know how old that layer is all over the planet, right? OK. [/B][/QUOTE]
[b] no, not correct. u need a basic geology class. it's not as simple as that.. there are hundreds of determining factors that your ignoring.[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Then howcome you occasionally see fossilized trees that go right though hundereds of those layers, and not only that, they are upsidedown. [/B][/QUOTE]
[b] simple, the earth's surface is constantly moving.. the magma flows underneath the earth's surface cause a convection pattern that constantly rises and falls with the changing temperature... this means that sedimentary layers are constantly moved far far underground to outragoues depths. it's simply due to plate techtonics. and these ebbs and flows can easily turn upside down and every which-a-way[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Seen it myself, really gives you an idea that they didn't form over hundereds of years, but rather VERY quickly, like some huge natural disaster planted hundereds of feet of mud all over the earth. Wait...didn't that happen. Oh yes, the archeological findings of a great flood that would have had to cover the whole earth...Did someone say great flood? Where have we heard that before? [/B][/QUOTE]
[b] there was no great flood that covered the entire planet. there is evidence to suggest that an enormous natural disaster occured in the area of the dead sea several thousand years ago where a natural land berier seperating a very large valley (the entire dead sea region) collapsed and what was then the mediteranean sea filled into that land. and to anyone in that area it would indeed have seemed as tho the entire world was flooded... but it wasnt.[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Then there is this whole "Lighting struck the waters and up from the fluids were formed the first amino acids" right, thats been managed since then...IN A LABORATORY! C'mon, they formed on their own in the ocean during a storm. Oh look, the tide pulled them apart. ohh...look at that, a hand floating in the water. LOL. [/B][/QUOTE]
[b]again with the non-sequiturs.... your using a common tactic used by conservative, your trying to make something perfectly plausible sound absird. you know very well the theory never suggest that lightening struck the ocean and WOW! there was a hand and foot and human.. but that's what u say the all mighty mystical magical god did :) kinda poking fun at yourself there. and your right! thanx for helping me! it HAS been recreated in the laboratory! :) proving it can be done. thanx for the help ;) amino acids are the building blocks of all life (as we know it). i suggest you take some basic biology courses. [/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Sorry, but for me, its a WHOLE lot easier to think that an intelligant being created this whole place, rather then some chance. (BTW, how did those amino acids turn into life? and not once, but twice in order for them to reprodice?) [/B][/QUOTE]
[b] well for me it's not ;) it was chance, everything is chance.. everything can be broken down into mathmatics. the breath your taking reading this, the child being born in india, the star exploding in some distant galaxy, it's all math. so was the creation of life in this planet... put certain elements together, give them enough time, and u have life. and just for your information, ASSUMING there was only one pond of amino acid goo from which life developed: you should know that the first life forms would have been simple strands of rna and dna. then bacteria that REPERDUCE ON THEY'RE OWN thus you only need one.. basic biology.. cell division. and from there on you can follow the path of evolution.[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]If I take this hammer, and smash your thumb with it, is the hammer not real bcause you don't believe it exist? Same applies here, just because they operate on a different belief system doesn't mean that God doesn't apply to them. [/B][/QUOTE]
[b]non-sequiturs again.. gee u like that confuse people tactic don't you? LOL if you smash my thumb with a hammer i'm likely to kick yer *ss. now, on to the second part. that's exactly what it means... to me GOD DOES NOT EXIST. therefore these RULES god created don't apply to me. i beleive god DOES NOT EXIST. and if god does not exist how can GOD apply to me?? like i said, u can't prove the existance of god.[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Part of the mothers body, forgetting that the thing moves independantly, thinks independantly, learns independantly, etc? Its a proven fact that they are seperate beings, and that the fetus is alive after just a few weeks. (Alive meaning brain is working and learning). Seriously, watch some videos of abortion early on, watch how the child reacts even when its only inches long. It knows pain. And death isn't instant. OK, let me get this straight. Your saying that a Unborn Child is a parasite? I'm certain many parents will LOVE to hear that.[/B][/QUOTE]
[b]hmmm again stretching things.... let's go! :) yes it's part of the mothers body, connected and USURPING THE MOTHER'S RESOURCES... by definition it is a parasite.. wanted or not. the fetus feeds off of the mothers nutritional intake and cannot survive on it's own without it... = parasite. now don't go association parasite with something that's bad.. there are good parasites and bad parasites.. just b/c someting is a parasite doesn't mean it's bad.. it just means it falls under the definition of a parasite. and as i've said, i went to catholic school, iv'e seen many tapes of all kinds of abortions... all of the bloody gorey details. what's your point? it doesn't know pain at an inch long, it's simply reacting to stimuli. yer right, death isn't always instant... your point??? that doesn't negate anything i said be4.[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Pardon, but isn't it liberals that prefer the "Carpe Diem" (Live for the Moment) lifestlye? Mindless sex, abortion, whatever god floats your boat kinda living? [/B][/QUOTE]
[b]did i say that? i didn't say that[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Yea, thats planning ahead. mindless sex = get aids, abort your kid = live with being a murderer for the rest of your life, [/B][/QUOTE]
[b]:: sigh :: it's not murder [/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B](I've seen people later that have aborted a kid, they arn't ever happy about it once they mature to the point of relizing what they've done). [/B][/QUOTE]
[b] yep quite true.. yer point? some people regret a lot of things... the majority don't.. again, what's your point?[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Liberals want to trash the good wholesome family, if you don't think that your kidding yourself. [/B][/QUOTE]
[b]define good wholesome family... oh wait, taht's the heart of our discussion isn't it? what if i don't want a family? HMMM don't like to acknowledge other people's wants eh?[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]I can agree that Bush hasn't done things perfect, but he was a WHOLE lot better then the alternative (Gore). [/B][/QUOTE]
[b] not even gonna start on that one! gore would have been 100% better than the idiot we have as a puppet.. i mean president now[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Even Gores supporters agree to that.[/B][/QUOTE]
[b] UMMMM NO!!?!? LOL where'd u hear that from, the star or national inquirer? LOL [/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]And not planning for the future? Haven't been watching the news lately eh? Hes privided hope for a future for two nations,[/B][/QUOTE]
[b] u mean trashed one's economy and INVADED AND OVERTURNED A SOVEREIGN NATION WITH ABSOLUTELY NO LEGITIMATE LEGAL REASON TO! besides his international game of texas shoot-um and who's d*ck is bigger. and let's not forget his greed for oil... [/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]as well as helping to secure a safer future for all nations. [/B][/QUOTE]
[b]UMMM NOT[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]If your upset about the economy, relize something, we are long overdue for a major depression, the fact that we are not in one is amazing. Read some economy books, and find out exactly what causes a depression, and how that a healthy nation usually has a depression every 20 - 40 years. Yep, we are LONG over due. [/B][/QUOTE]
[b] yep i agree! they happen all the time! but bush is doing the WRONG things to make it better. he's making it worse.[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]OK, so wanting a world where parents have the right to disciplin their kids, where people don't engage in mindless sex, where the people rule the government, not the government ruling the people, where People relize the difference between right and wrong, scares the living crud out of you and you would prefer to die rather then live in this nation? OK. Interesting.[/B][/QUOTE]
[b] again you're twisting my statements. if people wanna have mindless sex.. who cares, it's they're body to have mindless sex with. as for people ruling the goverenment or vice versa... geesh u need to go to college man! basic political science class will teach u that either conservatives or liberals will advocate either choice (people ruling or people ruled by) depending on what suits them best and what they want to get done. and people don't need "god" to realize the difference b/w right and wrong... DUH. and yes, the conservative idea of a world scares the living sh*t out of me and i'd rather die than face it.[/b]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]It is a fact that nations last alot longer when they are conservative though, once a nation becomes entirely liberal, it falls shortly after. Perhaps its because the nation loses track of what is good and bad, and instead decides to do whatever is popular.[/B][/QUOTE]
[b] hmmm proof??? anywhere??? no??? didn't think so[/b]
anyways, that's all for now! i'm sure we'll be back at this later...
Seriously, you begin to sound like an uneducated 12 year old parroting what his teachers and parents have told him over the years, no offence ment if that is what you are. (Ahh, the wonders of the internet).
I mean...you sound worse then me...:D
[B]thanks for that laughable responce, actually got alot of hardy laughs out of it. Seriously, work on your spelling, grammer, etc if you wish to be taken seriously.
Seriously, you begin to sound like an uneducated 12 year old parroting what his teachers and parents have told him over the years, no offence ment if that is what you are. (Ahh, the wonders of the internet).
I mean...you sound worse then me...:D [/B][/QUOTE]
Wow, resulting to petty insults about spelling and grammar... can't think of anything else to back your statements? So u have to result to slinging mud? That is laughable :).
and funny you should mention the uneducated 12 year old parroting parents' and teachers' comments, wasn't I accusing u of that all along?
I don't need to use perfect grammar and spelling to get my point across. you, unhappy with the point I was trying to make, stooped to hurling childish insults. This is always what conservatives do when faced with facts they don’t like.
But since YOU WENT THERE, let’s analyze your spelling and grammar...
"responce" - hmmm funny, I didn't know it was spelled that way...
"alot" - hmmm, funny how that's supposed to be 2 words huh?
"grammer" forgot an ‘a’ there buddy!
"offence" - hmmm u don't like the letter 's' do you?
"ment" nor 'a' I suppose
"then me" yea you don't like 'a' either, that should be "than"
So now that we've gotten the fact that we can both neither spell nor make grammatically correct posts, shall we stop hurling childish insults?
Main Entry: par·a·site
Pronunciation: 'par-&-"sIt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Latin parasitus, from Greek parasitos, from para- + sitos grain, food
Date: 1539
1 : a person who exploits the hospitality of the rich and earns welcome by flattery
2 : an organism living in, with, or on another organism
3 : something that lives in dependence on something else for existence or support without making a useful or adequate return
EDIT: ahhh, and now, as i've been up for 36 hours working, i'm going to bed :o i'm sure they'll be pleanty of controversy awaiting me here when i wake up... i must make sure to put this on the very t... bottom of my list of things to do. nighty night.
You have a very nice day A2597. :D
Everyone knows I can't spell worth beans, but at least I try to. Frankly, I just want to ask you one last question. What is it that you think conservatives are trying to do that scares you so much, you haven't said what it is, and frankly, I doubt its bringing morals back to where they used to be. So just what is it your afraid we'll do?
Try and keep things a tad more civil or I'll have to take steps. Flaming will not be tolerated.
...
[i]
3. (Zo["o]l.)
(a) An animal which lives during the whole or part of its
existence on or in the body of some other animal,
feeding upon its food, blood, or tissues, as lice,
tapeworms, etc.
(b) An animal which steals the food of another, as the
parasitic jager.
(c) An animal which habitually uses the nest of another,
as the cowbird and the European cuckoo.
[/i]
Pay careful attention to these definitions. (Note: 1-2 was refering to plant parasites, thus was pointless to this discussion.)
Yes, I've seen the abortion videos, I know first hand what it's like and about, not from hearing things, but from being there. (Long story, don't want to get into it. Don't ask.) -- I find the abuse of abortions revolting, but I find the people that think a rape victim should be FORCED to carry her rapists child even MORE revolting.
My views on abortion are no where near as extreme as some, go back to like page 2, I think, for a deeper explanation of my beliefs.
Regards,
Matt
[B]As he said though, this DOES NOT MAKE IT BAD. Your reaction stems from a lack of understanding of the word 'Parasite' -- let's look it up.[/B][/QUOTE]
However, some words DO have negative connotations, it's the way language works; certain words and phrases automatically make us think this way.
You [b]can[/b] call a baby a parasite, but because we automatically think of parasites as being unwanted, harmful, and downright nasty, we don't use the phrase.
It's like calling a mixed race person a "mongrel". The word itself has negative connotations of "mis-matched breeding" among dogs, and thusly is not used in a human context. (No matter how "technically correct" it may be.)
Regards,
Morden
[img]http://www.smilies.org/basesmilies3/Yack.gif[/img]
Sigh....
However, some words DO have negative connotations, it's the way language works; certain words and phrases automatically make us think this way.
You can call a baby a parasite, but because we automatically think of parasites as being unwanted, harmful, and downright nasty, we don't use the phrase.
It's like calling a mixed race person a "mongrel". The word itself has negative connotations of "mis-matched breeding" among dogs, and thusly is not used in a human context. (No matter how "technically correct" it may be.)
Regards,
Morden
[/QUOTE]
All of this is true, and very unfortunate. It's basically emotionalism taking over what is technically correct. This is bad. People's misguided emotional responses to words should never override fact.
Regards,
Matt
P.S. I know more than a few mixed race humans who refer to themselves as mutts, fondly at that. Remember, mixbreed dogs are far superior in health and lifespan. Not everyone has negative associations with the word :)
[B]P.S. I know more than a few mixed race humans who refer to themselves as mutts, fondly at that. Remember, mixbreed dogs are far superior in health and lifespan. Not everyone has negative associations with the word :) [/B][/QUOTE]
It's the same with blacks using the word "Nigger" to address each-other in a friendly way, and gays using the word "queer" to describe themselves. Both were previously used as insults, but have been turned around by those they were used on.
Funny, I always thought mongrels were genetically inferior to dogs that stick inside their breeds. You learn something new every day, cheers Matt. :)
Regards,
Morden
Regards,
Matt
P.S. I know there is extensive genetic testing, certification, etc that can go on the purebred world to try to avoid these problems, but it's often not enough, and still can't prevent to any degree of success breed specific weeknesses.