Thanks for all the advice. It was more than I expected. And cyberpowersystem.com has more than I expected, so now I need more advice. Hopefully I'm almost done.
It turns out that I can, in fact, get PCIe cards with AMD through Cyberpowersystem.com. It's not through the normal AMD configurator, though, but the nVidia SLI option ([url]http://www.cyberpowersystem.com/highendsystem/ultrasli.asp?v=d[/url]). I'm guessing just having one won't be a problem; but correct me if I'm wrong.
Also, is the 1 MB L2 cache on the 4000+ really that big a deal? Or will it be in the near future? That 1 MB L2 cache is really the only reason it's looking attractive to me. Yeah, I know it's more powerful than all the other Athlons besides the FX-55, but if I understand the benchmarks I've read about, it's not dramatically better.
Anyway, my mom has been asking me when I'm finally going to be getting a new PC, so here's what I have now. Let me know if I'm doing something wrong:
CoolerMaster TAC-T01-E1C Wave Master Aluminum 420W Case (SILVER)
ULTRA X-Connect 500W ATX PS w/2 80mm Fans
(939-pin) AMD ATHLON64 4000+ Processor
(939-pin) ASUS nForce4 SLI Chipset Mainboard
1GB (512MBx2) PC3200 DDR400 Memory (Corsair_XMS)
Western Digital 200GB 7200RPM ATA 100 8MB Special Editon
NVIDIA GeForce 6600 GT 128MB 16X PCI EXPRESS VIDEO CARD
PIONEER DVR-108 DUAL FORMAT 16X DVD±R/±RW + CD-R/RW DRIVE DUAL LAYER (SILVER)
Creative Labs SB Audigy-2 ZS 7.1
Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional w/ Service Pack 2
Price: $2414.00
I want this to survive well into 2006 and still be considered fast, but here are some money saving options I have:
-$486 to downgrade CPU to 3500+
-$316 to downgrade CPU to 3500+ and add second GeForce 6600 GT 128
-$261 to downgrade CPU to 3500+ and upgrade to GeForce 6800 GT 256 MB
Besides the L2 cache size, the only differences I know of between the two CPUs is that the 4000+ has a 0.2 GHz edge, and is a Clawhammer instead of a Newcastle.
And here are some miscellaneous options I'd consider:
+86 to replace hard drive with two Hitachi 160GB 7200RPM Serial ATA 150 8MB Cache (+120 GB over single Western Digital hard drive.)
-$23 to replace optical drive with Samsung TS-H522B 16X DVD±R/±RW + CD-R/RW DRIVE DUAL LAYER
-$16 to cut 40 GB from hard drive to the "recommended" Hitachi 160GB 7200RPM Serial ATA 150 8MB Cache
If it's important, I MIGHT use Maya on this computer, depending on how my scene design and animation classes go. I also don't plan on doing any major upgrading until around 2006 unless TES: Oblivion ([url]http://www.morrowind.com/art/obliv_screenshots_01.htm[/url]) is unbearably choppy (or low settings make it unbearably foggy), or I really get into 3d stuff and/or video editing.
If I install my copy of Office XP onto this new computer, and keep it on my old computer, will that be OK? One computer will be at my dorm, the other at home for use over the weekends. They wouldn't be in use at the same time.
One Finnish PC magazine had small article about 4000+ model.
I just didn't remember in which number it was (or more exactly, where I have that number) so I had to download article from their website.
This processor model is pretty much just result of marketing department.
Only difference between 3800 and 4000 models is later's 1 MB L2.
But it looks like 512 kB is enough for this core because in in games difference was "full" zero.
In application difference is even as high as 2%.
Games used in testing were Doom III and FarCry.
Application tests was done with Content Creation and Business Winstone 2004.
Anyone know anything about MonarchComputer? I just found they have the same motherboard as Cyberpowersystem, but it says "System Build Only." I was able to add it to my cart, though.
Anyway, I tried their system build, which had a lot more options but was poorly designed.
For $2,088.88, I can get the following system:
Lian-Li PC 6070A Aluminum Ultra Quiet (no PS)
Ultra X-Connect ULT31558 ATX 12V 500W
Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe nForce4
AMD Athlon 64 3500+ 512K 90nm (939)
Thermaltake A1772 AMD
1 GB RAM (512x2) OCZ DDR PC3200 400MHz ELS Revision 2
Western Digital 74 GB SATA 10K Raptor
Plextor PX-712A DVD±R/RW
Creative Labs Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS Gamer
XFX GeForce 6600 GT 128 MB DDR3/PCI-E
Windows XP Pro with Service Pack 1
It also comes with the following games:
Far Cry
Half Life 2
Star Wars® Jedi Knight®: Jedi Academy
Halo Combat Evolved
Tomb Raider: The Angel of Darkness
Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six® 3: Raven Shield
Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell
(With Cyberpowersystem, I'd get Half Life 2 and Battlefield 1942)
If I'm not mistaken, that's a pretty good deal, better than Cyberpowersystem. It's only a 5.1 sound card, but that's all I need. And it comes with 5 of the games I mentioned. The 6600 GT 128 is as high as it goes for nVidia cards, but that's fine with me. The build fee is $49.00, so that isn't too bad. At least, not to me.
The only problems I have with it are the lack of the Coolermaster Stacker option, and not having XP Pro with Service Pack 2. They have XP Home with service pack 2, though, which would save me $67.
Here are some other options I'd consider if I had a good reason:
-$26
Not getting Revision 2 RAM
-$67 Replace Optical Drive
NEC ND-3500A/GNS 16X Dual Layer DVD±RW
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MT [/i]
[B]Creative Labs Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS Gamer
...
It's only a 5.1 sound card, but that's all I need.[/B][/QUOTE]All different Audigy 2 ZS "editions" are 7.1 cards.
HD is really from fastest end but it's pretty small... IMO. (I have 80, 120 and 200 GB HDs in my PC)
MT, you're going to want the 90nm processor, trust me. Its got a smaller die, and runs cooler overall.
