Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
[quote]Originally posted by Vertigo1:
[b] Funny, but true. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img][/b][/quote]
Which is exactly the problem. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
Loved those episodes, best of TNG. First time I saw it I figured those things were missiles or torpedoes or something.
"From this time forward you will service... [i]us[/i]."
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There are 3 things in life I never forget: my friends, my enemies, and my access codes.
Never put gasoline in a fire extinguisher.
"No government, no dictator can hold an imprisioned population by force of arms forever. There is no power in the universe greater than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies [i]cannot stand[/i]." - G'Kar, [i]The Long Twighlight Struggle[/i]
Thanks. I'd like to claim Im a genious but Ive blattently ripped off my ideas from Dream Pod 9 and David Gerrold. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] Not to mention too many multi hour Harpoon Games featuring tons of cat and mouse..
Anyways to rebutt against Biggles point about all combat happening in a solar system, you have a definate point, but my argument still holds. High powered active sensors can sweep through out the solar system of course, but radar/ladar microwave all travel at light speed so going out to say saturn and jupiter from earth would take several minutes, so pin pointing a target is tricky
And even in the more limited volumes of space were talking about, say the distance between Earth and Mars when they are both aligned, thats still a hell of alot of space to cover with radar/ladar/microwave what ever the hell have you. Rember active sensor emissions travel (for energy based sensors) at light speed and the distances we are talking about give a minute or two lag. It can be done, but it will require a powerfull emitter to give you the necessary resolution to spot targets. if your dumping out that much power to cover the orbit area between Earth and Mars they are going to be picking you up past the asteroid belt, and probably shoot at the emitter, alot.
Basicly space warfare will be like modern naval warfare (which involves alot of hide and seek still, the navy has whole books on EW) And the advantages will go to the sneaky bastard who figures out where his enemy is first and gets the first major volley off.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
That is true, but you have to remember that getting the first shot off will become a lot harder. As you said, there are extensive delays because of the huge distances and the (comparitively) low speed of electromagnetic radiation. This means that when you fire your missles or lasers, there will be yet more delay before they get to where the target [i]was[/i]. In a few minutes the target can easily move out of the way. This will make space combat at large ranges difficult.
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[quote]Originally posted by Biggles:
[b]That is true, but you have to remember that getting the first shot off will become a lot harder. As you said, there are extensive delays because of the huge distances and the (comparitively) low speed of electromagnetic radiation. This means that when you fire your missles or lasers, there will be yet more delay before they get to where the target [i]was[/i]. In a few minutes the target can easily move out of the way. This will make space combat at large ranges difficult.
[/b][/quote]
This largely depends on the type of propulsion used. In the case of normal reaction drives with speed still measured in mach numbers, you're probably not gonna get anywhere.
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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
On the other hand, it is reasonable to assume that if we invent FTL propulsion, long distance firing will not be likely with the exception of FTL missiles. Lasers and other sublight weapons would be used by using the FTL drive to get in close and firing them.
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
Got a definate point there Biggles, but the speed of a vessel, if dramaticly sub light wont let it move very far, and secondly you have to have your sensors on to detect the incoming fire, thus making you a target.
Even then detecting incoming energy weapons could theoreticly be impossible, becaus by the time you picked up the signatures of the weapon fired, you would already be hit.. catch 22 there. The energy signal of the weapon discharging matches the speed of the damaging energy discharge. One of the disturbing things about modern day naval combat is that it is quite possible when dealing with the right weapon systems to not realize your under attack untill its too damn late.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Ultimately, if we have FTL drive then battles will be quick and close-quarters. Without it, battles will be over huge distances but also over huge periods of time. Unless you get killed in one shot.
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Biggles:
[B]Ultimately, if we have FTL drive then battles will be quick and close-quarters. Without it, battles will be over huge distances but also over huge periods of time. Unless you get killed in one shot.
with FTL drive things do get more interesting, especialy dependent on the potenitaly signatures of the drive, that would make all the difference. and then combat would involve alot missles probably, so it would depend on the weapons envelope. All in all with the introduction of FTL, things get ambigious till we know what other technological assumptions we would be dealing with.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
I agree. FTL would mean (if it can fit, and probably even if it can't) FTL missiles being the main weapon. The impact alone would do massive damage.
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[quote]Originally posted by Biggles:
[b]The impact alone would do massive damage.
[/b][/quote]
Not realy.
The problem is that according to Einsteins theory of relativity FTL travel is not possible.
But that doesn't mean you can't do it. You need a trick to do it, bypassing the laws of physics.
You can get from A to B faster than Light without actually going FTL (confused already? [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] )
This can be done by travelling in another dimesion (=Hyperspace).
In a 3-dimensional Space the shortest connection between 2 Points is always a straight line. In a multidimensional Space (meaning more than 3) you can find a connection that is shorter than a straight line (don't try to imagine how this looks like. I will not be held responsible if your head explodes)
Ok, now what does that mean?
Take a sheet of paper and draw 2 dots on it. What's the shortest connection? Obviously a straight line.
Wrong, there is a shorter one:
Fold the pice of paper so the 2 dots touch eache other. That's the shortest connection.
A trick? Of course, but that's what we need to do to go FTL
During the FTL travel your actual speed would never realy be above lightspeed (as this is impossible) so the impact velocity alone wouldn't make a good weapon
[quote]Originally posted by Alex:
[b] Take a sheet of paper and draw 2 dots on it. What's the shortest connection? Obviously a straight line.
Wrong, there is a shorter one:
Fold the pice of paper so the 2 dots touch eache other. That's the shortest connection.
[/b][/quote]
I've always thought this would be the way we travel to the stars some day. Not by FTL travel or by hyperspace, but by folding space and mearly making the leap from point to point...along the lines of Event Horizon (without the hell thing) or the ships in the Foundation series of books.
Jake
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
[quote]Originally posted by Alex:
[b]During the FTL travel your actual speed would never realy be above lightspeed (as this is impossible) so the impact velocity alone wouldn't make a good weapon[/b][/quote]
I see your point. I was meaning that impact at FTL speeds would be devastating, but as you reminded me this is (theoretically) impossible. Still, FTL drive would make a huge difference with the "hyperspace" method, as chances are anything in hyperspace would not be detectable from normal space and so when dropping into normal space you would seem to appear like in Star Wars or maybe with the addition of a jump point like effect. Either way, your missile would suddenly be very close to the enemy ship with a very large explosive device. Evasion would not be possible unless the traversal from hyperspace to normal space takes a considerable quantity of time and allows for early detection of the missile.
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
Comments
[b]And modifying the deflector dish to do everything from create a time warp to making the dinner.
[/b][/quote]
Funny, but true. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
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[url="http://www.3dap.com/hlp"][b]Hard Light Productions[/b][/url] - [i]Our last best hope for Freespace[/i]
"Isn't the universe a wonderful place? I wouldn't want to live anywhere else! Love to stay! Can't! Have to go. Kiss kiss, love love! Bye!" - G'Kar
[b] Funny, but true. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img][/b][/quote]
Which is exactly the problem. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
I realized that the Mars defense grid ships were fighters.
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
[b]Watched the two part Borg episode of TNG the other day on TNN's Trek marathon.
I realized that the Mars defense grid ships were fighters.
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img][/b][/quote]
Um, no... They're large autonomous defense drones designed to ram their intended target.
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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
[b]Watched the two part Borg episode of TNG the other day on TNN's Trek marathon.
I realized that the Mars defense grid ships were fighters.
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img][/b][/quote]
Loved those episodes, best of TNG. First time I saw it I figured those things were missiles or torpedoes or something.
"From this time forward you will service... [i]us[/i]."
------------------
There are 3 things in life I never forget: my friends, my enemies, and my access codes.
Never put gasoline in a fire extinguisher.
"No government, no dictator can hold an imprisioned population by force of arms forever. There is no power in the universe greater than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies [i]cannot stand[/i]." - G'Kar, [i]The Long Twighlight Struggle[/i]
[B]I like the way Tyvar thinks about space...
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
Thanks. I'd like to claim Im a genious but Ive blattently ripped off my ideas from Dream Pod 9 and David Gerrold. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] Not to mention too many multi hour Harpoon Games featuring tons of cat and mouse..
Anyways to rebutt against Biggles point about all combat happening in a solar system, you have a definate point, but my argument still holds. High powered active sensors can sweep through out the solar system of course, but radar/ladar microwave all travel at light speed so going out to say saturn and jupiter from earth would take several minutes, so pin pointing a target is tricky
And even in the more limited volumes of space were talking about, say the distance between Earth and Mars when they are both aligned, thats still a hell of alot of space to cover with radar/ladar/microwave what ever the hell have you. Rember active sensor emissions travel (for energy based sensors) at light speed and the distances we are talking about give a minute or two lag. It can be done, but it will require a powerfull emitter to give you the necessary resolution to spot targets. if your dumping out that much power to cover the orbit area between Earth and Mars they are going to be picking you up past the asteroid belt, and probably shoot at the emitter, alot.
Basicly space warfare will be like modern naval warfare (which involves alot of hide and seek still, the navy has whole books on EW) And the advantages will go to the sneaky bastard who figures out where his enemy is first and gets the first major volley off.
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[b]That is true, but you have to remember that getting the first shot off will become a lot harder. As you said, there are extensive delays because of the huge distances and the (comparitively) low speed of electromagnetic radiation. This means that when you fire your missles or lasers, there will be yet more delay before they get to where the target [i]was[/i]. In a few minutes the target can easily move out of the way. This will make space combat at large ranges difficult.
[/b][/quote]
This largely depends on the type of propulsion used. In the case of normal reaction drives with speed still measured in mach numbers, you're probably not gonna get anywhere.
------------------
"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
aaannnyyyways..
Got a definate point there Biggles, but the speed of a vessel, if dramaticly sub light wont let it move very far, and secondly you have to have your sensors on to detect the incoming fire, thus making you a target.
Even then detecting incoming energy weapons could theoreticly be impossible, becaus by the time you picked up the signatures of the weapon fired, you would already be hit.. catch 22 there. The energy signal of the weapon discharging matches the speed of the damaging energy discharge. One of the disturbing things about modern day naval combat is that it is quite possible when dealing with the right weapon systems to not realize your under attack untill its too damn late.
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[B]Ultimately, if we have FTL drive then battles will be quick and close-quarters. Without it, battles will be over huge distances but also over huge periods of time. Unless you get killed in one shot.
with FTL drive things do get more interesting, especialy dependent on the potenitaly signatures of the drive, that would make all the difference. and then combat would involve alot missles probably, so it would depend on the weapons envelope. All in all with the introduction of FTL, things get ambigious till we know what other technological assumptions we would be dealing with.
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[b]The impact alone would do massive damage.
[/b][/quote]
Not realy.
The problem is that according to Einsteins theory of relativity FTL travel is not possible.
But that doesn't mean you can't do it. You need a trick to do it, bypassing the laws of physics.
You can get from A to B faster than Light without actually going FTL (confused already? [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] )
This can be done by travelling in another dimesion (=Hyperspace).
In a 3-dimensional Space the shortest connection between 2 Points is always a straight line. In a multidimensional Space (meaning more than 3) you can find a connection that is shorter than a straight line (don't try to imagine how this looks like. I will not be held responsible if your head explodes)
Ok, now what does that mean?
Take a sheet of paper and draw 2 dots on it. What's the shortest connection? Obviously a straight line.
Wrong, there is a shorter one:
Fold the pice of paper so the 2 dots touch eache other. That's the shortest connection.
A trick? Of course, but that's what we need to do to go FTL
During the FTL travel your actual speed would never realy be above lightspeed (as this is impossible) so the impact velocity alone wouldn't make a good weapon
[b] Take a sheet of paper and draw 2 dots on it. What's the shortest connection? Obviously a straight line.
Wrong, there is a shorter one:
Fold the pice of paper so the 2 dots touch eache other. That's the shortest connection.
[/b][/quote]
I've always thought this would be the way we travel to the stars some day. Not by FTL travel or by hyperspace, but by folding space and mearly making the leap from point to point...along the lines of Event Horizon (without the hell thing) or the ships in the Foundation series of books.
Jake
[b]During the FTL travel your actual speed would never realy be above lightspeed (as this is impossible) so the impact velocity alone wouldn't make a good weapon[/b][/quote]
I see your point. I was meaning that impact at FTL speeds would be devastating, but as you reminded me this is (theoretically) impossible. Still, FTL drive would make a huge difference with the "hyperspace" method, as chances are anything in hyperspace would not be detectable from normal space and so when dropping into normal space you would seem to appear like in Star Wars or maybe with the addition of a jump point like effect. Either way, your missile would suddenly be very close to the enemy ship with a very large explosive device. Evasion would not be possible unless the traversal from hyperspace to normal space takes a considerable quantity of time and allows for early detection of the missile.
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras