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The Bible is Bullshit
Space Ghost
Elite Ranger
in Zocalo v2.0
[url]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9162292468797126455&q=Bullshit&pl=true[/url]
A nice complement to the gun control episode... considering the subject, this one had better generate at least twice as much debate. :)
A nice complement to the gun control episode... considering the subject, this one had better generate at least twice as much debate. :)
Comments
rotflmao! thats awesome!:D
But your left with one large problem.
Old testement, and New Testement.
Old testement fortold 333+ prophicies about Christ.
They all happened in the New Testement, and most can be verified through other sources.
Then your still left with Christ's ressurection. Historical figure, we know he existed. We know he was Scurged and Crucified. And buried. And then the body disapeared.
Hmm...odd isn't it? Roman soldiers standing gaurd at the tomb and yet it disapears? Where's the body eh?
And don't give me the "The Gaurds fell alseep and the Disciples took it!" story. Roman soldiers who fell asleep on gaurd were sentanced to death. They don't fall asleep. And then, to what end would hte disciples take the body? "YAY! Lets perpetrate a hoax that gets us all killed violent painfull tourcherous deaths!"
...right.
So, go ahead, argue semantics all you want. Call us fools for saying the Bible is truth. I'm still unimpressed by the show. I had to skim through it as I'm pressed for time, but will watch it in it's entirety later so if nessasary, I can create a proper rebuke to some of it's claims.
I got one thing for you that wasnt in the show. This is pretty much my argument AGAINST religion and the bible.
From around the time of 400 AD to about 1300 AD, a time we very appropriately now call the dark ages, literacy was not exactly what you might call wide spread. In fact, pretty much the only people capable of reading were the rediculously wealthy and members of the Church. The church had sole control over the bible and everything in it, this is why there are "holy texts" not even in the bible, they decided it need not be there.
When England was officially united under 1 crown around 1050 AD the church got their bully. The Catholic Church had the king of England placed firmly in their back pocket, and anything they wanted, they got. Hence the first major catholic holy war, the Crusades. Shortly after the failure of the crusades they turned their attention inward, and went after the Jews in the Inquisition.
For 900 years the Catholic Church ruled the world, official monks and priests being the only ones able to hand out the word of god, and you dont hink that just maybe they did a little editing of their own?? Especially with the way records were kept back then.
Most of the books of the bible were written well after the events took place anyways. It was written down as a the stories were told. You tell one person a story, that person tells another person a story, and so on, and so on. Remember this little game from school, by the time you have told the 6th person, the story isnt the same anymore. A tomb guarded by one or two followers becomes a tomb guarded by a Roman guard, becomes a tomb guarded by 50 Roman guards.
Religion cannot be gods device. The very idea of religion has sparked more wars than anything else in the history of the planet. Religion is a form of control, and it is a tool of man. Just like P&T said, read the damn bible, see what kind of rediculous things it says. Are we to take it all literally or just what we want out of it. The bible says its ok to stone a man to death for being gay, or sell my daughter into servitude, yes it also says though shalt not kill, and though shalt honor thy mother and father, but if the bible really is this great and holy document, do we take everthing for literal out of it, or just what we think is relavent?
Afterall, many practices of the Catholic church have ZERO precedence in the Bible, in fact, the Bible and sevral Catholic practices are indeed, contradicting. (Confession to a priest, when the Bible practices going directly to God. Praying to dead saints when the Bible is opposed to that, etc).
Not to mention, we still have some of the original texts written.
Now, yes, the Bible was basically assembled "By Commitee". I thought that was fairly well known. There was an issue of just anyone writing a chapter and calling it "God Inspired" Someone needed to figure out what was, and what was not.
Take the "new" Chapter of Judas. Now, barring the fact that it's dated to 300 years after Christ Death, and that Judas...well...hung himself. There is one key point that seperates it from the others. It's self serving. I think thats a big way to tell what are "real" chapters, and what are just mere peoples scribblings.
[B]Not to mention, we still have some of the original texts written.[/B][/QUOTE]
We do? That's news to me. All I've read has the oldest manuscripts being copies of copies of copies of...etc.
[QUOTE][B]Take the "new" Chapter of Judas. Now, barring the fact that it's dated to 300 years after Christ Death, and that Judas...well...hung himself. There is one key point that seperates it from the others. It's self serving. I think thats a big way to tell what are "real" chapters, and what are just mere peoples scribblings. [/B][/QUOTE]
What tells you that someone named Judas decided to hang himself - the Bible, the error-free historical book it is?
But A###
Cite.
now.
[B]We do? That's news to me. All I've read has the oldest manuscripts being copies of copies of copies of...etc.
What tells you that someone named Judas decided to hang himself - the Bible, the error-free historical book it is? [/B][/QUOTE]
Ever hear of the dead sea scrolls? :)
And yes. As stated, it CANNOT be the writings of Judas himself, as well...he'd be dead. and there are other people saying he hung himself.
Now, if he didn't hang himself, then those writing that he HAD hung himself, would have been in error, and their works forfit.
Why? Because the belivers at the time were under harsh persecution themselves, and frankly, we as a race have not changed since the dawn of time. We don't WANT to be killed. we don't WANT to die. For a person to go through that, they had to be CERTAIN they were right. If the teachings of the diciples were lies, and say, Judas was alive, someone would have said that and it would have put an end to the whole thing.
Same with Christ's Body. If it was around, someone would have presented it, and ended the whole of Christianity before it even began.
And "Why"..
what evactly are you wanting me to cite? The verses that say Judas Hung himself? Or the historical, documented proofs that the Bible was assembled by comittee?
Or the contradictions between some of Catholicisms practices and Biblical teachings?
Frankly, I didn't see the need to cite that info, as well...it's all readily available, and for the most part, I assumed, common knowledge.
As well, not only proof of Jesus' existence, but evidence of his ressurection that goes beyond heresay about an empty tomb.
[B]
Religion cannot be gods device. The very idea of religion has sparked more wars than anything else in the history of the planet. Religion is a form of control, and it is a tool of man. Just like P&T said, read the damn bible, see what kind of rediculous things it says. [/B][/QUOTE]
Sorry, had to kill this one argument...
I'd say that very few wars are spawned by Christain teachings. Actually, following those teachings, no wars were started. Yes, in the Old Testement there were wars led by God...but After Christ?
Lets see...
Crusades: Man
French Religious Wars: Man
Spanish Inquisition: Man
Lets compleatly ignore things like the Spanish American War, the World Wars, the cival wars, the territorial wars, etc. Frankly, religious disputes count for a small percentage of wars. And those are are spawned by religion, are generally MAN getting in the way of God's teaching, and trying to use an unwitting army to gain personal power.
Take for instance, the Crusades. Church used a largley illiterate following, promised them salvation by fighting (Totally against Biblical teachings I may add) and set them off.
Thats AGAINST the Religious teachings, yet the religion as a whole suffers for it.
The Christain religion has been used by man as a form of control, in an era when the followers were illiterate and being fed false information. Blame men for that, Not God.
And, as you will recall, men like Martin Luther brought about the Protestent Reformation. Men that actually read the Bible and followed it's, and God's teachings, were "preaching peace" as you could put it.
[quote]
Are we to take it all literally or just what we want out of it. The bible says its ok to stone a man to death for being gay, or sell my daughter into servitude, yes it also says though shalt not kill, and though shalt honor thy mother and father, but if the bible really is this great and holy document, do we take everthing for literal out of it, or just what we think is relavent? [/quote]
This comes into place when you understand God a little.
You see, God Is Merciful. He does'nt want to punish us. The Bible even says "God Is Love". (And for Why: 1 john: 4:8b)
But, God is also JUST. Therefor he must punish sin. "Yet the guilty shall not go unpunished" (Exodus 34:7b)
Not a contradiction. Your parents loved you, but they also had to punish you when you did something wrong.
That said, you cannot pick and choose, it's either all right, or all wrong. Myself, I fall into the catogory that it is all right. Shoot, I've had a running challenge here for what? 4 years? to show me just ONE honest to goodness contradiction in the Bible. I don't recall one ever being posted that wasn't insanely frivilous.
Now, forgive me for being dence, but where does it say to stone a man for being Gay, or sell your daughter into servitude?
[B]I'm talking, of course, about the "other sources" that back up Jesus' claim to divinity through these prophecies.
As well, not only proof of Jesus' existence, but evidence of his ressurection that goes beyond heresay about an empty tomb. [/B][/QUOTE]
OK, well, Isiah is a good place for Prophecies:
Isaiah 53:5 written: 712 B.C.)
Read Torah, Isaiah 53 3-6: "He is despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all." Written: 712 BC
and by Josephus:
Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, for he was a doer of wonders, He drew many after him When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day (Antiquities 18:63-64).
So, from that we know he was Called Jesus, and that he was Crucified. Backs up the Bible on that one point.
Stands to reason that the rest of the Biblical account of his death (The Scurging, etc) was also accurate.
And to me, the most compelling evidence, is in the fact that Christianity spread like Wildfire so soon after Jesus's ressurection. Which makes sence, as he was seen not only by the 12 diciples, but the two Mary's, and a crowd of what? 300 people at one time?
I'd say that if Jesus died and didn't come back, it never would have spread. Even an Empty tomb wouldn't have been enough for it to spread as it did. And to still be around today.
[B]
Now, forgive me for being dence, but where does it say to stone a man for being Gay, or sell your daughter into servitude? [/B][/QUOTE]
Exodus 21 has all kinds of rules for allowing slavery of many kinds...
verse 2: If thou buy a hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and on the seventh he shall go free out for nothing.
so its ok to own a hebrew slave as long as you let him go after the 7th year.
verse 7: And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservent, she shall not go out as the manservants do.
So not only can you sell your own dauther into servitude, but because she is a woman, she doesnt get to go free after the 7th year!!
Here is another good one:
Exodus 35 v2: six days shall work be done but on the 7th day therel shall be unto you a holy day, a sabbath of rest to the lord; whosever doith work therin shall be put to death.
Hey, I mowed my lawn today by the way...
Leviticus 20 v13:
If a man also lie with a man-kind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have commited an abommination; they shall surely be put to death, their blood shall be upon them.
So homosexuals shall be put to death.
did you even watch the penn and teller bit, they pointed this out??
Flame bait...
Cheers!
[B]Take for instance, the Crusades. Church used a largley illiterate following, promised them salvation by fighting (Totally against Biblical teachings I may add) and set them off.
Thats AGAINST the Religious teachings, yet the religion as a whole suffers for it. [/B][/QUOTE]
Depends if you follow the old testament, or new testament. They really are two different religions..
[B]Reading the title of this thread told me everything I needed to know...
Flame bait...
Cheers! [/B][/QUOTE]
Did you watch the video?
[B]Reading the title of this thread told me everything I needed to know...
Flame bait...
Cheers! [/B][/QUOTE]
Agreed. ;)
Old and New testements being two different religions?
Well, yes and no. Same God. Just before and after solution.
Remember how I said God was both Merciful AND just? That poses a bit of a problem. God solved that problem in the person of Jesus Christ.
Jesus was the Infinate God Man. Entirely God, yet Entirely Man. Subject to all our flaws and Sin, yet living a sinless life, and dieing for our sins to pay the penelty of our sin.
For instance, Say I'm sitting down some place, and above me is God. But, between me and God is a layer of sins I have commited, so when God looks down on me, all he can see is my sin.
Thats how it was in the Old Testement, and thus, it was delt with here on earth, and in death.
But then God sent Christ, and as is said in Isiah 53:6, We like sheep had gone astray, but God laid on HIM the eniquity of us all.
In short, that barrior of sin was removed and placed on Christ, so now when God looks at me, he sees me, not my sin.
That totally changed the way that things worked. Before Sin would have ment your death, and therefor laws were made to that end. But now, up until the time of death, we have the ability to accept christ.
Acts 3:16 states that Whoever belives in Christ (And his act of salvation) Shall surely have everlasting life.
So we now have that option, up until the end, and you can see why your quotes come solely from the old testement, before Christ.
Moreoever, I didn't hear any "flame bait" objections when it came to the "gun control is bullshit" thread.
But to begin with...
The dead sea scrolls are entirely Old Testament texts. There is, however, a fragment that a Jesuit Priest claimed to be from the book of Mark, I believe. But apparently said fragment is nearly unreadable. So take that as you will.
I appreciate the citation of Josephus, but the so-called Testimonium Flavianum, from which you posted, is considered somewhat suspect. For one thing, it was written several decades after Jesus' reported death, well after christianity began spreading into Greece. Another is that the section in question, at least according to many scholars in that area since the mid 1600's, consider it to be in a completely different style from the rest of his prose. Not to mention that there are later works, such as origin, which make frequent reference to Josephus' Antiquities, that completely fails to mention this section.
However, the same author does however cite Josephus' reference to Jesus' brother, and his works.
So basically, we know that 20+ years after the fact, well into the rise of christianity, that... [i]there were people who worshipped an awesome dude named Jesus[/i].
And from this you extrapolate that the account of his death was completely historically accurate.
And as for the heresay on the tomb and it's supposed effect on the spread of the religion. 1) that's still hearsay.
2) You do realize that Christians were very, [i]very[/i] heavy on the Proseltyzation. Which is the reason many governments did not particularly like them.
As for the Crusades, Deuteronomy 13. Homosexuality is in Leviticus. Which is old testament, admittedly. However the show makes a point of how people tend to pick and choose from the OT.
Next up. As for Isiah, I'm fairly sure that the countless others who claimed to be the Messiah also read it.
Now, to sleep, because I am tired.
[B]The Leviticus condemnation of homosexuality is generally not relied upon by churches in their doctrine. It is too weak, even for them, especially when Paul's condemnation of homosexuals in his letter to the Romans is just as harsh. [/B][/QUOTE] I always read that as more of a condemnation of Idolatry, in specific the rather sexual nature of many Greek cults at the time.
Paul was a complete douchebag regardless.
[B]Forgive me for saying so, but for someone who feels this topic is nothing more than "flame bait" you seem to have been caught firmly on the proverbial hook. ;)
Moreoever, I didn't hear any "flame bait" objections when it came to the "gun control is bullshit" thread. [/B][/QUOTE]
I figure you were refering to A2597 here, but to start a thread out (much less the video) as "The Bible is Bullshit" is about as much an inspiring lead to a decent discussion as "Darwin was an asshole".
Unlike A2597, I am not in need of converting you to my way of thinking, just as this whole excercise is intended to convert me and other of faith into yours.
:)
Yes I did watch enough of the video to see the same old cliche' supposed controversies etc...
This fish ain't taking the bait and so will live to see another day... Survival of the fittest right?
;)
[B]wow, all this time, I didnt see A#### as a bible thumper...
I got one thing for you that wasnt in the show. This is pretty much my argument AGAINST religion and the bible.
From around the time of 400 AD to about 1300 AD, a time we very appropriately now call the dark ages, literacy was not exactly what you might call wide spread. In fact, pretty much the only people capable of reading were the rediculously wealthy and members of the Church. The church had sole control over the bible and everything in it, this is why there are "holy texts" not even in the bible, they decided it need not be there.
When England was officially united under 1 crown around 1050 AD the church got their bully. The Catholic Church had the king of England placed firmly in their back pocket, and anything they wanted, they got. Hence the first major catholic holy war, the Crusades. Shortly after the failure of the crusades they turned their attention inward, and went after the Jews in the Inquisition.
For 900 years the Catholic Church ruled the world, official monks and priests being the only ones able to hand out the word of god, and you dont hink that just maybe they did a little editing of their own?? Especially with the way records were kept back then.
Most of the books of the bible were written well after the events took place anyways. It was written down as a the stories were told. You tell one person a story, that person tells another person a story, and so on, and so on. Remember this little game from school, by the time you have told the 6th person, the story isnt the same anymore. A tomb guarded by one or two followers becomes a tomb guarded by a Roman guard, becomes a tomb guarded by 50 Roman guards.
Religion cannot be gods device. The very idea of religion has sparked more wars than anything else in the history of the planet. Religion is a form of control, and it is a tool of man. Just like P&T said, read the damn bible, see what kind of rediculous things it says. Are we to take it all literally or just what we want out of it. The bible says its ok to stone a man to death for being gay, or sell my daughter into servitude, yes it also says though shalt not kill, and though shalt honor thy mother and father, but if the bible really is this great and holy document, do we take everthing for literal out of it, or just what we think is relavent? [/B][/QUOTE]
The Catholic church doesn't claim that the Bible is fact, either.
[B]I figure you were refering to A2597 here, but to start a thread out (much less the video) as "The Bible is Bullshit" is about as much an inspiring lead to a decent discussion as "Darwin was an asshole".[/B][/QUOTE]
Well, the show is called [b]Penn & Teller's: Bullshit![/b]
That's the way they start off every episode :p
[B]I figure you were refering to A2597 here[/B][/QUOTE]
I was indeed.
Thank you, Sanfam.
[B]Well, the show is called [b]Penn & Teller's: Bullshit![/b]
That's the way they start off every episode :p [/B][/QUOTE]
I wonder if, one day, they'll find that an episode contained a massive, massive error, and they air the correction in an episode titled "'Bullshit' is bullshit."
You know, that wasn't nearly as witty as I thought it was going to be. Oh, well, easy come, easy go.
And that is not something I intend to do. Nor do I set out to convert you to my way of thinking. Though I have nothing wrong with laying out what I believe here for you to read. :)
(I firmly disagree with "forcing" someone to convert/listen/whatever...I believe that is just wasting time. I can't force you to, you have to be inquisitive, else it is kind of pointless. )
That said, I don't like it when people cheer a show that (Quite obviously) set out disprove the Bible, by making the one "doctor" look like an idiot by cutting him off mid sentance at times (So it seemed...) and saying things like "Who calls himself "Doctor" and the other by his name...we never heard him say it. They did. They never spoke to him, so they probably didn't call him "doctor" unless as a honorific, the same as they would have with the other...
They also had a knack for presenting the evidence that supported their claims, and ignoring evidence that was against their claims...soo...up to you if you wish to believe it.