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Another school shooting
croxis
I am the walrus
in Zocalo v2.0
From CNN
[quote]
Officials: Student kills 5 at school and grandparents
Shooter also believed dead at Minnesota high school
Monday, March 21, 2005 Posted: 7:56 PM EST (0056 GMT)
(CNN) -- A student on Monday killed two of his grandparents, then went on a shooting rampage at his Minnesota high school, killing five people and wounding as many as 15 others before killing himself, officials said.
FBI Special Agent Paul McCabe told reporters the dead include a female teacher, a male security officer and four Red Lake High School students.
"We believe that one of those students is the shooter," McCabe said.
The school was evacuated and locked down, he said.
"At this time, we believe he was acting alone," McCabe said. He would not comment on a possible motive, saying, "It's far too early in the investigation."
The slain students were shot in one room, he said, adding that 14 to 15 other students were wounded.
"Apparently, he walked down the hallway shooting and then he entered a classroom, he shot several students and a teacher, then himself," said Roman Stately, with the Red Lake Fire Department, who arrived at the high school moments after the shootings.
Authorities discovered about an hour later that the boy had shot and killed his grandmother and grandfather, a veteran of the police force, Stately told KARE-TV.
Stately said the boy used his grandfather's police-issued weapon in the school rampage.
The shootings occurred about 3 p.m. (4 p.m. ET), in Red Lake High School, a school of 300 student that is on a sovereign Indian reservation within Beltrami County, about 25 miles north of Bemidji, a town of about 25,000 residents, many of them Ojibway Indians, he said.
The school is about 240 miles north of the Twin Cities, near the Canadian border. [/quote]
:( :o :mad: :eek: :angryv:
[quote]
Officials: Student kills 5 at school and grandparents
Shooter also believed dead at Minnesota high school
Monday, March 21, 2005 Posted: 7:56 PM EST (0056 GMT)
(CNN) -- A student on Monday killed two of his grandparents, then went on a shooting rampage at his Minnesota high school, killing five people and wounding as many as 15 others before killing himself, officials said.
FBI Special Agent Paul McCabe told reporters the dead include a female teacher, a male security officer and four Red Lake High School students.
"We believe that one of those students is the shooter," McCabe said.
The school was evacuated and locked down, he said.
"At this time, we believe he was acting alone," McCabe said. He would not comment on a possible motive, saying, "It's far too early in the investigation."
The slain students were shot in one room, he said, adding that 14 to 15 other students were wounded.
"Apparently, he walked down the hallway shooting and then he entered a classroom, he shot several students and a teacher, then himself," said Roman Stately, with the Red Lake Fire Department, who arrived at the high school moments after the shootings.
Authorities discovered about an hour later that the boy had shot and killed his grandmother and grandfather, a veteran of the police force, Stately told KARE-TV.
Stately said the boy used his grandfather's police-issued weapon in the school rampage.
The shootings occurred about 3 p.m. (4 p.m. ET), in Red Lake High School, a school of 300 student that is on a sovereign Indian reservation within Beltrami County, about 25 miles north of Bemidji, a town of about 25,000 residents, many of them Ojibway Indians, he said.
The school is about 240 miles north of the Twin Cities, near the Canadian border. [/quote]
:( :o :mad: :eek: :angryv:
Comments
[B]I wonder what game is going to get blamed for this. [/B][/QUOTE]
Actually... I was wondering if you were going to show up here after this...
:p
;)
j/k
[B]Actually... I was wondering if you were going to show up here after this...
:p
;)
j/k [/B][/QUOTE]
OH OH LAWL :D
Yeah San Andreas probably? Maybe the Halo?
[B]or maybe the kid was just fucking nuts to begin with:( [/B][/QUOTE]
Nope... ITS THE VIDEO GAMES..... ITS ALWAYS THE VIDEO GAMES OR MUSIC OR TV!!!!
Look at Japan for example...
Sad event in any case...:(
Weapons With Owner Loyalty
People are errant. Even the most attentive person could be surprised by a criminal. In such circumstances, a weapon... taken by a criminal from its owner... should wait for the criminal to try shooting... and self-destruct with sufficient force to incapacitate a human.
This lunatic... he should have never been able to access so multiple functional, unlocked weapons.
[B]Weapons With Owner Loyalty
[/B][/QUOTE]
I like it. It works on the same principle as another favorite "There oughta be a" law, Ray Magliozzi's, "Your Dog is Your Agent" idea. As in, you can own your pit bull, your rottweiler, but if your monster killer dog goes and swallows a neighborhood five-year old whole, the law looks at you in much the same way as if you ordered a contract killing: you didn't pull the trigger, but you're sure as hell responsible.
Not to mention that the Japanese have their own fair share of school violence. A few weeks ago some teenage loon wandered into an elementary school and stabbed a couple of people to death.
Personally, I don't think violence in games contributes to violence in society any more than violence in, say, movies. But Japan is not the best country to use as a comparison for the US.
[B]I hereby repeat the description of one... of my many pet projects:
Weapons With Owner Loyalty
People are errant. Even the most attentive person could be surprised by a criminal. In such circumstances, a weapon... taken by a criminal from its owner... should wait for the criminal to try shooting... and self-destruct with sufficient force to incapacitate a human.
This lunatic... he should have never been able to access so multiple functional, unlocked weapons. [/B][/QUOTE]
Its unknown if the weapons were usecured, frankly even if they were with enough time the security measures could be broken, His grandparents were the initial victoms. Its theorticly possible to kill the grandparents friday evening then spend the rest of the weekend cracking the gunsafe with the power tools in the garage then move onto killing people monday.
Secondly given the nature of firearms any attempt to make them non functional can also be easily circomvented, and self destruction is a risky buisness because it could put others near the weapon in danger also.
Firearms even modern military weapons are in their heart fairly simple mechanical devices.
Currently firearms have anywhere from 4 grains of smokeless gunpowder for small pistols to a 100 grains of smokeless powder in heavy cartiges chambered for big game. thats .06 grams to 6 grams of smokeless powder along with a primer containg minute amounts of shock senstive explosives such as potassium perchlorate.
The proplem with any unusual detonation of the round is that you create very high pressures that can not be relieved except by structural failure of the weapon. which generates shrapnel that could go flying god knows where.
If you choose not to utilize the primer and proplent to disable the unauthorized user you run into another problem in that other then those substancesis absolutly nothing dangerous in firearms or ammunition, other then maybe upon disasembly taking a spring in the eye, that you wouldnt find on a brick.
a firearm, from the Sig P239 thats currently on my hip, to the M14 in the closet, to the M2HB in the commanders position of the M1 series tanks is nothing more then a collection of springs and levers, housed in a metal box with a metal tube sticking out one end.
And that brings up the problem of disabling the weapon.
When you chamber a round in a firearm you end up compressing a spring which ends up actuating the hammer on those weapons with hammers, weapons with internal strikers are slightly different you actually compress the spring on the firing pin. when you pull the trigger you engage a lever which forces out the catch on the spring on the hammer or firing pin, and the hammer travels forward hitting the firing pin, or the spring uncompresses pushing the pin forward, striking the primer and creating ignition.
Its all fairly straight forward, intrupting this process with another device is possible, but due to the stright forward nature of firearms, would also be fairly easy to circomvent.
Trying to find some way to economically retrofit controls to existing guns ?
wont happen, not never.
If anything, the US Govt should bite the bullet and offer to buy, at a prescribed and equitable price, any gun offered up and destroy it, totally recycle it. Billions of dollars, but it may indeed reduce the incredible saturation of firearms you find in the USA.
Unless you switched entirely over to electricly fired weapons and propellents, which has its own problems.
And lastly even if you remove firearms from the equation it wont drasticly reduce the homicide rate in the US. The US has had a higher homicide rate then most european nations for like the past 100 years, and at one point knives were the most common murder weapon.
Its a cultural thing.
-- Force the casing to explosively disintegrate, causing components to fly apart (so that using the weapon would require collecting and reassmbling them) in such fashion that a shot cannot follow.
-- Design the disintegration charge in such fashion that it causes structural failure or deformation beyond repair... in one or multiple components critical to the firing mechanism (so that using the weapon would require replacing them).
-- Choose a charge of carefully optimized size: capable of breaking bones in an average person's hand, yet not capable of blowing off the hand.
-- Should a criminal attempt to fire such a weapon, he/she will not be using that hand to hold another weapon anytime soon.
-- Should kids attempt to fire such a weapon, surely having minor surgery and wearing a cast for some months... is much better than having the weapon fired at someone. Foremost of all, kids should be educated and *not* go poking firearms on their own.
-----------
I think the problem of *limiting* (not preventing) such crimes... really is technical... namely that our weapons are too dumb, and will serve anyone who gets them.
A society where weapons can defend their own intergrity... can be predicted to be more resilient to attack.
[B]Weapons With Owner Loyalty
[/B][/QUOTE]
Or a restriction on weapons. Like no civilians at all?
given that everything these days in manufactured under the protection of massive liability insurance policies, deliberately and will fully installing components which are deliberately designed to harm/incapaciate the user would be fiscal and economic suicide for the maker.
the only soloution that I can see thats even slightly possible is a sealed firing pin unit, manufactured en masse and supplied to all regsitered firearms manufacturers. The firing pin unit is effectively just a little smart box with a pin poking out of one end. It would have a one time regstration and 'activation' code where a biometric or electronic signature of the regsitered user would be mated to that firing unit in that gun. from that day foward that firearm responds only to that user. The firing pin unit communciates with the user via a wireless link, proably through the palm of the hand into the butt of the weapon. Super close proximity between the ID chip in/on the user and the firearm should ensure a good confirmable signal.
removal of the firing pin unit from the firearm results in the unit being rendered inoperable.
anyone using the firearm who does not have the appropriate chip embedded in thier hand, or perhaps in a ring cannot fire the weapon, only cycle the action to clear the chamber/eject the clip.
This is course doesnt stop backyarders and blackmarket choppers finding a way around it. In fact I can immediately think of a chop to this sort of system that would render it useless for a resourceful gunsmith... all the above would do would be to limit the use of 'in a hurry' scenarios, crimes of passion perhaps for 'un-linked' users.
as Tyvar says in other words...
Guns dont kill people, Americans with guns kill people.
Sadly... I dont say that with a speck of malice or disrespect to the American people... its just a sad, sad fact.
Martin Bryant holds the "Mass Execution with a gun" record...
35 people
He's Tasmanian.
An Australian...
...nobody is without sin.
Why not? If guns occasionally self-destruct, they could manufacture more guns. They might actually... come to like the idea.
[quote]given that everything these days in manufactured under the protection of massive liability insurance policies,[/quote]
Simple. Have the user accept an agreement, officially informing them:
[i]"If you press the trigger before the indicator informs that the weapon has recognized you, this weapon will self-destruct, and most likely harm you.
This weapon contains heavy redundancy. Provided you permit it to refresh your profile once in five years, it will always successfully recognize you -- unless you manage to change species.
For our free warranty and insurance to cover you, we must require that you permit the weapon to be examined by service technicians once in every 10 years."[/i]
[quote] deliberately and will fully installing components which are deliberately designed to harm/incapaciate the user would be fiscal and economic suicide for the maker.[/quote]
I doubt. Should I *ever* require a firearm, I would actually *prefer* a version capable of stopping a person attempting to misuse it.
But ultimately, if the majority of people needing means of defense would think differently... perhaps this approach would never become widespread.
Perhaps it would suffice if the weapon doesn't damage the user, but a tiny charge embedded inside it *does* break its mechanics.
k..
[B]Why not? If guns occasionally self-destruct, they could manufacture more guns. They might actually... come to like the idea.
Simple. Have the user accept an agreement, officially informing them:
[i]"If you press the trigger before the indicator informs that the weapon has recognized you, this weapon will self-destruct, and most likely harm you.
This weapon contains heavy redundancy. Provided you permit it to refresh your profile once in five years, it will always successfully recognize you -- unless you manage to change species.
For our free warranty and insurance to cover you, we must require that you permit the weapon to be examined by service technicians once in every 10 years."[/i]
I doubt. Should I *ever* require a firearm, I would actually *prefer* a version capable of stopping a person attempting to misuse it.
But ultimately, if the majority of people needing means of defense would think differently... perhaps this approach would never become widespread.
Perhaps it would suffice if the weapon doesn't damage the user, but a tiny charge embedded inside it *does* break its mechanics. [/B][/QUOTE]
Sleepy, have you had any actual substantial experience with explosive substances? doing what you suggst is a lot more difficult then you would think.
Any charge with enough force to shatter the steel casing of the slide will create shrapnal that will travel at at lethal velocity in directions you can not forcee.
If you have a charge detonate in the grip of the weapon to disable it, even of a weapon with a polymer frame you could encur a sympathetic explosion of the ammuniton again, causing unforceen consequences.
your best bet would be a small charge in the trigger area do disable it. however such a charge again could be easily circomvented after disasembly of the weapon. And if the charge is small enough to preclude generating damage which might produce lethal shrapnel, odds are that with sufficent extra parts you could easily repair the weapon, sans charge.
What your missing is that this kid had some premediation, this was not a split second decision. In fact in most crimes of this type premediation is involved.
The actual situations in which a armed individuals gun own gun is taken from them then is used against them in the moment is quite low.
Most homicides in the US feature a certain level of premedition meaning security functions will be circomvented or alternate means secured.
Not much. I have only built rockets.
I realize it *will* be difficult to find a spot... where a sufficiently small charge will damage a sufficiently essential part. But it *could* be made easier by *designing* that component weaker.
[QUOTE]Any charge with enough force to shatter the steel casing of the slide will create shrapnal that will travel at at lethal velocity in directions you can not forcee.[/QUOTE]
Thanks! You just gave me an excellent idea! Good ideas for my pet wishes are always welcome.
The components to be taken out by a self-destruct... should *not* be steel, but composite instead. Just a little directed heat (imagine a little rocket engine)... they they could be melted.
Yes... ammunition would have to be located sufficiently far. Easy in a revolver or big rifle... somewhat more complex in a pistol... but doable.
As for circumvention... naturally such a weapon should be constantly aware of its surroundings. Should someone attempt to open it without first providing a password... it would melt down, just like upon un-authorized use.
You still can't escape the facts that:
People kill people (Guns, Knives, poison, etc)
and...
Gun control only controls those who legally have permit to own and use. (having a government that has control of all weapons is a very scary thought in my opinion from a civilian point of view).
The answer really is the source then. Weapons manufacturers should be controlled. Types of weapons banned completely.
Of course you have the problem of that if this were to actually happen in the USA, CHina and half a dozen other countries would still make their versions...
so... where do we go from here?
[B]Not much. I have only built rockets.
I realize it *will* be difficult to find a spot... where a sufficiently small charge will damage a sufficiently essential part. But it *could* be made easier by *designing* that component weaker.
Thanks! You just gave me an excellent idea! Good ideas for my pet wishes are always welcome.
The components to be taken out by a self-destruct... should *not* be steel, but composite instead. Just a little directed heat (imagine a little rocket engine)... they they could be melted.
Yes... ammunition would have to be located sufficiently far. Easy in a revolver or big rifle... somewhat more complex in a pistol... but doable.
As for circumvention... naturally such a weapon should be constantly aware of its surroundings. Should someone attempt to open it without first providing a password... it would melt down, just like upon un-authorized use. [/B][/QUOTE]
The problem is a by designing those parts to be weaker, they would be more likely to fail during use, secondly whats to prevent their replacement by other components? all pieces of a firearm save the frame are designed to be replaced in the event of a failure.
As for JackN's issue of controlling the source, good luck, anybody with a moderatly decent CNC machine shop can crank out guns if they want. Already here in the US were battling smuggled in guns.
The truth of the matter is everybody complains about how we cant stop drug smuggling, and should give up, what makes people think we could stop gun smuggling?
[B]
The truth of the matter is everybody complains about how we cant stop drug smuggling, and should give up, what makes people think we could stop gun smuggling? [/B][/QUOTE]
Not even you could get an SKS into a condom and up your arse to get it in through customs...:D