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"And there is nothing more dangerous then a man with nothing to lose. Nothing to live for and nothing to prove."
[i]Brendan Perry, Dead Can Dance[/i]
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Woo!
And here's a link for you all! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
Cool, but I have a question. How would the player been able to mandate and control different formations in ITF or was the Starburst manuver added to story for effect. To my knowledge there has never been a space sim with squad executable manuvers (other than simple ones such as "Form up on my wing" etc).
It would seem to me a system of preset formations (similar to the system in Myth(I think)) would work well, as well a set of manuvers that can be "learned".
Theoretically, yes. It was possible to select one or more or all of the ships under your command, and then give them specific commands. One of the commands that a squad leader could use was “blockade”. While the specific maneuver for a blockade wasn’t specified to the AI when the game moved up to Bellevue, AFAIK, it seems to me that in 3D space a blockade would have to be a somewhat spherical flanking maneuver.
We had talked about the ability to ‘build’ flight formations that could be triggered by a hotkey, but I think this idea fell by the wayside. If I ever had anything to do with designing a space combat sim again, I definitely want this feature.
Anyway, to make Max’s squad do what happened in Max’s most recent post, the squad leader would select the thing to blockade, select ships of his squad on the Nav Tac, and then select ‘Blockade’ from a list of available commands. When the Frazi’s took off in formation for the station, the squad leader would select the group as a target, select his squad, select ‘attack’, and select ‘initiate’.
It sounds more difficult that it is, because the tactical interfaces were slick and fast.
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 02-04-2002).]
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Formations are definitely something that is needed in space sims. They were very effective in Homeworld, imagine what that would be like in a first person sim!
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
Programable formations would be awsome in a space sim, but only if you had intellegent wingmen. How often have you sent wingmen to take care of a seemingly easy target while you concentrate on the bigger fish, only to realize a minute later that your wing man has been splashed and the "target" is now your problem.
Another thing I dislike in space sims is the fact you are a "hero". Almost every objective has to be completed by you personally, not by your squadron. WC Prophecy is a good example, when your done playing the game look at the kill board, you have at least 50% more kills than any one else, whats up with that???
What I envision would be a space sim where you have realistic physics and programable sqaud formations that you set up in a system similar to the mission editor in Freespace, then must train with your squad to "learn" the manuver. Also as military planners do their work or other squads develop manuvers you can load and learn them. The same system can be used to help set up the manuvers for cap ships when you become a commander.
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[i]This is crazy. I hope I haven't brain my damaged.[/i]
[i]If only I could get my hands on that gunner...If only I had hands[/i] Murry the Evil Skull
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Formations should not be too hard to do. Make the AI, when it is in formation, try and keep its ship in the same position relative to your ship or whoever is the leader of the squad. When that ship moves, the AI moves its ship to stay in formation. The tricky bit would be to give the AI the ability to be flexible enough with this position to still attack people.
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[quote]Originally posted by Biggles:
[b]Formations should not be too hard to do. Make the AI, when it is in formation, try and keep its ship in the same position relative to your ship or whoever is the leader of the squad. When that ship moves, the AI moves its ship to stay in formation. The tricky bit would be to give the AI the ability to be flexible enough with this position to still attack people.
[/b][/quote]
It's not that easy. Let me speak about my own experience in such matters.
Every complex formation will break in the intense close dogfight. At least if we speak about fighters fighting fighters. And there are these cool zero-g maneuvers... Imagine you follow your squad leader. You fly right behind him as formation dictates. And now he receives the "enemy lock" warning, spins around and engages his AB. You won't be able to follow him. Formation will break. Now YOU are locked, and you don't care anymore about formations, you take evasive actions.
You can sustain the formation BEFORE you reach the enemy and BEFORE everything will turn into chaos of close combat. Of course there is coordination, orders and stuff, but NO formation. It is good to reach the area of engagement in formation, make a few shots, and spread out. But in dogfight, all attempts to maintain the formation means that your maneuverability is LIMITED. Been there, done that. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]Watch your six, watch your wingman, coordinate your actions with him, but do not restrain yourself.
Tell me what I've missed... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
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[IFH team]
Oleg from Space Dream Factory
- Quod licet Draal, non licet Zathras -
Formations are like this: use the right tool for the right occasion.
If you want your squad to follow you through a mine field, a jumpgate, a debris field, or if you want them all at one place at the same time, formations are good.
Formations can also be good for baiting an opponent. You come into the arena in formation, the opponent decides what to do based on that formation, and then you have your squad to something quick and unpredictable that screws up their plans. This will get you a little advantage. After that, during the dog fight, formations are less useful.
But what if you want your squad to all break from the dogfight at the same time, get quickly into a formation and go after one particular objective, using speed superiority while deploying decoys? What if you want to, during a hairball, suddenly send half of your squad in one direction and the other half in another direction? What if you want to outwit simple AI with a quick, organized flanking maneuver? In a dogfight the opponent may not expect a sudden, organized maneuver.
Just depends on the situation and the squad leader’s creativity.
If you want to see what it might be like, some of these things are already implemented in the current (2.5) demo version of Starshatter.
Fighter elements know how to follow four different pre-planned formations: diamond, box, spread, and trail. Prior to a mission, you can set up your navpoints so that the element will automatically switch to the appropriate formation on cue (e.g. switch to trail before hitting a strike target). In addition, you can always override the current pre-planned formation using a radio call (e.g. GO SPREAD).
By the way, let me assure you that programming AI pilots to maintain specific formations around an unpredictable human pilot using realistic physics is non trivial.
There aren't really any specific "maneuvers" for combat situations in Starshatter, except that you can use a radio call to order your element to bracket the target. In that case, ships 1 and 3 will break left and ships 2 and 4 will break right and slightly high to approach the target from two different vectors and planes of motion.
Freejack - your idea for realistic physics and programmable formations and training is really cool. But it would never sell. It's just way too complicated for the average space sim player, I'm afraid.
Randy - "Just depends on the situation and the squad leader's creativity." Yeah, that and the specific game rules. All too often I find that fancy plans don't help me survive against my AI pilots that are just simply better shots than I am. Even with aiming assistance. sigh.
Sometimes the only thing that helps me live through engagements is to use my wingman as live bait. I'll order him to attack the target, and hang back. When the enemy ships target him, I'll try to slip in behind them and take them out. My AI wingmen are afraid to fly with me...
I don't remember if we've talked about this before, and it's sort of off topic, but in ITF we were interested in having any battle arena be around 'something' - a station, big ship, asteroid, debris field, whatever. The idea was to get away from simply having dogfights and long distance beam weapon wars in open space, which seemed to us like it would get old fast and leave few options. It would simply be a short contest of technical superiority. If the battle arena were around or throughout something big, then suddenly the fighting becomes more complicated, and the feeling of speed is achieved through passing by or thorough an environmental frame of reference. In fighter engagements, hide and seek, guerrilla tactics and skilled maneuvering ability come into play. We also made sure that plenty of civilian traffic was in the way – civilian traffic that was likely to do unpredictable things - and there was a real penalty for taking out civilians – anything to screw up a well-made plan.
I'm not sure what this has to do with formations, except that in a mixed up arena like those described, formations may play more of a role than in open space combat.
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 02-07-2002).]
[quote]Originally posted by Freeze:
[b]I'll better check what the poor kid has done this time ... here linkie linkie ... [b]must find a post with Biggles's signature[/b].[/B][/quote]
That's not too hard...you have over 10K posts to choose from. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
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Chase
Web Hosting Provider for FirstOnes.com
http://www.radiusco.com/
Implementation issue: One of the hardest issues about getting a player-led formation going is training the player to be "one of the team" - flying slow enough and without insane maneuvres so the wingmen have a realistic chance of holding formation. That's slightly easier to do in atmospheric flight - slower maneuvring and bigger fuel costs for flying as fast as possible - but in nippy little space craft that's nigh on impossible.
Cool Idea® time: Wouldn't it be cool if someone made a space sim where formations really really really matter? Somewhat like Shogun (Japanese ancient ground combat war game, where you (theoretically) dance around in formations until one side grasps an advantage). At the moment games have battles that are based more on "fighter ship class is maneuvreable enough to kill bomber ship class, which is powerful enough to kill cap ship class" etc etc - a big brawl of ship types until one side loses out in one class, and the rest collapse soon after. How about having "archer" ships that really [i]can[/i] fire light lasers kilometres without penalty (like lasers [i]should[/i] do), "phalanx" ships that can put out enough power in a wide/distributed enough arc of fire to cripple anything that comes close, "horse" ships for the quick assaults, you get the idea. So you do need defense in the right sectors - a good defense will stop anything, but watch your flanks, yada yada.
The infinite range of a laser could be a problem, but do we actually have the technology to keep a beam parallel for over several kilometers? (I honestly don't actually know the answer to this question. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] )
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
I would expect it to depend on the power of the laser, actually. If the laser is powerful enough, not all the energy would be reflected. I think.
Getting to Grant's issue (about time you turned up!): What would need to be done is actually make it worth the effort of being in formation. In current space sim games, it is always every man for himself. The AI is really not capable of carrying out missions properly, the best you can do with them is tell them to take out or defend a specific target. That's the first thing that needs to be fixed. If the AI is good enough, then it becomes worthwhile to work along side them properly.
Secondly, do something like what Homeworld did: make formations effective in increasing combat effectiveness. The sphere formation is probably the best example here: using it you could have 20 ships easily surround a capital ship and take it out. The X formation is extremely good at taking out fighters, as it allows all ships in the formation to be in range and attack at once while still remaining manouverable. However, like Grant said, getting AI that can stay in formation with a player who is dancing all over the place is difficult.
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
formations in fighter classes are pretty much as people have suggested. Only good for intial attack runs or what have you. Or in attacks on slow or static targets. Whatever 'ack-ack' comes up at you can often be diffused by attacking in certain patterns...
where formations really count is in slow movers.. capitals.
There old sea navy tactics and systems come into play... frigates, carriers destroyers etc deploy in certain ways to make best use of thier defensive and offensive power.
"Crossing the T"... "ships 'o' the line...
Boxes... flanking etc.
The only real difference is that if you really consider 3D space it makes sense to deploy your ships in 'pipes' ie your big capitals form a line astern... and your destroyer classes make a loose 'tube' around them and then your frigates on the outside...
You fighter classes just swarm all over doing what they do best... moving freakin fast and dodging everything they can... playing hide and seek and tag around the capitals.
That's one thing that Homeworld didnt really account for... everything was planar.. while that makes sense for us now.... if you really embrace space as three diemensional... there should be no up and down...
The weapons and strongest defensive systems should face outwards from the tube I mentioned or from a sphere...
Ships on the 'bottom' of a formation should be 'upside down', ships astern and to port should rolled 90 degrees to face outwards... that way you maximise your sensors, weapons and defenses outwards.
It adds some complexity... but in the end if you can cope with the multiplanar style you will have a distinct advantage. There is no such thing as 'dropping from on high' or 'attacking the weak underbelly'... just like any sphere, this type spreads the force of any blows against it over its surface.
If there as any detraction to this system it is trying to nail something that has somehow got inside the sphere. All sorts of nasty crossfire problems occur. In this case... that's where fighters come in... focusing thier attacks on any interlopers inside the Defensive zone.
Really... in game terms formations are difficult to say the least for anything but drones... human error destroyed LOTS of ships during the big naval battles of the 1800's.
Allthough I agree with Biggles that the 'claw' and all the other formations looked great for gnat class ships... there is just no way you could keep that kind of disciplined approach with small craft... it's just impracticable.
Having said that its devastating when you get a small pile of Ion frigates to pick on another larger capital ship. Pastes things very quickly if you 'sphere' them.
Wouldn't lasers just bounce off of mirrored surfaces?[/b][/quote]
It depends on their power. No mirror is really perfect, not all the light would be reflected. It may reflect 99.9% of the light but that little bit it doesn't reflect can be significant especially if the laser is very high powered. In the case of a low power laser the amount of energy transfered to the mirror would not be sufficient to heat the mirror faster than it can disipate the generated heat (meaning no damage would be caused). With a more powerful laser the small fraction that isn't reflected becomes significant... the point of significance being the point where the power supplied by the laser is greater than the power (heat) the mirror can disipate... the mirror would heat up and eventually be destroyed.
There are other effects of high powered lasers that would also be potentially significant. Light, that is photons, are made of oscillating electric and magnetic fields, if the laser intensity is significantly high enough these electric and magnetic fields can rival those that bind atoms together (electrons to the nucleus)... the effect of these fields would cause either a massive change in the properties of the material (such as making it no longer reflective) or tear it apart to form a plasma.
Big lasers do a whole lot more than just heat things [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
[quote][b]Could an incoming laser beam be bent away with an electromagnetic field?[/b][/quote]
Nope. A gravitational field, yes.
[quote][b]Is there a physicist in the house?[/b][/quote]
CnlPepper - A physicist [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
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[b]HW:B5TC Dev. Team Member and B5TC Board Moderator.[/b]
[url="http://www.geocities.com/cnlpepperplanet"]CnlPepper's B5 Mod Resources[/url]
Since someone brought up formations in Homeworld, one thing that bugged me was the bigger formations or cap ship formations becase very unweildy.
Since the game engine always force the formation to turn as whole it could take forever to get a formation turned around.
I really wish the engine had supported battle turns, such as the German navy used at Jutland, where every ship in the formation turns 180 so the rearmost ship is now the lead ship. Much faster manuver than moving the whole formation around.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Sorry, smaller posts are easier to write. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
... but I saw a PBS show, think it was Nova, where a light beam passing through a vacuum in a glass tube was significantly bent by an electromagnetic field...
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Light is electromagnetic waves as well as photons. Thus it should be capable of being bent by electromagnetic fields.
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[quote]Originally posted by Biggles:
[b]Light is electromagnetic waves as well as photons. Thus it should be capable of being bent by electromagnetic fields.
[/b][/quote]
Nope... external electric (E) and magnetic (B) fields are just in a superposition with the photons E and B fields. They don't directly interact.
[quote]... but I saw a PBS show, think it was Nova, where a light beam passing through a vacuum in a glass tube was significantly bent by an electromagnetic field...[/quote]
You can't see light travelling through a vacuum unless you are in its path. You most likely saw an electron beam in a low density gas being deflected by an E field. The electrons collide with the low density gas producing radiation (in this case light) which you can see.
Assembling and doing the experiments personally is believeing.... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/tongue.gif[/img] [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
CnlPepper - In the 4th and final year of a physics degree...
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[b]HW:B5TC Dev. Team Member and B5TC Board Moderator.[/b]
[url="http://www.geocities.com/cnlpepperplanet"]CnlPepper's B5 Mod Resources[/url]
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
[quote]Originally posted by CnlPepper:
[b] You can't see light travelling through a vacuum unless you are in its path. You most likely saw an electron beam in a low density gas being deflected by an E field. The electrons collide with the low density gas producing radiation (in this case light) which you can see.[/b][/quote]
Kinda like a neon light?
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Oh cool! Off to read!
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
Comments
as usual!
Thanks oh-unknown author!! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
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"And there is nothing more dangerous then a man with nothing to lose. Nothing to live for and nothing to prove."
[i]Brendan Perry, Dead Can Dance[/i]
And here's a link for you all! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
It would seem to me a system of preset formations (similar to the system in Myth(I think)) would work well, as well a set of manuvers that can be "learned".
Jake
We had talked about the ability to ‘build’ flight formations that could be triggered by a hotkey, but I think this idea fell by the wayside. If I ever had anything to do with designing a space combat sim again, I definitely want this feature.
Anyway, to make Max’s squad do what happened in Max’s most recent post, the squad leader would select the thing to blockade, select ships of his squad on the Nav Tac, and then select ‘Blockade’ from a list of available commands. When the Frazi’s took off in formation for the station, the squad leader would select the group as a target, select his squad, select ‘attack’, and select ‘initiate’.
It sounds more difficult that it is, because the tactical interfaces were slick and fast.
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 02-04-2002).]
