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wet fury
shadow boxer
The Finger Painter & Master Ranter
in Babylon 5
we all know that NASA tests most of its space stuff in a gigantic water tank.
what would be wrong with a Wetfury ?
prop based thrusters
ballast/boyancy tanks to get it neutral in the water...
How cool would that be, even at 1/10th scale tethered control model.
Does anyone have any experience with radio control modelling ?
I'm pretty confident I could knock up the chassis, perhaps the tanks and ancillaries in light guage steel... ( I can't afford aluminium), but the RC and control gear is beyond me. Thankfully this is not an Aircraft so weight is not an issue. Besides which steel properly sealed will have no problems and be emminently more fixable than aluminium when it crashes.. and crash it will.. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
I guess we'd end up with basically a Maintenance Fury with the proper four engine design.
I'd love the opportunity to prove that the Starfury physics/flight model is a practical and powerful design.
The fact that the engine vectors are fixed, no variable surfaces and servos required is a bonus, just fixed engines.
The other thing is perhaps control software... turning stick/s inputs into movement of the craft.
I have to ask my mate about the hydrodynamics, his Dad is an acoustic scientist in the defence industries, ( submarines ). I reckon the Wetfury could perhaps go places...
I reckon the bouyancy balance could be an autonomous function...an echo-sensor for depth perception and it would be easy... as long as you eliminate genuine control movements from the equation... thats good software.
Mercury switches/slides for pitch and yaw sensing etc... you could give the Fury basic awareness of its position in the water...
lets run through this fellas...
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
comments please
what would be wrong with a Wetfury ?
prop based thrusters
ballast/boyancy tanks to get it neutral in the water...
How cool would that be, even at 1/10th scale tethered control model.
Does anyone have any experience with radio control modelling ?
I'm pretty confident I could knock up the chassis, perhaps the tanks and ancillaries in light guage steel... ( I can't afford aluminium), but the RC and control gear is beyond me. Thankfully this is not an Aircraft so weight is not an issue. Besides which steel properly sealed will have no problems and be emminently more fixable than aluminium when it crashes.. and crash it will.. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
I guess we'd end up with basically a Maintenance Fury with the proper four engine design.
I'd love the opportunity to prove that the Starfury physics/flight model is a practical and powerful design.
The fact that the engine vectors are fixed, no variable surfaces and servos required is a bonus, just fixed engines.
The other thing is perhaps control software... turning stick/s inputs into movement of the craft.
I have to ask my mate about the hydrodynamics, his Dad is an acoustic scientist in the defence industries, ( submarines ). I reckon the Wetfury could perhaps go places...
I reckon the bouyancy balance could be an autonomous function...an echo-sensor for depth perception and it would be easy... as long as you eliminate genuine control movements from the equation... thats good software.
Mercury switches/slides for pitch and yaw sensing etc... you could give the Fury basic awareness of its position in the water...
lets run through this fellas...
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
comments please
Comments
Actually, some questions and suggestions:
Those props would have to spin very fast to get the starfury rotating.
You might have to resort to "virtual" thrusters. i.e. Small extensions coming off, containing much larger engines than would fit in the body to rotate it. Perhaps, supported by a clear plastic? (plexiglass? lexan?)
Actually, if the builder had the effort, he/she could put in turbines, or a high-volume pump instead of the prop. These could be contained within the engine cavity, and could be a ducting system. Simple solenoids to redirect the moving water.
this is what I have in mind... very simple just like the Fury itself.. fixed thrust... very very simple engineering, and probably very sophisticated software engineering.
the main engine you see from front on here would simply be reversed for 'braking' and eventual reverse thrust...and of course pitch...
the control thrusters top,starboard and port would all be thrust 'out'.
I've got another pic coming to explain the boyancy control system...
this chamber/vessel has to be in the vehicles exact centre of gravity. With a vehicle like the Fury in water with its innate maneauverability would mean a regular ballast tank would slosh about like a cocktail shaker and screw the vehicluar control.. so
The "Womb" system.
The pale red bladder is a silicon/butyl rubber bladder, like a real thick and tough version of the one you find inside your average basketball. It has moulded umbilical style springs cast at the six points shown in the left diagramme. Those points anchor it to the main shell of the system It is inflated and deflated by either an air pump or compressed cylinder. The cavity surrounding the bladder is simply allowed to vent into the water surrounding the vessel, multipile vents would be a good idea to prevent adverse thrusting action if the bladder is inflated quickly and the fluid creates a jet.
