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Relations with Islamic minorities?
Tyvar
Next best thing to a St. Bernard
in Zocalo v2.0
alright, in Croxis' RSS feed thread he posted a link to this article that just drove me nuts.
[URL=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=400605&in_page_id=1770&ct=5]Muslim leaders demand sharia law in the UK[/URL]
This made me livid.
The whole supposition of the modern western experience, the thing weve basicly been fighting for, is rule of law, and universality of law.
The notion that there is one common body of laws that apply to everyone, equally, regardless of political, religious, economic or social levels. Thats at the core of modern western legal philosophical thinking.
Imposing Shria law, for even family issues, is a total refutation of that principle.
Even those this article says that all they wanted is sharia "family law" not beheading of people or stoning or other such things. In principle it sounds reasonable right? well lets examine one bit of family law.
For example in western countries, both men and women can file for divorce, under Sharia "family" law, only the male can initiate divorce, and he can do it quite easily (he has to proclaim, in front of credible witnesses, "I divorce you" three times, thats it.
How do people think we should handle this issue? Im curious to know. Frankly my only solution would be to inform the muslim community not only no, but hell no, and if they want to live under sharia law they should return to what ever nations they or their forefathers originaly came from.
[URL=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=400605&in_page_id=1770&ct=5]Muslim leaders demand sharia law in the UK[/URL]
This made me livid.
The whole supposition of the modern western experience, the thing weve basicly been fighting for, is rule of law, and universality of law.
The notion that there is one common body of laws that apply to everyone, equally, regardless of political, religious, economic or social levels. Thats at the core of modern western legal philosophical thinking.
Imposing Shria law, for even family issues, is a total refutation of that principle.
Even those this article says that all they wanted is sharia "family law" not beheading of people or stoning or other such things. In principle it sounds reasonable right? well lets examine one bit of family law.
For example in western countries, both men and women can file for divorce, under Sharia "family" law, only the male can initiate divorce, and he can do it quite easily (he has to proclaim, in front of credible witnesses, "I divorce you" three times, thats it.
How do people think we should handle this issue? Im curious to know. Frankly my only solution would be to inform the muslim community not only no, but hell no, and if they want to live under sharia law they should return to what ever nations they or their forefathers originaly came from.
Comments
This doesn't conflict with people who are pushing for social improvements either, despite croxis' fears, unless such people are pushing for said improvements to be a separate law for a certain class of people, in which case such change shouldn't be made.
[B]I'm with Tyvar. Hell no. If you live in a country where you're the foreigner, and you don't like the way things work, move. [/B][/QUOTE]
Or if it's like in Finland, you pretty much have to move yourself unless you have the ability to start a genocide. :D
Oh well, I dont mind.. 90 % of the people here deserve what they're getting. Wish there would be a war or two soon.
of course I fully expect our idiot government to make "concessions" in the name of "harmony" and "cultural intergration". they should bloody well intergrate with our culture, NOT the other way round!
/rant
[B]I agree with you guys. My opinion is: if you dont like the laws, then dont bloody well come here! They have absolutely no right to demand that we live by anything other than our own laws!:mad:
of course I fully expect our idiot government to make "concessions" in the name of "harmony" and "cultural intergration". they should bloody well intergrate with our culture, NOT the other way round!
/rant [/B][/QUOTE]
I couldnt agree more, but i'm still a bit bitter with muslim types about that whole flying airplanes into buildings where my wife worked thing. kinda pissed me off.
so i'm not very receptive to any of their concerns.
That means no special rights, no special treatment, no special social welfare loitering. You work and live like the rest of us and we're a ok all the way! and if you want something changed to suit your beliefs, leave the f*cking country.
There was this one incident back in the 90's where we had the cutest concrete "traffic stoppers" in our capital shaped like pigs and some even painted pink. They were hilarious, the guy or gal who invented them should be commended and the whole shebang. They cheered up the whole dank grey view of the city wherever they were posted. The kicker is that they were removed from the streets pretty quickly... since some islamics complained that they shouldn't be open on the streets like that since the "pig is a filthy animal".
My response to this would have been to remove the pigs from the streets... And change them with different kinds of "stoppers": Statues depicting an islamic follower praying, bent towards the Mecca on a mat. (The pigs and anyone average-sized on their knees bowing like the likes do are roughly the same size). ...And the little amusing detail that would be another, integral part of the statue would be an accurate depiction of a life-sized woman with a huge strap-on. Fucking the bent-over believer in the ass.