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
I would love to actually see that Starburst trick, it must look impressive...
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'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen
Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://www.nialb5.com"]www.NialB5.com[/url].
Another thing I dislike in space sims is the fact you are a "hero". Almost every objective has to be completed by you personally, not by your squadron. WC Prophecy is a good example, when your done playing the game look at the kill board, you have at least 50% more kills than any one else, whats up with that???
What I envision would be a space sim where you have realistic physics and programable sqaud formations that you set up in a system similar to the mission editor in Freespace, then must train with your squad to "learn" the manuver. Also as military planners do their work or other squads develop manuvers you can load and learn them. The same system can be used to help set up the manuvers for cap ships when you become a commander.
------------------
[i]This is crazy. I hope I haven't brain my damaged.[/i]
[i]If only I could get my hands on that gunner...If only I had hands[/i] Murry the Evil Skull
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
Whats the next EA rank after LCDR anyway?
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Babylon6 in orbit @ [url="http://www.nomad-jedi.com"]http://www.nomad-jedi.com/[/url]
[b]Check out this author: [url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/[/url][/b]
[b]Formations should not be too hard to do. Make the AI, when it is in formation, try and keep its ship in the same position relative to your ship or whoever is the leader of the squad. When that ship moves, the AI moves its ship to stay in formation. The tricky bit would be to give the AI the ability to be flexible enough with this position to still attack people.
[/b][/quote]
It's not that easy. Let me speak about my own experience in such matters.
Every complex formation will break in the intense close dogfight. At least if we speak about fighters fighting fighters. And there are these cool zero-g maneuvers... Imagine you follow your squad leader. You fly right behind him as formation dictates. And now he receives the "enemy lock" warning, spins around and engages his AB. You won't be able to follow him. Formation will break. Now YOU are locked, and you don't care anymore about formations, you take evasive actions.
You can sustain the formation BEFORE you reach the enemy and BEFORE everything will turn into chaos of close combat. Of course there is coordination, orders and stuff, but NO formation. It is good to reach the area of engagement in formation, make a few shots, and spread out. But in dogfight, all attempts to maintain the formation means that your maneuverability is LIMITED. Been there, done that. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]Watch your six, watch your wingman, coordinate your actions with him, but do not restrain yourself.
Tell me what I've missed... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
------------------
[IFH team]
Oleg from Space Dream Factory
- Quod licet Draal, non licet Zathras -
Formations are like this: use the right tool for the right occasion.
If you want your squad to follow you through a mine field, a jumpgate, a debris field, or if you want them all at one place at the same time, formations are good.
Formations can also be good for baiting an opponent. You come into the arena in formation, the opponent decides what to do based on that formation, and then you have your squad to something quick and unpredictable that screws up their plans. This will get you a little advantage. After that, during the dog fight, formations are less useful.
But what if you want your squad to all break from the dogfight at the same time, get quickly into a formation and go after one particular objective, using speed superiority while deploying decoys? What if you want to, during a hairball, suddenly send half of your squad in one direction and the other half in another direction? What if you want to outwit simple AI with a quick, organized flanking maneuver? In a dogfight the opponent may not expect a sudden, organized maneuver.
Just depends on the situation and the squad leader’s creativity.
Fighter elements know how to follow four different pre-planned formations: diamond, box, spread, and trail. Prior to a mission, you can set up your navpoints so that the element will automatically switch to the appropriate formation on cue (e.g. switch to trail before hitting a strike target). In addition, you can always override the current pre-planned formation using a radio call (e.g. GO SPREAD).
By the way, let me assure you that programming AI pilots to maintain specific formations around an unpredictable human pilot using realistic physics is non trivial.
There aren't really any specific "maneuvers" for combat situations in Starshatter, except that you can use a radio call to order your element to bracket the target. In that case, ships 1 and 3 will break left and ships 2 and 4 will break right and slightly high to approach the target from two different vectors and planes of motion.
Freejack - your idea for realistic physics and programmable formations and training is really cool. But it would never sell. It's just way too complicated for the average space sim player, I'm afraid.
Randy - "Just depends on the situation and the squad leader's creativity." Yeah, that and the specific game rules. All too often I find that fancy plans don't help me survive against my AI pilots that are just simply better shots than I am. Even with aiming assistance. sigh.
Sometimes the only thing that helps me live through engagements is to use my wingman as live bait. I'll order him to attack the target, and hang back. When the enemy ships target him, I'll try to slip in behind them and take them out. My AI wingmen are afraid to fly with me...
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--milo
[url="http://www.starshatter.com"]http://www.starshatter.com[/url]
I'm not sure what this has to do with formations, except that in a mixed up arena like those described, formations may play more of a role than in open space combat.
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 02-07-2002).]
[b]I'll better check what the poor kid has done this time ... here linkie linkie ... [b]must find a post with Biggles's signature[/b].[/B][/quote]
That's not too hard...you have over 10K posts to choose from. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
------------------
Chase
Web Hosting Provider for FirstOnes.com
http://www.radiusco.com/
Implementation issue: One of the hardest issues about getting a player-led formation going is training the player to be "one of the team" - flying slow enough and without insane maneuvres so the wingmen have a realistic chance of holding formation. That's slightly easier to do in atmospheric flight - slower maneuvring and bigger fuel costs for flying as fast as possible - but in nippy little space craft that's nigh on impossible.
Cool Idea® time: Wouldn't it be cool if someone made a space sim where formations really really really matter? Somewhat like Shogun (Japanese ancient ground combat war game, where you (theoretically) dance around in formations until one side grasps an advantage). At the moment games have battles that are based more on "fighter ship class is maneuvreable enough to kill bomber ship class, which is powerful enough to kill cap ship class" etc etc - a big brawl of ship types until one side loses out in one class, and the rest collapse soon after. How about having "archer" ships that really [i]can[/i] fire light lasers kilometres without penalty (like lasers [i]should[/i] do), "phalanx" ships that can put out enough power in a wide/distributed enough arc of fire to cripple anything that comes close, "horse" ships for the quick assaults, you get the idea. So you do need defense in the right sectors - a good defense will stop anything, but watch your flanks, yada yada.
The infinite range of a laser could be a problem, but do we actually have the technology to keep a beam parallel for over several kilometers? (I honestly don't actually know the answer to this question. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] )
Wouldn't lasers just bounce off of mirrored surfaces?
Could an incoming laser beam be bent away with an electromagnetic field?
Is there a physicist in the house?
Yes
Yes
No
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
Getting to Grant's issue (about time you turned up!): What would need to be done is actually make it worth the effort of being in formation. In current space sim games, it is always every man for himself. The AI is really not capable of carrying out missions properly, the best you can do with them is tell them to take out or defend a specific target. That's the first thing that needs to be fixed. If the AI is good enough, then it becomes worthwhile to work along side them properly.
Secondly, do something like what Homeworld did: make formations effective in increasing combat effectiveness. The sphere formation is probably the best example here: using it you could have 20 ships easily surround a capital ship and take it out. The X formation is extremely good at taking out fighters, as it allows all ships in the formation to be in range and attack at once while still remaining manouverable. However, like Grant said, getting AI that can stay in formation with a player who is dancing all over the place is difficult.
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
where formations really count is in slow movers.. capitals.
There old sea navy tactics and systems come into play... frigates, carriers destroyers etc deploy in certain ways to make best use of thier defensive and offensive power.
"Crossing the T"... "ships 'o' the line...
Boxes... flanking etc.
The only real difference is that if you really consider 3D space it makes sense to deploy your ships in 'pipes' ie your big capitals form a line astern... and your destroyer classes make a loose 'tube' around them and then your frigates on the outside...
You fighter classes just swarm all over doing what they do best... moving freakin fast and dodging everything they can... playing hide and seek and tag around the capitals.
That's one thing that Homeworld didnt really account for... everything was planar.. while that makes sense for us now.... if you really embrace space as three diemensional... there should be no up and down...
The weapons and strongest defensive systems should face outwards from the tube I mentioned or from a sphere...
Ships on the 'bottom' of a formation should be 'upside down', ships astern and to port should rolled 90 degrees to face outwards... that way you maximise your sensors, weapons and defenses outwards.
