[quote]Originally posted by Vertigo1:
[b]powerful battery to run this sucker, and thats going to weigh a ton by comparison!
You're also going to need a way to remove it and/or recharge it on the go.
[/b][/quote]
1: The ballast tanks described before come unter the heading of 'control'. For fundamental bouyancy to counter the weight, any part of the craft that isnt a 'system' can be replaced with a hollow, air filled section.
2: A Crane. - no not the bird, the big metal things. Because thats how big this think is going to end up unless you get some extremely fine, precision engineering of all the components done.
Besides, Big = stable.
Why not use the hydrogen in the water for fuel? That way you don't have to carry fuel, just the plant to pull the hydrogen from the water, which fuels a turbine, which turns a generator to create the electricity you need to run the impellers and operational systems.
Here are the plans:
[url="http://www.hasslberger.com/tecno/hydrogen.html"]http://www.hasslberger.com/tecno/hydrogen.html[/url]
[url="http://www.hasslberger.com/img/plan1.gif"]http://www.hasslberger.com/img/plan1.gif[/url]
[url="http://www.hasslberger.com/img/plan2.gif"]http://www.hasslberger.com/img/plan2.gif[/url]
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 04-13-2002).]
You're going to keep bouncing these ideas off yourselves until you get the basics sorted - if you're building this, how big are you aiming to build it?
Once you know the size, you know what you can fit, and where - once you have the basics then you can afford to consider taking things further [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
I would think something like 18'X6' if it's RC non-manned. That should fit most of the components.
Another alternative is to hook it up to surface cables. You can have power, control (I'd look at fiberoptics; flexible and light weight) and an air supply (for ballast) running to the submersible.
[quote]Originally posted by Randy:
[b]Why not use the hydrogen in the water for fuel? That way you don't have to carry fuel, just the plant to pull the hydrogen from the water, which fuels a turbine, which turns a generator to create the electricity you need to run the impellers and operational systems.
Here are the plans:
[url="http://www.hasslberger.com/tecno/hydrogen.html"]http://www.hasslberger.com/tecno/hydrogen.html[/url]
[url="http://www.hasslberger.com/img/plan1.gif"]http://www.hasslberger.com/img/plan1.gif[/url]
[url="http://www.hasslberger.com/img/plan2.gif"]http://www.hasslberger.com/img/plan2.gif[/url]
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 04-13-2002).][/b][/quote]
How heavy are the fuel cells, or catalyst cells?
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Fuel cells are pretty solid if you store the fuel in them and make them a self contained unit. The alternative is to just have the reaction part and take the fuel from elsewhere (ie the water).
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
Actually, RC works just fine underwater, up to a specific range. I've used many RC Subs, and they are just as fun to control as those surface-hopping boats and hovercraft. There's no discernable lag, and unless they go 80-something ft. deep, they won't die. Stronger transmitters yield longer ranges, too.
Is it just me, or is everyone here thinking *too* big?
1200 x 600 x 400 or thereabouts. Why that big ? Well it means there should be some space left by the time all crucial systems are on board. I'd like enough room for a camera if nothing else. My feeling is this craft is not one you could fly from 'third person' or externally, seeing through its 'cockpit' would make controlling it much more intuitive and as far as I'm aware thats the way most drones work.
I just wonder how long you can make a firewire cable... I could just whack my Sony Handycam in if I could get a cable long enough without signal loss... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
A hydrogen cell would be good but theres one problem, saline water will completely clag up the electrodes in a converter, so this would limit the "Seafuries" activity to fresh water, and quite clean water at that... every speck of crud that enters the system will coat and muck up the internals of the system. Having some sort of filter would perhaps help but thats more weight and more pump power and... you know the story. I think perhaps this is for a 'full scale' manned version where there is a bigger margin for equipment.
Yeah RC is limited is water, but my intention is to never be too far away from the critter in the first place. Secondly tethers are ok for most situation and offer more flexibility with payload once internal power sources are not required. In a full scale application I guess tethers would have to be employed, if only for safety and system integrity.
There is also nothing wrong with thinking big, its better to think absolutely massive in fact... and pare down to something you can use, than to try and build up a design from the bare bones... reductive thinking is a powerful tool.
As far as engine design is concerned, perhaps the biggest problem with most submersibles, and in fact most RC craft is moving parts. Someting that moves, wears, simple as that.
Thats why the Seafury is so cool. Twelve fixed direction motors all relying on good software and nothing else. No gimbals, no vanes, no planes and no rudders. Therefore no servos, no places where you need a seal around a moving part. One of the biggest problems with cars is sealing around shafts and stuff that moves, thats where 80 - 90 % of oilleaks come from.
In the case of the Seafury the same sort of principile applies in reverse. No single seal around a moving part and suddenly your depth ability increases, you servicability increases, so does your time between downtime.
Some of you are now going " Ah hah! but what about the motors themselves ? "
Brushless motors...
your fishtank, your pond pump and your bathroom exhaust fan probably all run brushless motors and in the case of the tank and the pond pumps... they are completely immersed. Their internals are in contact with the water and they suffer no problems. Only the outer windings, which do not move are sealed against the water.
There is only one catch, brushless motors, as far as I'm aware are down a little on power in comparison to brushed motors, but.. if I'm correct I think it will be more than a fair trade off, a little loss in motor efficency over a marked gain in reliability.
This is all good fellas... lets keep it tickin over.. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
even 'real' engineers in the US use metric and seeing as I started this thread, the offical measurement in here is metric, to save confusion and keep things sane...
I use both measurement systems, but, when I want to be precise and clear I always use the metric system, but to be fair to the imperialists, ( I find the irony there quite amusing [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] ) :
[url="http://www.onlineconversion.com/"]http://www.onlineconversion.com/[/url]
[quote]Originally posted by Biggles:
[b]I recommend we use this new "cable" technology.
[/b][/quote]
Yes, but cables get in the way and often aren't long enough.
------------------
[url="http://www.3dap.com/hlp"][b]Hard Light Productions[/b][/url] - [i]Our last best hope for Freespace[/i]
"Isn't the universe a wonderful place? I wouldn't want to live anywhere else! Love to stay! Can't! Have to go. Kiss kiss, love love! Bye!" - G'Kar
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Cables are fine if you use them in the right environment. The original seafury will be a model. Cable is fine. The ultimate aim really is for a construction thing. Cable is fine around a construction yard, you just have to be careful about where you put it. Those little subs that get sent down to shipwrecks all run off cable.
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
Well, there's nothing wrong with thiniking big, but I somehow got stuck in the idea that it was a small craft (Under two ft. long, 5 ft. wide) and was only putting in ideas that would fit the spec.
Anyhoo, Something I was going to suggest before, but forgot, is one of those X10 X-Cams. Might be useful, and they're wireless!
Again, I don't think there will be ANY problem with Radio range. Unless you go a few hundred feet out (which is unlikely), you'll never have a problem.
The X-Cam should work for quite a while, too.
Signal quality won't be great, but it'll work.
Actually, I was just thinking, you could have a few of them onboard for different perspectives. Perhaps have a small window on the back of the cockpit for it, and another on each side (as to give a better perspecive, if needed)
So far, though, everything seems fine.
Have you considred possibly using those new induction motors? I rememer hearing of a new development in cooling technology where fan blades were contained within a ring, and this ring was rotated by induction. The said ring is the only moving part, so wear and tear is minimal. Reliability is supposed to be high. What might be a problem is torque. I don't believe they have high torque. So it really would not be good for translation manuvers on the X or Y axis. Instead, a series of them could be used to propel the Seafury forwards over long distances.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Induction motors? New? They've been around for ages! They have significant advantages over DC motors because they don't need to have power to the inner core. As a result they don't need brushes. You just have the windings stationary around the core. The problem is that induction motors require a lot of power to get high torque out of them. They are usually 3-phase AC.
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
and yeah, torque is something you need alot of for water propulsion, which is a cast iron bitch... juts have to hope the power to weight etc is favourable
Well, I'm speaking of a slightly different style of induction motor.
Instead of the drive being at the center, the ring holding the blades is propelled from the outside.
Anyhoo, here's one example: [url="http://www.ystech.com.tw/Tmd/tmd-0.htm"]http://www.ystech.com.tw/Tmd/tmd-0.htm[/url]
the edge driven 'disc' motor is probably the ticket, thanks Sanfam, given such a large space for windings, some of the inefficency of the induction motor can be alleviated, large windings are possible because of the larger diameter, water cooled by the media in which the vessels travelling in.. ( [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] ) . The only downer is weight and energy consumption which may be high... again a case of weighing it up. I still think not having to seal rotating shafts is an absolute godsend and a chief selling point for a Seafury.
I think I might just go make a descreet e-mail to these guys and see what they say.
Comments
[b]powerful battery to run this sucker, and thats going to weigh a ton by comparison!
You're also going to need a way to remove it and/or recharge it on the go.
[/b][/quote]
1: The ballast tanks described before come unter the heading of 'control'. For fundamental bouyancy to counter the weight, any part of the craft that isnt a 'system' can be replaced with a hollow, air filled section.
2: A Crane. - no not the bird, the big metal things. Because thats how big this think is going to end up unless you get some extremely fine, precision engineering of all the components done.
Besides, Big = stable.
Here are the plans:
[url="http://www.hasslberger.com/tecno/hydrogen.html"]http://www.hasslberger.com/tecno/hydrogen.html[/url]
[url="http://www.hasslberger.com/img/plan1.gif"]http://www.hasslberger.com/img/plan1.gif[/url]
[url="http://www.hasslberger.com/img/plan2.gif"]http://www.hasslberger.com/img/plan2.gif[/url]
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 04-13-2002).]
Once you know the size, you know what you can fit, and where - once you have the basics then you can afford to consider taking things further [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
Another alternative is to hook it up to surface cables. You can have power, control (I'd look at fiberoptics; flexible and light weight) and an air supply (for ballast) running to the submersible.
Just an idea.
[b]Why not use the hydrogen in the water for fuel? That way you don't have to carry fuel, just the plant to pull the hydrogen from the water, which fuels a turbine, which turns a generator to create the electricity you need to run the impellers and operational systems.
Here are the plans:
[url="http://www.hasslberger.com/tecno/hydrogen.html"]http://www.hasslberger.com/tecno/hydrogen.html[/url]
[url="http://www.hasslberger.com/img/plan1.gif"]http://www.hasslberger.com/img/plan1.gif[/url]
[url="http://www.hasslberger.com/img/plan2.gif"]http://www.hasslberger.com/img/plan2.gif[/url]
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 04-13-2002).][/b][/quote]
How heavy are the fuel cells, or catalyst cells?
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
(which is why submarines must surface to transmit and receive messages).
It would have to be sonar based, which is succeptable to all sorts of noise, interference, and, well, bandwidth issues.
-R.
------------------
[i]"...Never start a fight...but [b]always[/b] finish it."[/i]
Is it just me, or is everyone here thinking *too* big?
as far as size goes I decided to fix it @
1200 x 600 x 400 or thereabouts. Why that big ? Well it means there should be some space left by the time all crucial systems are on board. I'd like enough room for a camera if nothing else. My feeling is this craft is not one you could fly from 'third person' or externally, seeing through its 'cockpit' would make controlling it much more intuitive and as far as I'm aware thats the way most drones work.
I just wonder how long you can make a firewire cable... I could just whack my Sony Handycam in if I could get a cable long enough without signal loss... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
A hydrogen cell would be good but theres one problem, saline water will completely clag up the electrodes in a converter, so this would limit the "Seafuries" activity to fresh water, and quite clean water at that... every speck of crud that enters the system will coat and muck up the internals of the system. Having some sort of filter would perhaps help but thats more weight and more pump power and... you know the story. I think perhaps this is for a 'full scale' manned version where there is a bigger margin for equipment.
Yeah RC is limited is water, but my intention is to never be too far away from the critter in the first place. Secondly tethers are ok for most situation and offer more flexibility with payload once internal power sources are not required. In a full scale application I guess tethers would have to be employed, if only for safety and system integrity.
There is also nothing wrong with thinking big, its better to think absolutely massive in fact... and pare down to something you can use, than to try and build up a design from the bare bones... reductive thinking is a powerful tool.
As far as engine design is concerned, perhaps the biggest problem with most submersibles, and in fact most RC craft is moving parts. Someting that moves, wears, simple as that.
Thats why the Seafury is so cool. Twelve fixed direction motors all relying on good software and nothing else. No gimbals, no vanes, no planes and no rudders. Therefore no servos, no places where you need a seal around a moving part. One of the biggest problems with cars is sealing around shafts and stuff that moves, thats where 80 - 90 % of oilleaks come from.
In the case of the Seafury the same sort of principile applies in reverse. No single seal around a moving part and suddenly your depth ability increases, you servicability increases, so does your time between downtime.
Some of you are now going " Ah hah! but what about the motors themselves ? "
Brushless motors...
your fishtank, your pond pump and your bathroom exhaust fan probably all run brushless motors and in the case of the tank and the pond pumps... they are completely immersed. Their internals are in contact with the water and they suffer no problems. Only the outer windings, which do not move are sealed against the water.
There is only one catch, brushless motors, as far as I'm aware are down a little on power in comparison to brushed motors, but.. if I'm correct I think it will be more than a fair trade off, a little loss in motor efficency over a marked gain in reliability.
This is all good fellas... lets keep it tickin over.. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
even 'real' engineers in the US use metric and seeing as I started this thread, the offical measurement in here is metric, to save confusion and keep things sane...
I use both measurement systems, but, when I want to be precise and clear I always use the metric system, but to be fair to the imperialists, ( I find the irony there quite amusing [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] ) :
[url="http://www.onlineconversion.com/"]http://www.onlineconversion.com/[/url]
[b]I recommend we use this new "cable" technology.
[/b][/quote]
Yes, but cables get in the way and often aren't long enough.
------------------
[url="http://www.3dap.com/hlp"][b]Hard Light Productions[/b][/url] - [i]Our last best hope for Freespace[/i]
"Isn't the universe a wonderful place? I wouldn't want to live anywhere else! Love to stay! Can't! Have to go. Kiss kiss, love love! Bye!" - G'Kar
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
Anyhoo, Something I was going to suggest before, but forgot, is one of those X10 X-Cams. Might be useful, and they're wireless!
Again, I don't think there will be ANY problem with Radio range. Unless you go a few hundred feet out (which is unlikely), you'll never have a problem.
The X-Cam should work for quite a while, too.
Signal quality won't be great, but it'll work.
Actually, I was just thinking, you could have a few of them onboard for different perspectives. Perhaps have a small window on the back of the cockpit for it, and another on each side (as to give a better perspecive, if needed)
So far, though, everything seems fine.
Have you considred possibly using those new induction motors? I rememer hearing of a new development in cooling technology where fan blades were contained within a ring, and this ring was rotated by induction. The said ring is the only moving part, so wear and tear is minimal. Reliability is supposed to be high. What might be a problem is torque. I don't believe they have high torque. So it really would not be good for translation manuvers on the X or Y axis. Instead, a series of them could be used to propel the Seafury forwards over long distances.
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
same thing
and yeah, torque is something you need alot of for water propulsion, which is a cast iron bitch... juts have to hope the power to weight etc is favourable
Instead of the drive being at the center, the ring holding the blades is propelled from the outside.
Anyhoo, here's one example: [url="http://www.ystech.com.tw/Tmd/tmd-0.htm"]http://www.ystech.com.tw/Tmd/tmd-0.htm[/url]
I think I might just go make a descreet e-mail to these guys and see what they say.