Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Hasdrubal: Put more simply, science explains how, not why.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Freejack [/i]
[B]Second, there can be a distinct difference between truth and fact: Say a sculptor created a statue depicting Lincoln cutting the chains of a slave. The representation can be taken as truth, as it was Lincoln's leadership that allowed the slave to be freed, but it is not fact. (thanks to my mother, who's an ordained minister, for the second point)[/B][/QUOTE]
That's pretty much what I was trying to say. :) Even if the Bible is the exact Word of God, perhaps God gave an allegory rather than factual account so that those who were writing it down could understand it?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JackN [/i]
[B]I'm more interested in "Fire and Brimstone"...
:p [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm sure those sulphur balls can be explained away as well. :D
There have been volcanic eruptions all over the world throughout history. Depending on the violence of an eruption, the ejected mass can travel very long distances. I saw a documentary a couple days ago that talked about finding traces of asteroids that hit the earth on the surface of the moon. The impact was so violent that earth matter was ejected into space. There is so much debris in space that those sulfur balls could come from an external source. Who knows?
There are plenty of examples that prove or disprove the writings of the bible.
Genetically speaking we would all be inbreds if we all came from Adam and Eve. If we followed the logic of Noah's arc, so would all be the animals around us (discounting the ones that we breed for ourselves). According to the bible life only exists for a few thousand years, the natural history record shows otherwise.
I've stopped believing in fairy tales, but that doesn't mean I have a picture of Isaac Newton hanging over my bed. :D
In the end it's a personal decision of what you believe or not and everyone should have the freedom to do so. It's just sad that some use those beliefs as an excuse to kill other people. Respect is a two-way street, some do sometimes forget that.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Stingray [/i]
[B]Genetically speaking we would all be inbreds if we all came from Adam and Eve. If we followed the logic of Noah's arc, so would all be the animals around us (discounting the ones that we breed for ourselves).[/B][/QUOTE]
Genetically speaking, the human race is pretty inbred. That's theorised to be why we're so sickly. There is consierably less genetic diversity in humans than in most other species.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Biggles [/i]
[B]Genetically speaking, the human race is pretty inbred. That's theorised to be why we're so sickly. There is consierably less genetic diversity in humans than in most other species. [/B][/QUOTE]
You mean why we don't all walk around with different foreheads like in Star Trek? :D
As far as I remember from another documentary (yeah, there's sometimes something worth watching on TV), the last ice age did kill off a large part of our gene pool which would explain the lack of variety. Well, if we don't kill each other, nature does the rest. ;)
Random ChaosActually Carefully-selected Order in disguise
Ok, that's it.
Everyone go find a monkey. Undo the hazardous inbreeding!
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Biggles [/i]
[B]Genetically speaking, the human race is pretty inbred. That's theorised to be why we're so sickly. There is consierably less genetic diversity in humans than in most other species. [/B][/QUOTE]
I believe that is because homo sapiens came from an extremely small population relative to the other hominds that lived at that time, which was the [insert period that I can't remember here].
I've heard it was the effects of the last super volcano eruption, reguardless whether the population started out small or was reduced to small, the human geene pool is very small. Last I read the bottleneck was about 1000 members.
I am more inclined to go with disaster theory. The human body is surprisingly effective at storing fat, much more than most primates. Obviously that is a trait that would greatly increase survival in hard times. Also we humans have a palate for fat and salty foods.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Stingray [/i]
[B]I'm sure those sulphur balls can be explained away as well. :D
...
There are plenty of examples that prove or disprove the writings of the bible.[/B][/QUOTE]
Well I wasn't concerned with using it for proof or disproof really. I'm fully aware of the origins of these unique geological formations. It is obviously volcanic in nature. :)
My point was more about having a better understanding about what the term Brimstone is defined as. It's use in the history books as well as it's interpretation in the bible texts has always been genericly meaning Sulfur. These specific formations of sulfur are unique (so far) in the world to the Dead Sea area, and I was quite interested to see the specific correlation to one of the plagues of egypt (Burning Hail)...
;)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Stingray [/i][B]
Genetically speaking we would all be inbreds if we all came from Adam and Eve. If we followed the logic of Noah's arc, so would all be the animals around us (discounting the ones that we breed for ourselves).[/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, this is the genetic bottleneck that has been included in several shows concerning the previous Ice Age, Mt. Tambora, Toba, and possibly even minor asteroid impact, etc.
Certainly, something (or several things in chain reaction) stressed the environment and affected our collective survival.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Stingray [/i][B]According to the bible life only exists for a few thousand years, the natural history record shows otherwise.[/B][/QUOTE]
Why is it that it always has to be All or Nothing? :) Radical Fundamentalists always get the coveage I guess...
I see hypocracy everywhere I go, California has its own specific flavor of it, out here in TN I see the grass root fundamentalist just as hypocritcal in other ways. Churches out here are just as much Social establishments and forms of control and domination by the few.
These things are not what the Bible preaches or that Jesus said. He was fighting the same establishment in his own time...
Anyway...
The first place I look for error is in the interpretation of both scripture as well as science.
I subscribe to an interpretation of the Bible that does not call for the history of the world as 6 thousand years or even 12 thousand. Rather it is a specific book about a specific period of time dealing with a specific issue between man and his creator. Yes, it contains history, but it's purpose is not for history.
The paraphrased creation story in Genesis covers Billions and Millions of years, and really accurately tracks the history of the universe, our solar system, and the development of life on Earth in a simple way for simpler minds. Those 6 days of creation even cover long periods of time... but... that is just a prelude to the salvation story for the rest of the book.
Therefor I have room for both Evolution as well as Intelligent design, because in my mind they go hand in hand.
Some scientist will tell you that somewhere along the recent timeline, that "man" came up from the norm of of the animal world rather abruptly and mysteriously.
Some people might take this to be that the majority of the Earth has been left to go it's way, and then Aliens came down and modified a species to become more than they would have been by intervention.
Others would say that God formed Adam from the dust of the Earth, etc etc etc...
Maybe they are the same thing?
??? Who knows? Maybe someday we will know for sure...
I often get accused of living a Dichotomy of understanding, but I think I have an open mind to both sides, because I choose to try and look at things from the perspective of higher dimensions where shortcuts are possible, and things we can't explain are possible, and I believe that there is an entity that is there already and can exist both in our limited world as well as out of it.
I see science (as said before) aswering how (as much as is possible by observation in our limited point of view), and faith (of all kinds) answering why using communication with an entity (or entities) that exist beyond our limited point of view.
When you try and look at the universe beyond 4 dimensions it becomes clear where we really stand...
You can interpret it as Ominous and live in fear and ultimately die expecting to no longer exists, or you can belive in the possibility that others have made it, are trying to assist us in getting there, and live in hope of the continuation of your existance.
Personally, I have to feel that there is a purpose to everything in life even if I can't comprehend it or see how it could be allowed to happen.
My life observations tell me that there are way too many coincidences... and I choose to believe that there is manipulation going on behind the scenes...
I'm 100% with Jack on this one. Something or someone is there not telling us what to do or think but trying to guide us. I've been battling with what these doctors call mental illness for sometime and no matter what medication im on Im still the same crazy guy. I've had dreams in which a voice has warned me. (at least it sounded like an old man but stern) I jumped on the train and didn't pay for a ticket lied and said my name was Jarod. Just before I woke up the next morning I heard the voice say "And Jarod". I don't know what kind of warning it mean't but it was just after a few nights before when I heard "If a 25 year old cannot decide the difference between what is right and what is wrong...". I don't know what this could mean for my future but I hope and pray that it shall not pass or if it does I will hear the other dream I had "Sean Canavan your free to go".
This is also the first year I've heard voices outside my head in real time. One time after being released from the hospital and feeling totally drained from Lithium. I heard a voice totally outside my head say RUN! I slept instead. another time in the hospital in London I heard a voice (sounded like a black guy that I don't know) say Don't ask him. I was in the middle of asking my czech friend's father was in WWII. (this is the same character I imagined as the mule years before)
I think god is trying to push me in a direction....Probably to get off my ass and doing something about it. I am a bit introverted and these things do not scare me what does scare me is other people more than anything. I'm very afraid of fucking up or pissing people off. But I do know its neccesary. To make this less personal though god has done some weird shit in his time. I think Sheridan said it best "god never made it easy for anyone." Something good always comes out of something bad.
I can't explain things that happened to me scientifically and like Jack says there are to many coincidences. If you could live the last year of my life then I think you'd understand.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JackN [/i]
[B]My life observations tell me that there are way too many coincidences... and I choose to believe that there is manipulation going on behind the scenes...[/B][/QUOTE]
You mean the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonecutters]Stonecutters[/url]?
Im kinda on JackNs side, mainly because the more we learn about biology, geology, astronomy and physics, the more we learn that the conditions necessary for the existance of life and especialy for its evolution to higher forms are kinda precarious.
So either somebodys messing with the system, or the modern skeptical view for the values of the different variables is true, and value N for number of civilizations out there for us to talk to is <1.
So either somebodys playing god (and thus there might be more species out there, or not) , or were probably the only sentient species in this galaxy cause the odds are just that damn low.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Biggles [/i]
[B]You mean the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonecutters]Stonecutters[/url]? [/B][/QUOTE]
heh heh heh...
Doh!
In all seriousness...
I do believe we are not alone. How we define the nature of these others is based upon our point of view in our meager vantage point, as well as the possibility of there being multiple groups of these entities with different agendas of there own.
I do subscribe to the notion that all life has been around for a long long time, and that in (Earth times) recent history someone or something has intervened and made a change, something similar to A.C. Clark's 2001 intro. Maybe a little more physical alteration than what was portayed there...
At various points along the way since then, he/she/they jump in and tweek things for better or for worse, depending on whether it is a pro or con entity to our existence.
As time goes on, I find more and more for the idea that we are aliens on this rock just as much as any outside entity would be when visiting.
There it is in a nutshell. :)
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Star Ocean: Till the End of Time, while not really trying to be deep and philosophical, actually presented an amusing similar idea: Spoiler: Our whole universe (with its perfect physical constants, etc) is an uber MMORPG created for entertainment purposes.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Stingray [/i]
[B]If you look quickly enough you might catch a glimpse of that bright green gem over your head when the Great Maker picks you to do his bidding. :D [/B][/QUOTE]
Comments
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Freejack [/i]
[B]Second, there can be a distinct difference between truth and fact: Say a sculptor created a statue depicting Lincoln cutting the chains of a slave. The representation can be taken as truth, as it was Lincoln's leadership that allowed the slave to be freed, but it is not fact. (thanks to my mother, who's an ordained minister, for the second point)[/B][/QUOTE]
That's pretty much what I was trying to say. :) Even if the Bible is the exact Word of God, perhaps God gave an allegory rather than factual account so that those who were writing it down could understand it?
:p
[B]I'm more interested in "Fire and Brimstone"...
:p [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm sure those sulphur balls can be explained away as well. :D
There have been volcanic eruptions all over the world throughout history. Depending on the violence of an eruption, the ejected mass can travel very long distances. I saw a documentary a couple days ago that talked about finding traces of asteroids that hit the earth on the surface of the moon. The impact was so violent that earth matter was ejected into space. There is so much debris in space that those sulfur balls could come from an external source. Who knows?
There are plenty of examples that prove or disprove the writings of the bible.
Genetically speaking we would all be inbreds if we all came from Adam and Eve. If we followed the logic of Noah's arc, so would all be the animals around us (discounting the ones that we breed for ourselves). According to the bible life only exists for a few thousand years, the natural history record shows otherwise.
I've stopped believing in fairy tales, but that doesn't mean I have a picture of Isaac Newton hanging over my bed. :D
In the end it's a personal decision of what you believe or not and everyone should have the freedom to do so. It's just sad that some use those beliefs as an excuse to kill other people. Respect is a two-way street, some do sometimes forget that.
[B]Genetically speaking we would all be inbreds if we all came from Adam and Eve. If we followed the logic of Noah's arc, so would all be the animals around us (discounting the ones that we breed for ourselves).[/B][/QUOTE]
Genetically speaking, the human race is pretty inbred. That's theorised to be why we're so sickly. There is consierably less genetic diversity in humans than in most other species.
[B]Genetically speaking, the human race is pretty inbred. That's theorised to be why we're so sickly. There is consierably less genetic diversity in humans than in most other species. [/B][/QUOTE]
You mean why we don't all walk around with different foreheads like in Star Trek? :D
As far as I remember from another documentary (yeah, there's sometimes something worth watching on TV), the last ice age did kill off a large part of our gene pool which would explain the lack of variety. Well, if we don't kill each other, nature does the rest. ;)
Everyone go find a monkey. Undo the hazardous inbreeding!
:p
[B]Genetically speaking, the human race is pretty inbred. That's theorised to be why we're so sickly. There is consierably less genetic diversity in humans than in most other species. [/B][/QUOTE]
I believe that is because homo sapiens came from an extremely small population relative to the other hominds that lived at that time, which was the [insert period that I can't remember here].
Jake
I am more inclined to go with disaster theory. The human body is surprisingly effective at storing fat, much more than most primates. Obviously that is a trait that would greatly increase survival in hard times. Also we humans have a palate for fat and salty foods.
[B]I'm sure those sulphur balls can be explained away as well. :D
...
There are plenty of examples that prove or disprove the writings of the bible.[/B][/QUOTE]
Well I wasn't concerned with using it for proof or disproof really. I'm fully aware of the origins of these unique geological formations. It is obviously volcanic in nature. :)
My point was more about having a better understanding about what the term Brimstone is defined as. It's use in the history books as well as it's interpretation in the bible texts has always been genericly meaning Sulfur. These specific formations of sulfur are unique (so far) in the world to the Dead Sea area, and I was quite interested to see the specific correlation to one of the plagues of egypt (Burning Hail)...
;)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Stingray [/i][B]
Genetically speaking we would all be inbreds if we all came from Adam and Eve. If we followed the logic of Noah's arc, so would all be the animals around us (discounting the ones that we breed for ourselves).[/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, this is the genetic bottleneck that has been included in several shows concerning the previous Ice Age, Mt. Tambora, Toba, and possibly even minor asteroid impact, etc.
Certainly, something (or several things in chain reaction) stressed the environment and affected our collective survival.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Stingray [/i][B]According to the bible life only exists for a few thousand years, the natural history record shows otherwise.[/B][/QUOTE]
Why is it that it always has to be All or Nothing? :) Radical Fundamentalists always get the coveage I guess...
I see hypocracy everywhere I go, California has its own specific flavor of it, out here in TN I see the grass root fundamentalist just as hypocritcal in other ways. Churches out here are just as much Social establishments and forms of control and domination by the few.
These things are not what the Bible preaches or that Jesus said. He was fighting the same establishment in his own time...
Anyway...
The first place I look for error is in the interpretation of both scripture as well as science.
I subscribe to an interpretation of the Bible that does not call for the history of the world as 6 thousand years or even 12 thousand. Rather it is a specific book about a specific period of time dealing with a specific issue between man and his creator. Yes, it contains history, but it's purpose is not for history.
The paraphrased creation story in Genesis covers Billions and Millions of years, and really accurately tracks the history of the universe, our solar system, and the development of life on Earth in a simple way for simpler minds. Those 6 days of creation even cover long periods of time... but... that is just a prelude to the salvation story for the rest of the book.
Therefor I have room for both Evolution as well as Intelligent design, because in my mind they go hand in hand.
Some scientist will tell you that somewhere along the recent timeline, that "man" came up from the norm of of the animal world rather abruptly and mysteriously.
Some people might take this to be that the majority of the Earth has been left to go it's way, and then Aliens came down and modified a species to become more than they would have been by intervention.
Others would say that God formed Adam from the dust of the Earth, etc etc etc...
Maybe they are the same thing?
??? Who knows? Maybe someday we will know for sure...
I often get accused of living a Dichotomy of understanding, but I think I have an open mind to both sides, because I choose to try and look at things from the perspective of higher dimensions where shortcuts are possible, and things we can't explain are possible, and I believe that there is an entity that is there already and can exist both in our limited world as well as out of it.
I see science (as said before) aswering how (as much as is possible by observation in our limited point of view), and faith (of all kinds) answering why using communication with an entity (or entities) that exist beyond our limited point of view.
When you try and look at the universe beyond 4 dimensions it becomes clear where we really stand...
You can interpret it as Ominous and live in fear and ultimately die expecting to no longer exists, or you can belive in the possibility that others have made it, are trying to assist us in getting there, and live in hope of the continuation of your existance.
Personally, I have to feel that there is a purpose to everything in life even if I can't comprehend it or see how it could be allowed to happen.
My life observations tell me that there are way too many coincidences... and I choose to believe that there is manipulation going on behind the scenes...
;)
This is also the first year I've heard voices outside my head in real time. One time after being released from the hospital and feeling totally drained from Lithium. I heard a voice totally outside my head say RUN! I slept instead. another time in the hospital in London I heard a voice (sounded like a black guy that I don't know) say Don't ask him. I was in the middle of asking my czech friend's father was in WWII. (this is the same character I imagined as the mule years before)
I think god is trying to push me in a direction....Probably to get off my ass and doing something about it. I am a bit introverted and these things do not scare me what does scare me is other people more than anything. I'm very afraid of fucking up or pissing people off. But I do know its neccesary. To make this less personal though god has done some weird shit in his time. I think Sheridan said it best "god never made it easy for anyone." Something good always comes out of something bad.
I can't explain things that happened to me scientifically and like Jack says there are to many coincidences. If you could live the last year of my life then I think you'd understand.
[B]My life observations tell me that there are way too many coincidences... and I choose to believe that there is manipulation going on behind the scenes...[/B][/QUOTE]
You mean the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonecutters]Stonecutters[/url]?
So either somebodys messing with the system, or the modern skeptical view for the values of the different variables is true, and value N for number of civilizations out there for us to talk to is <1.
So either somebodys playing god (and thus there might be more species out there, or not) , or were probably the only sentient species in this galaxy cause the odds are just that damn low.
On a serious note, if the conditions wen't possible for higher life as-we-know-it, then we wouln't exactly be around to ask these kinds of questions.
The book COSM suggests another possability, that universes are created by accendent by others in other universes.
[B]You mean the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonecutters]Stonecutters[/url]? [/B][/QUOTE]
heh heh heh...
Doh!
In all seriousness...
I do believe we are not alone. How we define the nature of these others is based upon our point of view in our meager vantage point, as well as the possibility of there being multiple groups of these entities with different agendas of there own.
I do subscribe to the notion that all life has been around for a long long time, and that in (Earth times) recent history someone or something has intervened and made a change, something similar to A.C. Clark's 2001 intro. Maybe a little more physical alteration than what was portayed there...
At various points along the way since then, he/she/they jump in and tweek things for better or for worse, depending on whether it is a pro or con entity to our existence.
As time goes on, I find more and more for the idea that we are aliens on this rock just as much as any outside entity would be when visiting.
There it is in a nutshell. :)
[B]LOL, I must be an NPC then because my life sure does suck sometimes! [/B][/QUOTE]
If you look quickly enough you might catch a glimpse of that bright green gem over your head when the Great Maker picks you to do his bidding. :D
[B]If you look quickly enough you might catch a glimpse of that bright green gem over your head when the Great Maker picks you to do his bidding. :D [/B][/QUOTE]
Though usually, youre too drunk to notice.. ;)
And why I pee on the floor the other day!