It may be better to pump the water rather than the air...I'm not a hydraulic engineer.
this system would be, I imagine only really good for shallow water...the pressures involved may preclude the use of this system.
I'm no naval architect and the exact size and air/water ratio of this is not something I can work out right here... but is there something I've missed theoretically ?
Ballast should be easy to adjust. Here's a basic idea:
have a small, contained unit. Inside of this unit is a balloon filled with a low-density gas. nothing can escape the balloon. outside of the balloon, but in the container, are two pumps. One in, one out. Valves could prevent water from flowing where it's not supposed to.
Anyhoo, as water is pumped in, the balloon compresses. This increases density, and lowers bouyancy. As water is pumped out, density is lowered. Bouyancy increases.
This is what I'd use. It's a simple system, but works very well.
[This message has been edited by Sanfam (edited 04-07-2002).]
In my case, though, the air supply would be constant. Density would be altered to cause a bouyancy change.
[url="http://www.geocities.com/craegs/bouy2.jpg"]http://www.geocities.com/craegs/bouy2.jpg[/url]
Biggles, Sanfam and I have been having some discussion in ICQ... turbulence and lack of "slippery-ness" has cropped up.. my answer to that is this... this design belongs in space... otherwise its a design for tight station keeping in six axes... not boiling water as it speeds through the ocean...
its a building bot... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
anyone else see any problems with applying this design ?
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
You could have four of these units. One one near each engine unit. This could drastically improve the Wetfury's ability to roll under water by causing a portion to sink, and another to float. It should also allow for "fine-tuning" of a flight position.
By assisting in manuvers, I mean by assisting rising and falling.
If the pumps are strong enough, you could completely remove, or nearly fill the ballast container with water. This could produce rapid acceleration in the Y-axis. Add in the thruster motors, and you've got one speedy craft.
Now, rolls of all sorts could be assisted by having the ballast containers flooded and emptied rapidly.
Here's another idea to consider: Compressed air/CO_2 canisters for a rapid recovery in the event of a ballast failure. The air bags would be instantly flooded with air, and would cause the wetfury to wise to the surface for recovery. This would also be important if battery power was low. I'd imagine the wetfury would require a bit of effort to pull out (and I'm sure a harpoon gun is out of the picture [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img])
I just had a neat idea:
those thrusters could be powered by a CO2 canister within the main wetfury chassis.
In addition to having the thruster rotated by the CO2, the escaping gasses would provide just *that* much more of a push. Every little thing should help.
The problem holding back ordinary submarines is drag. Any object, no matter how streamlined, suffers resistance as it moves through a fluid. What's more, the power needed to overcome drag is proportional to the cube of an object's speed. So each incremental improvement in propulsion technology produces only a meager increase in speed.
In the early 1960s, Mikhail Merkulov at the Hydrodynamics Institute in Kiev realized that the solution lay in a phenomenon called [i]cavitation[/i].
When a body moves rapidly through a fluid, the pressure at various points on the body--at trailing edges, for example--is reduced. The faster the body moves, the lower the pressure becomes. When the pressure reduces enough to equal the vapor pressure of the fluid, the liquid state is no longer sustainable. With not enough pressure to hold them together, the liquid molecules vaporize and form cavities, or bubbles.
But [i]supercavitation[/i] is a different matter. Under certain conditions, a single bubble or supercavity can be formed, enveloping the moving object almost completely. A supercavitating body has extremely low drag, because its skin friction almost disappears. Instead of being encased in water, it is surrounded by the water vapor in the supercavity, which has much lower viscosity and density. So in a supercavitating vehicle, only the nose of the craft causes significant drag, because this is the only part of the body actually in contact with the water. The blunter the nose, the higher its drag. So the best nose is usually slightly curved. The overall drag reduces enormously once you reach the supercavitating regime and then increases only linearly with speed. With much of the drag eliminated, very high speeds become possible.
There is one problem: with only the nose of the craft actually touching the water, conventional propellers wouldn't work, so an entirely new form of underwater propulsion was called for. The solution was simply to mount a rocket motor on the back. Rockets work in empty space, so having no water to push against isn't a problem. They also provide an immensely powerful kick. But while the ideas are simple, turning them into a working torpedo is hard. In particular, there are problems with stability and finding materials strong enough to stop the nose from buckling under the extreme pressures. And at the speeds achievable, the cavity is not long enough to envelop the whole torpedo. So the Russian torpedo was designed to generate an artificial cavity [i]by feeding part of its exhaust out through the nose.[/i] If the speed of the object is not high enough to travel through the vapor cavity before it collapses, then artificial ventilation into the cavity can keep it open until the object moves past.
Now we have a FAST, wet Fury.
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/cool.gif[/img]
If it were enveloped in a bubble of vapor, though, could re really call it a "Wet Fury"?
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
yeah... I know a Mk 28 torpedo does around 60kts... I'm familiar with submarine warfare, but not the theoretical stuff you've mentioned.
This actually gets me thinking tho... a torpedo moving at 60kts takes a bloody long time to circle back around if it misses or loses a sonar contact... if a Hydrofury was capable of VIFFing it may just be able to dodge the sucker and let the tinfish run out of batteries.
I guess its a question of the torpedoes maneauverabilty, how tight can it turn, alter course etc ?
Besides which, caviation makes bubbles... when those bubbles pop it makes a nice little noise... a few thousand going off at once produces ALOT of noise... basically you are screamimg "PLEASE BLOW ME UP" at the top of your proverbial lungs.
Speaking of spotting subs... I read somewhere that the next generation of subs will all be arrow shaped, skinny piercing designs... why you ask ? Because they have developed software capable of filtering out wave action from sattelite images on the oceans surface.. peeling back the skin on the custard so to speak... and the current subs wake.. even if it is 100+ down... shows up like a ducks wake on a millpond... scary stuff.
Anyways... my goal was to build a simple prototype... then maybe flog it to NASA or some sort of defense industry, but thats not really the primary goal... the primary goal is to make a Fury that actually works...
I think the fury design would make an admirable survey vessel for undersea research... it should be capable of bloody accurate station keeping..
edit = 'from sattelite images'
[This message has been edited by shadow boxer (edited 04-08-2002).]
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
------------------
'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen
Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://www.nialb5.com"]www.NialB5.com[/url].
Translation: Biggles does everything Everyone else doesn't want to do. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/tongue.gif[/img]
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[b]Sanfam[/b] - Pixel Pirates
[b][url="http://www.firstones.com/sanfam/guru.doc"]disillusionment[/b] v1.0[/url]; "We will have our day, we will have our future, and we will have our revolution."
Come and listen to the official shoutcast server of Firstones.com! It's Spootastic! [url="http://sanfam.dyndns.org:8000"]http://sanfam.dyndns.org:8000[/url]
"It is the year 2000. Where are the flying cars? I was Promised flying cars. I don't see any flying cars." -- Avery "Sisko" Brooks
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
[quote]Originally posted by Randy:
[b][i]supercavitation[/i] is a different matter. Under certain conditions, a single bubble or supercavity can be formed, enveloping the moving object almost completely. A supercavitating body has extremely low drag, because its skin friction almost disappears. Instead of being encased in water, it is surrounded by the water vapor in the supercavity, which has much lower viscosity and density. So in a supercavitating vehicle, only the nose of the craft causes significant drag, because this is the only part of the body actually in contact with the water. The blunter the nose, the higher its drag. So the best nose is usually slightly curved. The overall drag reduces enormously once you reach the supercavitating regime and then increases only linearly with speed. With much of the drag eliminated, very high speeds become possible.[/b][/quote]
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[b]Pedal power! Biggles is chief of all menial tasks aboard the P.S. Wet Fury. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/tongue.gif[/img]
Translation: Biggles does everything Everyone else doesn't want to do. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/tongue.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]
ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!
Haaaaa! I have a great image of that! Heeeee! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
------------------
'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen
Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://www.nialb5.com"]www.NialB5.com[/url].
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
I'd thing that an underwater ducted fan type thing would work best, sucking in water from the sides or something, then sending it to the 4 wings and controling movement by directing the water through valves, some sort of flap-like thing to cut off the water and have it redirect to the other arm type things.
Four independent impellers, gimbaled, would offer the multidirectional thrust required to move on all axes. If you really wanted to get fancy, you could make eight smaller impellers, four in front, four in back.
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[url="http://www.3dap.com/hlp"][b]Hard Light Productions[/b][/url] - [i]Our last best hope for Freespace[/i]
"Isn't the universe a wonderful place? I wouldn't want to live anywhere else! Love to stay! Can't! Have to go. Kiss kiss, love love! Bye!" - G'Kar
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras