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B5/DS9 Debate on Trek BBS
Claudia Trent
Trainee
in Babylon 5
I've just spotted for the umpteenth time, a topic about the comparisions between Babylon 5 and Deep Space 9 on a Trek forum. And yet, I rarely see any of these topics on any B5 forum.
Comments
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
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"When it is time,come to this place,call our name,we will be here"-Walkers of Sigma957
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[b]Believe it or not, many of us Trekkies hate these silly debates as much as you do. They're so utterly pointless.
[/b][/quote]
Exactly. What next, the age old Star Wars is a rip-off of Star Trek debate? Thats just as old, if not older, than this one.
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[url="http://www.3dap.com/hlp"][b]Hard Light Productions[/b][/url] - [i]Our last best hope for Freespace[/i]
"Isn't the universe a wonderful place? I wouldn't want to live anywhere else! Love to stay! Can't! Have to go. Kiss kiss, love love! Bye!" - G'Kar
[b]We [b]could[/b] go on about how paramount didn't like JMS's idea about a space station etc and then decided to make their own series about a "space station" but we won't.. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
[/B][/quote]
Uh-oh, don't go there. We've all had our fill of that [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/eek.gif[/img]
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There are 3 things in life I never forget: my friends, my enemies, and my access codes.
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"No government, no dictator can hold an imprisioned population by force of arms forever. There is no power in the universe greater than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies [i]cannot stand[/i]." - G'Kar, [i]The Long Twighlight Struggle[/i]
they've tried quite alot to treknobabble thier way out of not having anything resembling a fighter class but... to my mind... and quite a few more... no dice.
it's really dumb to think a single seat, small and agile ship has no place in Star trek... (or any other scifi universe )
In the (spoiler i guess) episode of TNG where the borg are closing in on earth, and the Mars defence or soemthing gets sent out to intercept the cube, and it was 3 fighters.. or were they something else?
yes, i think you 're right.
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by JackN (edited 02-14-2002).]
As for what Warble said, that was the drones from the Mars Defense Perimeter. They're not actually manned or fighters. The consensus is that they're large suicide attack drones with a large warhead.
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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[b]I think that fighters of the type seen in DS9 would actually be very good in the Star Trek universe. Most of the ships are large with bulky weapons: photon torpedos and huge phasors. These weapons are designed to hit big ships that won't be moving too fast relative to the attacker (photon torpedos were developed to solve the problem of not having warp capable weapons). If a big ship is suddenly confronted by a bunch of tiny fighters they are going to have trouble hitting them.
[/b][/quote]
Actually, they're quite capable of hitting small targets with pinpoint accuracy. Remember the TNG episode "The Price"? Worf targets and destroys a missile heading for the shuttlepod El-Baz (piloted by Geordi and Data) headed towards the Barzan wormhole. The missile was no bigger than your typical sidewinder missile used today.
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[url="http://www.3dap.com/hlp"][b]Hard Light Productions[/b][/url] - [i]Our last best hope for Freespace[/i]
"Isn't the universe a wonderful place? I wouldn't want to live anywhere else! Love to stay! Can't! Have to go. Kiss kiss, love love! Bye!" - G'Kar
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
The Pereguine class fighter has had a mixed history... When it first appeared in TNG in the hands of the Marquis, they were much smaller than they are now due to a change in scaling. Originally, they were a little bigger than shuttles, but a dozen or so can provide a serious beating to ships of less empires, like the Cardassians. However, during DS9, they suddenly got a lot bigger, making them a lot easier to hit. It only took one shot from a capital ship to destroy one, and the fact any fighters survived an attack run on an enemy ship was due no small part to the shoddy quality of Cardassian warships.
Photon torpedoes are only warp capable when the vessel firing it is at warp. They have a warp sustainer engine, not a warp drive.
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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
I guess when all is said and done its going to be difficult to predict what will actually be.. in terms of military hardware in space.
One thing though makes me think that single seaters will be the go...
You build stuff with a 'maintenance fury'... and your first classes of transports and then fighters stem from those.
evolution and evolution from existing forms.
so I think it will be carrier battle groups in space...
sixty, small, very fast, weapons delivery systems coming back to a large nest/s.
until of course we actually have beam weapons worthy of the name.
missiles.. as much as I hate them are going to dominate atleast for quite a while.
[b]
missiles.. as much as I hate them are going to dominate atleast for quite a while.[/b][/quote]
Probably forever. Real space combat will be more akin to submarine combat. The spaces involved are huge and the weapons likely to be amazingly destructive. It turns into a game of hide and seek, space is big, and one of the things about active sensors is you can see the sensor emissions from a longer range then they can pin point their targets.
Passive sensors need some sort of active emition source, and if you keep your vesses moderatly small, optical sensors of various sorts fit the catagory of looking for a needle in a hay stack.
So basicly its a case of hide and seek, in which the major weapons will be unmanned drones. Manned vessels will be no more then housing for weapon and sensor drones, hiding out in the vast empty wastes of space.
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[b]Believe it or not, many of us Trekkies hate these silly debates as much as you do. They're so utterly pointless.
[/b][/quote]
Ture....
But I don't make debates Becuase I like to many Scifi Shows (Star Trek, Babylon 5, Stargate SG1 Andromanma,starwar ect,)
I only Compare tech. Becuase A lot of the Tech is the same in a alot of these shows.
Like Stargates Hyperdive(Used on Gua'uld and Asgard Ships) is the same as Quantam Slip Stream in Startrek.(I Prefer the the name Slipstream [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img])
[This message has been edited by Captain,Simmonds (edited 02-15-2002).]
[b]Photon torpedoes are only warp capable when the vessel firing it is at warp. They have a warp sustainer engine, not a warp drive.
[/b][/quote]
Thats not true. In the TNG ep "The Emissary", a photon torpedo containing Ambassador K'Ehleyr (pronounced Kaylar) was fired from a starbase to intercept with the Enterprise. Granted, it was modified to do so, but not [b]all[/b] photon torpedoes must be fired from vessels travelling at warp to travel at warp. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
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[url="http://www.3dap.com/hlp"][b]Hard Light Productions[/b][/url] - [i]Our last best hope for Freespace[/i]
"Isn't the universe a wonderful place? I wouldn't want to live anywhere else! Love to stay! Can't! Have to go. Kiss kiss, love love! Bye!" - G'Kar
[b]But missiles have a tendency to fly in a straight line and not have other missiles around to shoot down warheads heading for each other.
[/b][/quote]
I got two words for ya buddy. [b]Guidance system[/b]. We've got that technology today for crying out loud. Very few missiles today are 'dumbfire'.
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[url="http://www.3dap.com/hlp"][b]Hard Light Productions[/b][/url] - [i]Our last best hope for Freespace[/i]
"Isn't the universe a wonderful place? I wouldn't want to live anywhere else! Love to stay! Can't! Have to go. Kiss kiss, love love! Bye!" - G'Kar
[b] I got two words for ya buddy. [b]Guidance system[/b]. We've got that technology today for crying out loud. Very few missiles today are 'dumbfire'.
[/B][/quote]
Its worse then that, they have starting recently using fairly involved random manuver profiles in order to avoid point defenses.
And Biggles, you dont need to hide behind anything in space. If your not emetting radiation, there isnt much to pick up except using optical, and honestly trying to pin point small objects with optical sensors is a whole other ball of wax. there is alot of space out there to look through, and if your target is running dark they arent throwing off any light, so you basicly have to look for reflected light, and if its painted a matt black, you end up looking for where there is NO light.
[b]And Biggles, you dont need to hide behind anything in space. If your not emetting radiation, there isnt much to pick up except using optical, and honestly trying to pin point small objects with optical sensors is a whole other ball of wax. there is alot of space out there to look through, and if your target is running dark they arent throwing off any light, so you basicly have to look for reflected light, and if its painted a matt black, you end up looking for where there is NO light.[/b][/quote]
That's a good point, I didn't think of that. But I do still think that most combat will take place in solar systems or around major spacial features simply because there isn't much worth fighting over in interstellar space.
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[b] Thats not true. In the TNG ep "The Emissary", a photon torpedo containing Ambassador K'Ehleyr (pronounced Kaylar) was fired from a starbase to intercept with the Enterprise. Granted, it was modified to do so, but not [b]all[/b] photon torpedoes must be fired from vessels travelling at warp to travel at warp. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
[/B][/quote]
Plot goof. By design, torpedoes can't go to warp on their own. The special modification mentioned in the episode was about making the torpedoe casing into something that can accomindate a person. Even ST doesn't have the tech to make something warp capable that small.
I think David Weber did a pretty good job on space combat with the Starfire series. I never read the Honor Harrington stuff.
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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
On to fighters in the Trek World. There was a TNG episode where Crusher is at the Acadamy and is flying with his team mates in a dangerous formation to show off for the graduation ceremony that ends up killing one of the team mates. Were those fighter class ships they used?
[b]Photon torpedoes are only warp capable when the vessel firing it is at warp. They have a warp sustainer engine, not a warp drive.[/b][/quote]
I should probably point out that I was aware of that fact and didn't mean that they could go to warp on their own. I meant that they are warp capable as in they can be used at warp.
Jack: I'm pretty sure they were just the usual runabout thing.
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
Originally posted by JackN
[b]Were those fighter class ships they used?
[/b[/quote]
I think they were as that squad was suppose to be the best cadet squad there was....
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"When it is time,come to this place,call our name,we will be here"-Walkers of Sigma957
[url="http://ifh.firstones.com"]I've Found Her-Babylon 5 free game[/url]
[b]On to fighters in the Trek World. There was a TNG episode where Crusher is at the Acadamy and is flying with his team mates in a dangerous formation to show off for the graduation ceremony that ends up killing one of the team mates. Were those fighter class ships they used?[/b][/quote]
Academy trainer craft, not actually a fighter.
[url="http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schematics/shuttle-chart-980.jpg"]http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schematics/shuttle-chart-980.jpg[/url]
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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
The fighter seen in DS9 was of the Pereguine class. (Thanks go to the saint for reminding me of the name)
This was the same model used for the Maquis Raider, except with a different cockpit piece for the purposes of scale. And boy, did it make a difference. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
The Academy trainer was seen in TNG. It's a fun, fun craft that apparently is destroyed just too easily.
[This message has been edited by Sanfam (edited 02-17-2002).]
[b] Plot goof. By design, torpedoes can't go to warp on their own. The special modification mentioned in the episode was about making the torpedoe casing into something that can accomindate a person. Even ST doesn't have the tech to make something warp capable that small.[/b][/quote]
If it happened on-screen, its canon. No way around it. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] Besides, we all know how good starfleet engineers are about making stuff out of toothpicks and rubber bands to save the day.
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[url="http://www.3dap.com/hlp"][b]Hard Light Productions[/b][/url] - [i]Our last best hope for Freespace[/i]
"Isn't the universe a wonderful place? I wouldn't want to live anywhere else! Love to stay! Can't! Have to go. Kiss kiss, love love! Bye!" - G'Kar
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras