[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vorlons in my Head [/i]
[B]The reason the raptors could not do the jumps attached to the hulls of the ships is because........
Its more dramatic to have them have to find the ship and risk loosing it. [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, I accepted that and moved on, but I'm always tempted by my inner geek to attempt a nerdy discussion on technobabble.
ugh, a year ago I would have never concieved of ever agreeing with something like this but I have to so definately agree with 2, 3, 4, and 5. very strongly with 2 and 4.
[i]2. A retcon turns Adama into the cause of the Cylons' attack on the twelve colonies, thus making him both improbably important and too much of a bastard.[/i]
Thank you for totally missing the point of the story. Adama wasn't the cause. He [i]felt[/i] he was the cause. Adama is always too hard on himself. In the season premiere, Sharon told him as much, since it was clear that he couldn't get over leaving people behind on That Fraking Planet. It happened again in "Unfinished Business" when he announced in front of the gods and everyone that he was the sole cause of the suffering of the cylon occupation, by not being enough of a hardass to keep his crew on Galactica.
Heck, back in "Water," he tells Lee that a man can't afford to live with guilt, and that he has no regrets. The Laura torpedos that with her story at the end of President Adar's guilt over screwing up and causing the deaths of innocent people, saying in so many words that despite the brave face a leader (such as Adama) may put on, he is still human.
Adama is always second-guessing himself, thinking he could've and should've made better choices, but he doesn't let it show. That's what makes him such a good leader.
[i]3. Eick promises next season will bring more flashback-heavy episodes that focus on romantic entanglements and/or childhood trauma.[/i]
Source it. Right now. Because the only thing I know of that could possibly apply to is two episodes in the second half of Season 3, one which will have Adama reconsidering his life choices in relation to his late ex-wife (because he's "too much of a bastard"), and one which will show Starbuck, featuring the mother who we know from prior episodes was a total psycho who abused Kara, including once [i]slamming a piano lid on her fingers, breaking all ten of them[/i], presumably so she wouldn't follow her father into something as wussy as music.
[i]4. Entire episodes are clumsily devoted to single-word social issues like "torture" and "genocide."[/i]
Bullshit. The only "torture" episode I can think of is "Flesh and Bone" from the much-lauded season one, which I don't believe anyone had a problem with. Further, to call "A Measure of Salvation" the "genocide" episode has the same problem as calling "The Captain's Hand" the "abortion" episode. [i]The situations that arise within them are in no way applicable to reality[/i]. There is no place on earth suffering from such an acute baby shortage that abortion could be outlawed on those grounds, nor is there any persecuted group capable of inflicting total indiscriminate death on its oppressors. And not to be too nit-pickey, episodes are hardly "entirely devoted" to those issues (if at all), unless, of course, Baltar screwing his fantasy woman to distract himself of having a needle stuck into his brain is supposed to be some sort of commentary on the Darfur situation?
Seriously, did this guy actually watch the episode, or just read the TV Guide slug line?
[i]5. Too much intimacy with the mysterious Cylon enemy in their SM dungeon ship makes them seem campy rather than scary.[/i]
Arguable. The way I see it, they can either have the cylons as cypherous boogiemen, which will make the show annoyingly one-note, or they can try doing something vaguely science-fictioning with them.
Really, that article had the air of being written by someone who lives with someone who watches the show, and catches snippets of it on the way to the kitchen.
Your straying off from what the complaint of his reviews are. Which for the most part are pretty accurate and simply hit the nail right on the head. And I agree with some of it as do a very large portion of viewers. The article is meant to being a reference to Season 3 episodes only, thats the point, S1 and most of S2 were fine.
#2 is a direct reference Hero, not any other episode. It was a forced story to make things artificially more dramatic. David Eick wanted to stir shit up and did it the cheap way. It messed with a part of the story that everyone considers to have been near perfect and simply didn't need messing with.
#3 It's in one of the god knows how many dozen interviews with David Eick and I specifically refer to it because I very specifically remember reading it. I do admit this is not a biggy but I do find the writers rely way too heavily on the flashback style (Scar for example) and flashback driven epsisodes (Black Market, Unfinished Business). These episodes either fail completely like Black Market or are average at best. The only thing that saved Unfinished business is that a potentially disastrous episode was saved by the quality of the actors performance.
#4 Torture didn't quite fit in there but he's not refering to Flesh and Bone (sorry, edit, said he was refering to it). Its more in the sense of the detention camps in NC. Its the genocide one that sticks out. Unlike the abortion episode the difference is the genocide one is an issue that is hotly at the center of the premise of the show. It was something that really should have been deeply fused into the story and expanded, and it was handled so bad it came off as being thrown in there for the sake of dealing with difficult subjects. It was so painfully obvious in that episode that it could have been flat out called The Genocide Episode. Then the slate was wiped clean and they moved on to the next dilema. They didn't even bother with following up on it, because as RDM put it in the podcast, Helo is a popular character and he didn't want to mess with him. Themain reason I gave The Passage some credit is because they actually had the guts to kill one of the liked characters. A lot of folks are pissed they did but I'm glad they went through with it.
#5 yeah, seriously, I don't mind cylon threesomes, but they need to do something about that. The mystery and sense of danger from them is fading. Ruthless ball crusher Six needs to either come back or the cyclon master plan better be good as whatever the deal with the missing 5 is. The current state of affairs with the Cylons really makes you think, where these the same people who nuked the entire human race? The rag tag fleet is being chased by the lovestar. I'm looking forward to more Dean Stockwell. His character still has a sense of rutlessness and sincere disdain for the humans which balances out the others.