That being said, go for the dual layer burner. The dual layer media is rediculously expensive [b]now[/b] but later they're going to be a dime a dozen, and the ability to do a 1:1 copy of a store-bought DVD will kick ass.
Again, thanks for all your help so far. Unfortunately for me, I won't be ordering my new computer soon after all, because of all the other expenses that have just been thrown at me. But I'm getting help with all that so the delay should be a matter of days.
I guess that gives me more time to take out what I don't really need.
I expect this computer to run World of Warcraft (now), TES 4: Oblivion (whenever it's out), and video editing software (Q3 2006). (It's gonna do more than that, but those seemed like the best examples of the kinds of things I want it to be capable of handling decently.)
[b]RAM Type[/b]
I found some review of OCZ RAM. It seems very, very nice. But I don't plan on overclocking anything; and supposedly the CPU will be a bottleneck. I think overclocking the CPU is supposed to help with that; but again, no overclocking for me. I value piece of mind over 4-5 more frames per second.
At the same time; OCZ RAM isn't that much more expensive. And it is better. The money I save wouldn't really help me justify a differen't upgrade in its place. At least, I don't think so.
So will I notice it if I downgrade to some cheaper but still non-budget Corsair RAM? I don't think I will, but if I knew enough about computers to know then I wouldn't have started a thread asking for advice.
[b]Optical Drive[/b]
Regarding the Optical Drive, I've just now realized that Dual Layer does not mean being able to read and write both + and - formats (thanks Vert.). So those drives are becoming more attractive to me. The Plextor looks really good, but the Dual Layer drives seem to be worth considering. The NEC I brought up before seems to be the fastest one available, but it has no buffer under run free technology. All the other ones do. If not the Plextor or NEC, I'd go with the Samsung because of that (and it reads DL's faster).
I have a really crappy computer (that has the special ability to run Deus Ex: Invisible War bizzarely smoothly), and I can't remember ever having to deal with a "buffer under run error." So is this something I should even be concerned about with a much, much faster computer? Concerned enough to sacrifice read/write speeds (of written CDs/DVDs) for buffer under run free technology?
[b]Case[/b]
I'm starting to get really concerned about my current selection (Lian-Li PC 6070A Aluminum Ultra Quiet) not being as "breathable" as the other options available. It has three fans, but no intake that I can identify. It's pretty much solid all around except for the back.
The 1/8" thick sound insulating foam on the side panels and top, and the fact that it's supposed to be a really quiet case make it very attractive, though, especially since my current computer whirrs like a mofo. I can hear it right now through my headphones. Of course, it's pretty old and sitting about a foot and a half away from my head.
If they had a Coolermaster Stacker, this would be so much easier...
Current:
Lian-Li 6070A Ultra Quiet
210x460x525mm(W,H,D)
[url]http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=100634[/url]
Three 80mm fans and two USB ports in the front. Maximum PC says there's low airflow, making it a bad choice for overclockers. But I don't plan on doing that.
+$22
Lian-Li PC-V1100 Aluminum Quiet Tower
210x490x550mm(W,H,D)
[url]http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=100071[/url]
It's pretty much the same thing as far as I can tell, but with an added fire wire port in the front and only two fans. But they're bigger fans -- 120mm.
+$5
Lian-Li PC-V1000 Aluminum Ultra Quiet
210x450x490mm(W,H,D)
[url]http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=100073[/url]
For a mere $5 more I can get something that has a whole bunch of holes in the front, two 120mm ball bearning fans, and doesn't have a door. Plus, it has a firewire port in the front along with 2 USB ports. The wheels are likely going to irritate me, though, even with breaks, especially if I put it on my desktop at my dorm, which I'm afraid I'll most likely have to do.
Tom's Hardware Guide ([url]http://www6.tomshardware.com/howto/20040607/miditower-32.html[/url]) seems to like it, though they say it doesn't have dust filters (I've never had those myself) or a power on plug, and you'll need long IDE cables. I'm going to assume that's something the Monarchpc guys have to worry about, and not me. They describe the insides as "innovative," though.
-$76
Lian Li PC-60
210x450x492mm(W,H,D)
[url]http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=100605[/url]
4 80 mm fans. 2 in the front with a filter, and one on the top and back each. That doesn't sound like something that would be audibly tolerable, even with ball bearing fans. But then, what do I know. There's no door, which is a plus to me. Less to open and close. It's big, but also very plain looking and $76 cheaper. Yay. If only there was a firewire port in the front.
Also, how do I widen the window I type into? For some reason it has gotten really thin and there's no option in the User CP that I can find to change it to what it used to be.
Random ChaosActually Carefully-selected Order in disguise
A couple things:
a. 120mm fans are much quieter then 80mm or 90mm fans in general, yet they pull much more air.
b. You definately need a front vent in any case design, otherwise you don't have any air flow through the case. You HDs need air flow to keep them cool. Your mobo needs air flow to keep it cool. And more importantly you don't want the just-exhausted air to be pulled back in through a rear intake vent. While most cases have small rear intakes, you do not want the rear vent to be the primary intake for the case - that you want either on the side or more preferably on the front, otherwise you are simply recirculating hot air out the back and right back in over the mobo and PCI slots.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MT [/i]
[B]
I have a really crappy computer (that has the special ability to run Deus Ex: Invisible War bizzarely smoothly), and I can't remember ever having to deal with a "buffer under run error."
So is this something I should even be concerned about with a much, much faster computer? Concerned enough to sacrifice read/write speeds (of written CDs/DVDs) for buffer under run free technology?
[/B][/QUOTE]
It is my understanding that Buffer Under Run is only a problem during burning sessions, where the computer cannot feed the CD/DVD writer enough info fast enough.
Once the disk is made, that shouldn't even be an issue at playback.
Unless I'm thinking of something else...
BTW, I have a Plextor 12/10/32A CDRW drive that works great, so I wouldn't hesitate to recomend the brand to you.
;)
Random ChaosActually Carefully-selected Order in disguise
As for buffer underrun, just make sure your software has protection against it built in. Turns out that almost no drives out these days don't have problems with underruns...the drives burn faster then the ATA and SATA busses run!
For a case I would recommend something which has USBs in front... it's not fun to put cables to back of .
And for Cabl3 Guy... At least I wouldn't use any HD without cooling.
And if you have two of them its's necessary... even when there's height of one HD between them.
K any recommendations on a good fan? I can never figure out which jumpers to put the fan in either.
Random ChaosActually Carefully-selected Order in disguise
No, but you will want to make sure that there is air flow over the drive. If your drive will be heavy access and use, then you might want a fan. You can always add one if you find your drive hot to the touch.
I usually leave the case open, it has plenty of air flow.
Random ChaosActually Carefully-selected Order in disguise
Actually, leaving the case open reduces fan-driven airflow over components that do not have their own fans. It does increase passive cooling, but many components can not stay cool enough on passive cooling alone. By leaving the case open you have more circulation of hot exhuast air back into the case. While you will have a convective system taking the hot air away slowly, this will not be sufficiently fast enough to keep even all active cooling systems working. The idea is that the front of the case is far enough from the rear of the case that the convective effect over that distance would create a sufficient themocline such that the intake air is approximately room temperature. By leaving the side open the intake air is much higher then room temperature unless you have a large exterior fan bring room-temperature air to the side of the case.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MT [/i]
[B][b]RAM Type[/b]
I found some review of OCZ RAM. It seems very, very nice. But I don't plan on overclocking anything; and supposedly the CPU will be a bottleneck. I think overclocking the CPU is supposed to help with that; but again, no overclocking for me. I value piece of mind over 4-5 more frames per second.
At the same time; OCZ RAM isn't that much more expensive. And it is better. The money I save wouldn't really help me justify a differen't upgrade in its place. At least, I don't think so.
So will I notice it if I downgrade to some cheaper but still non-budget Corsair RAM? I don't think I will, but if I knew enough about computers to know then I wouldn't have started a thread asking for advice.[/b][/quote]
Going for the OCZ is highly recommended if you can. Particularly if you plan on doing a ton of rendering since the faster timing will boost your rendering power just a tad. (Just remember to install the RAM in a configuration that would allow the board to run the sticks in "Dual Channel" mode. Read the manual for more info.)
If you were just going to do some light gaming, or just general websurfing, I wouldn't even go for the OCZ at all. Anything other than heavy use, and you're just blowing money on a more expensive part that isn't doing you any good.
[quote][b]Optical Drive[/b]
Regarding the Optical Drive, I've just now realized that Dual Layer does not mean being able to read and write both + and - formats (thanks Vert.).[/quote]
Ok, lets stop right there. You obviously haven't done enough research on the matter and are confusing the labels "Dual Format" and "Dual Layer".
See, when DVD burners first came out, we only had three real choices. DVD+ (R or RW), DVD- (R or RW), and DVD-RAM. I'm not even touching DVD-RAM since it was an utter failure (just like DivX years ago. Again, this is NOT to be confused with the video codec of the same name.) First generation burners only had the capability to write to one standard only (which was at the disgression of the manufacturer whether or not to choose to support minus or plus media. This may not mean jack shit to you, but keep in mind that your store-bought DVDs typically make use of two layers on the same disk in order to double storage capacity. Now, the MPAA made a stink about the piracy issue (they did the same thing over the VCR). In order to appease them, manufacturers made DVD writable media one layer or the other. That limits you to 4.7GB of available storage (dual layer media is twice that). However, it wasn't long until [b]dual format[/b] burners came out, which could not only read, but write to both DVD plus and minus media. However, those burners cannot burn to [b]dual layer[/b] media. Again, this is due to the bitching by the MPAA over the piracy issue. [b]Dual layer[/b] burners (which CAN write to dual layer media, as well as plus and minus media) are a more recent release since the MPAA's arguements have gone the way of the VCR in validity.
[quote][b]I have a really crappy computer (that has the special ability to run Deus Ex: Invisible War bizzarely smoothly), and I can't remember ever having to deal with a "buffer under run error." So is this something I should even be concerned about with a much, much faster computer? Concerned enough to sacrifice read/write speeds (of written CDs/DVDs) for buffer under run free technology?[/b][/quote]
Every burner currently out there has some sort of buffer underrun (sometimes referred to as buffer overrun as well) protection. What the deal with that is this:
Early burners had no such protection, so when you ran programs while you were burning a CD, you ran the risk of burning a coaster (or burning a CD riddled with errors). It wasn't a few years until burners came out with protection against that sort of thing. See, when the buffer empties while a burn is in progress, the burner shuts off the laser until the buffer is full again. This [b]greatly[/b] reduces the chance of burning a coaster.
[quote][b]Also, how do I widen the window I type into? For some reason it has gotten really thin and there's no option in the User CP that I can find to change it to what it used to be. [/B][/QUOTE]
As for your case, you'll definitely want a door of some kind. Trust me, ease of access should be your highest priority, then airflow. When you take into consideration of airflow, keep in mind that more fans equals more noise. Shoot for 120mm fans if at all possible. They spin at a lower RPM, but move close to three times the air volume per minute than your typical 80mm fan.
As for the post window, you can blame Kier Darby on that. At the time, He was [b]very[/b] pro IE and didn't really test vbulletin in anything else, and from what I gather used a fair bit if proprietary code. He was under the mindset that if it worked in IE, it was fine. Since Mozilla and FireFox follow strictly to W3C specs, it renders pages completely different and is very unforgiving to poor coding techniques. This was resolved in version 3 of the bulletin board software.
Random ChaosActually Carefully-selected Order in disguise
Never realized the narrow window wasn't normal - I've virtually never have used IE...and thus never vB using IE. So you are saying that wide purple area to the right of the textbox isn't there on IE?
Im often amazed at how many people think that leaving the side of their case open is effecient cooling. I myself go out to Home Depot and buy a thin sheed of Lexan and place it over a new computer side opening, and run a make-shift air test.
Once I have all the fans in place, I put my see through cover on and place a lit cigar (whatever produces smoke works, I just like the smell too) in front of my air intake. I watch the smoke and look for dead air. Meaning a place inside my case that does not have positive air flow. This ensures that the air moving through my machine stays cool and you dont get warm/hot patches around destroying my components.
I know some people even have plexiglass side covers all together, but I keep my entire case surrounded in anodized aluminium for the best possible heat dissapation.
but then, keep in mind, Im a damn freak when it comes to cooling. I use only Thermaltake fans (regardless of the noise they create) because they move air consistantly and quickly. When I fix my domain registrar and have a website I can host stuff on again, Ill post a soundbyte of what my computer sounds like at idle. shes loud.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by SpiritOne [/i]
[B]Once I have all the fans in place, I put my see through cover on and place a lit cigar (whatever produces smoke works, I just like the smell too) in front of my air intake. I watch the smoke and look for dead air. Meaning a place inside my case that does not have positive air flow. This ensures that the air moving through my machine stays cool and you dont get warm/hot patches around destroying my components.[/b][/quote]
Just be careful about doing that. You're slowly introducing tar to the components, and let me tell you that having your computer slowly turn a shade of yellow is not a good thing.
I actually had to clean out a computer owned by a chain smoker. I won't go into the details, but lets just say it was NOT pretty on the inside. You're better off using canned fog, or burning something like paper (outside your home obviously). At the most, that'd leave a little soot which could be cleaned out with compressed air.
[quote][b]I know some people even have plexiglass side covers all together, but I keep my entire case surrounded in anodized aluminium for the best possible heat dissapation.[/b][/quote]
heh, I've seen cases made entirely out of lucite. I pity the poor fool that buys one. Talk about RF interference city...
[quote][b]but then, keep in mind, Im a damn freak when it comes to cooling. I use only Thermaltake fans (regardless of the noise they create) because they move air consistantly and quickly. When I fix my domain registrar and have a website I can host stuff on again, Ill post a soundbyte of what my computer sounds like at idle. shes loud. [/B][/QUOTE]
heheh, I'm the same way. Thats why I got a Fortron power supply with a 120mm fan in it. Before I was constantly running up in the mid 40's on my CPU at idle. Now I'm idling at around 38C.
Random ChaosActually Carefully-selected Order in disguise
Well, I don't skimp on fans. I prefer 120mms, but my current case has 80mm and 90mm fans only. Actually...I couldn't find a case that had 120s when I was looking for my current case that also had enough drive bays.
Though I try to keep noise low. Bought high CFM low dB fans as much as I could, then knock them mostly down to about 90% RPMs to drop the noise without much CFM drop comparitively. My main rear exhaust fans are 100% though.
I just don't understand why they put an ultrabright blue LED for the power light in it though...I put duct tape over the end of the plastic light guide and can still see it lit! Do they think you need to have a spot light on the wall in your bedroom for some reason?
Otherwise, no bright lights in my case...not even purple ones :)
Sometime I should check for negative air flow...but it seems to keep fairly good air flow just looking at it.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Random Chaos [/i]
[B]I just don't understand why they put an ultrabright blue LED for the power light in it though...I put duct tape over the end of the plastic light guide and can still see it lit! Do they think you need to have a spot light on the wall in your bedroom for some reason?[/B][/QUOTE]Just wait when those damned fashion designers get their hands to PCs, then they will become anything else than practical.
I agree that that manufacturer's should make cases with 120mm fans instead of small "turbines", that's one thing they seem to be uncapable to learn.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by E.T [/i]
[B]I agree that that manufacturer's should make cases with 120mm fans instead of small "turbines", that's one thing they seem to be uncapable to learn. [/B][/QUOTE]
Shit, I've yet to see one with decent airflow. They've yet to learn that negative pressure is not what you want when it comes to keeping components cool.
Alright, unless something goes horribly wrong, or if my configuration is awful, I'll finally be ordering my new PC as soon as tomorrow. Feel free to warn me about any screw ups or worthy upgrades to consider.
$2080.88
Lian-Li PC-V1000 Aluminum Ultra Quiet (no PS)
Ultra X-Connect ULT31558 ATX 12V 500W
Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe nForce4
AMD Athlon 64 3500+ 512K 90nm (939)
Thermaltake A1772 AMD
1 GB RAM (512x2) Corsair Twin1024-3200C2PT
NEC ND-3500A/GNS 16X Dual Layer DVD±RW (Silver)
SATA Hitachi 160 GB 7200 RPM w/8MB cache
Creative Labs Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS Gamer
Two XFX GeForce 6600 GT 128 MB DDR3/PCI-Es in SLI
Windows XP Pro with Service Pack 2 (yay)
Now the questions.
For the same price, I can get a Western Digital hard drive that holds 40 GB more than the one I have in my current configuration with the Hitachi. Is the Hitachi that much better? Or am I falling for the "expansive=better" marketing trick?
On the Raptor drives:
How noticable is a 3,200 RPM difference in a hard drive? Is it worth the lower capacity and higher cost, and having to burn a lot of digital pictures onto DVD-Rs? (I have a spindle of 100 I bought for $20.)
[url]http://www.corsairmicro.com/corsair/products/specs/twinx1024-3200ll.pdf[/url]
For my choice of RAM, I had affodable upgradibility in mind. And by that, I mean I figured it would be easy to find that kind of Corsair RAM for a decent price if I ever needed it. (To me, a really expensive computer looks a lot different than a really expensive upgrade.) Am I wrong, or, have I chosen terrible RAM?
Considering [URL=http://www.hcgamer.hu/gamer/index.php?p=5&c=11247&hw=1&tores=1]this[/URL] about "TES: Oblivion"
[quote]It's a new piece of technology we have been working on for some time, taking in everything we learned in our past games. It's pixel-shader heavy. We really got excited by doing the water effects in Morrowind, so now we're taking that kind of care to every surface - whether it be metal, wood, stone, blood, skin, you name it. We also work in several middleware packages like Havok and Gamebryo. The detail level is amazing, as you can see from the screenshots.
In particular we're using normal maps (for lighting), diffuse maps (for color), specular maps (for shininess), and parallax maps (for geometry detail). There's also specific shaders for skin, hair, and many others. Parallax mapping is a new and exciting technique that's similar to displacement mapping, but is much friendlier to the video cards.[/quote]
Would I be making a mistake if I went with two 6600 GTs and didn't upgrade later? Since SLI gives each card 8x, I figured the whole "wait for cards to take advantage of PCIe" thing wouldn't matter much. And if I'm not mistaken, the GT isn't some budget series. Am I wrong?
I know I ask about this one a lot, but I have trouble believing anything I build today can run that game decently, with its crazy textures and "Radiant AI."
Comments
It turns out that I can, in fact, get PCIe cards with AMD through Cyberpowersystem.com. It's not through the normal AMD configurator, though, but the nVidia SLI option ([url]http://www.cyberpowersystem.com/highendsystem/ultrasli.asp?v=d[/url]). I'm guessing just having one won't be a problem; but correct me if I'm wrong.
Also, is the 1 MB L2 cache on the 4000+ really that big a deal? Or will it be in the near future? That 1 MB L2 cache is really the only reason it's looking attractive to me. Yeah, I know it's more powerful than all the other Athlons besides the FX-55, but if I understand the benchmarks I've read about, it's not dramatically better.
Anyway, my mom has been asking me when I'm finally going to be getting a new PC, so here's what I have now. Let me know if I'm doing something wrong:
CoolerMaster TAC-T01-E1C Wave Master Aluminum 420W Case (SILVER)
ULTRA X-Connect 500W ATX PS w/2 80mm Fans
(939-pin) AMD ATHLON64 4000+ Processor
(939-pin) ASUS nForce4 SLI Chipset Mainboard
1GB (512MBx2) PC3200 DDR400 Memory (Corsair_XMS)
Western Digital 200GB 7200RPM ATA 100 8MB Special Editon
NVIDIA GeForce 6600 GT 128MB 16X PCI EXPRESS VIDEO CARD
PIONEER DVR-108 DUAL FORMAT 16X DVD±R/±RW + CD-R/RW DRIVE DUAL LAYER (SILVER)
Creative Labs SB Audigy-2 ZS 7.1
Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional w/ Service Pack 2
Price: $2414.00
I want this to survive well into 2006 and still be considered fast, but here are some money saving options I have:
-$486 to downgrade CPU to 3500+
-$316 to downgrade CPU to 3500+ and add second GeForce 6600 GT 128
-$261 to downgrade CPU to 3500+ and upgrade to GeForce 6800 GT 256 MB
Besides the L2 cache size, the only differences I know of between the two CPUs is that the 4000+ has a 0.2 GHz edge, and is a Clawhammer instead of a Newcastle.
And here are some miscellaneous options I'd consider:
+86 to replace hard drive with two Hitachi 160GB 7200RPM Serial ATA 150 8MB Cache (+120 GB over single Western Digital hard drive.)
-$23 to replace optical drive with Samsung TS-H522B 16X DVD±R/±RW + CD-R/RW DRIVE DUAL LAYER
-$16 to cut 40 GB from hard drive to the "recommended" Hitachi 160GB 7200RPM Serial ATA 150 8MB Cache
If it's important, I MIGHT use Maya on this computer, depending on how my scene design and animation classes go. I also don't plan on doing any major upgrading until around 2006 unless TES: Oblivion ([url]http://www.morrowind.com/art/obliv_screenshots_01.htm[/url]) is unbearably choppy (or low settings make it unbearably foggy), or I really get into 3d stuff and/or video editing.
If I install my copy of Office XP onto this new computer, and keep it on my old computer, will that be OK? One computer will be at my dorm, the other at home for use over the weekends. They wouldn't be in use at the same time.
I could be wrong...
:)
Run Linux! :p
I just didn't remember in which number it was (or more exactly, where I have that number) so I had to download article from their website.
This processor model is pretty much just result of marketing department.
Only difference between 3800 and 4000 models is later's 1 MB L2.
But it looks like 512 kB is enough for this core because in in games difference was "full" zero.
In application difference is even as high as 2%.
Games used in testing were Doom III and FarCry.
Application tests was done with Content Creation and Business Winstone 2004.
Anyone know anything about MonarchComputer? I just found they have the same motherboard as Cyberpowersystem, but it says "System Build Only." I was able to add it to my cart, though.
Anyway, I tried their system build, which had a lot more options but was poorly designed.
For $2,088.88, I can get the following system:
Lian-Li PC 6070A Aluminum Ultra Quiet (no PS)
Ultra X-Connect ULT31558 ATX 12V 500W
Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe nForce4
AMD Athlon 64 3500+ 512K 90nm (939)
Thermaltake A1772 AMD
1 GB RAM (512x2) OCZ DDR PC3200 400MHz ELS Revision 2
Western Digital 74 GB SATA 10K Raptor
Plextor PX-712A DVD±R/RW
Creative Labs Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS Gamer
XFX GeForce 6600 GT 128 MB DDR3/PCI-E
Windows XP Pro with Service Pack 1
It also comes with the following games:
Far Cry
Half Life 2
Star Wars® Jedi Knight®: Jedi Academy
Halo Combat Evolved
Tomb Raider: The Angel of Darkness
Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six® 3: Raven Shield
Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell
(With Cyberpowersystem, I'd get Half Life 2 and Battlefield 1942)
If I'm not mistaken, that's a pretty good deal, better than Cyberpowersystem. It's only a 5.1 sound card, but that's all I need. And it comes with 5 of the games I mentioned. The 6600 GT 128 is as high as it goes for nVidia cards, but that's fine with me. The build fee is $49.00, so that isn't too bad. At least, not to me.
The only problems I have with it are the lack of the Coolermaster Stacker option, and not having XP Pro with Service Pack 2. They have XP Home with service pack 2, though, which would save me $67.
Here are some other options I'd consider if I had a good reason:
-$26
Not getting Revision 2 RAM
-$67 Replace Optical Drive
NEC ND-3500A/GNS 16X Dual Layer DVD±RW
+$10 Replace Optical Drive
Pioneer DVR-108 16x4x16-DVD-/+RW/40x24x32-CD-RW
(Plextor: 4X-DVD+-RW/12X-DVD+R/16X-DVD/48X24X48-CD-RW)
-$15 Replace CPU:
AMD Athlon 64 3500+ 512K (939)
(I have no idea what the "90nm" difference is.)
-$76 Replace Case
Lian-Li PC-60 Aluminum Case
-$50 Replace HD:
Hitachi Deskstar 7K250 160 GB 7200 RPM SATA
or
Western Digital 200GB SATA 8MB Cache 7200RPM
+$125 Additional HD:
Hitachi Deskstar 7K250 160 GB 7200 RPM SATA
or
Western Digital 200GB SATA 8MB Cache 7200RPM
+$14 ??
Shin-Etsu Thermal Grease (Cools CPU Better)
[B]Creative Labs Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS Gamer
...
It's only a 5.1 sound card, but that's all I need.[/B][/QUOTE]All different Audigy 2 ZS "editions" are 7.1 cards.
HD is really from fastest end but it's pretty small... IMO. (I have 80, 120 and 200 GB HDs in my PC)
That being said, go for the dual layer burner. The dual layer media is rediculously expensive [b]now[/b] but later they're going to be a dime a dozen, and the ability to do a 1:1 copy of a store-bought DVD will kick ass.
I guess that gives me more time to take out what I don't really need.
I expect this computer to run World of Warcraft (now), TES 4: Oblivion (whenever it's out), and video editing software (Q3 2006). (It's gonna do more than that, but those seemed like the best examples of the kinds of things I want it to be capable of handling decently.)
[b]RAM Type[/b]
I found some review of OCZ RAM. It seems very, very nice. But I don't plan on overclocking anything; and supposedly the CPU will be a bottleneck. I think overclocking the CPU is supposed to help with that; but again, no overclocking for me. I value piece of mind over 4-5 more frames per second.
At the same time; OCZ RAM isn't that much more expensive. And it is better. The money I save wouldn't really help me justify a differen't upgrade in its place. At least, I don't think so.
So will I notice it if I downgrade to some cheaper but still non-budget Corsair RAM? I don't think I will, but if I knew enough about computers to know then I wouldn't have started a thread asking for advice.
[b]Optical Drive[/b]
Regarding the Optical Drive, I've just now realized that Dual Layer does not mean being able to read and write both + and - formats (thanks Vert.). So those drives are becoming more attractive to me. The Plextor looks really good, but the Dual Layer drives seem to be worth considering. The NEC I brought up before seems to be the fastest one available, but it has no buffer under run free technology. All the other ones do. If not the Plextor or NEC, I'd go with the Samsung because of that (and it reads DL's faster).
Plextor
[url]http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=160009[/url]
NEC
[url]http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=160947[/url]
Samsung
[url]http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=160942[/url]
I have a really crappy computer (that has the special ability to run Deus Ex: Invisible War bizzarely smoothly), and I can't remember ever having to deal with a "buffer under run error." So is this something I should even be concerned about with a much, much faster computer? Concerned enough to sacrifice read/write speeds (of written CDs/DVDs) for buffer under run free technology?
[b]Case[/b]
I'm starting to get really concerned about my current selection (Lian-Li PC 6070A Aluminum Ultra Quiet) not being as "breathable" as the other options available. It has three fans, but no intake that I can identify. It's pretty much solid all around except for the back.
The 1/8" thick sound insulating foam on the side panels and top, and the fact that it's supposed to be a really quiet case make it very attractive, though, especially since my current computer whirrs like a mofo. I can hear it right now through my headphones. Of course, it's pretty old and sitting about a foot and a half away from my head.
If they had a Coolermaster Stacker, this would be so much easier...
Current:
Lian-Li 6070A Ultra Quiet
210x460x525mm(W,H,D)
[url]http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=100634[/url]
Three 80mm fans and two USB ports in the front. Maximum PC says there's low airflow, making it a bad choice for overclockers. But I don't plan on doing that.
+$22
Lian-Li PC-V1100 Aluminum Quiet Tower
210x490x550mm(W,H,D)
[url]http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=100071[/url]
It's pretty much the same thing as far as I can tell, but with an added fire wire port in the front and only two fans. But they're bigger fans -- 120mm.
+$5
Lian-Li PC-V1000 Aluminum Ultra Quiet
210x450x490mm(W,H,D)
[url]http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=100073[/url]
For a mere $5 more I can get something that has a whole bunch of holes in the front, two 120mm ball bearning fans, and doesn't have a door. Plus, it has a firewire port in the front along with 2 USB ports. The wheels are likely going to irritate me, though, even with breaks, especially if I put it on my desktop at my dorm, which I'm afraid I'll most likely have to do.
Tom's Hardware Guide ([url]http://www6.tomshardware.com/howto/20040607/miditower-32.html[/url]) seems to like it, though they say it doesn't have dust filters (I've never had those myself) or a power on plug, and you'll need long IDE cables. I'm going to assume that's something the Monarchpc guys have to worry about, and not me. They describe the insides as "innovative," though.
-$76
Lian Li PC-60
210x450x492mm(W,H,D)
[url]http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=100605[/url]
4 80 mm fans. 2 in the front with a filter, and one on the top and back each. That doesn't sound like something that would be audibly tolerable, even with ball bearing fans. But then, what do I know. There's no door, which is a plus to me. Less to open and close. It's big, but also very plain looking and $76 cheaper. Yay. If only there was a firewire port in the front.
Also, how do I widen the window I type into? For some reason it has gotten really thin and there's no option in the User CP that I can find to change it to what it used to be.
a. 120mm fans are much quieter then 80mm or 90mm fans in general, yet they pull much more air.
b. You definately need a front vent in any case design, otherwise you don't have any air flow through the case. You HDs need air flow to keep them cool. Your mobo needs air flow to keep it cool. And more importantly you don't want the just-exhausted air to be pulled back in through a rear intake vent. While most cases have small rear intakes, you do not want the rear vent to be the primary intake for the case - that you want either on the side or more preferably on the front, otherwise you are simply recirculating hot air out the back and right back in over the mobo and PCI slots.
--RC
[B]
I have a really crappy computer (that has the special ability to run Deus Ex: Invisible War bizzarely smoothly), and I can't remember ever having to deal with a "buffer under run error."
So is this something I should even be concerned about with a much, much faster computer? Concerned enough to sacrifice read/write speeds (of written CDs/DVDs) for buffer under run free technology?
[/B][/QUOTE]
It is my understanding that Buffer Under Run is only a problem during burning sessions, where the computer cannot feed the CD/DVD writer enough info fast enough.
Once the disk is made, that shouldn't even be an issue at playback.
Unless I'm thinking of something else...
BTW, I have a Plextor 12/10/32A CDRW drive that works great, so I wouldn't hesitate to recomend the brand to you.
;)
And for Cabl3 Guy... At least I wouldn't use any HD without cooling.
And if you have two of them its's necessary... even when there's height of one HD between them.
[B][b]RAM Type[/b]
I found some review of OCZ RAM. It seems very, very nice. But I don't plan on overclocking anything; and supposedly the CPU will be a bottleneck. I think overclocking the CPU is supposed to help with that; but again, no overclocking for me. I value piece of mind over 4-5 more frames per second.
At the same time; OCZ RAM isn't that much more expensive. And it is better. The money I save wouldn't really help me justify a differen't upgrade in its place. At least, I don't think so.
So will I notice it if I downgrade to some cheaper but still non-budget Corsair RAM? I don't think I will, but if I knew enough about computers to know then I wouldn't have started a thread asking for advice.[/b][/quote]
Going for the OCZ is highly recommended if you can. Particularly if you plan on doing a ton of rendering since the faster timing will boost your rendering power just a tad. (Just remember to install the RAM in a configuration that would allow the board to run the sticks in "Dual Channel" mode. Read the manual for more info.)
If you were just going to do some light gaming, or just general websurfing, I wouldn't even go for the OCZ at all. Anything other than heavy use, and you're just blowing money on a more expensive part that isn't doing you any good.
[quote][b]Optical Drive[/b]
Regarding the Optical Drive, I've just now realized that Dual Layer does not mean being able to read and write both + and - formats (thanks Vert.).[/quote]
Ok, lets stop right there. You obviously haven't done enough research on the matter and are confusing the labels "Dual Format" and "Dual Layer".
See, when DVD burners first came out, we only had three real choices. DVD+ (R or RW), DVD- (R or RW), and DVD-RAM. I'm not even touching DVD-RAM since it was an utter failure (just like DivX years ago. Again, this is NOT to be confused with the video codec of the same name.) First generation burners only had the capability to write to one standard only (which was at the disgression of the manufacturer whether or not to choose to support minus or plus media. This may not mean jack shit to you, but keep in mind that your store-bought DVDs typically make use of two layers on the same disk in order to double storage capacity. Now, the MPAA made a stink about the piracy issue (they did the same thing over the VCR). In order to appease them, manufacturers made DVD writable media one layer or the other. That limits you to 4.7GB of available storage (dual layer media is twice that). However, it wasn't long until [b]dual format[/b] burners came out, which could not only read, but write to both DVD plus and minus media. However, those burners cannot burn to [b]dual layer[/b] media. Again, this is due to the bitching by the MPAA over the piracy issue. [b]Dual layer[/b] burners (which CAN write to dual layer media, as well as plus and minus media) are a more recent release since the MPAA's arguements have gone the way of the VCR in validity.
[quote][b]I have a really crappy computer (that has the special ability to run Deus Ex: Invisible War bizzarely smoothly), and I can't remember ever having to deal with a "buffer under run error." So is this something I should even be concerned about with a much, much faster computer? Concerned enough to sacrifice read/write speeds (of written CDs/DVDs) for buffer under run free technology?[/b][/quote]
Every burner currently out there has some sort of buffer underrun (sometimes referred to as buffer overrun as well) protection. What the deal with that is this:
Early burners had no such protection, so when you ran programs while you were burning a CD, you ran the risk of burning a coaster (or burning a CD riddled with errors). It wasn't a few years until burners came out with protection against that sort of thing. See, when the buffer empties while a burn is in progress, the burner shuts off the laser until the buffer is full again. This [b]greatly[/b] reduces the chance of burning a coaster.
[quote][b]Also, how do I widen the window I type into? For some reason it has gotten really thin and there's no option in the User CP that I can find to change it to what it used to be. [/B][/QUOTE]
As for your case, you'll definitely want a door of some kind. Trust me, ease of access should be your highest priority, then airflow. When you take into consideration of airflow, keep in mind that more fans equals more noise. Shoot for 120mm fans if at all possible. They spin at a lower RPM, but move close to three times the air volume per minute than your typical 80mm fan.
As for the post window, you can blame Kier Darby on that. At the time, He was [b]very[/b] pro IE and didn't really test vbulletin in anything else, and from what I gather used a fair bit if proprietary code. He was under the mindset that if it worked in IE, it was fine. Since Mozilla and FireFox follow strictly to W3C specs, it renders pages completely different and is very unforgiving to poor coding techniques. This was resolved in version 3 of the bulletin board software.
Once I have all the fans in place, I put my see through cover on and place a lit cigar (whatever produces smoke works, I just like the smell too) in front of my air intake. I watch the smoke and look for dead air. Meaning a place inside my case that does not have positive air flow. This ensures that the air moving through my machine stays cool and you dont get warm/hot patches around destroying my components.
I know some people even have plexiglass side covers all together, but I keep my entire case surrounded in anodized aluminium for the best possible heat dissapation.
but then, keep in mind, Im a damn freak when it comes to cooling. I use only Thermaltake fans (regardless of the noise they create) because they move air consistantly and quickly. When I fix my domain registrar and have a website I can host stuff on again, Ill post a soundbyte of what my computer sounds like at idle. shes loud.
I don't know if this was bought up but they have learned to strain the wafer better. We will cheat moores law no matter what
[url]http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=technologyNews&storyID=7074424[/url]
[B]Once I have all the fans in place, I put my see through cover on and place a lit cigar (whatever produces smoke works, I just like the smell too) in front of my air intake. I watch the smoke and look for dead air. Meaning a place inside my case that does not have positive air flow. This ensures that the air moving through my machine stays cool and you dont get warm/hot patches around destroying my components.[/b][/quote]
Just be careful about doing that. You're slowly introducing tar to the components, and let me tell you that having your computer slowly turn a shade of yellow is not a good thing.
I actually had to clean out a computer owned by a chain smoker. I won't go into the details, but lets just say it was NOT pretty on the inside. You're better off using canned fog, or burning something like paper (outside your home obviously). At the most, that'd leave a little soot which could be cleaned out with compressed air.
[quote][b]I know some people even have plexiglass side covers all together, but I keep my entire case surrounded in anodized aluminium for the best possible heat dissapation.[/b][/quote]
heh, I've seen cases made entirely out of lucite. I pity the poor fool that buys one. Talk about RF interference city...
[quote][b]but then, keep in mind, Im a damn freak when it comes to cooling. I use only Thermaltake fans (regardless of the noise they create) because they move air consistantly and quickly. When I fix my domain registrar and have a website I can host stuff on again, Ill post a soundbyte of what my computer sounds like at idle. shes loud. [/B][/QUOTE]
heheh, I'm the same way. Thats why I got a Fortron power supply with a 120mm fan in it. Before I was constantly running up in the mid 40's on my CPU at idle. Now I'm idling at around 38C.
Though I try to keep noise low. Bought high CFM low dB fans as much as I could, then knock them mostly down to about 90% RPMs to drop the noise without much CFM drop comparitively. My main rear exhaust fans are 100% though.
I just don't understand why they put an ultrabright blue LED for the power light in it though...I put duct tape over the end of the plastic light guide and can still see it lit! Do they think you need to have a spot light on the wall in your bedroom for some reason?
Otherwise, no bright lights in my case...not even purple ones :)
Sometime I should check for negative air flow...but it seems to keep fairly good air flow just looking at it.
:D
I love the electron glow...
[B]I just don't understand why they put an ultrabright blue LED for the power light in it though...I put duct tape over the end of the plastic light guide and can still see it lit! Do they think you need to have a spot light on the wall in your bedroom for some reason?[/B][/QUOTE]Just wait when those damned fashion designers get their hands to PCs, then they will become anything else than practical.
I agree that that manufacturer's should make cases with 120mm fans instead of small "turbines", that's one thing they seem to be uncapable to learn.
[B]I agree that that manufacturer's should make cases with 120mm fans instead of small "turbines", that's one thing they seem to be uncapable to learn. [/B][/QUOTE]
Shit, I've yet to see one with decent airflow. They've yet to learn that negative pressure is not what you want when it comes to keeping components cool.
They've been using 90 and 120mm fans for...two years now?
Fantastic cases, too.
3700-BQE is my top reccomendation nowadays.
$2080.88
Lian-Li PC-V1000 Aluminum Ultra Quiet (no PS)
Ultra X-Connect ULT31558 ATX 12V 500W
Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe nForce4
AMD Athlon 64 3500+ 512K 90nm (939)
Thermaltake A1772 AMD
1 GB RAM (512x2) Corsair Twin1024-3200C2PT
NEC ND-3500A/GNS 16X Dual Layer DVD±RW (Silver)
SATA Hitachi 160 GB 7200 RPM w/8MB cache
Creative Labs Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS Gamer
Two XFX GeForce 6600 GT 128 MB DDR3/PCI-Es in SLI
Windows XP Pro with Service Pack 2 (yay)
Now the questions.
For the same price, I can get a Western Digital hard drive that holds 40 GB more than the one I have in my current configuration with the Hitachi. Is the Hitachi that much better? Or am I falling for the "expansive=better" marketing trick?
On the Raptor drives:
How noticable is a 3,200 RPM difference in a hard drive? Is it worth the lower capacity and higher cost, and having to burn a lot of digital pictures onto DVD-Rs? (I have a spindle of 100 I bought for $20.)
[url]http://www.corsairmicro.com/corsair/products/specs/twinx1024-3200ll.pdf[/url]
For my choice of RAM, I had affodable upgradibility in mind. And by that, I mean I figured it would be easy to find that kind of Corsair RAM for a decent price if I ever needed it. (To me, a really expensive computer looks a lot different than a really expensive upgrade.) Am I wrong, or, have I chosen terrible RAM?
Considering [URL=http://www.hcgamer.hu/gamer/index.php?p=5&c=11247&hw=1&tores=1]this[/URL] about "TES: Oblivion"
[quote]It's a new piece of technology we have been working on for some time, taking in everything we learned in our past games. It's pixel-shader heavy. We really got excited by doing the water effects in Morrowind, so now we're taking that kind of care to every surface - whether it be metal, wood, stone, blood, skin, you name it. We also work in several middleware packages like Havok and Gamebryo. The detail level is amazing, as you can see from the screenshots.
In particular we're using normal maps (for lighting), diffuse maps (for color), specular maps (for shininess), and parallax maps (for geometry detail). There's also specific shaders for skin, hair, and many others. Parallax mapping is a new and exciting technique that's similar to displacement mapping, but is much friendlier to the video cards.[/quote]
Would I be making a mistake if I went with two 6600 GTs and didn't upgrade later? Since SLI gives each card 8x, I figured the whole "wait for cards to take advantage of PCIe" thing wouldn't matter much. And if I'm not mistaken, the GT isn't some budget series. Am I wrong?
I know I ask about this one a lot, but I have trouble believing anything I build today can run that game decently, with its crazy textures and "Radiant AI."