[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by WHY [/i]
[B]Cue Tyvar screaming the exact opposite and claiming that anyone who professes atheism has no soul or whatnot.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Highly unlikely, of course atheist still have souls...if anything, I would suspect that it would be the atheist insisting that no one has souls, not vice versa. ;)
And interesting post RC. And I am in agreement with the strife in the church, too much in fighting, and it stems back to my argument on persuing personal gain. I could say a few reasons why I feel the beliefs of the Christain faith are applicable as a reason for religion today, but as they are conservative views it would most likely be considered flame bait, so I shall not.
I could list however, things such as how in the 1950s you could let your children play outside and not worry about someone raping your 6 year old daughter. Or a general age of chivalry, which is all but non-existant today.
As for imagining God for lack of faith in myself...I'd say not true. I have the typical male ego, I can accomplish much "on my own" and I can do it well. Nay, God is no figment of my imagination, you can laugh if you want, but He has revealed himself to me in ways that makes it impossible for me to doubt his existance. There comes a point when you see things go beyond coincidence, events happen that just makes it impossible to doubt.
Likewise, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Satan exist as well, because I have seen his works. Again, laugh if you wish, write it off as figments of a deluded mind bent on beliving in higher (or, lower, LOL) powers that exist. But based on my personal experiances, I know they do. (I shall add here, that the Exorcism of Emily Rose has some things too damn close to reality for comfort...pm if you want details)
anyhoo...I think I suceeded in de-railing my own thread thats already jumped tracks. LOL thats the fun of stream of thought posting. :)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]I could list however, things such as how in the 1950s you could let your children play outside and not worry about someone raping your 6 year old daughter. Or a general age of chivalry, which is all but non-existant today.[/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, a general age of chivalry in which women weren't considered equals, blacks were kept at the back of the bus where they belonged, fags were illegal like they should be, and any who dared speak freely and stray from the One True Faith of capitalism were blacklisted from jobs and forced to testify before congress.
The 1950s were not so idyllic. We simply used to be better at lying to ourselves and concealing our ugliness.
Anyway, I wish these threads would not get derailed so easily. I enjoy everyone assuming I'm a girl as much as the next guy, but this is a serious topic and one worthy of attention and discussion.
I could list however, things such as how in the 1950s you could let your children play outside and not worry about someone raping your 6 year old daughter.
[/B][/QUOTE] Sure, noone worried about it.
But in all likelyhood it [i]happened[/i] about as often as it does today.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]I could list however, things such as how in the 1950s you could let your children play outside and not worry about someone raping your 6 year old daughter.[/B][/QUOTE]
Because sweeping generalisations are always a [i]great[/i] way to debate.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Arethusa [/i]
[B]Wha. Bu. He. I AM NOT A GIRL. [/B][/QUOTE]
While we in IRC have never assumed so (or at least, I haven't), the topic of your avatar has come up in the past...
Feb 22 16:12:24 ...
Feb 22 16:12:40 so I wandering through the forums
Feb 22 16:12:50 and I is it just me, or does Arethusa
Feb 22 16:13:04 does Arethusa's avatar look like a chick?
Feb 22 16:13:13 it does.
Feb 22 16:13:14 link?
Feb 22 16:13:19 indeed, i have always thought so
Feb 22 16:13:37 ah - yes it does
Feb 22 16:13:44 okay, are you guys done with the dictionary? we all know I cant spell, and many of you are not that much better then I am :D
Feb 22 16:13:47 okay, its not just me
Feb 22 16:14:07 cause I was looking at it and went.. wait a second, are those boobies!?
Arethusa, with a female-sounding alias and a girlie avatar it's not really surprizing to be taken for a female forum user. To be honest, I never recognized Boomer in that doodle of yours, even though it's kind of cute.
I have an excuse, Daffy Duck is Garibaldi's God of Frustration. :D
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
First of all I would like to comment on all the errors in the original post by A2597 then after I have read more of the posts in here I will comment more. If anyone has doubt in my corrections, do your own research on the internet. I myself refreshed my own memory before posting.
[B]Error #1[/B]: [i]The first Pilgrims came to America around 1620 for five main reasons, but perhaps the greatest was for the freedom of worship, freedom from religious persecution. This coincides with the protestant reformation, which split Europe between the Catholics and Protestants. For those that do not know, as the very name implies, the protestant reformation was a protest against certain teachings of the Catholic Church. So, to escape the persecution of the Catholic Church, they came to America, where they could worship God freely.[/i]
The Puritans did not come to America as an escape from the Catholic church but from The Protestants. The Anglican church i.e. Church of England was the ruling church in England from 1534 on. In 1534 Henry VIII famously forced England to split from the Catholic church because they wouldn't let him divorce his wife because she couldn't bear him a son. This split was a part of the much larger Protestant Reformation that was going on all over Europe. The people we know as the Puritans were radical protestants who thought the the Church of England had retained far too many of the flaws of the Catholic church, the idolatry, pagentry, emphasis on kings and popes as the authorities, etc. The Puritans wanted to purify the church, make the Bible the number one emphasis, live a simple and austere life and for this they were persecuted by the Church of England.
[b]Error #2:[/b] [i]Moving forward 100 years to our founding fathers, those beliefs carried on, and this nation was founded on those same principals. This can be seen even clearer how less than 40 years after the declaration of independence was signed, the formulation of our national anthem included the words “In God we Trust”.[/i]
Francis Scott Key actually wrote the words thus: "...And this be our motto: 'In God is our trust.'" When this poem was later adopted as our national anthem this line was left out of the song. Religious sentiment following the Civil War brought on the desire to put a new motto related to God on our money. 1864 was the first time the words appeared on a coin. The words "In God We Trust" were not adopted as our official motto until 1956 superseding our previous (and much better) National motto "E Pluribus Unum" (Out of Many, One).
Now these were minor and relatively harmless points that I wasn't even going to respond to but the final error I found demanded a response. I debated this once before so this particular error really rubbed me the wrong way.
[b]Error #3:[/b] [i]Knowing that our founding fathers were basing the Declaration of Independence on the principals of the Christian faith, we can see that “the pursuit of happiness” was a statement of principal, centered on God, freedom, and family. . . The pursuit of happiness for me is the pursuit of God, and God’s will. I believe this was true of many of our founding fathers, and I believe that this holds true for us today.[/i]
I've argued it before, I'll argue it again. THE FOUNDING FATHERS WERE NOT CHRISTIANS. The core founders were not anyway. Most were Deists, that is they believed in [b]a[/b] God but did not believe that he/she/it had in any way influenced human life other than the original creation of life.
The core I refer to was George Washington, Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, John Adams, and Benjamin Franklin, 4 of which of course were our first four presidents. There are endless quotes from these guys [b]stating quite clearly that they were not Christians, that America was not founded on Christianity, that several of them in fact didn't like Christianity[/b]. Today's Christians have conveniently forgotten or choose to ignore these facts because it gives them comfort to believe that their beliefs are the beliefs of this nation as a whole and from its beginning. It's just not true, sorry to break it to you. I had it out with several Christians back home in Illinois because they refused to believe that our core founding fathers were anything less than good Christians.
The mid-1700s was the time of the Enlightenment when cultural emphasis was moving away from religion toward logic, reason, and science. This was strongly reflected in the writings of our founding fathers. The following bits are from this website (all emphasis mine of course): [URL=http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/debate.htm]Founding Fathers Religion Debate and Poll[/URL]
[b]George Washington[/b] revealed almost nothing to indicate his spiritual frame of mind, hardly a mark of a devout Christian. To the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789, Washington said that every man "ought to be protected in worshipping [b]the Deity[/b] according to the dictates of his own conscience."
[b]Thomas Paine[/b] was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence: "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and [b]for my own part, I disbelieve them all.[/b]" From: The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine. To Paine belongs the honor of naming our country the United States of America. He was the first to use the name in print, and it was his own creation.
[b]Benjamin Franklin[/b]: ". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, [b]I soon became a through Deist.[/b]"
[b]Thomas Jefferson[/b]: Even most Christians do not consider Jefferson a Christian. In many of his letters, he denounced the superstitions of Christianity. He did not believe in spiritual souls, angels or godly miracles. Although Jefferson did admire the morality of Jesus, Jefferson did not think him divine, nor did he believe in the Trinity or the miracles of Jesus. In a letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787, he wrote, [b]"Question with boldness even the existence of a god."[/b] Jefferson believed in materialism, reason, and science. He never admitted to any religion but his own. In a letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, 25 June 1819, he wrote, "You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."
Jefferson went so far as to produce a revised New Testament deleting all references to miracles and portraying Jesus as just a extraordinary man and a powerful moral leader.
One of my favorite Jefferson quotes can be found on wikiquote.org: "The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. [b]And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter...[/b] But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors." - Letter to John Adams (April 11, 1823) (Scan at The Library of Congress)
Another bit from [URL=http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/debate.htm]Founding Fathers Religion Debate and Poll[/URL]
In his, "A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" [1787-1788], [b]John Adams[/b] wrote: "The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. [b]It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.[/b]
[URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli]Wikipedia[/URL] also contains this info which I already knew without reading this article, I'm just using it for the link:
John Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli which states (rather ironically in this day and age), "[b]As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion[/b]; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen (Muslims); and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]I could list however, things such as how in the 1950s you could let your children play outside and not worry about someone raping your 6 year old daughter. Or a general age of chivalry, which is all but non-existant today.[/B][/QUOTE]
If that's what you refer to by "moral decay" then I have to take exceptance with it.
1. Immoral things like raping of children DID go on in the 50s and earlier. People today think it didn't because it was kept MUCH quieter. People didn't talk about those kinds of things back then, they kept their mouths shut out of fear. Today when we find these type of things the media announces it very loudly so it seems like instances are much more prevalent. They really aren't.
2. Chivalry is nice and all but traditional chivalry revolves around the idea that certain people, especially women, are weak and helpless and need to be protected. It's nice when people are willing to do that for others, but not if it propogates wrong ideas about women. And again the supposed downfall of Chivalry owes some to media emphasis on the negative aspects of our culture. Positive, beneficial things going on in our world are almost ignored in favor of negative stories. I know MANY guys who believe in [i]and practice[/i] Chivalry in a more modern sense that allows for a female's ability to take care of herself. Do some research on the SCA: The Society for Creative Anachronism. It is a medieval recreation society. They recreate all the good aspects of medieval society - handworking skills, weapons skills, chivalry, etc. - and leave out the bad aspects - religion, misogyny, slavery, etc. My last boyfriend was heavily involved in this society so through him I know many such people.
3. Whatever good things we have lost over time are completely overshadowed by all the bad things we have gotten rid of: slavery, misogyny, anti-semitism, widespread homophobia, widespread "authorized" religious persecution.
As a side note I must say to Arethusa that you seem to be quite skilled at saying everything I want to say much better than I am saying it. *high five*
Remember also that we live in an age of mass communication that did not exist before, so many of the events that people say "Oh that never happend 100 years ago" sure did happen, people in general just didnt know about it.
As to the christians, I do seem to remember a little thing called the Crusades, which i'd say was bloodier than our current invasion of iraq.
Right or wrong Religion has caused more and bloodier wars than just about anything else.
In the 1950's cancer was a word of taboo. If such a thing was unspoken it is not a terrible leap to argue that perhaps rape and other such things were even more suppressed.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Stingray [/i]
[B]Arethusa, with a female-sounding alias and a girlie avatar it's not really surprizing to be taken for a female forum user. To be honest, I never recognized Boomer in that doodle of yours, even though it's kind of cute.
I have an excuse, Daffy Duck is Garibaldi's God of Frustration. :D [/B][/QUOTE]
You know, almost no one ever recognizes Arethusa. I suppose I did pick it partially expecting no one to, but I've been kind of surprised at just how obscure it actually turned out to be over the five or so years I've been using it.
Also, I should note that that isn't my sketch. I just found it on Deviant Art, and it was delightful.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Biggles [/i]
[B]"Arethusa" sounds female? [/B][/QUOTE]
And Greek, as Stingray pointed out.
[url=http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheArethousa.html]Arethusa is a nymph in Greek mythology[/url]. She was chased by Alpheus and turned into a spring by Artemis to get away from him. I liked the story five years ago and changed my screenname, but it [i]is[/i], you know, kind of girly. Unfortunately, I've been using it for five years for absolutely everything, and I'd have to change my name at every forum, on AIM, etc.
Bah. Guess I'll have to get a new avatar tonight.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
You don't [i]have[/i] to. Just be prepared for a few misconceptions. :p
Random ChaosActually Carefully-selected Order in disguise
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Arethusa [/i]
[B]You know, almost no one ever recognizes Arethusa. I suppose I did pick it partially expecting no one to, but I've been kind of surprised at just how obscure it actually turned out to be over the five or so years I've been using it.
Also, I should note that that isn't my sketch. I just found it on Deviant Art, and it was delightful.
And Greek, as Stingray pointed out.
[url=http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheArethousa.html]Arethusa is a nymph in Greek mythology[/url]. She was chased by Alpheus and turned into a spring by Artemis to get away from him. I liked the story five years ago and changed my screenname, but it [i]is[/i], you know, kind of girly. Unfortunately, I've been using it for five years for absolutely everything, and I'd have to change my name at every forum, on AIM, etc.
Bah. Guess I'll have to get a new avatar tonight. [/B][/QUOTE]
It's nice to see that our local know-it-all, doesn't. He's human after all. Better brush up on that Greek mythology. ;)
Not everything that ends with "usa" has to do with America. :D
Well, so much for our resident female population. :(
Why does this myth persist? Why does anyone still believe this nonsense about America being founded on Christianity? Are we talking about the same America? The one founded by these guys?
[/B][/QUOTE]
Because its not a myth
While its widely known that the "big names" Madison, Jefferson, Washington excetera were diests and humanists and verious other things, of the 39 signatories of the 55 deligates at the Philidelphia convention a huge number of them where christians some were heads of seminaries, and even ministers, to name a few of the "chrstian fathers" , Abraham Baldwin, Richard Bassett, Daniel Carrol, John Dickinson, Thomas Fitzsimons, Lyman Hall, John Hancock, Ironicly enough Alexander Hamilton, James McHenry, Thomas Mifflin, Robert Morris, George Read, Roger Sherman, Charles Pinckney, and thats just to start with the ones that signed and thats 1/3 of the signators of the constitution, and if I did a more through check I think I could bump that number upto 2/3s of the deligates.
Next, the first congress of the United States comprised of something like 40% ordained ministers, in fact ministers out numbered lawyers in congress until something like the 1820s to 1830s..
The ideology that motivated the Patriot movement as a whole was in many ways heavily tied up with christian theology. If I started pooring through the who's who's of the patriot movement in the state legislatures it gets even more lop sided.
In many ways why we rember the diests more, is that their lack of religious background gave them a leg up in some rather nasty and fractious religious debates that were also occuring amongst the newly independant states (rember, most of them had state santioned official religions.)
One of my pet pevees is the notions of Washington and crew being supermen single handled responsible for the revolution and then eventually the constitution, frankly even if they had all died (with maybe the exception of franklin) in 1774, the Revolution would have gone on anyways, in much the same way. Franklin is key in founding the Federal US goverment as the source of the great compromise which brought the small and large states, but even then he had some help from various other peoples. There are so many major players who were pivotal and get glossed over by our history its kinda depressing.
As for the tripoli treaty, the original treaty was broken just as the ink dried, we sacked triopli, and signed a new treaty in 1805 in which article 11 wasnt present... sooo yeah.
Comments
And in firstones form, it lasted 10 post before entering the fun zone! MUAHAHA!!
*Explodes in a green gloopy mess*
It'was a born again thread...
;)
[B]Cue Tyvar screaming the exact opposite and claiming that anyone who professes atheism has no soul or whatnot.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Highly unlikely, of course atheist still have souls...if anything, I would suspect that it would be the atheist insisting that no one has souls, not vice versa. ;)
And interesting post RC. And I am in agreement with the strife in the church, too much in fighting, and it stems back to my argument on persuing personal gain. I could say a few reasons why I feel the beliefs of the Christain faith are applicable as a reason for religion today, but as they are conservative views it would most likely be considered flame bait, so I shall not.
I could list however, things such as how in the 1950s you could let your children play outside and not worry about someone raping your 6 year old daughter. Or a general age of chivalry, which is all but non-existant today.
As for imagining God for lack of faith in myself...I'd say not true. I have the typical male ego, I can accomplish much "on my own" and I can do it well. Nay, God is no figment of my imagination, you can laugh if you want, but He has revealed himself to me in ways that makes it impossible for me to doubt his existance. There comes a point when you see things go beyond coincidence, events happen that just makes it impossible to doubt.
Likewise, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Satan exist as well, because I have seen his works. Again, laugh if you wish, write it off as figments of a deluded mind bent on beliving in higher (or, lower, LOL) powers that exist. But based on my personal experiances, I know they do. (I shall add here, that the Exorcism of Emily Rose has some things too damn close to reality for comfort...pm if you want details)
anyhoo...I think I suceeded in de-railing my own thread thats already jumped tracks. LOL thats the fun of stream of thought posting. :)
[B]I could list however, things such as how in the 1950s you could let your children play outside and not worry about someone raping your 6 year old daughter. Or a general age of chivalry, which is all but non-existant today.[/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, a general age of chivalry in which women weren't considered equals, blacks were kept at the back of the bus where they belonged, fags were illegal like they should be, and any who dared speak freely and stray from the One True Faith of capitalism were blacklisted from jobs and forced to testify before congress.
The 1950s were not so idyllic. We simply used to be better at lying to ourselves and concealing our ugliness.
Anyway, I wish these threads would not get derailed so easily. I enjoy everyone assuming I'm a girl as much as the next guy, but this is a serious topic and one worthy of attention and discussion.
[B]
I could list however, things such as how in the 1950s you could let your children play outside and not worry about someone raping your 6 year old daughter.
[/B][/QUOTE] Sure, noone worried about it.
But in all likelyhood it [i]happened[/i] about as often as it does today.
[B]I could list however, things such as how in the 1950s you could let your children play outside and not worry about someone raping your 6 year old daughter.[/B][/QUOTE]
Because sweeping generalisations are always a [i]great[/i] way to debate.
[B]Wha. Bu. He. I AM NOT A GIRL. [/B][/QUOTE]
While we in IRC have never assumed so (or at least, I haven't), the topic of your avatar has come up in the past...
Feb 22 16:12:24 ...
Feb 22 16:12:40 so I wandering through the forums
Feb 22 16:12:50 and I is it just me, or does Arethusa
Feb 22 16:13:04 does Arethusa's avatar look like a chick?
Feb 22 16:13:13 it does.
Feb 22 16:13:14 link?
Feb 22 16:13:19 indeed, i have always thought so
Feb 22 16:13:37 ah - yes it does
Feb 22 16:13:44 okay, are you guys done with the dictionary? we all know I cant spell, and many of you are not that much better then I am :D
Feb 22 16:13:47 okay, its not just me
Feb 22 16:14:07 cause I was looking at it and went.. wait a second, are those boobies!?
I have an excuse, Daffy Duck is Garibaldi's God of Frustration. :D
[B]"Arethusa" sounds female? [/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, and Greek too. :D
[B]
Feb 22 16:14:07 cause I was looking at it and went.. wait a second, are those boobies!? [/B][/QUOTE]
I always knew Tyvar had trouble recognizing that type of thing :p
First of all I would like to comment on all the errors in the original post by A2597 then after I have read more of the posts in here I will comment more. If anyone has doubt in my corrections, do your own research on the internet. I myself refreshed my own memory before posting.
[B]Error #1[/B]: [i]The first Pilgrims came to America around 1620 for five main reasons, but perhaps the greatest was for the freedom of worship, freedom from religious persecution. This coincides with the protestant reformation, which split Europe between the Catholics and Protestants. For those that do not know, as the very name implies, the protestant reformation was a protest against certain teachings of the Catholic Church. So, to escape the persecution of the Catholic Church, they came to America, where they could worship God freely.[/i]
The Puritans did not come to America as an escape from the Catholic church but from The Protestants. The Anglican church i.e. Church of England was the ruling church in England from 1534 on. In 1534 Henry VIII famously forced England to split from the Catholic church because they wouldn't let him divorce his wife because she couldn't bear him a son. This split was a part of the much larger Protestant Reformation that was going on all over Europe. The people we know as the Puritans were radical protestants who thought the the Church of England had retained far too many of the flaws of the Catholic church, the idolatry, pagentry, emphasis on kings and popes as the authorities, etc. The Puritans wanted to purify the church, make the Bible the number one emphasis, live a simple and austere life and for this they were persecuted by the Church of England.
[b]Error #2:[/b] [i]Moving forward 100 years to our founding fathers, those beliefs carried on, and this nation was founded on those same principals. This can be seen even clearer how less than 40 years after the declaration of independence was signed, the formulation of our national anthem included the words “In God we Trust”.[/i]
Francis Scott Key actually wrote the words thus: "...And this be our motto: 'In God is our trust.'" When this poem was later adopted as our national anthem this line was left out of the song. Religious sentiment following the Civil War brought on the desire to put a new motto related to God on our money. 1864 was the first time the words appeared on a coin. The words "In God We Trust" were not adopted as our official motto until 1956 superseding our previous (and much better) National motto "E Pluribus Unum" (Out of Many, One).
Now these were minor and relatively harmless points that I wasn't even going to respond to but the final error I found demanded a response. I debated this once before so this particular error really rubbed me the wrong way.
[b]Error #3:[/b] [i]Knowing that our founding fathers were basing the Declaration of Independence on the principals of the Christian faith, we can see that “the pursuit of happiness” was a statement of principal, centered on God, freedom, and family. . . The pursuit of happiness for me is the pursuit of God, and God’s will. I believe this was true of many of our founding fathers, and I believe that this holds true for us today.[/i]
I've argued it before, I'll argue it again. THE FOUNDING FATHERS WERE NOT CHRISTIANS. The core founders were not anyway. Most were Deists, that is they believed in [b]a[/b] God but did not believe that he/she/it had in any way influenced human life other than the original creation of life.
The core I refer to was George Washington, Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, John Adams, and Benjamin Franklin, 4 of which of course were our first four presidents. There are endless quotes from these guys [b]stating quite clearly that they were not Christians, that America was not founded on Christianity, that several of them in fact didn't like Christianity[/b]. Today's Christians have conveniently forgotten or choose to ignore these facts because it gives them comfort to believe that their beliefs are the beliefs of this nation as a whole and from its beginning. It's just not true, sorry to break it to you. I had it out with several Christians back home in Illinois because they refused to believe that our core founding fathers were anything less than good Christians.
The mid-1700s was the time of the Enlightenment when cultural emphasis was moving away from religion toward logic, reason, and science. This was strongly reflected in the writings of our founding fathers. The following bits are from this website (all emphasis mine of course): [URL=http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/debate.htm]Founding Fathers Religion Debate and Poll[/URL]
[b]George Washington[/b] revealed almost nothing to indicate his spiritual frame of mind, hardly a mark of a devout Christian. To the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789, Washington said that every man "ought to be protected in worshipping [b]the Deity[/b] according to the dictates of his own conscience."
[b]Thomas Paine[/b] was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence: "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and [b]for my own part, I disbelieve them all.[/b]" From: The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine. To Paine belongs the honor of naming our country the United States of America. He was the first to use the name in print, and it was his own creation.
[b]Benjamin Franklin[/b]: ". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, [b]I soon became a through Deist.[/b]"
[b]Thomas Jefferson[/b]: Even most Christians do not consider Jefferson a Christian. In many of his letters, he denounced the superstitions of Christianity. He did not believe in spiritual souls, angels or godly miracles. Although Jefferson did admire the morality of Jesus, Jefferson did not think him divine, nor did he believe in the Trinity or the miracles of Jesus. In a letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787, he wrote, [b]"Question with boldness even the existence of a god."[/b] Jefferson believed in materialism, reason, and science. He never admitted to any religion but his own. In a letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, 25 June 1819, he wrote, "You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."
Jefferson went so far as to produce a revised New Testament deleting all references to miracles and portraying Jesus as just a extraordinary man and a powerful moral leader.
One of my favorite Jefferson quotes can be found on wikiquote.org: "The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. [b]And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter...[/b] But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors." - Letter to John Adams (April 11, 1823) (Scan at The Library of Congress)
Another bit from [URL=http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/debate.htm]Founding Fathers Religion Debate and Poll[/URL]
In his, "A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" [1787-1788], [b]John Adams[/b] wrote: "The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. [b]It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.[/b]
[URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli]Wikipedia[/URL] also contains this info which I already knew without reading this article, I'm just using it for the link:
John Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli which states (rather ironically in this day and age), "[b]As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion[/b]; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen (Muslims); and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
Ok, I think I'm done for now......
[B]I could list however, things such as how in the 1950s you could let your children play outside and not worry about someone raping your 6 year old daughter. Or a general age of chivalry, which is all but non-existant today.[/B][/QUOTE]
If that's what you refer to by "moral decay" then I have to take exceptance with it.
1. Immoral things like raping of children DID go on in the 50s and earlier. People today think it didn't because it was kept MUCH quieter. People didn't talk about those kinds of things back then, they kept their mouths shut out of fear. Today when we find these type of things the media announces it very loudly so it seems like instances are much more prevalent. They really aren't.
2. Chivalry is nice and all but traditional chivalry revolves around the idea that certain people, especially women, are weak and helpless and need to be protected. It's nice when people are willing to do that for others, but not if it propogates wrong ideas about women. And again the supposed downfall of Chivalry owes some to media emphasis on the negative aspects of our culture. Positive, beneficial things going on in our world are almost ignored in favor of negative stories. I know MANY guys who believe in [i]and practice[/i] Chivalry in a more modern sense that allows for a female's ability to take care of herself. Do some research on the SCA: The Society for Creative Anachronism. It is a medieval recreation society. They recreate all the good aspects of medieval society - handworking skills, weapons skills, chivalry, etc. - and leave out the bad aspects - religion, misogyny, slavery, etc. My last boyfriend was heavily involved in this society so through him I know many such people.
3. Whatever good things we have lost over time are completely overshadowed by all the bad things we have gotten rid of: slavery, misogyny, anti-semitism, widespread homophobia, widespread "authorized" religious persecution.
As a side note I must say to Arethusa that you seem to be quite skilled at saying everything I want to say much better than I am saying it. *high five*
As to the christians, I do seem to remember a little thing called the Crusades, which i'd say was bloodier than our current invasion of iraq.
Right or wrong Religion has caused more and bloodier wars than just about anything else.
[B]Arethusa, with a female-sounding alias and a girlie avatar it's not really surprizing to be taken for a female forum user. To be honest, I never recognized Boomer in that doodle of yours, even though it's kind of cute.
I have an excuse, Daffy Duck is Garibaldi's God of Frustration. :D [/B][/QUOTE]
You know, almost no one ever recognizes Arethusa. I suppose I did pick it partially expecting no one to, but I've been kind of surprised at just how obscure it actually turned out to be over the five or so years I've been using it.
Also, I should note that that isn't my sketch. I just found it on Deviant Art, and it was delightful.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Biggles [/i]
[B]"Arethusa" sounds female? [/B][/QUOTE]
And Greek, as Stingray pointed out.
[url=http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheArethousa.html]Arethusa is a nymph in Greek mythology[/url]. She was chased by Alpheus and turned into a spring by Artemis to get away from him. I liked the story five years ago and changed my screenname, but it [i]is[/i], you know, kind of girly. Unfortunately, I've been using it for five years for absolutely everything, and I'd have to change my name at every forum, on AIM, etc.
Bah. Guess I'll have to get a new avatar tonight.
;)
And I was so hoping for a catfight! Damn....;)
MUAHAHA!!! I LOVE THIS PLACE! :D:D :D
[B]A long-haired man is a half-girl :D [/B][/QUOTE]
I was about to mention that. :D
[B]You know, almost no one ever recognizes Arethusa. I suppose I did pick it partially expecting no one to, but I've been kind of surprised at just how obscure it actually turned out to be over the five or so years I've been using it.
Also, I should note that that isn't my sketch. I just found it on Deviant Art, and it was delightful.
And Greek, as Stingray pointed out.
[url=http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheArethousa.html]Arethusa is a nymph in Greek mythology[/url]. She was chased by Alpheus and turned into a spring by Artemis to get away from him. I liked the story five years ago and changed my screenname, but it [i]is[/i], you know, kind of girly. Unfortunately, I've been using it for five years for absolutely everything, and I'd have to change my name at every forum, on AIM, etc.
Bah. Guess I'll have to get a new avatar tonight. [/B][/QUOTE]
It's nice to see that our local know-it-all, doesn't. He's human after all. Better brush up on that Greek mythology. ;)
Not everything that ends with "usa" has to do with America. :D
Well, so much for our resident female population. :(
[B]Ow. Ow. Ow. Owwwwwww. Ow. No.
Why does this myth persist? Why does anyone still believe this nonsense about America being founded on Christianity? Are we talking about the same America? The one founded by these guys?
[/B][/QUOTE]
Because its not a myth
While its widely known that the "big names" Madison, Jefferson, Washington excetera were diests and humanists and verious other things, of the 39 signatories of the 55 deligates at the Philidelphia convention a huge number of them where christians some were heads of seminaries, and even ministers, to name a few of the "chrstian fathers" , Abraham Baldwin, Richard Bassett, Daniel Carrol, John Dickinson, Thomas Fitzsimons, Lyman Hall, John Hancock, Ironicly enough Alexander Hamilton, James McHenry, Thomas Mifflin, Robert Morris, George Read, Roger Sherman, Charles Pinckney, and thats just to start with the ones that signed and thats 1/3 of the signators of the constitution, and if I did a more through check I think I could bump that number upto 2/3s of the deligates.
Next, the first congress of the United States comprised of something like 40% ordained ministers, in fact ministers out numbered lawyers in congress until something like the 1820s to 1830s..
The ideology that motivated the Patriot movement as a whole was in many ways heavily tied up with christian theology. If I started pooring through the who's who's of the patriot movement in the state legislatures it gets even more lop sided.
In many ways why we rember the diests more, is that their lack of religious background gave them a leg up in some rather nasty and fractious religious debates that were also occuring amongst the newly independant states (rember, most of them had state santioned official religions.)
One of my pet pevees is the notions of Washington and crew being supermen single handled responsible for the revolution and then eventually the constitution, frankly even if they had all died (with maybe the exception of franklin) in 1774, the Revolution would have gone on anyways, in much the same way. Franklin is key in founding the Federal US goverment as the source of the great compromise which brought the small and large states, but even then he had some help from various other peoples. There are so many major players who were pivotal and get glossed over by our history its kinda depressing.
As for the tripoli treaty, the original treaty was broken just as the ink dried, we sacked triopli, and signed a new treaty in 1805 in which article 11 wasnt present... sooo yeah.