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The 2 final episodes
MartianDust
Elite Ranger
in Babylon 5
I've just seen the last 2 final episodes of B5. This was a big moment for me because I first watched this prog 4-5yrs ago and watched them in 3-4 months apart from the last few eps which at that time I couldn't bring myself to I think because I hadn't been watching over enough length of time. I wasn't ready for the lights to go out.
Firstly I was shocked of Lenniers betrayal! I knew he would but I didn't know what and am wondering whether he'd set the whole thing up or whether when he saw Sheridan he intended on leaving him. Of course he had a change of heart. I personally think he set the whole thing up, but would like to know for sure.
Was also surprised that Delenn and Sheridans son wasn't in it at all. I know Sheridan said why.
I also though that Sheridan would die in Delenns arms! So that again surprised me abit.
But the bit that upset me the most was when they shut down the station and dear JMS (who I knew was going to do this) switched out the lights and the station blowing up. Dunno, just him physically closing the last chapter really got to me. And not only the images but the music was absolutely fantastic! (downloading it now hopefully the right track!) So moving.
Oh and I loved the fact that they didn't have credits in the beginning. Just little things like that, that Joe done for the series is just great! I don't think anyone else has made such an effort with a series as he has. But feel free to prove me wrong. ;)
Oh yeah and one last thing.........what did happen between Lyta and Garibaldi? Did they meet in those 2yrs? Did he meet her bargain and did she free his mind block?! And Bester??
I know this is probably all old news to you now and you probably discussed this yrs ago but I'd love to know some answers and your thoughts. :)
Firstly I was shocked of Lenniers betrayal! I knew he would but I didn't know what and am wondering whether he'd set the whole thing up or whether when he saw Sheridan he intended on leaving him. Of course he had a change of heart. I personally think he set the whole thing up, but would like to know for sure.
Was also surprised that Delenn and Sheridans son wasn't in it at all. I know Sheridan said why.
I also though that Sheridan would die in Delenns arms! So that again surprised me abit.
But the bit that upset me the most was when they shut down the station and dear JMS (who I knew was going to do this) switched out the lights and the station blowing up. Dunno, just him physically closing the last chapter really got to me. And not only the images but the music was absolutely fantastic! (downloading it now hopefully the right track!) So moving.
Oh and I loved the fact that they didn't have credits in the beginning. Just little things like that, that Joe done for the series is just great! I don't think anyone else has made such an effort with a series as he has. But feel free to prove me wrong. ;)
Oh yeah and one last thing.........what did happen between Lyta and Garibaldi? Did they meet in those 2yrs? Did he meet her bargain and did she free his mind block?! And Bester??
I know this is probably all old news to you now and you probably discussed this yrs ago but I'd love to know some answers and your thoughts. :)
Comments
Eh, I'm pretty sure that the coolant leak was just a random malfunction, and Lennier just happened to be there to make his really bad decision.
[quote]Oh yeah and one last thing.........what did happen between Lyta and Garibaldi? Did they meet in those 2yrs? Did he meet her bargain and did she free his mind block?! And Bester??
[/quote]
There is closure to this storyline in the Psi Corps trilogy of books. They're all pretty good, and I highly recommend them. By the end of the trilogy, you have a LOT more info on Bester, as well as closure regarding him and Garabaldi, as well as a little more info on the Telepath War, as well as what ended up happening to Carolyn. You also somewhat find out what happened to Lyta, but not in a whole lot of detail.
Some of the other B5 books are definitely worth checking out, as well...
The Shadow Within: Takes place around the time that B5 went online. The story follows Anna Sheridan's trip to Z'Ha'Dum, as well as what John was up to on the Agamemnon. It's a pretty good read, and casts a certain character in a slightly different light by the end, but there aren't any huge plot threads tied up like there are in the Psi Corps books, just some interesting backstory.
To Dream in the City of Sorrows: Follows Sinclair between the time he was assigned to Minbar to the events of War Without End. There's a little more tying up of loose ends here, and some neat ties to the series. You also find out what happened to another side character from the series.
There's also the Centauri Prime trilogy and the Technomage trilogy, which I haven't read yet. From what I've heard, the three trilogies, as well as the two standalones I listed are th only ones worth reading.
I had no idea that the Psi Corps trilogy covered this. I have been thinking of getting these as there aren't many left.
Am curious now as whether JMS had any say on any of the books? Or did he leave the authors to their own conclusions on filling in the gaps?
Since I now completed B5 I will definitely have to get some books to fill in the gaps.
Will have to watch Crusade too.
:)
Oh I was glad to see Ivanova again. That was unexpected for me. So glad I avoided some spoilers at the time!
and no matter what ANYONE says, I stubbornly refuse to accept SiL as the end of B5. That special place is reserved for "Deconstruction of Falling Stars"
Brother Michael! :D
BTW, I'm selling the Technomage trilagy, which ties up some interesting stuff with the mages, for $25 US. 10% goes to firstones!
I accept PayPal. :D
and sorry Dust, I agree that Lennier did not engineer the accident, but rather made the wrong decision.
[B]and no matter what ANYONE says, I stubbornly refuse to accept SiL as the end of B5. That special place is reserved for "Deconstruction of Falling Stars"
[/B][/QUOTE]
BAH! SiL is the true ending. "Deconstruction of Falling Stars" leaves so much open what happen to B5 itself, sure it shows you how it turn out for human kind but SiL makes totaly clear that it's the end of Babylon 5.
[/quote]
Well, at least one of the books in the Psi Corps trilogy (the only one I've got within reach at the moment) was based on an outline by JMS, and in the beginning of To Dream in the City of Sorrows, he wrote that it can pretty much be considered canon.
I imagine that the same goes for the other books I mentioned. Not sure about the rest of the books, though.
[quote]Speaking of Lyta...G'Kar mentioned her briefly in Legend of Rangers, but it was a rather ambiguous statement as to her whereabouts...anyone have any light to shed on that?
[/quote]
SPOILER for the last book in the Psi Corps trilogy...
She's alluded to at a few points in the book. Basically, it's implied that:
- She was a big player in the Telepath War, on the side of the rogues.
- She was at least partly responsible in taking out the Psi Corps facility where Carolyn was kept in stasis (no mention of the other frozen telepaths, though).
- Her powers kept increasing after we saw her last. Garabaldi referrs to her as "scary as hell there at the end", or something along those lines.
- Judging by the above Garabaldi quote, it's quite likely that she died.
What I really want to know is what ended up happening to Lennier after Objects at Rest? Between Morden implying that he was going to die soon, to Delenn's toast in SiL, it seems pretty certain that he died, but under what circumstances? Is it covered in any of the books?
I'm reading the Centauri Trilogy at the moment and am enjoying it loads. Well worth reading for sure! I think I've paid a total of 18p for the books (6p each, total 32 cents in US $), thanks to a promotion with Kelloggs cereals and Amazon.co.uk! Wooohooo for me!!! :D I might be able to get the Technomage Trilogy next but the promotion has ended now so boxes with the codes are running out fast... must eat more cereal!!!! :p
Things learned from SiL:
Spoiler: EA is a moron for blowing up 500,000,000 tonns of metal, rather then scrapping it / putting it to another use.
sheridan is taken beyond the rim. woo woo
Ivonova became a general...wait, we knew that from before..
delenn loved sheridan...wait. we knew that...
in other words...we learned NOTHING.
It was designed to be a freaking sob fest, answer nothing, and worst of all, it made it seem the universe DIED with B5 and Sheridan.
DoFS on the other hand...
We learn that the alliance setup by Sheridan actually lasted, maybe known, but now we know dates
we learned earth was blown to the stone age by mars, and that the rangers are helping to reform earth
we see what happens to the human race millions of years in the future.
And best of all, it showed that while B5 was gone, the universe continued.
If there was ONE message B5 taught us in five years, it was that "Faith Manages". SiL thrashed that message, shewed it up, spat it out, then ran over it for good measure.
"Faith Manages" Sheridan died 40 years ahead of the average life span..
"Faith manages" B5 was destroyed "because it looked pretty blowing it up"
"Faith manages" ...but don't expect anything.
DoFS however, showed that faith DOES manage.
Not only that, but as far as blowing the station up vs salvaging it goes, keep in mind that by this point, even having a station that rotates to produce gravity is going to seem archaic by earth standards. I'm sure some of systems of the station (weapons, environmental controls, etc) were upgraded, and it's entirely possible that those WERE salvaged before the station was decomissioned. The bulk of the station would have been just so much scrap metal, and probably more trouble than its worth to salvage.
just stating my honest view of the episode...
maybe one day I'll write a fan fic of how I think the series should have ended...
I'll prolly be the only one ro read it, but hey. :D
[B]What I always wondered is why they left all the air inside. I mean, jeeze, is air so plentiful in the Babylon 5 universe that they can go around venting cubic miles of the stuff into space? [/B][/QUOTE]
Oxygen to power the explosions maybe? Or the fact that trying to pump it out would take a long time. I'm sure they would have removed anything left in storage, but getting it out of the core would be difficult.
[B]Oxygen to power the explosions maybe? Or the fact that trying to pump it out would take a long time. I'm sure they would have removed anything left in storage, but getting it out of the core would be difficult. [/B][/QUOTE]
Heck, how difficult could it be in space? just open the door;-) WOOSH there goes the air:-)
[B]the centauri trilagy covers what happens to Sheridans son.[/B][/QUOTE]
Really? Great!
[QUOTE][B]in other words...we learned NOTHING.
It was designed to be a freaking sob fest, answer nothing, and worst of all, it made it seem the universe DIED with B5 and Sheridan. [/B][/QUOTE]
Oh you're so wrong! Can't believe you said that. True is very sad I'll give you that! :) But I thought it was nice to see how the characters were doing 20 yrs later. Nice to see Garibaldi was still with Lisa and had a daughter.
And it did end the story with B5 being blown up. Least it did for me. That was the part I was most dreading.
But then you see Ivanova working for Delenn and she says about creating a new beginning so its far from the end in that sense.
But I do see an opening for another B5 with David their son. Was it left open incase JMS made another series? I mean Londo in Objects at rest came to Minbar and left one of those things that would be awoke I guess at a certain point in yrs to come. I really think this would have been great as a start to a new kind of B5 instead of Crusade, not that I can really say anything about that having not seen it yet. But I wondered what the point was if nothing were to be told of it? Well apart from books if it were told in this format. But JMS can't have known it would at the time.
[QUOTE][B]
Not every episode has to be some ground breaking revealing of stuff. Sleeping in Light was really more of just an epilogue, and a farewell to the remaining characters. So what if we didn't "learn" anything new? The series is about the station and the people within it, so it should be fitting that it should end with the station's end, as well as the final hours of it's (presumably) most influential captian.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Totally agree! :) And even with my high expectations the final didn't fail to disappoint. Far from it! A great but sad ending which makes it more special. Happy endings all the time are not always the best thing either. Less memorable. I wish more things were like it today.
[QUOTE][B]and sorry Dust, I agree that Lennier did not engineer the accident, but rather made the wrong decision. [/B][/QUOTE]
Don't apologise! Am glad that it is that and I was wrong. I still never dreamed he would do that though. :)
[QUOTE][B]
Well, at least one of the books in the Psi Corps trilogy (the only one I've got within reach at the moment) was based on an outline by JMS, and in the beginning of To Dream in the City of Sorrows, he wrote that it can pretty much be considered canon.
I imagine that the same goes for the other books I mentioned. Not sure about the rest of the books, though.
[/QUOTE][/B]
Ok thanks! Btw anyone read "The Coming of the Shadows by JMS? I not read it all, but I love the bit about the choccy bar and how guilty he felt and what he did about it. Bless!
Oh and A2597, I'd read your fanfic cos I'd be curious as to how you would change it.
As for the station, you must know that they had to blow it up for better effects never mind practicalities! ;)
[B]But I do see an opening for another B5 with David their son. Was it left open incase JMS made another series? I mean Londo in Objects at rest came to Minbar and left one of those things that would be awoke I guess at a certain point in yrs to come. I really think this would have been great as a start to a new kind of B5 instead of Crusade, not that I can really say anything about that having not seen it yet. But I wondered what the point was if nothing were to be told of it? Well apart from books if it were told in this format. But JMS can't have known it would at the time.[/B][/QUOTE]
As I recall, what happens to David is the subject of one of the Legions of Fire books (the Centauri trilogy)
Some spoilers from Centauri Trilagy
Spoiler:
of course, it takes place after Vir became emporor, and the drakh are on the move again, far from compleatly destroyed, the drakh mass another offencive. This is where is starts, following a drakh leader (There has to be some kind of heirarchy). Their first target: The still running Babylon 5.
Sheridans time is rapidly coming to an end. The little get together would still happen, so we would see Garibaldi, and the rest there. But at the end of the dinner, a message comes through on ISN / some other channel, the drakh fleet is on the move. Their current path takes them past Babylon 5, which still runs as a meeting place for some disputes between species, but has not been getting much use lately. Sheridan dicides to mount a defencive there, and takes a Bluestar directly to Babylon 5, while Delenn contacts leaders of the major races to get as many ships to Epsilon 3 as possible. (Including a nice chat with Emporor Vir. ;) )
Sheridan arrives at Babylon 5, runs into Zach (Without the limp...:rolleyes: ) and mounts his defence. Babylon five has had some small advances in weapondry, but not much. Mainly the defences are more automated, allowing a small number of people to operate the defence system.
The fleet draws nearer to Babylon 5, and Zach tries to get Sheridan to leave, let him handle it, etc. When Sheridan tells him he's dead anyway, and wan't to go out in a fight, not sitting down.
The drakh fleet arrives, massive fight, Babylon 5 holding the fleet at bay as long as possible, but it's a losing battle. Finally the main Drakh cruiser (Some new battleship) gets a shot off at the dieing Babylon 5, and we watch it blow sky high. At this exact moment the main fleet arrives, led by Delenn (Of course. :cool:) cut to Sheridan in C&C, where it is compleatly quiet after the raor of the explosion..time stands almost still...and Lorien behind him.
some talk about trying to escape destiny, blah blah...Lorien starts to take him beyond the rim ala how it happened in SiL, but sheidan ask to see the outcome of the battle. Lorien agrees, sheridan and lorien watch from loriens "ship" or whatever, as the battle ensues.
switch to delenn, just as this ships jump out, and a different shot of Babylon five being destoryed. After a moment of shock, she orders the attack, and the battle ensues, obliterating the drakh fleet before they retreat. Delenn slumps into her chair, as the realization that Sheridan was on B5 sinks in, and as she looks at the debrie of the station, she notices a faint light where C&C was, which flashes out in a manner simular to the warp effect in star trek (The cool strech into the distance thing)
fade to black, and cut to the ending with delenn watching the sunset. Basically the same ending really.
fade to black and credits.
of course, HIGHLY unrefined, would need to explain further WHY the drakh went back on the offencive, why they went to B5, etc. Personal attack on Sheridan before he dies? something or other...but that would do it for me. B5 going down in a fight, not put to sleep. Sheridan going down in battle, like I think he would....while at the same time keeping the information of where people are in the future, and that the ISA held strong.
As I said, unrefined, but gives you a basic idea...
[B]Sorry A2597, but SiL is simply far superior without battles than it could ever have been with them, no matter what justification there could have been. SiL is near perfect as it stands (though it could do with slightly less exposition). [/B][/QUOTE]
see, I disagree that is was perfect...I mean, I hate the ep. (As if I haven't made that absolutly clear..LOL) Everyones entitled to their opinion, and I'm not trying to get other people to dislike the ep, I'm just posting my views on it, and why I don't like it. :cool:
[B]see, I disagree that is was perfect...I mean, I hate the ep. (As if I haven't made that absolutly clear..LOL) Everyones entitled to their opinion, and I'm not trying to get other people to dislike the ep, I'm just posting my views on it, and why I don't like it. :cool: [/B][/QUOTE]
I liked your version, and I can understand that for you personally you would've preferred a battle scene. But am still going to disagree with you and say SIL was the best thing since sliced bread, well no better lol. ;)
But I have seen similar scenarios with your storylines with ppl dying and going out in the battlefield cos they got nothing to lose. For instance 24 the guy who got radiation and was going to die flew the plane with bomb out into the desert saving Keifer(Keither?) from doing it. I can't remember his name the guy that got the radiation but close followers will know who I mean, no doubt. :)
I dunno I think Sheridan died gracefully.
And the shut down of B5 was realistic in a way (thinking of Hubble). But I would also have liked Sheridan to have died in Delenns arms, that is what I thought was going to happen. I felt he was wrong to go, but had to respect him for it at the same time. And if I think like that in a prog then its done its job for me personally. It really plucked at my heart strings in several ways. And again when Joe switched off the lights, I kinda disliked him for doing it but again respected him. And i think that it can't actually have been easy to do something like that?! I know its a show but I've never ever known a writer to physically be seen on show and do something like that. I am in awe even more with JMS now! :)
However I have one minor complaint/question. That it didnt show Londo and G'kar as I thought it would. What happened to the prophecy that Londo kept seeing before? I was hoping that since Londo had been taken over by the Drakh that G'kar would've visited him and they would've ended up at each other throats.
[QUOTE][B]To be honest, while i think that would be a cool way to go as it were, i cant really picture sheridan going any other way than he did in SiL. To me, going like he did (unafraid of death and all) was to me more impressive/awe inspiring/noble than just going out in battle. besides, his passing wouldnt have generated that mistique of him just vanishing if he'd gone out in a blaze of glory in battle[/B][/QUOTE]
No I think he was afraid to die, I could see it in his face and eyes when he hugged Delenn goodbye. Afraid to leave her too. *sigh* I need a sad face with tear rolling down cheek. I think I could watch the final 20x.
:)
[B]However I have one minor complaint/question. That it didnt show Londo and G'kar as I thought it would. What happened to the prophecy that Londo kept seeing before? I was hoping that since Londo had been taken over by the Drakh that G'kar would've visited him and they would've ended up at each other throats.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Season 3, 'War without End pt. 2'...therein lies your answer to that question:-)
[B]For instance 24 the guy who got radiation and was going to die flew the plane with bomb out into the desert saving Keifer(Keither?) from doing it. I can't remember his name the guy that got the radiation but close followers will know who I mean, no doubt. :)[/B][/QUOTE]
George Mason is that character who got exposed to plutonium and actor is Xander Berkeley.
And that other actor's name is Kiefer Sutherland (character is Jack Bauer), that can't be so hard name to remember. ;)
Serie is just running here in Filnand.
I don't think that SiL could have been more impressive, at least from story's point.
I don't really like your version, A#. B5 wasn't about people going out in a blaze of glory, nor the station going out in a blaze of glory. I much prefer the graceful endings of SiL.