Spoiler: No, Baltar is not god, but some— perhaps only 3 and Leoben— may come to see him as a prophet. My suspicion is that Xena'll end up boxed for heresy and perhaps other things.
That said, this episode pissed me off. A lot. And I am most fucking displeased.
The episode started off well. Interesting premise. I had some issues with the start. Say, for example, space marines assaulting a hostile environment without, you know, space suits. And carrying MP5s and SA80s. And I didn't appreciate the absence of any explanation for how an encephalitis could infect a centurion. But whatever; it was still a decent start.
Then we rush through quarantine. Ok, I can deal with that. Time's limited, even if that sort of thing is pretty serious stuff.
Then thoughtful, sad, introspective Apollo now finds genocide amusing good times and doesn't bat an eye when the writers turn him into a vehicle for The Big Genocide Debate.
Then the possibility of Sharon being kept alive and effectively imprisoned by the Colonial government is ditched, and you can almost see the deus ex machine crawl out of her ovaries.
Then Adama preps an assault plan involving biological weapons without spending any time to consider the possible ramifications outside of a brief conversation with the President.
Then Helo mutinies, murdering the captive cylons with another god from a machine.
Then Adama's cool with mutiny and avoiding genocide and doesn't even bother to reflect on it or talk to Helo.
And an extremely potent direction is squandered in one episode, and we are right back where we started. I wanted ten episode of chasing cylons scared shitless of a tiny ship packed with long range, uninterceptable biological weapons. I wanted debate and mutiny and questions about the nature of humanity's ugliness. I wanted 33 gone backwards with the Cylons living constantly in fear. I wanted humans brutally interrogating the Cylons like the Cylons had interrogated them. I wanted Pegasus revisited. But no, Ron Moore, you fucked me. You fucked me in the ass, and now we're back to good ol' end of episode reset.
Oh well. At least the stuff with Baltar's messianic torture and Sharon's loyalty was interesting.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Arethusa [/i]
[B] Spoiler:
The episode started off well. Interesting premise. I had some issues with the start. Say, for example, space marines assaulting a hostile environment without, you know, space suits. And carrying MP5s and SA80s. And I didn't appreciate the absence of any explanation for how an encephalitis could infect a centurion. But whatever; it was still a decent start.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Spoiler: I'm pretty sure they did explain it. The virus was said to affect neural workings of the brain so it affects the hybrid, which appears to what directly controls the centurions while they are onboard.
But for the most part I think you're right, the episode had a good premise with a lot of possibilities but I'm not entirely sure I like they way they went with a lot of aspects.
And damn, I was so sure Helo was going to go for an unscheduled spacewalk at the end.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Arethusa [/i]
[B] Spoiler: I had some issues with the start. Say, for example, space marines assaulting a hostile environment without, you know, space suits. And carrying MP5s and SA80s. And I didn't appreciate the absence of any explanation for how an encephalitis could infect a centurion.
Then we rush through quarantine. Ok, I can deal with that. Time's limited, even if that sort of thing is pretty serious stuff.[/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, I agree, there were a few inconsistencies as far as certain safety procedures (wrt bio-hazards) go and there have been instances before where the prop department took shortcuts and used contemporary gear and didn't even try to make it look extraterrestrial. The odds are astronomical to find the exact same designs once you leave the generic realm.
On the other hand, cutting off corners of books and sheets of paper makes no sense whatsoever. It's not like it's preventing paper cuts or something like that. :D
[QUOTE][B] Spoiler: Then thoughtful, sad, introspective Apollo now finds genocide amusing good times and doesn't bat an eye when the writers turn him into a vehicle for The Big Genocide Debate.[/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, it's completely out of character, I'm not sure how they thought they could get away with that. At least he's back in shape now. ;)
[QUOTE][B] Spoiler: Then the possibility of Sharon being kept alive and effectively imprisoned by the Colonial government is ditched, and you can almost see the deus ex machine crawl out of her ovaries.
Then Adama preps an assault plan involving biological weapons without spending any time to consider the possible ramifications outside of a brief conversation with the President.
Then Helo mutinies, murdering the captive cylons with another god from a machine.
Then Adama's cool with mutiny and avoiding genocide and doesn't even bother to reflect on it or talk to Helo.[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not sure how they can get away with that either and still have Athena walk around freely. Very sloppy indeed.
[QUOTE][B] Spoiler: And an extremely potent direction is squandered in one episode, and we are right back where we started. I wanted ten episode of chasing cylons scared shitless of a tiny ship packed with long range, uninterceptable biological weapons. I wanted debate and mutiny and questions about the nature of humanity's ugliness. I wanted 33 gone backwards with the Cylons living constantly in fear. I wanted humans brutally interrogating the Cylons like the Cylons had interrogated them. I wanted Pegasus revisited. But no, Ron Moore, you fucked me. You fucked me in the ass, and now we're back to good ol' end of episode reset.
Oh well. At least the stuff with Baltar's messianic torture and Sharon's loyalty was interesting. [/B][/QUOTE]
I wonder if with all his attempts to do the unexpected RDM will not end up ruining this show. I'm ok with blending current issues with scifi, but once it's too real, things stop being entertaining and people will stop watching.