It adds some complexity... but in the end if you can cope with the multiplanar style you will have a distinct advantage. There is no such thing as 'dropping from on high' or 'attacking the weak underbelly'... just like any sphere, this type spreads the force of any blows against it over its surface.
If there as any detraction to this system it is trying to nail something that has somehow got inside the sphere. All sorts of nasty crossfire problems occur. In this case... that's where fighters come in... focusing thier attacks on any interlopers inside the Defensive zone.
Really... in game terms formations are difficult to say the least for anything but drones... human error destroyed LOTS of ships during the big naval battles of the 1800's.
Allthough I agree with Biggles that the 'claw' and all the other formations looked great for gnat class ships... there is just no way you could keep that kind of disciplined approach with small craft... it's just impracticable.
Having said that its devastating when you get a small pile of Ion frigates to pick on another larger capital ship. Pastes things very quickly if you 'sphere' them.
[b] Here's something I'm completely ignorant about:
Wouldn't lasers just bounce off of mirrored surfaces?[/b][/quote]
It depends on their power. No mirror is really perfect, not all the light would be reflected. It may reflect 99.9% of the light but that little bit it doesn't reflect can be significant especially if the laser is very high powered. In the case of a low power laser the amount of energy transfered to the mirror would not be sufficient to heat the mirror faster than it can disipate the generated heat (meaning no damage would be caused). With a more powerful laser the small fraction that isn't reflected becomes significant... the point of significance being the point where the power supplied by the laser is greater than the power (heat) the mirror can disipate... the mirror would heat up and eventually be destroyed.
There are other effects of high powered lasers that would also be potentially significant. Light, that is photons, are made of oscillating electric and magnetic fields, if the laser intensity is significantly high enough these electric and magnetic fields can rival those that bind atoms together (electrons to the nucleus)... the effect of these fields would cause either a massive change in the properties of the material (such as making it no longer reflective) or tear it apart to form a plasma.
Big lasers do a whole lot more than just heat things [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
[quote][b]Could an incoming laser beam be bent away with an electromagnetic field?[/b][/quote]
Nope. A gravitational field, yes.
[quote][b]Is there a physicist in the house?[/b][/quote]
Yes [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
CnlPepper - A physicist [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
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[b]HW:B5TC Dev. Team Member and B5TC Board Moderator.[/b]
[url="http://www.geocities.com/cnlpepperplanet"]CnlPepper's B5 Mod Resources[/url]
Since the game engine always force the formation to turn as whole it could take forever to get a formation turned around.
I really wish the engine had supported battle turns, such as the German navy used at Jutland, where every ship in the formation turns 180 so the rearmost ship is now the lead ship. Much faster manuver than moving the whole formation around.
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
... but I saw a PBS show, think it was Nova, where a light beam passing through a vacuum in a glass tube was significantly bent by an electromagnetic field...
Seeing is believing...
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[b]Light is electromagnetic waves as well as photons. Thus it should be capable of being bent by electromagnetic fields.
[/b][/quote]
Nope... external electric (E) and magnetic (B) fields are just in a superposition with the photons E and B fields. They don't directly interact.
[quote]... but I saw a PBS show, think it was Nova, where a light beam passing through a vacuum in a glass tube was significantly bent by an electromagnetic field...[/quote]
You can't see light travelling through a vacuum unless you are in its path. You most likely saw an electron beam in a low density gas being deflected by an E field. The electrons collide with the low density gas producing radiation (in this case light) which you can see.
Assembling and doing the experiments personally is believeing.... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/tongue.gif[/img] [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
CnlPepper - In the 4th and final year of a physics degree...
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[b]HW:B5TC Dev. Team Member and B5TC Board Moderator.[/b]
[url="http://www.geocities.com/cnlpepperplanet"]CnlPepper's B5 Mod Resources[/url]
[b] You can't see light travelling through a vacuum unless you are in its path. You most likely saw an electron beam in a low density gas being deflected by an E field. The electrons collide with the low density gas producing radiation (in this case light) which you can see.[/b][/quote]
Kinda like a neon light?
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras