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should the USA pull out of Iraq?
The Cabl3 Guy
Elite Ranger
in Zocalo v2.0
No I don't think we should pull out of Iraq I think we should pull out of TEXAS! THERE GOES THAT BIG HUNK OF DELEGATES! Alright so we lose a couple calculators & copy machines, not to mention alot of crude oil but hey we've got IRAQ for that :D.
Comments
you KNOW it will happen.
[B]we pull out now, someone alot worse then saddam will run the nation, and every terrorist on the world is going to head our way 'cause we're scared.
you KNOW it will happen. [/B][/QUOTE]
Agreed! Despite not agreeing to the war in the first place I daresay now its been done, things would be hell of a lot worse to pull out now.
First off you need to understand my position, Im a former US Marine. I have a lot of friends and a few family members serving in Iraq. Most of whom are young men and women that have young families hoping to never see their loved one on the news.
You also need to understand my position about GWB. Hes a fucking moron, and has no business in the whitehouse, not even as a janitors aid. I would say I have no idea why he was voted into office, but its moot point, because he wasnt. The only president in US history ever to lose the election yet become president.
Now dont get me wrong, Saddam Husein(sp) was a tyrant, a murderer and was supporting and funding the terrorst actions that occur not just in the United States but also in the rest of the world. What failed was the United Nations not putting enough restrictions into effect against him. Instead the UN (very politically) helped to ruin the nation of Iraq and make its people hate the United States even more by putting political sanctions against the country, which did little more than strengthen his position. While it was the UN that created and enforced these sanctions, most people see the US as the UN, even though we are not its largest contributors.
Had the UN allowed the United States and our allies to complete our mission in the first gulf war, none of this would be happening now. Instead as soon as it was obvious that Iraq would have no defense against rolling armor collums and we could literally drive right up to Saddam's palaces un-inhibited they declared an end to hostility and ceased all military forces. Thats when the politicians screwed up. They should have forced the issue and forced him to step down then.
Now I openly disagree with the US having gone into the country. There should have been another way. We should have come up with HARD EVIDENCE, not just something joe schmoe said as a reason to invade. We (as in the US) thought he might have some weapons of mass distruction, and to be honest, I still think he does, hidden somewhere. But we should have waited until we had the evidence before launching an all out attack on the entire country. Had we done that, I think more countries would have been interested in joining the United States in removing him from power.
However, again this is all a moot point, because we didnt wait, we are there now without the support of the rest of the world.
So... When countries like (oh i dont know) Spain, get one terrorist attack and then bow out of the coalition in the hopes that they wont get attacked anymore. It pisses me off because they gave us their support they get a bloddy nose and now they back down. That to me is wrong. Unless they are funding terrorism now (which I doubt), they are sending the message that Spain will succumb to terrorism, that is not the right message to send. I expect Spain will recieve more attacks and demands for things like money. Kidnapp a Social dignatary of spain, ask for money theyll pay afterall they folded the last time.
The fact remains that we are in Iraq. Americans are risking their lives for the betterment of the entire world. The average American soldier/sailor/marine doesnt want to die. Especially not in some foreign country figthing for what some to believe is a war for oil. And when I say the betterment of the world thats exactly what I mean. When Bush declared war on terrorist, he was not just talking about Osamma bin Laddin and his cronies, he meant all them fuckers. From the political extreemist there in the middle east to those trying to force 3rd world countries in southest asia to do as they please. Iraq and Aphganistan are the first steps. So long as terrorists exists there will be no peace anywhere.
I agree with Rick, it would be damn irresponsible to pull out now. Someone Im sure we dont want to step into power would, and who knows if they would be better or worse than the previous dictator. It would be nice a few other countries would bite the bullet and help out. To be honest, France really pisses me off. They dont like to admit it, but the United States has pulled French asses out of the fire in at least 3 major wars. Hence the rules of french combat. link to only joke in this post is [URL=http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html]here[/URL]
It looks like Kerry will most likely be our next president, unless some crude floridian intervention happens again, and I think he would like to see us pull out of Iraq, I just hope it does it without fucking over the iraqi people and putting them in a worse position than they were in and making the United States out to be this bungling superpower that drops its dick wherever we want.
Thank you. =)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by SpiritOne [/i]
[B]The only president in US history ever to lose the election yet become president. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's not true. It has happened twice before. There are some good reasons for the Electoral College. I'm sure it will happen again - maybe to a Republican.
Dialogue is fine and all - but sometimes I think you people like playing with fire...
[SIZE=1](psst SpiritOne– I like the sig and all – but I think the moderators still don't allow images in them here.)[/SIZE]
In spite of that I think that not all reasons behind invasion were right, pulling out from there now would be bad.
What's done can't be cancelled. And withdrawing now would make all what's happened pointless.
It would be like after 91-war when Bush senior encouraged kurds to rise against Saddam but then betrayed them by not giving them support and letting Saddam's army to slaughter them.
Iraq leaved alone would propably soon fall to hands of warlords and other extremists, like what happened in Afghanistan after Soviet occupation.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Konrad [/i]
[B][SIZE=1](psst SpiritOne– I like the sig and all – but I think the moderators still don't allow images in them here.)[/SIZE] [/B][/QUOTE]At least it disturbs pretty badly.
...to my mind the US should do what it does best SPEND an enemy to death.
Pull out the grunts and send in the merchant bankers.
The USSR collapsed for basically one reason, it simply could not compete with the US in it's insane spending. They simply couldn't keep up with the technology/arms/cold/fiscal war the US engaged them in. They went bankrupt trying.
So...fly C-130's stuffed with bales of 20 dollar notes over Iraq and drop one or two into every village with more than 6 houses...
..and you watch the fight leave the Iraqi people. 75% of them suddenly wont give a shit about fundamentalism, terrorism etc etc etc.
Give them all jobs, give them bread and roof over themselves and thier families and there wont be a problem.
~~~~
Then all thats left to do is drop a few air/fuel bombs over Israel and Palestine to totally clean the slate there, and we may just have a chance for peace in the middle east...
~~~~
Oh and Striker... I think I could be forgiven for thinking you got your mod powers mostly because you host us so graciously. I've noticed you racheting up the wowserism. The locals are all aging rapidly demographically and correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe the level of maturity here is insanely high anyway for a BBS based upon a Sci-fi series. I don't remember anyone ever being reproachful of us as a group for corrupting minors or in some other way being disrespectful of most social mores...
...we all pretty much self moderate, and we have done long before you appeared.
We fire up, we debate, we flame, we rant...
...we seem to be an idealistic lot.
We ALL love freedom of speech.
Please consider your statements/moderation acutely.
[B]Agreed! Despite not agreeing to the war in the first place I daresay now its been done, things would be hell of a lot worse to pull out now. [/B][/QUOTE]
This is, unfortunately probably true.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by E.T [/i]
[B]
At least it disturbs pretty badly. [/B][/QUOTE]
um, what? Im sorry that sentence just doesnt make a lot of sense.
I suppose no one has ever said anything to me before because in the year or so Ive had this account, Ive only really started posting alot recently.
is there a rule about sigs on these forums, if so, why, bandwidth? the image is linked from my website not this one.
[B]I think the US military should pull out... but not before every man jack Iraqi gets a couple grand a head and most of thier infrastructure back and much better than it was under Saddam...
...to my mind the US should do what it does best SPEND an enemy to death.
Pull out the grunts and send in the merchant bankers.
The USSR collapsed for basically one reason, it simply could not compete with the US in it's insane spending. They simply couldn't keep up with the technology/arms/cold/fiscal war the US engaged them in. They went bankrupt trying.
So...fly C-130's stuffed with bales of 20 dollar notes over Iraq and drop one or two into every village with more than 6 houses...
..and you watch the fight leave the Iraqi people. 75% of them suddenly wont give a shit about fundamentalism, terrorism etc etc etc.
Give them all jobs, give them bread and roof over themselves and thier families and there wont be a problem.
~~~~
Then all thats left to do is drop a few air/fuel bombs over Israel and Palestine to totally clean the slate there, and we may just have a chance for peace in the middle east...
~~~~
Oh and Striker... I think I could be forgiven for thinking you got your mod powers mostly because you host us so graciously. I've noticed you racheting up the wowserism. The locals are all aging rapidly demographically and correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe the level of maturity here is insanely high anyway for a BBS based upon a Sci-fi series. I don't remember anyone ever being reproachful of us as a group for corrupting minors or in some other way being disrespectful of most social mores...
...we all pretty much self moderate, and we have done long before you appeared.
We fire up, we debate, we flame, we rant...
...we seem to be an idealistic lot.
We ALL love freedom of speech.
Please consider your statements/moderation acutely. [/B][/QUOTE]
ok..right...
and every single one of those notes goes to fund the next tyrant. Excellent idea SB. ;)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by SpiritOne [/i]
[B]is there a rule about sigs on these forums, if so, why, bandwidth? the image is linked from my website not this one. [/B][/QUOTE]
In general, there is. Signatures should not be longer (or larger) than 5 lines of text. This is because it gets pointless when people start putting War and Peace in their signature and post something like "LOL", giving you a three letter post followed by a novel. It makes pages unnecessarily large and makes it hard to find the actual improtant content of threads, not just a mass of signatures. We had a small problem with some sigs like this a few years ago.
We also used to not allow images in sigs for a similar reason, but we began allowing them as a concession to the mods forum people when they moved here, and also because we got a board that supported avatars. Most people are happy enough using an avatar and don't feel the need to put an advertising banner beneath every post they make. So long as the image isn't too large or annoying then we won't complain.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Konrad [/i]
[B][SIZE=1](psst SpiritOne– I like the sig and all – but I think the moderators still don't allow images in them here.)[/SIZE] [/B][/QUOTE]
Actually, I believe I said it was OK for some people to use 'em, because the mods forum had used them for a while.
Oh, hey, biggles said it already :D
[B]
Oh and Striker... I think I could be forgiven for thinking you got your mod powers mostly because you host us so graciously. I've noticed you racheting up the wowserism. The locals are all aging rapidly demographically and correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe the level of maturity here is insanely high anyway for a BBS based upon a Sci-fi series. I don't remember anyone ever being reproachful of us as a group for corrupting minors or in some other way being disrespectful of most social mores...
...we all pretty much self moderate, and we have done long before you appeared.
We fire up, we debate, we flame, we rant...
...we seem to be an idealistic lot.
We ALL love freedom of speech.
Please consider your statements/moderation acutely. [/B][/QUOTE]
*blinks*
I'm not sure I understand any of that... :D
I was just giving fair warning to everyone not to jump off the deep end. Consider it a pre-emptive strike. :) Too many political threads on this forum have "gone off course" and people have gotten quite angry in them so I was reminding everyone to keep it civil and not to personally attack anyone. Obviously you don't remember what happened about 4 months ago with Biggles.
I was not encroaching on your freedom of speech as you put it. I did not single anyone out, I did not delete anything, but I'm making a friendly reminder that we're all nice people and there's no need to get pushy or resort to name calling. =)
...and what exactly does "racheting up the wowserism" mean??
I have mod powers because Sanfam trusts me. I am not going to apologize for doing my job. If you disagree with something I do, then please feel free to use the Private Message function and we can discuss it. No need to drag it out into the open. :)
and vert....thats a silly reason. Does your friend want out?
...it was a so called pre-emptive strike that got everyone into the IRAQ mess.
[B]A damn good friend of mine is right in the middle of things. Of course I want the US to pull out. [/B][/QUOTE]
I can understand your point, I might feel the same if I knew of someone, however you also have to look at the whole picture,
And remind yourself that he wasn't forced into the army. In the army you have to be prepared for things like this, thats why its gruelling training. I know its not nice though! And I hope they pull through. :)
[B]ok then Striker... stop making me feel like youre holding everyones hand... we dont need pre-emptive strikes... and how symetrical the universe is sometimes...
...it was a so called pre-emptive strike that got everyone into the IRAQ mess. [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not holding anyone's hand. I was reminding people not to take comments personally and to be polite. I'm sorry you see it that way, but I can't change how you feel. I was doing my job and I've got full support from the other admins on the matter.
Now, this thread has gone off course enough. SB, if you've got any more comments, suggestions, etc that you want to address to me, then please use the Private Message function built into the message board.
I consider this matter now closed. Thanks! :D
If the place is awash with cash, everyone has a job and a place to live, you're destroying a warlords powerbase. Warlords require soldiers to press gang conscripts. They can't do that when thier soldiers all have nice comfy well paid jobs where they dont get shot at. Even religious zealots have trouble raising trouble when everyone has a full belly.
Put it this way, the only reason there hasn't been a humungus and perhaps bloody revolution in the US is because the vast majority of US citizens are comfy, thier telly is still on, there's beer in the fridge and a steak on the BBQ.
~~~~~
Not even a dictator will cut his own fiscal throat. If Iraq cant sell its oil then it's basically back to feudalism with no replacement arms and equipment. i'm sure they'll go back to slitting each others throats but they are not likely to destroy thier major source of income.
~~~~~
@ the mods *pllththththb* :P
[B]and vert....thats a silly reason. Does your friend want out? [/B][/QUOTE]
Its a silly reason that I want my friend to come back in one piece?
MartianDust: He's in the marines honey. ;)
Marines/army same thing in the point I was trying to make, Sugar pie. :p
[B]
Marines/army same thing in the point I was trying to make, [/B][/QUOTE]
Oh good lord know. I know you just meant in general, but not the same and please dont compare, very different missions.
If the army with its 1 Million+ soldiers is Americas blunt sword, the US Marine corps is a precision arrow. First off you need to understand that at any given time there are only 175,000 US Marines on active duty. Thats a very small amount for an armed service. Yet the world over, the title US Marine brings forth feeling of fear from our enemies and hope for our allies.
The Germans nicknamed the marine Teufel Hund (sp) or Devil Dog in WWII for the fierceness with which they faught. Throughout history, the Marine Corps has the led the attack in just about every major engagement America has faught. In fact, it is the oldest fighting service in the United States, predating the actual commision of the US Army and the US Navy. The Marine Corps' first amphibious assult was done during the war for American independence against a British fort in the Bahamas. To top it off, only one time in the entire history of the Marines has a marine unit ever surrendered. And that one time was under the command of an Army General in the phillipines at the start of WWII.
It was a young Marine Lt, by the name of Presely O'Bannon that stormed Tripoli and was awarded the sword of the Prince of Lebanon. That model sword is still used today as the sword carried by all Marine Corps officers. US Marine Corps non Commisioned officers are the only NCO's in the American armed forces still authorized to carry a sword. I will post a picture of mine tomorrow.
It was American Marines that stormed Mexico and captured the capitol during the US/Mexican war. American Marines that protected the American Embassy in China during the Boxer rebellion. In fact, US Marines are the only service that protects American Embassies. US Marines fly the President in Marine 1, the Helicopter.
In general, Marines take a lot of pride in themselves and the corps, more so than the average soldier. This is not to say the Army is full of idiots that cannot accomplish anything or dont take pride in themselves or the Army. But the Army does not teach its history as well the Marines, and its difficult for soldiers to learn without having thier own initiative. And again, give credit where credit is due. The US Army is a powerfull fighting force, and soldiers are well trained, sometimes. Its hard to overlook situations where American Soldiers have been taken prisoner, either recently in War for oil part 2, of in Bosnia. True they were outnumbered, however they had firepower and a radio. A radio that cannot be jammed because it uses frequency hopping technology. Both of those instances should have ended with a business end of an artillery shell. Instead we hear about US Soldiers being captured.
The most important philosophy in the Marine Corps is every Marine is a rifleman. Every Marine will know basic combat techniques, from being an expert marksman, knowing land navigation, knowing how to call for aritllery and hand to hand combat.
Again, the US Army is not a bad organization. But they are not the United States Marines.
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