That would have been poetic justice.
We now have turtles which are also as cute, but... it's the principle that counts here. Too bad the city high-ups didn't have balls to draw the line when they had the chance.
If you don't like it, move the fuck out of my country. That's what I say. You're welcome to come here if you want to, but adapt. Adapt or get bent.
I really hope the government doesn't give in, because who knows what other cultural changes will be demanded?
Worf
[B]I really hope the government doesn't give in, because who knows what other cultural changes will be demanded?
Worf [/B][/QUOTE]
oh but they will. they've got their head's so far up their own asses that lump in their throat is their nose
Cesar holds thumb down for this one...
Seriously...
My answer:
Fuck no!
Simple as that...
Because we take them for granted, many of us do not bother to understand the history, tradition, and reasoning behind these things. Is there a fundamental, honest and true reason to prefer western law over Islamic?
At some point, any legal system would end up imposing the will of some people over another person. All it takes is one guy to snatch a purse and not turn himself in. What makes us right? If it is a simple case of majority rule, then we are doomed by demographics. Europe is dying, and the average Palestinian woman has something like eight children.
Just something to think about.
Nick
Id even what Data Crystal says, there is alot more in the koran to indicate the subservience of women, hell the plight and status of women in mohmmeds time, under his direct rule, is pretty well historicaly documented.
Part of the rise of secularism in the west was that the Bible itself had a little to much to say about women being somewhat subserviant to men.
I honestly think that if the western moral, philosophical and legal traditions are lost, then the world will have entered a new dark age.
Croxis and company wont be arguing to legalize gay marrige anymore, they will be avoiding death penalties for supporting homosexuality. Everybody's arguments against A# in favor of evolution versus creationism will stop, cause the Mullahs back A#'s side.
And last but not least, beer, now illegal. thats really gonna tick everybody off.
How do we stop it?
You know, a friend of mine once offered a viable solution. Quote: "The whole middle-East should be bombed with nukes until it all glows green and afterwards built full of F1-tracks." Unquote.
With all the crap surfacing in all these years after hearing that quote, I'm starting to side with the mate.
The man's an official now in the Finnish Defence Forces, if I'm not mistaken. Good call. :D
The men could go on medical experimentations or digging a tunnel to the earths core.
How do we stop it? [/B][/QUOTE]
George Bush, Tony Blair and Vladimir Putin recently had a conference about just this thing,
what do we do about the Middle East..
Putin's answer, Give them Absolute sovrignty in their native lands, remove the israelies, let the muslims have the entire area on the condition that all muslims have to live there, the land is theirs, but all of them must return there..
Tony Blair built on this idea by saying that once that is done, to continue to ease tension between them and the rest of the world, that a 50 foot high wall should be build around the entire region.
George bush then says... Fill it with water.. Problem Solved
you know, when aldous huxley made that quote in my sig, i think he hit the nail on the head
[B]id agree with that proposal.
you know, when aldous huxley made that quote in my sig, i think he hit the nail on the head [/B][/QUOTE]
maybe we should give them all soma.
One idea I heard that I wish would work would be for the Israelis to make the Arabs dependent on them economically, to use them as an increasingly skilled and intertwined work force while themselves providing the technical background and access to foreign markets. Unfortunately, when your government's stated reason for existence is to drive the Jews into the sea (Hamas), such cooperation is at best, a dream.
One of the saddest things about the whole story is that Islam was not always so repressive. I'm sure we have all read about how Baghdad was at one point the one of the most beautiful and advanced cities in the world, and how the Muslims were responsible for preserving many works of classical Greece. I mean, these are the people who invented algebra. The entire world uses arabic numerals.
What I think happened was that as the intensity of belief and desire to follow the word of Mohhamed as the word of God died down, traditional Arab cultural tendencies began to reassert themselves. They are now and have always been a tribal society, where strength and honor outweigh law and order. Even honor is negotiable, since bribery is pretty much institutionalized.
Anyway, in a tribal society, there has to be a 'big man,' and most all the sheiks, caliphs, and Baathist presidents from about 800 AD (I refuse to use the term CE, the calendar is still based on the birth of Christ, whether you name him or not) until now have been men who did whatever it took to become the man at the top of the totem pole and take advantage of all the perks that come with it.
Of course, to remain as the 'big man,' it is in your best interest to make society ever more repressive and controlled, and the more this trend becomes institutionalized, the more progress of any kind grinds to a halt. The same thing happened to China.
If we can't figure out a practical way to change them, we end up choosing between genocide and being overrun.
Nick
while some of these 'solutions' that we've been tossing out for a laugh have been just for a laugh and not (entirely) serious, i do think that the best thing we (the west) could do right now would be to stop our interference, pull out (except for humanitarian aid) and let them sort it out for themselves.
Is it Israel that is the issue or is there something else underlying the whole thing?
[B]nah, just build a big wall around the middle east, toss in a few more weapons and let them kill each other. the winner gets to be Refa's slave:p [/B][/QUOTE]
Sounds similar to my Great Dome of the Middle East proposal. Because these days, we can fly.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ShadowDancer [/i]
[B]while some of these 'solutions' that we've been tossing out for a laugh have been just for a laugh and not (entirely) serious, i do think that the best thing we (the west) could do right now would be to stop our interference, pull out (except for humanitarian aid) and let them sort it out for themselves. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's what I think would be the best approach. Leave them alone, let them grow up on their own. If they earn their own free governments, like many countries in the west did, they may have more respect for what they have. But they have to earn what [i]they[/i] want and earn it [i]their[/i] way. No forced democracy, no saying "our idea of the ideal government is the best, you must do it our way." If, ultimately, they decide they want to be a 14th century Islamic state, let them. It's far from a perfect solution and chances are good that said muslim states will decide they need to expand and have to be pushed back, but at least outside of the pushing back we don't have to waste resources on them.
[B]Sounds similar to my Great Dome of the Middle East proposal. Because these days, we can fly.
. [/B][/QUOTE]
it also sounds very much like Brockian Ultra-Cricket..
Its rules (as told from the book Life the Universe and Everything) are as follows:
Rule One: Grow at least three extra legs. You won't need them, but it keeps the crowds amused.
Rule Two: Find one good Brockian Ultra-Cricket player and clone him off a few times. This saves an enormous amount of tedious selection and training.
Rule Three: Put your team and the opposing team in a large field and build a high wall round them.
The reason for this is that, though the game is a major spectator sport, the frustration experienced by the audience at not actually being able to see what's going on leads them to imagine that it's a lot more exciting than it actually is. A crowd that has just watched a rather humdrum game experiences far less life-affirmation than a crowd that believes it has just missed the most dramatic event in sporting history.
Rule Four: Throw lots of assorted items of sporting equipment over the walls for the players. Anything will do - cricket bats, basecube bats, tennis guns, skis, anything you can get a good swing with.
Rule five: The players should now lay about themselves for all they are worth with whatever they find to hand. Whenever a player scores a 'hit' on another player, he should immediately run away and apologize from a safe distance.
Apologies should be concise, sincere and, for maximum clarity and points, delivered through a megaphone.
Rule Six: The winning team shall be the first team that wins.
The political and economic truth is that we can't just leave them alone. Like it or not, we need oil for a modern first world economy to function. Certainly more needs to be done to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, and not just for this reason, but even if the focus of US energy policy were to dramatically change right this very moment, it would be twenty years before real differences would become apparent.
Besides, what makes you think they would ignore us? Islamic fundamentalists have been attacking American targets since the 80's, and all President Clinton's years of not responding seem to have made them even more bold.
I think that the answer more likely lies in helping fund education in the more secular Islamic countries, such as Dubai, Bahrain, and perhaps Jordan. In Iran or Saudi Arabia, you probably wouldn't get too far. Think about it, though. Regardless of whether or not you try to ouch the benefits of Western civilization in your lesson plan, you could try to convince people that it is in their best interests in the modern world to be educated. Furthermore, it is in their best interests to be technologically savvy, which leads to the introduction of the scientific method and critical thinking/ reasoning skills. Fundamentalism and logical thought cannot coexist,and over time the poor Muslims would start to look at their increasingly wealthy and educated neighbors and hopefully think about their own futures.
Before anyone likens this idea to that proposed by the White House (which, by the way, I really wish had worked), there is one key difference. The Bush approach relies on the ability of the average Iraqi citizen to reason about the benefits of one way of life versus the other based on a very modern, pragmatic and secular way of looking at the world. This is asking a fundamentalist worldview to completely give up everything they believe in. About as likely as Southern Baptists pledging to become Zoroastrians to gain access to AIDS and cancer vaccines.
The idea with an incremental education approach is to avoid preaching a culture, but instead to allow them to reach their own conclusions with an inevitably Muslim character, but moderated by Westen-seeming thought processes to the point that they could be dealt with as reasonable people. After all, the Turks have been on our side for years.
Nick