Now you see, the thing is I still think the show is better than pretty much anything out there now by a long shot. That does not mean everything is peachy and they are not capable of doing WAY better buy just trying alittle harder. After the first 5 episodes of this season, its fallen into a bland zone that isn't terrrible but its visibly lost its way to what made it soooo good in season 1 and 2.0.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by David of Mac [/i]
[B]
Really, that article had the air of being written by someone who lives with someone who watches the show, and catches snippets of it on the way to the kitchen. [/B][/QUOTE]
Sorry but I've got to disagree on that strongly. Its very clear and I can see exactly were he's coming from which shows the writer has not only watched S3, but has a very good memory of the first two to compare it to. He's done his homework. And I'm not just posting that because I thought it was cute. Its because it echoes very closely and consistantly the sentiments being echoed by a lot of die hard viewers.
I was in the middle of typing up a lengthy reply, but ViMH more or less covered everything (albeit with far more moderation than I would apply). Suffice it to say that I find all of the Wired article's criticism accurate if too temperate, and a show that despite its flaws was fucking superb in episode 4 of this season has now turned to unbelievable shit.
I remember, mid season 2, reading an article that essentially asked, considering "they have a plan", if Moore has one too. It seemed, at the time, a silly question to ask. What competent writer would get into such an enormous project without a plan, without vision, without passion, and without dedication to his project? I guess we have an answer now.
[edit]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vorlons in my Head [/i]
[B]Sorry but I've got to disagree on that strongly. Its very clear and I can see exactly were he's coming from which shows the writer has not only watched S3, but has a very good memory of the first two to compare it to. He's done his homework. And I'm not just posting that because I thought it was cute. Its because it echoes very closely and consistantly the sentiments being echoed by a lot of die hard viewers. [/B][/QUOTE]
To be blunt, he was just being arrogant for the sake of arrogance.
I am wondering, though, who else shares similar sentiments. Admittedly, I haven't been watching the SciFi forums much, but what I read there in response to Unfinished Business was rather far removed from erudition ("this is dumb, it had Starbuck and Lee zomg", etc).
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Sanfam [/i]
[B]Well, I accepted that and moved on, but I'm always tempted by my inner geek to attempt a nerdy discussion on technobabble. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yep, I know what you mean, as long as they don't make it toooooo unbelievable I can let the smaller stuff go :D I'm tempted the same way. Like why does the Pegasus need coolant for the FTL, yet that never seems to be a problem with the raptors. Ok, yeah so that can be a explained by a little but of dialogue, but in Captains Hand it almost bordered on goofy like it was a steam powered train they were fixing. When they show the vipers 20mm cartridges you realize a Viper is really too small to actually carry more than like 20 rounds per gun. Also the cylon gun sounds are taken from a minigun firing 6000 rounds per minute. The audible fire rate doesn't actually match the visual one, but it does sound cool. We could make a list of pointless technogeeky stuff that doesn't always make sense just for the fun of it. :D
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Arethusa [/i]
[B]I was in the middle of typing up a lengthy reply, but ViMH more or less covered everything (albeit with far more moderation than I would apply). Suffice it to say that I find all of the Wired article's criticism accurate if too temperate, and a show that despite its flaws was fucking superb in episode 4 of this season has now turned to unbelievable shit.
I remember, mid season 2, reading an article that essentially asked, considering "they have a plan", if Moore has one too. It seemed, at the time, a silly question to ask. What competent writer would get into such an enormous project without a plan, without vision, without passion, and without dedication to his project? I guess we have an answer now.
[edit]
To be blunt, he was just being arrogant for the sake of arrogance.
I am wondering, though, who else shares similar sentiments. Admittedly, I haven't been watching the SciFi forums much, but what I read there in response to Unfinished Business was rather far removed from erudition ("this is dumb, it had Starbuck and Lee zomg", etc). [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, those are essentially the most hotly (more than usual) debated points now on the sci fi forums but its not just that. Some of the latest episode reviews which traditionally bordered on fantically positive have started poking at it, some more subtly than others.
I suppose it does require some familiarity with the culture on the SciFi forums, then.
You know, I recall Moore talking a lot about how he didn't show up to class at Cornell and got kicked out. It was a story that seemed tacitly designed emphasize what a talented free spirit he is, or something, all because he didn't show up to class. And after the last six or so episodes, it occurs to me that maybe [i]he fucking should have[/i].
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Arethusa [/i]
[B]I suppose it does require some familiarity with the culture on the SciFi forums, then.
You know, I recall Moore talking a lot about how he didn't show up to class at Cornell and got kicked out. It was a story that seemed tacitly designed emphasize what a talented free spirit he is, or something, all because he didn't show up to class. And after the last six or so episodes, it occurs to me that maybe [i]he fucking should have[/i]. [/B][/QUOTE]
RDM is most certainly no Isaac Asimov, Arthur C. Clarke or Carl Sagan... RDM is to scifi what KFC is to chicken. :D
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Stingray [/i]
[B]RDM is most certainly no Isaac Asimov, Arthur C. Clarke or Carl Sagan... RDM is to scifi what KFC is to chicken. :D
Some like that, some don't. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, TV and film are a mass production fast food kind of environment.
I think we all like the initial premise of each of the SciFi universes that come into being, but then the machine kicks in, and before long things just start to get overwhelmed with deadlines and/or deviation from the first love...
That and you will always have a difference between the author and the reader/viewer as to where the story should go.
Ok so no one else picked up on 5th in that last episode?? Come on guys I thought you lot were sc fi watchers ;)
And as for other SG1 actors (now theres a hint), one of the pilots from the last episode (who arrived on board Galactica from the Pegasus, can be seen stepping off the Raptor with the Pegasus KAG) the guy with the blondish hair (was there when they ate food round the table), he had a few appearances as a Tokra in SG1. I actually thought he'd been killed off but he's floating around still.
So far I've liked how they've killed of certain characters. I was surprised when they nailed the XO of Pegasus. I liked him, was expecting him and Tigh to become best drinking buds etc but they killed him off. At least they haven't done a Whedon and killed off one of the main stars in the first season (and then suffer a fan backlash as a result :) ).
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JackN [/i]
[B]Yeah, TV and film are a mass production fast food kind of environment.
I think we all like the initial premise of each of the SciFi universes that come into being, but then the machine kicks in, and before long things just start to get overwhelmed with deadlines and/or deviation from the first love...
That and you will always have a difference between the author and the reader/viewer as to where the story should go. [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, but no. American tv and movies apparently are, but that is by no means holy writ. There are indie films and tv shows that manage to not sell out and turn to shit. The issue is not purely one of "where the story should go", but of what the show, as art, should [i]be[/i]. And Moore unfortunately made it clear that he probably doesn't understand the words in the question.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Falcon1 [/i]
[B]So far I've liked how they've killed of certain characters. I was surprised when they nailed the XO of Pegasus. I liked him, was expecting him and Tigh to become best drinking buds etc but they killed him off. At least they haven't done a Whedon and killed off one of the main stars in the first season (and then suffer a fan backlash as a result :) ). [/B][/QUOTE]
At least Whedon did it with purpose, even if it seems simplistic. The deaths on BSG always seem forced, melodramatic contrivances of the Crisis of the Week (eg Billy, Pegasus XO— hell, they even managed to make Ellen's we-hope-none-of-you-saw-House-of-Sand-and-Fog death scene laborious and weak).
And, really, they seem to have a much worse kind of backlash on their hands now.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vorlons in my Head [/i]
[B]#2 is a direct reference Hero, not any other episode.[/quote][/b]
I realize that. He said a) that it made Adama too important, which it doesn't, because the attack wasn't actually his fault, and b) that it made him too much of a bastard, when in actuality, it made him too [i]little[/i] of a bastard by showing his inability to get over something that wasn't his fault. I then supported my second assertion with evidence from elsewhere in the series, so it didn't seem like I was pulling Adama's guilt complex out of my ass.
[quote][b]#3 It's in one of the god knows how many dozen interviews with David Eick and I specifically refer to it because I very specifically remember reading it.[/b][/quote]
Yes, I remember it too. I also remember that describing it as "next season" was wrong, and that saying "more flashback-heavy episodes that focus on romantic entanglements and/or childhood trauma" was misdirected bullshit. It makes it sound like there will be more than there are going to be, and misrepresents at least one of the two that are actually happening.
It's like describing that early episode of Babylon 5 where Sheridan's sister visits as "backwards-looking garbage focusing on a romantic entanglement." No, it focused on Sheridan's issues with being a widower, and I assume that "A Day In The Life" will focus on Adama's issues with being a divorced widower who has to work with his screwed-up son every day.
[quote][b]#4 Torture didn't quite fit in there but he's not refering to Flesh and Bone (sorry, edit, said he was refering to it). Its more in the sense of the detention camps in NC.[/quote][/b]
Then it's not an "entire episode" and he's exaggerating in order to make his point seem unassailable in the absence of actual legitimate criticism of appropriately damming strength.. I don't like that.
[quote][b]Its the genocide one that sticks out. Unlike the abortion episode the difference is the genocide one is an issue that is hotly at the center of the premise of the show. It was something that really should have been deeply fused into the story and expanded, and it was handled so bad it came off as being thrown in there for the sake of dealing with difficult subjects. [/quote][/b]
But they didn't deal with it! They couldn't, nor did they even attempt to, because it is in no way applicable to reality. There is no race of people that could be argued to actually be machines that are indistinguishable in every respect from people, and are thus okay to butcher like rats. If they wanted to make a statement on genocide, then they would need to do it in a totally different way for it to even make sense. Something with an oppressed colony like the one Zarak was from, for instance.
[quote][b]Sorry but I've got to disagree on that strongly. Its very clear and I can see exactly were he's coming from which shows the writer has not only watched S3, but has a very good memory of the first two to compare it to. He's done his homework. And I'm not just posting that because I thought it was cute. Its because it echoes very closely and consistantly the sentiments being echoed by a lot of die hard viewers.[/b][/quote]
No, I don't think so. And here's why.
[b][i]8. Rather than developing characters via personal transformation, character development is charted via hair length, presence/absence of beards, and weight gain/loss.[/b][/i]
Because the only difference between "I married a moron" Starbuck and "How's the wife, Colonel?" Starbuck is the length of her hair. The only difference between "If it was you, we'd never leave" Adama and "Get your fat ass out of my sight!" Adama is the porn 'stache. And the only difference between "You pushed your son into a viper and it killed him" Lee and "Boo-hoo, Daddy busted my balls" Lee is a latex double chin.
The way I see it, he either doesn't watch the show with any real attention paid, or he is watching it for something other than what it's trying to provide.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Arethusa[/i]
[b]Suffice it to say that I find all of the Wired article's criticism accurate if too temperate, and a show that despite its flaws was fucking superb in episode 4 of this season has now turned to unbelievable shit.[/b][/quote]
I'll just pretend that you picked an episode [i]other[/i] than the big special-effects-fest of the year as your example of "superb" so I don't make a cheap shot.
[quote][b]You know, I recall Moore talking a lot about how he didn't show up to class at Cornell and got kicked out. It was a story that seemed tacitly designed emphasize what a talented free spirit he is, or something, all because he didn't show up to class. And after the last six or so episodes, it occurs to me that maybe [i]he fucking should have.[/i][/b][/quote]
[QUOTE]
At least Whedon did it with purpose, even if it seems simplistic. The deaths on BSG always seem forced, melodramatic contrivances of the Crisis of the Week (eg Billy, Pegasus XO— hell, they even managed to make Ellen's we-hope-none-of-you-saw-House-of-Sand-and-Fog death scene laborious and weak).
And, really, they seem to have a much worse kind of backlash on their hands now. [/B][/QUOTE]
I wasn't saying Whedon did it in a bad way. He did it very well. It was just a great shame to lose Doyle as he was a great character and much loved by fans (and for me great to see an Irish actor be able to use his real accent and not the pretend Hollywood Orish that Boreanz used for his back in Ireland flashbacks). Sad the guys dead now.
I think we all agree that the BSG writers choak and struggle when it comes to these things. They should stick to the action stuff, at least that kicks ass.
You have horribly, horribly, horribly overblown expectations, and you just should stop watching anything that resembles story-based media before you decide to commit suicide.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by RedAssAg05 [/i]
[B]A thoughtful rebuttle, DoM; you've done a good job of tempering the original author's remarks, and backed it up. I for one agree with you. [/B][/QUOTE]
I second that. And also DoM's last post (I'd write more, but I have to get to class). :p
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by David of Mac [/i]
[B][/b]
I realize that. He said a) that it made Adama too important, which it doesn't, because the attack wasn't actually his fault, and b) that it made him too much of a bastard, when in actuality, it made him too [i]little[/i] of a bastard by showing his inability to get over something that wasn't his fault. I then supported my second assertion with evidence from elsewhere in the series, so it didn't seem like I was pulling Adama's guilt complex out of my ass.[/quote]
You see, thats the problem, you're over analyzing things that are really of no consequence to the comment, even if the wording wasn't the best. It doesn't matter whether Adama was or wasn't the cause of the attack. Like everything in BSG its somewhat subject to interpretation. He wasn't the cause, but he could have been the last straw or one of the factors. He might have even been the final factor even if he was forced into the situation. Anyway thats besides the point. It doesn't matter how he felt about it either or how he felt in similar situations. The core of the problem is the Adama character was placed in completely unecessary situation to artificialy try to add more unneeded relevance and drama to a character who doesn't need it. There was simply no need to go force feed a lousy past story to the viewer that puts Adama in a situation where now it just so happens that he was in a position to have had some influence on the events leading to the attacks. I can just picture the writers saying, hey wouldn't it be cool if we just threw a wrench into things and make it look like Adama MIGHT have had some relevance to the attacks, just for the hell of it.
[quote][i]
It makes it sound like there will be more than there are going to be, and misrepresents at least one of the two that are actually happening.[/i][/quote]
Subject to opinion but more flashback episodes are already too much. The flashback episodes don't work too well and more than one a season IMO already feels like too much. It was used too much in 2.5. It was already used too much with a single episode in S3. More flashbacks to go flesh out yet more unnecessary backstories are unnecessary for the same reason it didn't work with Adama on Hero and the same way it was uneccessary to give Kat that whole background. Yes I know they didn't flashback there but I'm sure all of you are intelligent enough to get the point. But you can feel free to disagree with me on that, which you do.
Torture and genocide. Torture worked in the first episodes, the genocide did not work in MoS. I stand by what I said for MoS and a few pages back most of you were agreeing with it so its unecessary to rehash that. The episode was handled like a bad ST:TNG episode where the word of the day was genocide. Its not so much a stab at the torture subject as it is to the writers comments that they will deal with socially relevant issues such as suicide bomber, torture, genocide, and so on. It works on some but it doesn't work on others because rather than implementing stuff that might have some true relevance to the plot it just comes off as implementing it for the sake of holding on to the idea that the show is a mirror of social issues.
[quote][i]I'll just pretend that you picked an episode [i]other[/i] than the big special-effects-fest of the year as your example of "superb" so I don't make a cheap shot.[/i][/quote]
Please, please, pleeaaaaaase. Give me a break. Are you saying anything since those epidoes has actually been better this season? Exodus II was the only real CGI fest, it was the most exiting episode so far, certainly not the BEST episode. While none of those episode match the best of season 1 and 2, the whole sequence up to collaborators worked REALLY well because it stuck to what made season one and two good. It had the right flow and feel of the show. Thats why everyone up to that episode felt the show was back on track. Ever since then its gone into the same sort of limbo that made the middle of 2.5 so lackluster. The only episode with some sort of redemption was Unfinished Business. I dare anyone here to tell me with a straight face that the episodes and writing after collaborators has been at the same level as previous seasons. Sorry they have not. If you say yes, then go back and watch from the beginning and get back to me when you are reminded of whats missing.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vertigo_1 [/i]
[B]I like BSG, and I'm not going to apologize for it.
Oh, and I'd just like to give a big "HI!!!" to you guys from BTRL/Game Warden! Not everyone here thinks Galactica has gone down the crapper. [/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vertigo_1 [/i]
[B]I like BSG, and I'm not going to apologize for it. [/B][/QUOTE]
Likewise. I'm able to enjoy every episode, even the ones that are obviously not as good.
Why?
Because I don't have any expectations when I watch each one, I don't try to guess at what may happen or what the story will be. So I just watch each episode as it happens and I'm happy with that.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by WORF [/i]
[B]Likewise. I'm able to enjoy every episode, even the ones that are obviously not as good.
Why?
Because I don't have any expectations when I watch each one, I don't try to guess at what may happen or what the story will be. So I just watch each episode as it happens and I'm happy with that.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Space Ghost [/i]
[B]Couldn't have said it better myself. [/B][/QUOTE]
Awesome. So the secret to enjoying a now-shitty show is to set your standards so consistently low you can't even tell they exist. How [i]effective[/i].
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Arethusa [/i]
[B]Awesome. So the secret to enjoying a now-shitty show is to set your standards so consistently low you can't even tell they exist. How [i]effective[/i]. [/B][/QUOTE]
"Shitty" is your opinion, not mine. My standards are still pretty high, but not so much so that I find no joy in anything.
Comments
[B]Oh god I hope they would kill Starbuck soon. [/B][/QUOTE]
I hope she takes the president with her...
[B]The reason the raptors could not do the jumps attached to the hulls of the ships is because........
Its more dramatic to have them have to find the ship and risk loosing it. [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, I accepted that and moved on, but I'm always tempted by my inner geek to attempt a nerdy discussion on technobabble.
[url]http://blog.wired.com/tableofmalcontents/2006/12/is_battlestar_g.html[/url]
[i]2. A retcon turns Adama into the cause of the Cylons' attack on the twelve colonies, thus making him both improbably important and too much of a bastard.[/i]
Thank you for totally missing the point of the story. Adama wasn't the cause. He [i]felt[/i] he was the cause. Adama is always too hard on himself. In the season premiere, Sharon told him as much, since it was clear that he couldn't get over leaving people behind on That Fraking Planet. It happened again in "Unfinished Business" when he announced in front of the gods and everyone that he was the sole cause of the suffering of the cylon occupation, by not being enough of a hardass to keep his crew on Galactica.
Heck, back in "Water," he tells Lee that a man can't afford to live with guilt, and that he has no regrets. The Laura torpedos that with her story at the end of President Adar's guilt over screwing up and causing the deaths of innocent people, saying in so many words that despite the brave face a leader (such as Adama) may put on, he is still human.
Adama is always second-guessing himself, thinking he could've and should've made better choices, but he doesn't let it show. That's what makes him such a good leader.
[i]3. Eick promises next season will bring more flashback-heavy episodes that focus on romantic entanglements and/or childhood trauma.[/i]
Source it. Right now. Because the only thing I know of that could possibly apply to is two episodes in the second half of Season 3, one which will have Adama reconsidering his life choices in relation to his late ex-wife (because he's "too much of a bastard"), and one which will show Starbuck, featuring the mother who we know from prior episodes was a total psycho who abused Kara, including once [i]slamming a piano lid on her fingers, breaking all ten of them[/i], presumably so she wouldn't follow her father into something as wussy as music.
[i]4. Entire episodes are clumsily devoted to single-word social issues like "torture" and "genocide."[/i]
Bullshit. The only "torture" episode I can think of is "Flesh and Bone" from the much-lauded season one, which I don't believe anyone had a problem with. Further, to call "A Measure of Salvation" the "genocide" episode has the same problem as calling "The Captain's Hand" the "abortion" episode. [i]The situations that arise within them are in no way applicable to reality[/i]. There is no place on earth suffering from such an acute baby shortage that abortion could be outlawed on those grounds, nor is there any persecuted group capable of inflicting total indiscriminate death on its oppressors. And not to be too nit-pickey, episodes are hardly "entirely devoted" to those issues (if at all), unless, of course, Baltar screwing his fantasy woman to distract himself of having a needle stuck into his brain is supposed to be some sort of commentary on the Darfur situation?
Seriously, did this guy actually watch the episode, or just read the TV Guide slug line?
[i]5. Too much intimacy with the mysterious Cylon enemy in their SM dungeon ship makes them seem campy rather than scary.[/i]
Arguable. The way I see it, they can either have the cylons as cypherous boogiemen, which will make the show annoyingly one-note, or they can try doing something vaguely science-fictioning with them.
Really, that article had the air of being written by someone who lives with someone who watches the show, and catches snippets of it on the way to the kitchen.
[B]Oh, dear, let's have a look at 2, 3, 4, and 5.
[/B][/QUOTE]
A thoughtful rebuttle, DoM; you've done a good job of tempering the original author's remarks, and backed it up. I for one agree with you.
#2 is a direct reference Hero, not any other episode. It was a forced story to make things artificially more dramatic. David Eick wanted to stir shit up and did it the cheap way. It messed with a part of the story that everyone considers to have been near perfect and simply didn't need messing with.
#3 It's in one of the god knows how many dozen interviews with David Eick and I specifically refer to it because I very specifically remember reading it. I do admit this is not a biggy but I do find the writers rely way too heavily on the flashback style (Scar for example) and flashback driven epsisodes (Black Market, Unfinished Business). These episodes either fail completely like Black Market or are average at best. The only thing that saved Unfinished business is that a potentially disastrous episode was saved by the quality of the actors performance.
#4 Torture didn't quite fit in there but he's not refering to Flesh and Bone (sorry, edit, said he was refering to it). Its more in the sense of the detention camps in NC. Its the genocide one that sticks out. Unlike the abortion episode the difference is the genocide one is an issue that is hotly at the center of the premise of the show. It was something that really should have been deeply fused into the story and expanded, and it was handled so bad it came off as being thrown in there for the sake of dealing with difficult subjects. It was so painfully obvious in that episode that it could have been flat out called The Genocide Episode. Then the slate was wiped clean and they moved on to the next dilema. They didn't even bother with following up on it, because as RDM put it in the podcast, Helo is a popular character and he didn't want to mess with him. Themain reason I gave The Passage some credit is because they actually had the guts to kill one of the liked characters. A lot of folks are pissed they did but I'm glad they went through with it.
#5 yeah, seriously, I don't mind cylon threesomes, but they need to do something about that. The mystery and sense of danger from them is fading. Ruthless ball crusher Six needs to either come back or the cyclon master plan better be good as whatever the deal with the missing 5 is. The current state of affairs with the Cylons really makes you think, where these the same people who nuked the entire human race? The rag tag fleet is being chased by the lovestar. I'm looking forward to more Dean Stockwell. His character still has a sense of rutlessness and sincere disdain for the humans which balances out the others.
Now you see, the thing is I still think the show is better than pretty much anything out there now by a long shot. That does not mean everything is peachy and they are not capable of doing WAY better buy just trying alittle harder. After the first 5 episodes of this season, its fallen into a bland zone that isn't terrrible but its visibly lost its way to what made it soooo good in season 1 and 2.0.
[B]
Really, that article had the air of being written by someone who lives with someone who watches the show, and catches snippets of it on the way to the kitchen. [/B][/QUOTE]
Sorry but I've got to disagree on that strongly. Its very clear and I can see exactly were he's coming from which shows the writer has not only watched S3, but has a very good memory of the first two to compare it to. He's done his homework. And I'm not just posting that because I thought it was cute. Its because it echoes very closely and consistantly the sentiments being echoed by a lot of die hard viewers.
I remember, mid season 2, reading an article that essentially asked, considering "they have a plan", if Moore has one too. It seemed, at the time, a silly question to ask. What competent writer would get into such an enormous project without a plan, without vision, without passion, and without dedication to his project? I guess we have an answer now.
[edit]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vorlons in my Head [/i]
[B]Sorry but I've got to disagree on that strongly. Its very clear and I can see exactly were he's coming from which shows the writer has not only watched S3, but has a very good memory of the first two to compare it to. He's done his homework. And I'm not just posting that because I thought it was cute. Its because it echoes very closely and consistantly the sentiments being echoed by a lot of die hard viewers. [/B][/QUOTE]
To be blunt, he was just being arrogant for the sake of arrogance.
I am wondering, though, who else shares similar sentiments. Admittedly, I haven't been watching the SciFi forums much, but what I read there in response to Unfinished Business was rather far removed from erudition ("this is dumb, it had Starbuck and Lee zomg", etc).
[B]Well, I accepted that and moved on, but I'm always tempted by my inner geek to attempt a nerdy discussion on technobabble. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yep, I know what you mean, as long as they don't make it toooooo unbelievable I can let the smaller stuff go :D I'm tempted the same way. Like why does the Pegasus need coolant for the FTL, yet that never seems to be a problem with the raptors. Ok, yeah so that can be a explained by a little but of dialogue, but in Captains Hand it almost bordered on goofy like it was a steam powered train they were fixing. When they show the vipers 20mm cartridges you realize a Viper is really too small to actually carry more than like 20 rounds per gun. Also the cylon gun sounds are taken from a minigun firing 6000 rounds per minute. The audible fire rate doesn't actually match the visual one, but it does sound cool. We could make a list of pointless technogeeky stuff that doesn't always make sense just for the fun of it. :D
[B]I was in the middle of typing up a lengthy reply, but ViMH more or less covered everything (albeit with far more moderation than I would apply). Suffice it to say that I find all of the Wired article's criticism accurate if too temperate, and a show that despite its flaws was fucking superb in episode 4 of this season has now turned to unbelievable shit.
I remember, mid season 2, reading an article that essentially asked, considering "they have a plan", if Moore has one too. It seemed, at the time, a silly question to ask. What competent writer would get into such an enormous project without a plan, without vision, without passion, and without dedication to his project? I guess we have an answer now.
[edit]
To be blunt, he was just being arrogant for the sake of arrogance.
I am wondering, though, who else shares similar sentiments. Admittedly, I haven't been watching the SciFi forums much, but what I read there in response to Unfinished Business was rather far removed from erudition ("this is dumb, it had Starbuck and Lee zomg", etc). [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, those are essentially the most hotly (more than usual) debated points now on the sci fi forums but its not just that. Some of the latest episode reviews which traditionally bordered on fantically positive have started poking at it, some more subtly than others.
You know, I recall Moore talking a lot about how he didn't show up to class at Cornell and got kicked out. It was a story that seemed tacitly designed emphasize what a talented free spirit he is, or something, all because he didn't show up to class. And after the last six or so episodes, it occurs to me that maybe [i]he fucking should have[/i].
[B]I suppose it does require some familiarity with the culture on the SciFi forums, then.
You know, I recall Moore talking a lot about how he didn't show up to class at Cornell and got kicked out. It was a story that seemed tacitly designed emphasize what a talented free spirit he is, or something, all because he didn't show up to class. And after the last six or so episodes, it occurs to me that maybe [i]he fucking should have[/i]. [/B][/QUOTE]
RDM is most certainly no Isaac Asimov, Arthur C. Clarke or Carl Sagan... RDM is to scifi what KFC is to chicken. :D
Some like that, some don't.
[B]RDM is most certainly no Isaac Asimov, Arthur C. Clarke or Carl Sagan... RDM is to scifi what KFC is to chicken. :D
Some like that, some don't. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, TV and film are a mass production fast food kind of environment.
I think we all like the initial premise of each of the SciFi universes that come into being, but then the machine kicks in, and before long things just start to get overwhelmed with deadlines and/or deviation from the first love...
That and you will always have a difference between the author and the reader/viewer as to where the story should go.
And as for other SG1 actors (now theres a hint), one of the pilots from the last episode (who arrived on board Galactica from the Pegasus, can be seen stepping off the Raptor with the Pegasus KAG) the guy with the blondish hair (was there when they ate food round the table), he had a few appearances as a Tokra in SG1. I actually thought he'd been killed off but he's floating around still.
So far I've liked how they've killed of certain characters. I was surprised when they nailed the XO of Pegasus. I liked him, was expecting him and Tigh to become best drinking buds etc but they killed him off. At least they haven't done a Whedon and killed off one of the main stars in the first season (and then suffer a fan backlash as a result :) ).
[B]Yeah, TV and film are a mass production fast food kind of environment.
I think we all like the initial premise of each of the SciFi universes that come into being, but then the machine kicks in, and before long things just start to get overwhelmed with deadlines and/or deviation from the first love...
That and you will always have a difference between the author and the reader/viewer as to where the story should go. [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, but no. American tv and movies apparently are, but that is by no means holy writ. There are indie films and tv shows that manage to not sell out and turn to shit. The issue is not purely one of "where the story should go", but of what the show, as art, should [i]be[/i]. And Moore unfortunately made it clear that he probably doesn't understand the words in the question.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Falcon1 [/i]
[B]So far I've liked how they've killed of certain characters. I was surprised when they nailed the XO of Pegasus. I liked him, was expecting him and Tigh to become best drinking buds etc but they killed him off. At least they haven't done a Whedon and killed off one of the main stars in the first season (and then suffer a fan backlash as a result :) ). [/B][/QUOTE]
At least Whedon did it with purpose, even if it seems simplistic. The deaths on BSG always seem forced, melodramatic contrivances of the Crisis of the Week (eg Billy, Pegasus XO— hell, they even managed to make Ellen's we-hope-none-of-you-saw-House-of-Sand-and-Fog death scene laborious and weak).
And, really, they seem to have a much worse kind of backlash on their hands now.
[B]#2 is a direct reference Hero, not any other episode.[/quote][/b]
I realize that. He said a) that it made Adama too important, which it doesn't, because the attack wasn't actually his fault, and b) that it made him too much of a bastard, when in actuality, it made him too [i]little[/i] of a bastard by showing his inability to get over something that wasn't his fault. I then supported my second assertion with evidence from elsewhere in the series, so it didn't seem like I was pulling Adama's guilt complex out of my ass.
[quote][b]#3 It's in one of the god knows how many dozen interviews with David Eick and I specifically refer to it because I very specifically remember reading it.[/b][/quote]
Yes, I remember it too. I also remember that describing it as "next season" was wrong, and that saying "more flashback-heavy episodes that focus on romantic entanglements and/or childhood trauma" was misdirected bullshit. It makes it sound like there will be more than there are going to be, and misrepresents at least one of the two that are actually happening.
It's like describing that early episode of Babylon 5 where Sheridan's sister visits as "backwards-looking garbage focusing on a romantic entanglement." No, it focused on Sheridan's issues with being a widower, and I assume that "A Day In The Life" will focus on Adama's issues with being a divorced widower who has to work with his screwed-up son every day.
[quote][b]#4 Torture didn't quite fit in there but he's not refering to Flesh and Bone (sorry, edit, said he was refering to it). Its more in the sense of the detention camps in NC.[/quote][/b]
Then it's not an "entire episode" and he's exaggerating in order to make his point seem unassailable in the absence of actual legitimate criticism of appropriately damming strength.. I don't like that.
[quote][b]Its the genocide one that sticks out. Unlike the abortion episode the difference is the genocide one is an issue that is hotly at the center of the premise of the show. It was something that really should have been deeply fused into the story and expanded, and it was handled so bad it came off as being thrown in there for the sake of dealing with difficult subjects. [/quote][/b]
But they didn't deal with it! They couldn't, nor did they even attempt to, because it is in no way applicable to reality. There is no race of people that could be argued to actually be machines that are indistinguishable in every respect from people, and are thus okay to butcher like rats. If they wanted to make a statement on genocide, then they would need to do it in a totally different way for it to even make sense. Something with an oppressed colony like the one Zarak was from, for instance.
[quote][b]Sorry but I've got to disagree on that strongly. Its very clear and I can see exactly were he's coming from which shows the writer has not only watched S3, but has a very good memory of the first two to compare it to. He's done his homework. And I'm not just posting that because I thought it was cute. Its because it echoes very closely and consistantly the sentiments being echoed by a lot of die hard viewers.[/b][/quote]
No, I don't think so. And here's why.
[b][i]8. Rather than developing characters via personal transformation, character development is charted via hair length, presence/absence of beards, and weight gain/loss.[/b][/i]
Because the only difference between "I married a moron" Starbuck and "How's the wife, Colonel?" Starbuck is the length of her hair. The only difference between "If it was you, we'd never leave" Adama and "Get your fat ass out of my sight!" Adama is the porn 'stache. And the only difference between "You pushed your son into a viper and it killed him" Lee and "Boo-hoo, Daddy busted my balls" Lee is a latex double chin.
The way I see it, he either doesn't watch the show with any real attention paid, or he is watching it for something other than what it's trying to provide.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Arethusa[/i]
[b]Suffice it to say that I find all of the Wired article's criticism accurate if too temperate, and a show that despite its flaws was fucking superb in episode 4 of this season has now turned to unbelievable shit.[/b][/quote]
I'll just pretend that you picked an episode [i]other[/i] than the big special-effects-fest of the year as your example of "superb" so I don't make a cheap shot.
[quote][b]You know, I recall Moore talking a lot about how he didn't show up to class at Cornell and got kicked out. It was a story that seemed tacitly designed emphasize what a talented free spirit he is, or something, all because he didn't show up to class. And after the last six or so episodes, it occurs to me that maybe [i]he fucking should have.[/i][/b][/quote]
God save me from the keyboard warriors.
At least Whedon did it with purpose, even if it seems simplistic. The deaths on BSG always seem forced, melodramatic contrivances of the Crisis of the Week (eg Billy, Pegasus XO— hell, they even managed to make Ellen's we-hope-none-of-you-saw-House-of-Sand-and-Fog death scene laborious and weak).
And, really, they seem to have a much worse kind of backlash on their hands now. [/B][/QUOTE]
I wasn't saying Whedon did it in a bad way. He did it very well. It was just a great shame to lose Doyle as he was a great character and much loved by fans (and for me great to see an Irish actor be able to use his real accent and not the pretend Hollywood Orish that Boreanz used for his back in Ireland flashbacks). Sad the guys dead now.
I think we all agree that the BSG writers choak and struggle when it comes to these things. They should stick to the action stuff, at least that kicks ass.
You have horribly, horribly, horribly overblown expectations, and you just should stop watching anything that resembles story-based media before you decide to commit suicide.
[B]A thoughtful rebuttle, DoM; you've done a good job of tempering the original author's remarks, and backed it up. I for one agree with you. [/B][/QUOTE]
I second that. And also DoM's last post (I'd write more, but I have to get to class). :p
[B][/b]
I realize that. He said a) that it made Adama too important, which it doesn't, because the attack wasn't actually his fault, and b) that it made him too much of a bastard, when in actuality, it made him too [i]little[/i] of a bastard by showing his inability to get over something that wasn't his fault. I then supported my second assertion with evidence from elsewhere in the series, so it didn't seem like I was pulling Adama's guilt complex out of my ass.[/quote]
You see, thats the problem, you're over analyzing things that are really of no consequence to the comment, even if the wording wasn't the best. It doesn't matter whether Adama was or wasn't the cause of the attack. Like everything in BSG its somewhat subject to interpretation. He wasn't the cause, but he could have been the last straw or one of the factors. He might have even been the final factor even if he was forced into the situation. Anyway thats besides the point. It doesn't matter how he felt about it either or how he felt in similar situations. The core of the problem is the Adama character was placed in completely unecessary situation to artificialy try to add more unneeded relevance and drama to a character who doesn't need it. There was simply no need to go force feed a lousy past story to the viewer that puts Adama in a situation where now it just so happens that he was in a position to have had some influence on the events leading to the attacks. I can just picture the writers saying, hey wouldn't it be cool if we just threw a wrench into things and make it look like Adama MIGHT have had some relevance to the attacks, just for the hell of it.
[quote][i]
It makes it sound like there will be more than there are going to be, and misrepresents at least one of the two that are actually happening.[/i][/quote]
Subject to opinion but more flashback episodes are already too much. The flashback episodes don't work too well and more than one a season IMO already feels like too much. It was used too much in 2.5. It was already used too much with a single episode in S3. More flashbacks to go flesh out yet more unnecessary backstories are unnecessary for the same reason it didn't work with Adama on Hero and the same way it was uneccessary to give Kat that whole background. Yes I know they didn't flashback there but I'm sure all of you are intelligent enough to get the point. But you can feel free to disagree with me on that, which you do.
Torture and genocide. Torture worked in the first episodes, the genocide did not work in MoS. I stand by what I said for MoS and a few pages back most of you were agreeing with it so its unecessary to rehash that. The episode was handled like a bad ST:TNG episode where the word of the day was genocide. Its not so much a stab at the torture subject as it is to the writers comments that they will deal with socially relevant issues such as suicide bomber, torture, genocide, and so on. It works on some but it doesn't work on others because rather than implementing stuff that might have some true relevance to the plot it just comes off as implementing it for the sake of holding on to the idea that the show is a mirror of social issues.
[quote][i]I'll just pretend that you picked an episode [i]other[/i] than the big special-effects-fest of the year as your example of "superb" so I don't make a cheap shot.[/i][/quote]
Please, please, pleeaaaaaase. Give me a break. Are you saying anything since those epidoes has actually been better this season? Exodus II was the only real CGI fest, it was the most exiting episode so far, certainly not the BEST episode. While none of those episode match the best of season 1 and 2, the whole sequence up to collaborators worked REALLY well because it stuck to what made season one and two good. It had the right flow and feel of the show. Thats why everyone up to that episode felt the show was back on track. Ever since then its gone into the same sort of limbo that made the middle of 2.5 so lackluster. The only episode with some sort of redemption was Unfinished Business. I dare anyone here to tell me with a straight face that the episodes and writing after collaborators has been at the same level as previous seasons. Sorry they have not. If you say yes, then go back and watch from the beginning and get back to me when you are reminded of whats missing.
Gods save us from the BSG apologists.
Oh, and I'd just like to give a big "HI!!!" to you guys from BTRL/Game Warden! Not everyone here thinks Galactica has gone down the crapper.
[B]I like BSG, and I'm not going to apologize for it.
Oh, and I'd just like to give a big "HI!!!" to you guys from BTRL/Game Warden! Not everyone here thinks Galactica has gone down the crapper. [/B][/QUOTE]
what's your SN on GW? I'm Dukeman42 over there.
[B]I like BSG, and I'm not going to apologize for it. [/B][/QUOTE]
Ditto. :D
[B]I like BSG, and I'm not going to apologize for it. [/B][/QUOTE]
Likewise. I'm able to enjoy every episode, even the ones that are obviously not as good.
Why?
Because I don't have any expectations when I watch each one, I don't try to guess at what may happen or what the story will be. So I just watch each episode as it happens and I'm happy with that.
Worf
[B]Likewise. I'm able to enjoy every episode, even the ones that are obviously not as good.
Why?
Because I don't have any expectations when I watch each one, I don't try to guess at what may happen or what the story will be. So I just watch each episode as it happens and I'm happy with that.
Worf [/B][/QUOTE]
Couldn't have said it better myself.
[B]Couldn't have said it better myself. [/B][/QUOTE]
Awesome. So the secret to enjoying a now-shitty show is to set your standards so consistently low you can't even tell they exist. How [i]effective[/i].
[B]Awesome. So the secret to enjoying a now-shitty show is to set your standards so consistently low you can't even tell they exist. How [i]effective[/i]. [/B][/QUOTE]
"Shitty" is your opinion, not mine. My standards are still pretty high, but not so much so that I find no joy in anything.
It always says NO... to everything...
:p
[B]Sometimes I think I'm talking to a broken Magic 8 Ball...
It always says NO... to everything...
:p [/B][/QUOTE]
Hey! I like things! There are things that I like!
Not my fault most stuff sucks.