I don't have a problem with it being real. Real is fine. Allegory is not. And worse, really, is cheap, poorly executed Allegory of the Week, which would basically make it West Wing in Space.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Arethusa [/i]
[B]I don't have a problem with it being real. Real is fine. Allegory is not. And worse, really, is cheap, poorly executed Allegory of the Week, which would basically make it West Wing in Space. [/B][/QUOTE]
By real, I meant copying current events covered in the news. Scifi shows have been doing this as far as I can remember.
RDM isn't breaking new ground when he's falling back to basics just to get the job done. But then I'm still curious to see how the next episodes will play out. :)
I think the real issue is not entertainment. 33 was not entertaining. It was dark, depressing, and [i]exhausting[/i]. The problem is that it just gets insultingly stupid, entertaining or otherwise.
In all honesty, the last episode all but ended the show for me. Without question, it destroyed all respect I had for Moore.
Spoiler: There's something about this episode that just didn't sit very well with me and I can't quite put my finger on it, but I think I know what it is. Honestly I don't care much that they didn't use bio hazard suits because there was no indication that they were dealing with a biological agent when they went in to the basestar. From their perspective it would have been difficult to imagine a virus could have caused all that and going in prepared would have seemed like overthinking things on the part of the writers. They dealt with the quarantine afterwards and that was fine. A little too much time compression but not nearly as annoying as FOTF or Epiphanies which really pissed me off. All of the above are technicalities which really don't matter much.
Sharon being inmune because of the baby was one detail I thought was pretty clever. I was in all honestly prepared to be annoyed because it seemed like a given that she would get infected and somehow her survival would have had something to do with the decision to not use the virus as aa weapon. I mean come on we all really know it wasn't going to be used or fail for some reason.
About Apollo I thought quite the contrary. He was well within character. Apollo has always been the standup guy for doing the right thing except for one little detail. He has NEVER given a shit about cylons. He has been itching to pop Sharon before, he was repulsed by the decision to reinstate her. He's a good guy but he has never really cared about a cylons right to anything. Like he said, they are just things that were built and programmed. All of a sudden he's presented with a big Easy button to end it all once and for all. No more running, no more fear, just concentrate on finding a home. Even for the most standup guy, the temptation is too great. Zareks's break of character bothered me a fair bit more than this.
Here's where it starts to bug me. This was an episode that really lent itself to some serious discussion on the controversy of using a weapon for genocide. Instead all we got was Helo making very good points.... and? That was it... The discussion for using it was not much more than Roslin saying, at least somebody will be left to hate us. I was hoping for a lot more debate on the issue. I mean, if your race of billions has been annihalated, you have only a handful of people left with the odds stacked unsurmountably against you, its not necessarily genocide its self defense, and possibly the only way. The cylons lost any right to NOT be annihalated once they crossed that line themselves. Had the decision to use it taken place during the occupation period then maybe because they weren't immediately intent on wiping them out. Now that they are back to their old tricks its different. Had the cylons retreated and stopped the chase, then maybe. But as long as they are chasing with the sole intent of annihalation, its pure survival. There's no point in proving you have the moral high ground if there will be no one left to remember it.
Finally Adama saying he's not going to persecute anyone, as sort of a way of saying he's relieved that choice was taken away from him really bugged me. I can really see where Ron Moore tried to go with this episode, and they idea was a good one, its just the execution failed.
I think I figured out what the overall problem was. Ron Moore reverted back to ST:TNG mode. This was an episode that opened up so much possiblity and instead it went like a Star Trek episode, completely neatly packaged and resolved at the end. Adama's comment of putting all of this behind him and not asking questions was like the final seal on the neat star trek package. This story line is closed, next...
That's basically why I lost all respect for Moore. Star Trek is unrepentant garbage. I previously labored under the apparently mistaken assumption that Moore wrote Star Trek that way because it's what Paramount wanted. Now I'm left wondering if he writes that way because he's just not a good writer.
On a lighter note. Did anyone notice the outside of Galactica's hull was all dented and all messed up during the close up shots? At least they got that little detail right.
Spoiler: The way I see it, the virus never would've worked. We saw what the Cylons did when a ship became plague ridden. They cut it off and blew it up. All that would've happened was that the second the first Cylon woke up on the RS II and confirmed that all of his fellows had been killed, they'd just send the Basestars back to the RS III (and the way the Cylons are acting now, its as good as certain there's an RS III), and scuttle the RS II. Then the baseships would've jumped back in and fired a flotilla of nukes at Galactica, because now the Cylons are really pissed off by what was, effectively, a terrorist attack with no military gain and high noncombatant casualties.
In the end, it would've been a stronger resolution to the episode, but I think that TBTB are going with the idea that the Cylons have stopped pursuing the human fleet and are, instead, just going in the same direction. Having such an accidental terrorist strike would've made it impossible for the Cylons not to go on a campaign of vengeance that would make "33" look like a polite disagreement about the sales tax rate.
Also, I think it was just be, but the blatant anti-Cylon racism is really starting to creep me out. I mean, I know that, at the beginning of the show, Adama was the only one who considered the Cylons thinking beings, and everyone else considered them the mechanical equivalent of wild animals with guns. And as time has gone on, there are maybe a half dozen people who have come to the same conclusion that the Cylons are, like it or not, more than just simple mechanisms (by my count, Adama, Tyrol, Helo, Baltar, Cottle, and Starbuck). But as for everyone else, yeash. Especially Lee. He really seems to have kicked it up a notch, even considering his lack of respect of the Cylons previously.
When they said "skinjob" I literally started to hear "nigger," and when Lee was spouting on about how the Cylons had no families and that Helo's daughter didn't count because she was half-human, it was like a window back in time. And not in a good way.
Really, the whole dehumanization of the Cylons became ridiculous in Downloaded, when Tigh said that Hera was a machine, not a baby, and Baltar shot back that she was "half machine and half human." That doesn't even mean anything! "Half machine." It's quite possibly the most moronic discussion ever. If you've got a little pink squirming crying human-looking lump of flesh with blood that cures cancer and is the result of biological reproduction, it's not a machine. That's quite possibly the most obvious scientific conclusion one could draw.
I'm surprised that this theme isn't getting more development. They're damned lucky that Adama understands exactly what the Cylons became, going back to their initial rebellion, because if any one of the 99% of the fleet with this juvenile cardboard-cutout mentality towards the Cylons was in charge, they wouldn't last ten seconds before making a fatal underestimation.
it's true what you say. But you forget...they are not human. Like it or not, they are still machines. Machines that created near-humans...but still machines.
Frankly, I'd be more than a little pissed if a machine went so far as to try to immitate human life. Look no further than "Artificial Intelligence" for how that pans out.
The saying goes "All humans are created equal". But theres a problem, God didn't create the Cylons...we did. I've no problem with them being robots. And I've no problem with them wiping the frakers off the face of the galaxy.
The racism doesn't bother in and of itself. What bothers me is how unrepentantly poorly it is written. If Lee were a quiet but equally trenchant racist who could not see cylons as human— or, perhaps more precisely, sentient— beings to the day he died, that would not be without historical precedent. Just look at otherwise decent— arguably even great— men in history who nevertheless remained, by contemporary standards, unapologetic racists throughout their entire lives: Jefferson, Lincoln, Churchill, etc. We can see that easily enough today with people who just write off raggies and muzzies as subhuman terrorists or simple animals.
So, strictly speaking, the concept isn't unrealistic, even if it is repugnant. What [i]is[/i] unrealistic and simply shitty writing is the way it's been executed so far: casually, without any critical engagement of any of the ramifications of the thematic matter involved. There are times— and this is one of them— where I wonder if Moore has even half a fucking clue what he has created.
As an addendum, the half machine thing honestly isn't as absurd as you think, and had it been written better, you would have realized it. Just look at the history of black, white, and mulatto interaction in South and Central America with regards to European colonization.
When you look at what topics RDM tries to tackle simultaneously in a single show, it's not surprizing that he has to cut corners. I think he bit more off than he can choke down and it shows.
The way I see it, BSG is about our own humanity and what defines it. Just look at the Cylons who are virtual copies of ourselves and yet the humans treat them like things (disregarding the fact that the Cylons tried to wipe out the entire human race).
Another question the show seems to ask: Are humanoid clones second-class citizens? Does the means of procreation define our humanity?
Once we humans are up against the wall, the inner swine comes to the surface and we'll do whatever is necessary to reach our goals. And no morals in the world will stand in the way once our own survival is at stake.
While the show has some rough edges, it does at least tackle existential questions that matter without giving all the answers. I don't recall any Star Trek episodes doing as much. I mean BSG makes Star Trek look like scifi for children.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Stingray [/i]
[B]When you look at what topics RDM tries to tackle simultaneously in a single show, it's not surprizing that he has to cut corners. I think he bit more off than he can choke down and it shows.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I think this is exactly it. Its like he has a list of social and political isue's he feels he needs to introduce into the show within a certain amount of time. He needs to just pick a few of them and expand on them. The show started in a very linear closely spaced time gaps and then moved to heavily compressed time lapses to be able to take it all in. When you take a look back the episodes that had the short time lapses were by far the best, all the heavily compressed ones have tended to be the least liked. I think he should start to take note.
I agree, they did bite off more than they could chew with the last episode. They obviously saw it as a great idea for an episode but once they got down to it, found that they'd worked themselves into a corner. Then we had the all nice and wrapped up end we got. It was far to chopped for my liking. There should have been more debate and I feel it was a thread they could have carried for a few episodes. Regarding Apollo's opinion I felt it would have fitted Tigh more. He is the one full of bile and hate. But then we have seen quiet enough of that from him since New Caprica. Also I would have expected Starbuck to have said something similar but again we've had that from her with the scenes with Tigh.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Frankly, I'd be more than a little pissed if a machine went so far as to try to immitate human life. Look no further than "Artificial Intelligence" for how that pans out.[/b][/QUOTE]
As I recall, the humans all died, but the robots lived on, and even restored some humans to life for a dramatically significant length of time.
But, really, the Cylons make the robots in AI, and even the replicants in Blade Runner, look like the animatronic Abraham Lincoln at Disney World. You literally could not tell that they aren't human, in any respect.
You say it's okay to kill them because of their mechanical origin. Imagine the following shocking revelation: The cylons are not actually synthetically made humans, but are, in actuality, human clones. The synthetic materials that Baltar's Cylon Detector found were just by-products of the cloning process. So instead of being completely robot-made "humans," they are real humans that were just indoctrinated by robots. Would that change anything when it came to the morality of killing "skinjobs?"
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Arethusa [/i]
[B]As an addendum, the half machine thing honestly isn't as absurd as you think, and had it been written better, you would have realized it. Just look at the history of black, white, and mulatto interaction in South and Central America with regards to European colonization. [/B][/QUOTE]
Oh, no, I caught the reference. It was the exaggeration that did it for me. Race doesn't even work like that in the real world, despite the simplistic assumption that it does. But when you've gotten to the point that you're defining a clearly biological specimen that is the child of a human, then you've just stretched the definition of "machine" too dang far. I could barely accept that the cylon agents were machines, by the method of their creation (empty bodies constructed and then kept in racks until ready to be imprinted with a mind is certainly not standard biological reproduction), but there's nothing of the machine about Hera.
Now, if Tigh had said "cylon" and not "machine" I probably wouldn't have batted an eyelash at it, since the cylons are no longer simple machines but a very unusual offshoot of humanity. I'm sorry, but the word "machine" means something, and no facet of its meaning applied to Hera. Not a single one.
Spoiler: In episode 3, when 3 talks to the terribly acted oracle, she says "There is no Zeus. No other god but god." This is a tenet of Muslim faith. They're drawing from all major monotheistic faiths for the cylons.
I agree that putting Starbuck in viper leading a CAP right after Adama told her she was dead to him was rather... unforgivable. But not as bad as putting the second highest ranking officers in the fleet, the ship's CAG— a pilot— in a fucking marine uniform, performing hostile ship to ship engagement. Or using him again to lead an execution squad. Good work, Ron Moore. Good work.
Spoiler: Starbucks situation was settled. Adama did not outright tell her to fuck off. She was given an ultimatum to shape up if she wanted to stay or get the hell out. She shaped up and thats why she's in the cockpit. The fact that she had no relevant role in this episode is kind of an indication that she's a little distanced from the old man. She would have been right up there with Lee and Helo during the discussion, and she's of around the same rank. Tigh on the other hand was given the same ultimatum. His last response said everything. I'm not sure I'm your friend or your X.O. anymore. He doesn't get to play X.O. anymore. He could of had he done the same as Starbuck, but he wont. Honestly I don't think Tigh will ever be X.O. again. And if he does it will probably be shortly before his death. As for Lee, well this goes back to the same old reason as to why he's somewhere that doesn't make sense in countless episodes. He's a star of the show and you've got to have him somewhere visible. Finding an unknown extra to fill in every menial lead marine role doesn't always make for good TV (or ratings).
It may make for better ratings, but it [i]certainly[/i] makes for more idiotic writing. This episode was hand carved by seventh generation Swedish master craftsmen from a solid block of clichés and plot holes.
It was bad on Bastile day. It was terrible in that equally terrible episode with terrorists in the bar. It was horrendous in Black Market. But when they use the same cheap tricks in an episode that is central to the narrative and what the show is about, it is nothing short of destructive.
Actually, Lee leading the two marine squads in the episode was an orphan of an eventually abandoned storyline where he and Dualla make up for getting soft by becoming hardcore marine badasses. Eventually, they decided it didn't quite work, but Lee has still ended up being a bit more bloodthirsty and more involved with the marines as a result of the preplanning that went into the story.
I guess that's the problem with working out episodes farther in advance. If you have a storyline you get rid of, the remains of it are stretched along two or three episodes rather than just a scene or two.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by David of Mac [/i]
[B]Actually, Lee leading the two marine squads in the episode was an orphan of an eventually abandoned storyline where he and Dualla make up for getting soft by becoming hardcore marine badasses. Eventually, they decided it didn't quite work, but Lee has still ended up being a bit more bloodthirsty and more involved with the marines as a result of the preplanning that went into the story.
I guess that's the problem with working out episodes farther in advance. If you have a storyline you get rid of, the remains of it are stretched along two or three episodes rather than just a scene or two. [/B][/QUOTE]
Not only do they butcher episodes due to time constraints, they also do not stick to their own plotlines.
As we have seen, the military is already short on Viper pilots and then they go and send some of their top pilots as part of a swat team on a basestar. Why is Lee Adama leading a group of marines? This makes no sense at all, Lee is too valuable an asset to be put so deliberately into harms way. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think a flight jock is trained in swat tactics. The next thing you'll see him do is repair the FTL engines when the plot requires it.
You know, one of the few restrictions of scifi is (as opposed to reality) that it has to make sense. :D
Well I don't think they have any shortage of pilots now with the entire pegasus crew brought over. They probably need to stack vipers one on top of the other to make them fit now! Doesn't make sense to put Lee to lead the squad but he has high rank and as Ron Moore put it, Starbuck and Lee are meant to be larger than life characters. So that means they get to go on field trips every now and then. Difference is Lee doesn't fuck up as frequently as starbuck. And you could say Adama trusts him to watch over Sharon in a sensitive mission.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vorlons in my Head [/i]
[B]Well I don't think they have any shortage of pilots now with the entire pegasus crew brought over. They probably need to stack vipers one on top of the other to make them fit now! Doesn't make sense to put Lee to lead the squad but he has high rank and as Ron Moore put it, Starbuck and Lee are meant to be larger than life characters. So that means they get to go on field trips every now and then. Difference is Lee doesn't fuck up as frequently as starbuck. And you could say Adama trusts him to watch over Sharon in a sensitive mission. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, I suppose you are right about the main cast being larger than life. I don't think anybody minds seeing more of Sharon. ;)
What I do like is that they've added Carl Lumbly to the cast. You may know him from the spy show "Alias" where he played the intense and charismatic Marcus Dixon.
This episode, and the last one, felt like a major "rush" - RDM seems to have rushed his way through them, hopefully in prepartion for something better. It's like he's pushing some facts at us, and getting them out of the way just to move on with the story. We had a massive blast with the first five episodes of this season, and it began fading in the sixth until it's ultimate weakest point now. I'm just hoping that RDM has something setup for the near future.
Its still good. My personal opinio is the show gets to have at most about 3 really weak episodes per season. Yuu can't expect all of them to be like resurection ship or Exodus. If we get more than that then its time to worry. So far we have the first five thumbs way up. One netral, which gets the thumbs up because it looked like it was heading in the right diraction for the most part. Then finally one stinker. But it still doesn't stink as bad as the worst S2 episodes. CLose but not quite. We're still good. The next one, "Hero" is looking like its going to be interesting and one of those information juicy episodes.
You know what's so sad about how RDM handles BSG? He more or less addresses all the points we've discussed so far in his pod casts commenting each episodes and explaining why he did what he did.
The only problem I have with RDM's approach is, he wouldn't have to do any explaining if the episodes had been planned and edited right to begin with. This is just a sloppy way to work. They get pre-vizualisations of the 3D sequences for crying out loud so nothing is left to chance, but the live action scenes don't get the same treatment. It's not like he's a rookie in the business, or is he?
Here's a novel idea, maybe he should spend more time actually doing the show than agreeing with the fan criticism he's getting plenty of. ;) Don't get me wrong, I like behind-the-scenes footage on DVD sets, but man, this has got nothing to do with it.
You'll find his latest pod casts here: [URL=http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/season03/]http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/season03/[/URL]
Slight change of topic but I sent an email to Bear McCreary last week asking him if there was any possibility of an episode cd release like with B5. Here was his responce:
"Honestly, I don't plan on ever releasing the
scores in their independent episodes. They just wouldn't make for exciting albums that way. However, there's a "bonus" album in the works that will
include tracks that didn't make Season 1, 2 or 3 CDs. It will probably be released this time next year.
-Bear"
Shame about the episode cd's but looking forward to the bonus album!
:cool:
Comments
That said, this episode pissed me off. A lot. And I am most fucking displeased.
The episode started off well. Interesting premise. I had some issues with the start. Say, for example, space marines assaulting a hostile environment without, you know, space suits. And carrying MP5s and SA80s. And I didn't appreciate the absence of any explanation for how an encephalitis could infect a centurion. But whatever; it was still a decent start.
Then we rush through quarantine. Ok, I can deal with that. Time's limited, even if that sort of thing is pretty serious stuff.
Then thoughtful, sad, introspective Apollo now finds genocide amusing good times and doesn't bat an eye when the writers turn him into a vehicle for The Big Genocide Debate.
Then the possibility of Sharon being kept alive and effectively imprisoned by the Colonial government is ditched, and you can almost see the deus ex machine crawl out of her ovaries.
Then Adama preps an assault plan involving biological weapons without spending any time to consider the possible ramifications outside of a brief conversation with the President.
Then Helo mutinies, murdering the captive cylons with another god from a machine.
Then Adama's cool with mutiny and avoiding genocide and doesn't even bother to reflect on it or talk to Helo.
And an extremely potent direction is squandered in one episode, and we are right back where we started. I wanted ten episode of chasing cylons scared shitless of a tiny ship packed with long range, uninterceptable biological weapons. I wanted debate and mutiny and questions about the nature of humanity's ugliness. I wanted 33 gone backwards with the Cylons living constantly in fear. I wanted humans brutally interrogating the Cylons like the Cylons had interrogated them. I wanted Pegasus revisited. But no, Ron Moore, you fucked me. You fucked me in the ass, and now we're back to good ol' end of episode reset.
Oh well. At least the stuff with Baltar's messianic torture and Sharon's loyalty was interesting.
[B] Spoiler:
The episode started off well. Interesting premise. I had some issues with the start. Say, for example, space marines assaulting a hostile environment without, you know, space suits. And carrying MP5s and SA80s. And I didn't appreciate the absence of any explanation for how an encephalitis could infect a centurion. But whatever; it was still a decent start.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Spoiler: I'm pretty sure they did explain it. The virus was said to affect neural workings of the brain so it affects the hybrid, which appears to what directly controls the centurions while they are onboard.
But for the most part I think you're right, the episode had a good premise with a lot of possibilities but I'm not entirely sure I like they way they went with a lot of aspects.
And damn, I was so sure Helo was going to go for an unscheduled spacewalk at the end.
[B] Spoiler: I had some issues with the start. Say, for example, space marines assaulting a hostile environment without, you know, space suits. And carrying MP5s and SA80s. And I didn't appreciate the absence of any explanation for how an encephalitis could infect a centurion.
Then we rush through quarantine. Ok, I can deal with that. Time's limited, even if that sort of thing is pretty serious stuff.[/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, I agree, there were a few inconsistencies as far as certain safety procedures (wrt bio-hazards) go and there have been instances before where the prop department took shortcuts and used contemporary gear and didn't even try to make it look extraterrestrial. The odds are astronomical to find the exact same designs once you leave the generic realm.
On the other hand, cutting off corners of books and sheets of paper makes no sense whatsoever. It's not like it's preventing paper cuts or something like that. :D
[QUOTE][B] Spoiler: Then thoughtful, sad, introspective Apollo now finds genocide amusing good times and doesn't bat an eye when the writers turn him into a vehicle for The Big Genocide Debate.[/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, it's completely out of character, I'm not sure how they thought they could get away with that. At least he's back in shape now. ;)
[QUOTE][B] Spoiler: Then the possibility of Sharon being kept alive and effectively imprisoned by the Colonial government is ditched, and you can almost see the deus ex machine crawl out of her ovaries.
Then Adama preps an assault plan involving biological weapons without spending any time to consider the possible ramifications outside of a brief conversation with the President.
Then Helo mutinies, murdering the captive cylons with another god from a machine.
Then Adama's cool with mutiny and avoiding genocide and doesn't even bother to reflect on it or talk to Helo.[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not sure how they can get away with that either and still have Athena walk around freely. Very sloppy indeed.
[QUOTE][B] Spoiler: And an extremely potent direction is squandered in one episode, and we are right back where we started. I wanted ten episode of chasing cylons scared shitless of a tiny ship packed with long range, uninterceptable biological weapons. I wanted debate and mutiny and questions about the nature of humanity's ugliness. I wanted 33 gone backwards with the Cylons living constantly in fear. I wanted humans brutally interrogating the Cylons like the Cylons had interrogated them. I wanted Pegasus revisited. But no, Ron Moore, you fucked me. You fucked me in the ass, and now we're back to good ol' end of episode reset.
Oh well. At least the stuff with Baltar's messianic torture and Sharon's loyalty was interesting. [/B][/QUOTE]
I wonder if with all his attempts to do the unexpected RDM will not end up ruining this show. I'm ok with blending current issues with scifi, but once it's too real, things stop being entertaining and people will stop watching.
[B]I don't have a problem with it being real. Real is fine. Allegory is not. And worse, really, is cheap, poorly executed Allegory of the Week, which would basically make it West Wing in Space. [/B][/QUOTE]
By real, I meant copying current events covered in the news. Scifi shows have been doing this as far as I can remember.
RDM isn't breaking new ground when he's falling back to basics just to get the job done. But then I'm still curious to see how the next episodes will play out. :)
In all honesty, the last episode all but ended the show for me. Without question, it destroyed all respect I had for Moore.
Sharon being inmune because of the baby was one detail I thought was pretty clever. I was in all honestly prepared to be annoyed because it seemed like a given that she would get infected and somehow her survival would have had something to do with the decision to not use the virus as aa weapon. I mean come on we all really know it wasn't going to be used or fail for some reason.
About Apollo I thought quite the contrary. He was well within character. Apollo has always been the standup guy for doing the right thing except for one little detail. He has NEVER given a shit about cylons. He has been itching to pop Sharon before, he was repulsed by the decision to reinstate her. He's a good guy but he has never really cared about a cylons right to anything. Like he said, they are just things that were built and programmed. All of a sudden he's presented with a big Easy button to end it all once and for all. No more running, no more fear, just concentrate on finding a home. Even for the most standup guy, the temptation is too great. Zareks's break of character bothered me a fair bit more than this.
Here's where it starts to bug me. This was an episode that really lent itself to some serious discussion on the controversy of using a weapon for genocide. Instead all we got was Helo making very good points.... and? That was it... The discussion for using it was not much more than Roslin saying, at least somebody will be left to hate us. I was hoping for a lot more debate on the issue. I mean, if your race of billions has been annihalated, you have only a handful of people left with the odds stacked unsurmountably against you, its not necessarily genocide its self defense, and possibly the only way. The cylons lost any right to NOT be annihalated once they crossed that line themselves. Had the decision to use it taken place during the occupation period then maybe because they weren't immediately intent on wiping them out. Now that they are back to their old tricks its different. Had the cylons retreated and stopped the chase, then maybe. But as long as they are chasing with the sole intent of annihalation, its pure survival. There's no point in proving you have the moral high ground if there will be no one left to remember it.
Finally Adama saying he's not going to persecute anyone, as sort of a way of saying he's relieved that choice was taken away from him really bugged me. I can really see where Ron Moore tried to go with this episode, and they idea was a good one, its just the execution failed.
I think I figured out what the overall problem was. Ron Moore reverted back to ST:TNG mode. This was an episode that opened up so much possiblity and instead it went like a Star Trek episode, completely neatly packaged and resolved at the end. Adama's comment of putting all of this behind him and not asking questions was like the final seal on the neat star trek package. This story line is closed, next...
[img]http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i184/goons_squad/speechhsm.gif[/img]
In the end, it would've been a stronger resolution to the episode, but I think that TBTB are going with the idea that the Cylons have stopped pursuing the human fleet and are, instead, just going in the same direction. Having such an accidental terrorist strike would've made it impossible for the Cylons not to go on a campaign of vengeance that would make "33" look like a polite disagreement about the sales tax rate.
Also, I think it was just be, but the blatant anti-Cylon racism is really starting to creep me out. I mean, I know that, at the beginning of the show, Adama was the only one who considered the Cylons thinking beings, and everyone else considered them the mechanical equivalent of wild animals with guns. And as time has gone on, there are maybe a half dozen people who have come to the same conclusion that the Cylons are, like it or not, more than just simple mechanisms (by my count, Adama, Tyrol, Helo, Baltar, Cottle, and Starbuck). But as for everyone else, yeash. Especially Lee. He really seems to have kicked it up a notch, even considering his lack of respect of the Cylons previously.
When they said "skinjob" I literally started to hear "nigger," and when Lee was spouting on about how the Cylons had no families and that Helo's daughter didn't count because she was half-human, it was like a window back in time. And not in a good way.
Really, the whole dehumanization of the Cylons became ridiculous in Downloaded, when Tigh said that Hera was a machine, not a baby, and Baltar shot back that she was "half machine and half human." That doesn't even mean anything! "Half machine." It's quite possibly the most moronic discussion ever. If you've got a little pink squirming crying human-looking lump of flesh with blood that cures cancer and is the result of biological reproduction, it's not a machine. That's quite possibly the most obvious scientific conclusion one could draw.
I'm surprised that this theme isn't getting more development. They're damned lucky that Adama understands exactly what the Cylons became, going back to their initial rebellion, because if any one of the 99% of the fleet with this juvenile cardboard-cutout mentality towards the Cylons was in charge, they wouldn't last ten seconds before making a fatal underestimation.
Frankly, I'd be more than a little pissed if a machine went so far as to try to immitate human life. Look no further than "Artificial Intelligence" for how that pans out.
The saying goes "All humans are created equal". But theres a problem, God didn't create the Cylons...we did. I've no problem with them being robots. And I've no problem with them wiping the frakers off the face of the galaxy.
:D
So, strictly speaking, the concept isn't unrealistic, even if it is repugnant. What [i]is[/i] unrealistic and simply shitty writing is the way it's been executed so far: casually, without any critical engagement of any of the ramifications of the thematic matter involved. There are times— and this is one of them— where I wonder if Moore has even half a fucking clue what he has created.
As an addendum, the half machine thing honestly isn't as absurd as you think, and had it been written better, you would have realized it. Just look at the history of black, white, and mulatto interaction in South and Central America with regards to European colonization.
The way I see it, BSG is about our own humanity and what defines it. Just look at the Cylons who are virtual copies of ourselves and yet the humans treat them like things (disregarding the fact that the Cylons tried to wipe out the entire human race).
Another question the show seems to ask: Are humanoid clones second-class citizens? Does the means of procreation define our humanity?
Once we humans are up against the wall, the inner swine comes to the surface and we'll do whatever is necessary to reach our goals. And no morals in the world will stand in the way once our own survival is at stake.
While the show has some rough edges, it does at least tackle existential questions that matter without giving all the answers. I don't recall any Star Trek episodes doing as much. I mean BSG makes Star Trek look like scifi for children.
[B]When you look at what topics RDM tries to tackle simultaneously in a single show, it's not surprizing that he has to cut corners. I think he bit more off than he can choke down and it shows.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I think this is exactly it. Its like he has a list of social and political isue's he feels he needs to introduce into the show within a certain amount of time. He needs to just pick a few of them and expand on them. The show started in a very linear closely spaced time gaps and then moved to heavily compressed time lapses to be able to take it all in. When you take a look back the episodes that had the short time lapses were by far the best, all the heavily compressed ones have tended to be the least liked. I think he should start to take note.
[B]Frankly, I'd be more than a little pissed if a machine went so far as to try to immitate human life. Look no further than "Artificial Intelligence" for how that pans out.[/b][/QUOTE]
As I recall, the humans all died, but the robots lived on, and even restored some humans to life for a dramatically significant length of time.
But, really, the Cylons make the robots in AI, and even the replicants in Blade Runner, look like the animatronic Abraham Lincoln at Disney World. You literally could not tell that they aren't human, in any respect.
You say it's okay to kill them because of their mechanical origin. Imagine the following shocking revelation: The cylons are not actually synthetically made humans, but are, in actuality, human clones. The synthetic materials that Baltar's Cylon Detector found were just by-products of the cloning process. So instead of being completely robot-made "humans," they are real humans that were just indoctrinated by robots. Would that change anything when it came to the morality of killing "skinjobs?"
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Arethusa [/i]
[B]As an addendum, the half machine thing honestly isn't as absurd as you think, and had it been written better, you would have realized it. Just look at the history of black, white, and mulatto interaction in South and Central America with regards to European colonization. [/B][/QUOTE]
Oh, no, I caught the reference. It was the exaggeration that did it for me. Race doesn't even work like that in the real world, despite the simplistic assumption that it does. But when you've gotten to the point that you're defining a clearly biological specimen that is the child of a human, then you've just stretched the definition of "machine" too dang far. I could barely accept that the cylon agents were machines, by the method of their creation (empty bodies constructed and then kept in racks until ready to be imprinted with a mind is certainly not standard biological reproduction), but there's nothing of the machine about Hera.
Now, if Tigh had said "cylon" and not "machine" I probably wouldn't have batted an eyelash at it, since the cylons are no longer simple machines but a very unusual offshoot of humanity. I'm sorry, but the word "machine" means something, and no facet of its meaning applied to Hera. Not a single one.
What the hell happened there?
Anyway, I started to think about some interesting correlations between Cylons and Single Deiity faiths like Christianity and others.
The colonials have multiple deities, the cylons believe in a singular one.
The skin jobs might even qualify as a definition in the Christian faith of glorified bodies that have been redeemed.
It is interesting that they call the ships ressurection ships and not reincarnation ships. :D
I dunno, I'm not saying it's an attempt to equate the Cylons as Christians in the BSG environment by any means, but it IS an interesting observation.
I agree that putting Starbuck in viper leading a CAP right after Adama told her she was dead to him was rather... unforgivable. But not as bad as putting the second highest ranking officers in the fleet, the ship's CAG— a pilot— in a fucking marine uniform, performing hostile ship to ship engagement. Or using him again to lead an execution squad. Good work, Ron Moore. Good work.
It was bad on Bastile day. It was terrible in that equally terrible episode with terrorists in the bar. It was horrendous in Black Market. But when they use the same cheap tricks in an episode that is central to the narrative and what the show is about, it is nothing short of destructive.
I guess that's the problem with working out episodes farther in advance. If you have a storyline you get rid of, the remains of it are stretched along two or three episodes rather than just a scene or two.
[B]Actually, Lee leading the two marine squads in the episode was an orphan of an eventually abandoned storyline where he and Dualla make up for getting soft by becoming hardcore marine badasses. Eventually, they decided it didn't quite work, but Lee has still ended up being a bit more bloodthirsty and more involved with the marines as a result of the preplanning that went into the story.
I guess that's the problem with working out episodes farther in advance. If you have a storyline you get rid of, the remains of it are stretched along two or three episodes rather than just a scene or two. [/B][/QUOTE]
Not only do they butcher episodes due to time constraints, they also do not stick to their own plotlines.
As we have seen, the military is already short on Viper pilots and then they go and send some of their top pilots as part of a swat team on a basestar. Why is Lee Adama leading a group of marines? This makes no sense at all, Lee is too valuable an asset to be put so deliberately into harms way. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think a flight jock is trained in swat tactics. The next thing you'll see him do is repair the FTL engines when the plot requires it.
You know, one of the few restrictions of scifi is (as opposed to reality) that it has to make sense. :D
[B]Well I don't think they have any shortage of pilots now with the entire pegasus crew brought over. They probably need to stack vipers one on top of the other to make them fit now! Doesn't make sense to put Lee to lead the squad but he has high rank and as Ron Moore put it, Starbuck and Lee are meant to be larger than life characters. So that means they get to go on field trips every now and then. Difference is Lee doesn't fuck up as frequently as starbuck. And you could say Adama trusts him to watch over Sharon in a sensitive mission. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, I suppose you are right about the main cast being larger than life. I don't think anybody minds seeing more of Sharon. ;)
What I do like is that they've added Carl Lumbly to the cast. You may know him from the spy show "Alias" where he played the intense and charismatic Marcus Dixon.
The only problem I have with RDM's approach is, he wouldn't have to do any explaining if the episodes had been planned and edited right to begin with. This is just a sloppy way to work. They get pre-vizualisations of the 3D sequences for crying out loud so nothing is left to chance, but the live action scenes don't get the same treatment. It's not like he's a rookie in the business, or is he?
Here's a novel idea, maybe he should spend more time actually doing the show than agreeing with the fan criticism he's getting plenty of. ;) Don't get me wrong, I like behind-the-scenes footage on DVD sets, but man, this has got nothing to do with it.
You'll find his latest pod casts here: [URL=http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/season03/]http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/season03/[/URL]
"Honestly, I don't plan on ever releasing the
scores in their independent episodes. They just wouldn't make for exciting albums that way. However, there's a "bonus" album in the works that will
include tracks that didn't make Season 1, 2 or 3 CDs. It will probably be released this time next year.
-Bear"
Shame about the episode cd's but looking forward to the bonus album!
:cool: