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Sanfam
I like clocks.
Here's the deal. You go in the left door, take out the guards. Then, you go in the right door, and take out the guards. Once they're dead, you can disarm the trip-bomb in the center door. If you die, I'll never be able to get through! ;) :D
Now, the the point of this post. I was pestering LogicSequence over IM about the Question Mark Guy when the topic of engines and game sales came up.
While you guys are producing a spectacular mod, there are, quite sadly, going to be very few people to use it (relatively speaking). THe problem lies in the fact that EoC had somewhat low sales and only really established a strong, but limited cult following.
So of course the topic of engine availabilty and licensing came up. For obvious reasons, the ability to sell the mod on its own or release as part of a for-profit package are simply out of the picture. Thinking about this for a bit, a few ideas came to mind. One such idea was to find a way of *legally* releasing (or have released) a free, totally stripped down mod-base (Read: Engine), onto which files could be plugged and the game made to run, no charge to the user, and quick, custom setups and installs could be made with no hassle.
The other ideas, I'll discuss later. Gotta run :D
Now, the the point of this post. I was pestering LogicSequence over IM about the Question Mark Guy when the topic of engines and game sales came up.
While you guys are producing a spectacular mod, there are, quite sadly, going to be very few people to use it (relatively speaking). THe problem lies in the fact that EoC had somewhat low sales and only really established a strong, but limited cult following.
So of course the topic of engine availabilty and licensing came up. For obvious reasons, the ability to sell the mod on its own or release as part of a for-profit package are simply out of the picture. Thinking about this for a bit, a few ideas came to mind. One such idea was to find a way of *legally* releasing (or have released) a free, totally stripped down mod-base (Read: Engine), onto which files could be plugged and the game made to run, no charge to the user, and quick, custom setups and installs could be made with no hassle.
The other ideas, I'll discuss later. Gotta run :D
Comments
Absolutely nothing tangible is in it for them. There's no money, there's no statistics.
But there is something. Word of mouth, positive fan support. By providing such a beautiful engine to the public in pre-compiled form, they'd be actively supporting a very needy community: Modders. I know you guys understand the trouble of modding some games, and quite simply, what a bitch it is to work with some stuff. Offering a bare-bones engine and throwing it into the public means that's one step easier. Better yet, people will not have to hunt down a rare (or worse, of print) game just to play a mod that was made for it.
When a company does things like this, they gain *lots* of respect, and get a strong PR boost at almost no cost to themselves.
@The pure engine version:
I thought about that too some time ago. Technically it would be possible to remove all these big files we don't need for Buda5 but Indie mentioned the other side.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Sanfam [/i]
[B]But there is something. Word of mouth, positive fan support. By providing such a beautiful engine to the public in pre-compiled form, they'd be actively supporting a very needy community: Modders. [...] Better yet, people will not have to hunt down a rare (or worse, of print) game just to play a mod that was made for it.
When a company does things like this, they gain *lots* of respect, and get a strong PR boost at almost no cost to themselves. [/B][/QUOTE]
From our point your arguments seems to be right but we don't know about the copyrights and so on ...
[SIZE=4]But hey, lets try! Before we write at the right owner we should have a depeche that is written, checked and corrected by everyone of us.[/size] So what we wanna include? (hehe, actually I should learn for my physical chemistry exam tomorrow, so I don't have nuff time to think about GOOD arguments currently *hoping you'll accept this scusa* ;) ).
2. IF and IF we could get engine as freeware then what would we do about it. I mean does some of us know c++ well enough to be able to modify it for our needs? Though I know it would bring some more fanbase when you could play Buda5 without owning actual I-War 2.
3. I know you can download Freespace 2's source (or most of it) but it's *really* rare and you still need legal Freespace 2 cds to run game even if you compile source because you need data files (at least I think so. Maybe tbp is playable without cds).
4. We can try but....well we shouldn't be too optimistic about it.
The key is getting either a precompiled "Donor engine" out to the public, or having the source released and a workable engine derrived from that.
IMHO, the first option is the one to go for. It prevents anyone from stealing the engine's code and using it in their games, and keeps the material the way it is.
I'd imagine they want some way of demonstrating that you'd be using their engine, as well. Probably would have a fixed intro movie, or some sort of advertisement for the company and the engine.
that's just my 8-hour-delayed response :D
But we really should TRY THAT SO LONG UNTIL WE GET A COMPILED ENGINE that the users can DL together with Buda5.
B/c the most feedback I get for Buda5 is ... hey, where I get I-War 2 and why I have pay for it ... sometimes the do but mostly the peeps doesn't make such effort to buy a game for playing a mod.
And what Sanfam said: In comparison there are only a few people which uses Buda5, so we need Promotion (what I'm continue doing in different bigger forums when new releases comes out).
Also promotion for Firstones.com in general.
Basically if I understand, what we are asking for is a kinda mod "frame"- no game in it, just the engine into which you can plug mods to make them run.
I think this is a good idea, but it's quite debatable if they would se it that way...
By succeeding here, we could perhaps raise the bar for developers. :D
All we need to do is just get in contact with the people, and *poof*. If things work, they work. If they don't, we persist and make 'em work :D
[B]If things work, they work. If they don't, we persist and make 'em work :D [/B][/QUOTE]Like you managed to get Sierra sell ItF?:rolleyes:
[B]Like you managed to get Sierra sell ItF?:rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]
At least we tried. If we hadn't, we'd have achieved nothing. You can't say it was not without reward. A damn strong community was built from the attempt alone.
I'd bet that if most of the folks here were asked whether or not they'd wish to go through that trouble again, they'd be all for it.
The people who own the IW2 engine are not those who used to be Particle Systems, but those who used to be Infogrames, who have been bought by someone else. Not only did the chances of us getting the engine decline, but any chance of IW3 as well :(
I clear some things. Infogrames haven't been bought if you meant that (I got that impression) but Infogrames changed their name to Atari (Infogrames own Atari name). Atari/Infogrames owns at least some of the I-War 2 source (or whole thing). Seems that Stephen Robertson wasn't sure himself but it's sure Atari has some of it. Particle used to be independent developing company and Argonaut bought it and they are now known as Argonaut Sheffield. Stephen works for them now. Then one of I-War lead designers James Moore was kicked out...
@Sanfam: I don't regret trying to buy ItF ip from Sierra...that's why I put smiley to my last post.
And one very important note about this free engine thing. When Buda5 was begun, the one thing Stephen Robertson of late Particle Systems was absolutely clear about was that we should make it absolutely clear that Particle Systems is [b]NOT[/b] in any way connected with Buda5. The fact is that all Babylon 5 mods (and IFH especially for being a full game) are copyright infrigments, and thus vunerable as the old case of Aliens mod for Quake gotten changeled illustartes. I'm very, very sceptical that releasing any commersial engine as basis for our Babylon 5 mods would get past any legal department of the company or companies which have the rights. Just a reality check.
BTW, where've you been? Havn't seen you around for ages.
Oh, and P.S.
check yer lawbook for the definition of Copyright Infringement.
Merciful, of course the chance to be successful with that is low but nevertheless we have to try it b/c otherwise we simply wouldn't know if it would have been possible. :)
As for you Logic, what the hell is your problem? If I, as someone who has been with Buda5 from the very beginning and who still has a soft spot in his heart for this mod, pop in every now and then to express my opinion or give my two cents - what's wrong with that? Everyone is free to agree or disagree with whatever I post, so how on earth do I "waltz in like u own the place". Please provide even one example where I actually [b]command[/b] anyone here do this or that. And if you are just blowing off some steam, join a boxing club - I'm no-one's sand bag.
ps. I didn't mention the Aliens mod for Quake for nothing. It is a mod that was forsed to cancel itself by Fox (the Aliens vs. Predator game was coming). So if you, Logic, think the Babylon 5 mods aren't vunerable should Warner Bross. move against them, please provide some evidence to back your view up.
The reason Fox had that mod cancelled was because they feared it would infringe on an upcoming game, namely Alien vs. Predator.
WB absolutely loves the B5 Franchise, and from what I've seen, genuinely understands how to treat its fanbase. Until someone starts selling something, they'll stay out of the picture and let things roll. Now, if or when an official B5 game heads into development, then things will get a bit tricky.
And LogicSequence, while I do admire your devotion, you are taking this really strong. Hell, If anyone should be acting like that, it'd be me. :D People have a right to voice their opinions and make corrections where corrections are due. Also, I must argue with your accusations of attempting to "Talk down to people." I saw no such thing. He is just presenting the other side of the problem in doing this. The idea is to have a commercial, for-profit engine released, quite simply for free. It's a great idea to consumers, but a cardinal sin to publishers. The trouble is all in convincing them it's *not*a bad thing, and that quite to the contrary, it's one of the best decisions they could make.