[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Prince of Persia was out for PC as well... [/B][/QUOTE]Yes, as is Grand Theft Auto. I had meant to state that certain games just can't be translated for the PC; Prince of Persia is awful with a keyboard and mouse, as is Grand Theft Auto.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]A:@Biggles
next up: Sound. PC Games = stereo, 4.1, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1 shoot...whatever your soundcard can handle and your game supports.
console? Stereo. Unless I'm mistaken and they have surround sound? Meh...matters not.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, they do now support surround. Game cube as far as i know only supports Pro-Logic II tough. And although the ps2 has an optical out for Dobly Digital, very few games actually use Dobly Digital, preffering to stick with PLII. This is probably due to the fact that ps2 can only do dolby digital during movies and cutscenes etc., not in game. The only ps2 game i can think of that actually used this was Metal Gear Solid 2. However, the xbox does support dobly digital in game and the majority of Xbox games do support Dolby Digital IF you buy the advanced av pack which lets you use an optical audio cable.
So the surround support is there, but you are correct in daying that it is better on a PC.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Consoles have surround sound built in. My PS2 has an optical connector on the back, plus the ability to connect to surround systems in a variety of other ways.
The graphics arn't that far behind PC graphics. As I said, I've seen my PS2 do effects that a top of the line video card could only dream of, and FFX had real time facial expressions long before HL2. Consider that this is happening on a system with supposedly far less power than current PCs. They may be getting left behind at last, but it's taken a while.
The PS3 and other next generation consoles are going to be capable of, to put it bluntly, some fucking incredible stuff. The reason for this? The PS2, the Gamecube, the PS3, and other nextgen consoles are designed as a whole for one purpose: to draw pretty pictures really really fast. The entire architecture of the PS2 is built around graphics. PCs are limited in their gaming potential by archaic designs from the days when all anybody could think of to do with a PC was write letters, and the fact that they are general purpose machines and must be built as such.
The xbox supports HDTV so there isn't much limitation there.
So basically, it comes down to games. I only have my PS2 for console RPGs and the occasional other gem that comes along. If you don't play any games you need a console for, there's no reason to get one. But if you do, you shouldn't use other things like graphics capability and sound capability as an excuse. :) I certainly thought a few years ago that I'd never by a console, but then my gaming tastes suffered a dramatic shift.
I've yet to see a Console game that looked better then a PC game.
FFX is close, but then you take into concideration that it's running at less then 640x480, and suddenly you relize why they can do a little more.
I mean, the XBox is arguable the most poweful of the current consoles, yet when you look at what they have to do to a game like Doom3 to get it to run on it = yikes.
so, yes, I can use graphics as an excuse. ;)
as for sound. Good to know.
as for control interface...shoot, theres hundereds of control pads for the PC, and you can even take a regular XBox/Gamecube/PS2 gamepad and modify it to work on the PC if you want. (Ok, thats a little harder, but it's doable).
So the control thing isn't an excuse for using a console at all.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
FFX is ancient. Xenosaga Ep 2 makes FFX look like a 486 game. :)
Also, with the XBox: that's because technically it's a computer. Unlike the PS2 and Gamecube, it's not specifically designed for games. It's still a general purpose machine, just in a pretty box.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]yes, but 99.99999999% of gamecube and PS2 games are far far FAR beneith the quality of PC games even a few years old...
there are the few cream of the crop that look good, but for the most part?
nope...
[/B][/QUOTE]Outright fallacy. The quality to be found in either variety of games is virtually identical; some good games, some bad games, tons of merely average games. I would contend that PC games and console games are not comparable in terms of quality, because the gaming experience is inherently different with a controller than it is with a keyboard and mouse. Games like [i]Prince of Persia[/i] and [i]Katamari Damacy[/i] (don't ever accuse console titles of lacking originality :D) simply don't work on PC, because the controls to not easily lend themselves to PC translation. Similarly, games like [i]Half-Life 2[/i] and [i]Far Cry[/i] would be dismal failures on any console.
Also, I say this with no statistical evidence, but it seems to me that the market for consoles and console games is growing much more quickly than that of PC games.
I'm never buying a console though, aside from portable ones like the PSP/Gameboy.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[b]hows this for size:
Console = gaming only
PC = everything else + gaming
I see consoles as a waste of money, and frankly wouldn't mind seeing them disapear so that we might get more competition in the PC games market.
but thats just me, so.... ;) [/B][/QUOTE]
There's also the argument of "best tool for the job." As Exile pointed out, there are games that just don't work on a PC, and games that just don't work on a console. Have you seen the PC version of FF7 or FF8? Ug! Hideous! And the Prince of Persia controls on the PC? Ewww! Conversely, there're a couple of flight sims for the PS2 that make me think "why did they bother?" Not to mention that I never got used to the whole control scheme for Halo on the XBox.
As for the market changes, that is mainly because consoles are more accessible for gaming to the general public: They are far cheaper while still being just as capable for the bulk of games. Developers also like them because they can spend more time tuning their games to work beautifully on the target console than dealing with hardware incompatibilities.
Ultimately it comes down to this: the PC and consoles are two very different beasts. You buy what you need to play the games you want to play. If you only like playing the sorts of games that work best on PC, fair enough. But don't discount consoles as being something that should disappear because of this.
also, it should be mentioned that PC gamers HATE consoles with a vengance due to all the crappy ports we get from what were intended to be PC games in the first place...
and console gamers just don't care about PC gamers. ;) (It's the truth! Go to a PC gameing forum and read all the post of people complaining about how poor consoles are!)
and I think the main difference between the graphics quality is just that PC Games can run at insane resolutions with AA/AF
and on a TV it's like 580x480 or something like that...low res on a 32inch screen as opposed to 1280x1024 on a 17inch screen = world of differance.
edit: And there is NO game that does not work on the PC. All it takes if a gamepad if the game needs it (Which some do) and you to take the time to re-map the controls. Which takes but a matter of moments. UNLESS it's a crappy console port and the devs were utter idiots and didn't add that functionality in. In which case, complain to the morons that ported it. But I've NEVER seen a console port that didn't let you remap the controls)
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]also, it should be mentioned that PC gamers HATE consoles with a vengance due to all the crappy ports we get from what were intended to be PC games in the first place...[/b][/quote]
We do? Someone should have told me earlier.
[quote][b]and console gamers just don't care about PC gamers. ;) (It's the truth! Go to a PC gameing forum and read all the post of people complaining about how poor consoles are!)[/B][/QUOTE]
We don't? Someone should have told me earlier.
So it is for these reasons you hate consoles? You live in a very black and white world, A#. Perhaps you should learn about shades of grey.
console graphics look crap, pc gamers hate console gamers and vica versa,.. boy, you really live in a different world than the rest of humanity do you? :eek:
everyone who thinks that his argumentation has fallen below even simmonds level, raise your hand :rolleyes:
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
there are no shades of grey, not in this matter, not in any others. It's either entirely right or entirely wrong. If it's grey, it's black.
And OK, maybe there are some exceptions to the PC gamers hate consoles. Myself, I don't like consoles. They are slowly killing the PC gaming market, and they are all, IMO, a sub-standard product. Limited mainly by TVs.
Consoles are a developers dream, but thats it. Last console I will ever own will be the Sega Genisis (Original) only other ones I owned were the Original Nintendo and Colecovision.
I consider myself an AVID PC gamer, If a game i want is on consoles and PC, i go for the PC version everytime(even POP, which with a pad isn't hard to control), but i still own all three of the current consoles. I know other people who are the same way, so i do not think that PC gamers in gerneal hate Consoles, however, i have met people who are the other way around. Love console games but can not stand playing on the PC(and yes, that even includes FPS games. Nutballs)
well, it was just an observation I've made from real life and forums...
I guess it comes from the crappy console ports we PC gamers get from time to time...
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
I consider myself a gamer. Platform doesn't enter into it.
A#: Ever heard the phrase "vocal minority"? Next time you might want to say "I've observed that..." rather than stating something as fact, particularly something as nebulous as "PC gamers hate console gamers".
well, until now I've only met....hrm....ok, I haven't met anyone that likes BOTH PCs and Consoles...it tends to be one or the other, not both. But after this thread, I may be wrong. ;)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]there are no shades of grey, not in this matter, not in any others. It's either entirely right or entirely wrong. If it's grey, it's black.[/B][/QUOTE]
Is that so?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]it should be mentioned that PC gamers HATE consoles with a vengance[/B][/QUOTE]
Some PC gamers hate consoles, others love them. Some don't have an opinion, and yet others have a slight fondness towards consoles. Shades of grey if there ever were any.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]console gamers just don't care about PC gamers[/B][/QUOTE]
Some do, some don't, some like orange juice and others like getting caught in the rain, yadda yadda yadda you get my point. Shades of grey.
those are people that like both. PC and console both = white.
for some, like me, PC = white console = Black
for others, vice versa, for others, both are black..
you can't "sorta" like something, you either do or you don't. Shades of grey simply don't exist.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
People who are ambivilent wouldn't like or hate consoles in particular, you know... There are almost certainly a lot of ambivilent people out there. Besides, you missed my point. You suggested that all PC gamers hate console gamers and all console gamers hate PC gamers, with no in-between. There is plenty of in-between, beginning with the most obvious group of people who like both and the other obvious group of people who have no preference. Those are the shades of grey I'm talking about, as opposed to the neat, dual-category world you seem to live in.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Biggles [/i]
[B]Conversely, there're a couple of flight sims for the PS2 that make me think "why did they bother?"[/B][/QUOTE]
Hey, that's an insult.
Don't ever compare shoot'em ups to flight sims!
Real "total" resolution of consoles (/TV) is in reality even smaller because TV does way too strong FSAA to whole image including textures and all. (that's one reason why direct ports from consoles look crap, PC monitor doesn't do that)
One thing I would like to see is how these praised and all powerfull consoles (that's how console industry& some players advertise those) would run FarCry... maybe they even would have to load new part of level only after every other tree.:D
I really need to buy myself a GameCube/Metroid Prime bundle
If it's out on all platforms, I'll go with the PC version simply becasue if I buy a new PC, I can still play my older games (usually). Nintendo 64 games, however, only run on a Nintendo 64. GameCubes don't run N64 games, etc.
Of course, an N64 and a GameCube will only set you back around $300 on their first days, or around $150 now with Metroid Prime or Mario Kart. And that's around $1,900-$2,050 less than the PC I'm planning on buying soon. Sure, the graphics aren't nearly as good, but I don't think PC game graphics are $2,000 better than a GC or Xbox.
And there are some console games that don't ever come out for the PC, and just have to be had. Like Zelda games. As long as Nintendo makes Zelda games for their consoles, and only their consoles, they will be worth having alongside a PC.
Re: I really need to buy myself a GameCube/Metroid Prime bundle
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MT [/i]
[B]If it's out on all platforms, I'll go with the PC version simply becasue if I buy a new PC, I can still play my older games (usually). Nintendo 64 games, however, only run on a Nintendo 64. GameCubes don't run N64 games, etc.[/B][/QUOTE]Well, that's because Nintendo is an evil on par with war, famine, and religious fundamentalism. All PlayStation games will run on the PS2.
Yeah, but that's like saying all diseases will run in the human body (PS/PS2); as opposed to different happy things making differnet people happy (N64/GC).
Comments
[B]Prince of Persia was out for PC as well... [/B][/QUOTE]Yes, as is Grand Theft Auto. I had meant to state that certain games just can't be translated for the PC; Prince of Persia is awful with a keyboard and mouse, as is Grand Theft Auto.
on the PC...pure ownage. I can avoid cop with 4 stars for hours! :D
and if your a diehard...get a gamepad. I have one, use it all the time for racing sims. :D
[B]A:@Biggles
next up: Sound. PC Games = stereo, 4.1, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1 shoot...whatever your soundcard can handle and your game supports.
console? Stereo. Unless I'm mistaken and they have surround sound? Meh...matters not.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, they do now support surround. Game cube as far as i know only supports Pro-Logic II tough. And although the ps2 has an optical out for Dobly Digital, very few games actually use Dobly Digital, preffering to stick with PLII. This is probably due to the fact that ps2 can only do dolby digital during movies and cutscenes etc., not in game. The only ps2 game i can think of that actually used this was Metal Gear Solid 2. However, the xbox does support dobly digital in game and the majority of Xbox games do support Dolby Digital IF you buy the advanced av pack which lets you use an optical audio cable.
So the surround support is there, but you are correct in daying that it is better on a PC.
The graphics arn't that far behind PC graphics. As I said, I've seen my PS2 do effects that a top of the line video card could only dream of, and FFX had real time facial expressions long before HL2. Consider that this is happening on a system with supposedly far less power than current PCs. They may be getting left behind at last, but it's taken a while.
The PS3 and other next generation consoles are going to be capable of, to put it bluntly, some fucking incredible stuff. The reason for this? The PS2, the Gamecube, the PS3, and other nextgen consoles are designed as a whole for one purpose: to draw pretty pictures really really fast. The entire architecture of the PS2 is built around graphics. PCs are limited in their gaming potential by archaic designs from the days when all anybody could think of to do with a PC was write letters, and the fact that they are general purpose machines and must be built as such.
The xbox supports HDTV so there isn't much limitation there.
So basically, it comes down to games. I only have my PS2 for console RPGs and the occasional other gem that comes along. If you don't play any games you need a console for, there's no reason to get one. But if you do, you shouldn't use other things like graphics capability and sound capability as an excuse. :) I certainly thought a few years ago that I'd never by a console, but then my gaming tastes suffered a dramatic shift.
FFX is close, but then you take into concideration that it's running at less then 640x480, and suddenly you relize why they can do a little more.
I mean, the XBox is arguable the most poweful of the current consoles, yet when you look at what they have to do to a game like Doom3 to get it to run on it = yikes.
so, yes, I can use graphics as an excuse. ;)
as for sound. Good to know.
as for control interface...shoot, theres hundereds of control pads for the PC, and you can even take a regular XBox/Gamecube/PS2 gamepad and modify it to work on the PC if you want. (Ok, thats a little harder, but it's doable).
So the control thing isn't an excuse for using a console at all.
Also, with the XBox: that's because technically it's a computer. Unlike the PS2 and Gamecube, it's not specifically designed for games. It's still a general purpose machine, just in a pretty box.
there are the few cream of the crop that look good, but for the most part?
nope...
overall, your right, graphics are a pretty stupid thing to argue consol vs PC over.
hows this for size:
Console = gaming only
PC = everything else + gaming
I see consoles as a waste of money, and frankly wouldn't mind seeing them disapear so that we might get more competition in the PC games market.
but thats just me, so.... ;)
[B]yes, but 99.99999999% of gamecube and PS2 games are far far FAR beneith the quality of PC games even a few years old...
there are the few cream of the crop that look good, but for the most part?
nope...
[/B][/QUOTE]Outright fallacy. The quality to be found in either variety of games is virtually identical; some good games, some bad games, tons of merely average games. I would contend that PC games and console games are not comparable in terms of quality, because the gaming experience is inherently different with a controller than it is with a keyboard and mouse. Games like [i]Prince of Persia[/i] and [i]Katamari Damacy[/i] (don't ever accuse console titles of lacking originality :D) simply don't work on PC, because the controls to not easily lend themselves to PC translation. Similarly, games like [i]Half-Life 2[/i] and [i]Far Cry[/i] would be dismal failures on any console.
Also, I say this with no statistical evidence, but it seems to me that the market for consoles and console games is growing much more quickly than that of PC games.
I'm never buying a console though, aside from portable ones like the PSP/Gameboy.
[b]hows this for size:
Console = gaming only
PC = everything else + gaming
I see consoles as a waste of money, and frankly wouldn't mind seeing them disapear so that we might get more competition in the PC games market.
but thats just me, so.... ;) [/B][/QUOTE]
There's also the argument of "best tool for the job." As Exile pointed out, there are games that just don't work on a PC, and games that just don't work on a console. Have you seen the PC version of FF7 or FF8? Ug! Hideous! And the Prince of Persia controls on the PC? Ewww! Conversely, there're a couple of flight sims for the PS2 that make me think "why did they bother?" Not to mention that I never got used to the whole control scheme for Halo on the XBox.
As for the market changes, that is mainly because consoles are more accessible for gaming to the general public: They are far cheaper while still being just as capable for the bulk of games. Developers also like them because they can spend more time tuning their games to work beautifully on the target console than dealing with hardware incompatibilities.
Ultimately it comes down to this: the PC and consoles are two very different beasts. You buy what you need to play the games you want to play. If you only like playing the sorts of games that work best on PC, fair enough. But don't discount consoles as being something that should disappear because of this.
and console gamers just don't care about PC gamers. ;) (It's the truth! Go to a PC gameing forum and read all the post of people complaining about how poor consoles are!)
and I think the main difference between the graphics quality is just that PC Games can run at insane resolutions with AA/AF
and on a TV it's like 580x480 or something like that...low res on a 32inch screen as opposed to 1280x1024 on a 17inch screen = world of differance.
edit: And there is NO game that does not work on the PC. All it takes if a gamepad if the game needs it (Which some do) and you to take the time to re-map the controls. Which takes but a matter of moments. UNLESS it's a crappy console port and the devs were utter idiots and didn't add that functionality in. In which case, complain to the morons that ported it. But I've NEVER seen a console port that didn't let you remap the controls)
[B]also, it should be mentioned that PC gamers HATE consoles with a vengance due to all the crappy ports we get from what were intended to be PC games in the first place...[/b][/quote]
We do? Someone should have told me earlier.
[quote][b]and console gamers just don't care about PC gamers. ;) (It's the truth! Go to a PC gameing forum and read all the post of people complaining about how poor consoles are!)[/B][/QUOTE]
We don't? Someone should have told me earlier.
So it is for these reasons you hate consoles? You live in a very black and white world, A#. Perhaps you should learn about shades of grey.
everyone who thinks that his argumentation has fallen below even simmonds level, raise your hand :rolleyes:
And OK, maybe there are some exceptions to the PC gamers hate consoles. Myself, I don't like consoles. They are slowly killing the PC gaming market, and they are all, IMO, a sub-standard product. Limited mainly by TVs.
Consoles are a developers dream, but thats it. Last console I will ever own will be the Sega Genisis (Original) only other ones I owned were the Original Nintendo and Colecovision.
I guess it comes from the crappy console ports we PC gamers get from time to time...
A#: Ever heard the phrase "vocal minority"? Next time you might want to say "I've observed that..." rather than stating something as fact, particularly something as nebulous as "PC gamers hate console gamers".
[B]there are no shades of grey, not in this matter, not in any others. It's either entirely right or entirely wrong. If it's grey, it's black.[/B][/QUOTE]
Is that so?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]it should be mentioned that PC gamers HATE consoles with a vengance[/B][/QUOTE]
Some PC gamers hate consoles, others love them. Some don't have an opinion, and yet others have a slight fondness towards consoles. Shades of grey if there ever were any.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]console gamers just don't care about PC gamers[/B][/QUOTE]
Some do, some don't, some like orange juice and others like getting caught in the rain, yadda yadda yadda you get my point. Shades of grey.
those are people that like both. PC and console both = white.
for some, like me, PC = white console = Black
for others, vice versa, for others, both are black..
you can't "sorta" like something, you either do or you don't. Shades of grey simply don't exist.
have to study anyway, is what I'm supposed to be doing. ;) :D
[B]Conversely, there're a couple of flight sims for the PS2 that make me think "why did they bother?"[/B][/QUOTE]
Hey, that's an insult.
Don't ever compare shoot'em ups to flight sims!
Real "total" resolution of consoles (/TV) is in reality even smaller because TV does way too strong FSAA to whole image including textures and all. (that's one reason why direct ports from consoles look crap, PC monitor doesn't do that)
One thing I would like to see is how these praised and all powerfull consoles (that's how console industry& some players advertise those) would run FarCry... maybe they even would have to load new part of level only after every other tree.:D
If it's out on all platforms, I'll go with the PC version simply becasue if I buy a new PC, I can still play my older games (usually). Nintendo 64 games, however, only run on a Nintendo 64. GameCubes don't run N64 games, etc.
Of course, an N64 and a GameCube will only set you back around $300 on their first days, or around $150 now with Metroid Prime or Mario Kart. And that's around $1,900-$2,050 less than the PC I'm planning on buying soon. Sure, the graphics aren't nearly as good, but I don't think PC game graphics are $2,000 better than a GC or Xbox.
And there are some console games that don't ever come out for the PC, and just have to be had. Like Zelda games. As long as Nintendo makes Zelda games for their consoles, and only their consoles, they will be worth having alongside a PC.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MT [/i]
[B]If it's out on all platforms, I'll go with the PC version simply becasue if I buy a new PC, I can still play my older games (usually). Nintendo 64 games, however, only run on a Nintendo 64. GameCubes don't run N64 games, etc.[/B][/QUOTE]Well, that's because Nintendo is an evil on par with war, famine, and religious fundamentalism. All PlayStation games will run on the PS2.
*thpppppppt*