Issues with your account? Bug us in the Discord!
Head butting doorframes
shadow boxer
The Finger Painter & Master Ranter
in Zocalo v2.0
I hit it nice and centrally, I think it was pine, or maybe nice old Oregon, thin timber, probably a 1/4 inch thick. I felt and heard it split mightily... longditudinally along the grain probably about a foot either side of where my head connected with it. I'm guessing but I'd say it deflected about an inch, I'm not sure but I think it may have bottomed out against the inner door jamb.
Terribly satisfying.
Why ? Well I had another cycle of the endless arguement I've had with my parents and in all truth, the rest of the world for the last 10 years or more. I'm different. On a very deep psychological level I'm an individual. I'm a creative, chaotic, left brained, lateral thinker... there are another forty or so adjectives to use in there but they all ammount to the same.
Society has extremely sparse support for people like myself. It makes sense really, society is by natural and righteous default built to suit the majority. The concrete, logical, hard numbers, day to day, 9 to 5, suburban, urbane, 'normal' person.
I'm not 'normal'. In fact 'normal' is about on par with paedophile, psychopathic killer, terrorist as far as 'words to describe people with'. I've been stomped on so many times by a society which wont accept me that I can tell you the sprig pattern and make of the boots that land on my back. I am accutely aware of when someone or something is trying to force me into a pidgeon hole, into a role I know I cant fulfill. I dont even get within eyesight of them anymore. I'm already shredding and backbiting the hand that wants to 'guide' me into them. They wonder where all the violent oppositon comes from, why my response seems incredibly dissproportionate to the action they are taking. I guess it's like the grunts in the jungles of Vietnam, you don't need much stimulus to turn and pump a full clip into it, just to be sure. You empty the first clip before you have time to think about it. The best defense is an immediate and decisive offense.
I've tried kowtowing to societies norms, thier idea of what a 'valuable and worthwhile' person is. But as Kiersey puts it... it's like a fox trying to teach a beaver how to catch and eat chickens.
Being 'normal' is no crime, I accept that. The world would be destroyed faster than an asteroid strike if people like myself ran the world. Chaos would ensue and we'd be pretty much fucked as a race. Instant obliteration. Well worth guarding against by keeping people like me out of most of the day to day running of the world in general. That's cool. Makes perfect sense and I have absolutely ZERO problem with that. I appreciate the people who do work 'in the salt mines' for my benefit and the rest of the world.... but....
If you totally eliminate me, and my cohorts from the great machine... the destruction wont be an overnight thing, it will be much slower... the place will stagnate, there will be no-one to ask questions, no-one to instigate change, no-one to give long term direction.... and we as a race will go round in circles until we dissapear up our own butts. It will be all too late when the concrete thinkers realise that some problems just cannot be solved by slow methodical grinding away. Sometimes only a leap of faith will make the difference, which is something your average engineer just flat out wont do... because deep down they know thier minds just cant do it.
In short
Abstract thinkers = you precious few, I love you and I will fight alongside you until we finally gain acceptance for whom we are from the motherfuckers below.
Concrete thinkers = fuck you, you all suck and I hate you... live with it.... stop trying to get your feeble minds around whom I am and accept it, without understanding it, without being able to quantify me , box me, frame me or laying me on a grid. You wont win, you wont ever be able to make me totally and utterly tangible. I am quicksilver, I am a son of Mercury, I am that which cannot ever be totally defined.
(this is what happens when you get a fusion of Idealist Champion and Rational Inventor )
sigh......
Terribly satisfying.
Why ? Well I had another cycle of the endless arguement I've had with my parents and in all truth, the rest of the world for the last 10 years or more. I'm different. On a very deep psychological level I'm an individual. I'm a creative, chaotic, left brained, lateral thinker... there are another forty or so adjectives to use in there but they all ammount to the same.
Society has extremely sparse support for people like myself. It makes sense really, society is by natural and righteous default built to suit the majority. The concrete, logical, hard numbers, day to day, 9 to 5, suburban, urbane, 'normal' person.
I'm not 'normal'. In fact 'normal' is about on par with paedophile, psychopathic killer, terrorist as far as 'words to describe people with'. I've been stomped on so many times by a society which wont accept me that I can tell you the sprig pattern and make of the boots that land on my back. I am accutely aware of when someone or something is trying to force me into a pidgeon hole, into a role I know I cant fulfill. I dont even get within eyesight of them anymore. I'm already shredding and backbiting the hand that wants to 'guide' me into them. They wonder where all the violent oppositon comes from, why my response seems incredibly dissproportionate to the action they are taking. I guess it's like the grunts in the jungles of Vietnam, you don't need much stimulus to turn and pump a full clip into it, just to be sure. You empty the first clip before you have time to think about it. The best defense is an immediate and decisive offense.
I've tried kowtowing to societies norms, thier idea of what a 'valuable and worthwhile' person is. But as Kiersey puts it... it's like a fox trying to teach a beaver how to catch and eat chickens.
Being 'normal' is no crime, I accept that. The world would be destroyed faster than an asteroid strike if people like myself ran the world. Chaos would ensue and we'd be pretty much fucked as a race. Instant obliteration. Well worth guarding against by keeping people like me out of most of the day to day running of the world in general. That's cool. Makes perfect sense and I have absolutely ZERO problem with that. I appreciate the people who do work 'in the salt mines' for my benefit and the rest of the world.... but....
If you totally eliminate me, and my cohorts from the great machine... the destruction wont be an overnight thing, it will be much slower... the place will stagnate, there will be no-one to ask questions, no-one to instigate change, no-one to give long term direction.... and we as a race will go round in circles until we dissapear up our own butts. It will be all too late when the concrete thinkers realise that some problems just cannot be solved by slow methodical grinding away. Sometimes only a leap of faith will make the difference, which is something your average engineer just flat out wont do... because deep down they know thier minds just cant do it.
In short
Abstract thinkers = you precious few, I love you and I will fight alongside you until we finally gain acceptance for whom we are from the motherfuckers below.
Concrete thinkers = fuck you, you all suck and I hate you... live with it.... stop trying to get your feeble minds around whom I am and accept it, without understanding it, without being able to quantify me , box me, frame me or laying me on a grid. You wont win, you wont ever be able to make me totally and utterly tangible. I am quicksilver, I am a son of Mercury, I am that which cannot ever be totally defined.
(this is what happens when you get a fusion of Idealist Champion and Rational Inventor )
sigh......
Comments
1. Yes you are important, and yes your are needed...
2. I just don't need you right now...
(kidding of course)
;)
Is that like being Over Qualified?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by shadow boxer [/i]
[B]Concrete thinkers = fuck you, you all suck and I hate you[/B][/QUOTE]
In most cases I would advocate at least attempted articulation, but I think that just about sums it up.
And maybe it's just because I've missed two days of school now on account of my head being caught in a continuous cycle of implosion/explosion, but I really can't think of anything intelligent to say.
but more like being qualified as a Rocket Scientist and get rejected at Walmart as a shelf stocker...
I'm suprised that more FO's havent chimed in, this place always seems to be a very 'abstract thinker' rich kind of place...
...heh... cycling head implosion/explosion... ow.... are we talking migraines here or 'thinking oneself into a quantum singularity' ?
[QUOTE][B]I'm not 'normal'. In fact 'normal' is about on par with paedophile, psychopathic killer, terrorist as far as 'words to describe people with'. I've been stomped on so many times by a society which wont accept me that I can tell you the sprig pattern and make of the boots that land on my back.[/B][/QUOTE]
Am probably totally wrong here but I hope you're not or wasn't physically abused.
You make it sound as if "abstract thinkers", as you put it, are some sort of underground righteous rebel society who's being oppressed by the evil "logical thinkers" who are out to get you.
No one is out to eliminate you.
Abstract thought isn't some burden that has been bestowed upon only a few people like some gift of telekenesis or mutant power.
The capacity for abstract thought is present in most people. It's just that some people are not taught to practice abstract thought.
You're not a mutant, or a social outcast. At least not because of others.
The part about engineers being incapable of abstract thought or "leaps of faith" is, quite frankly, a load of dingo's kidneys. It's an attempt to set yourself up as unique to the rest of the world. Engineers are encouraged to think abstractly. Abstract thought is important in engineering and design just as in art. Sure, some people seem to find it difficult to think abstractly, but to say that engineers' "minds just can't do it" is just crap.
This idea that "abstract thinkers" are some persecuted highly evolved species of human is just a way to justify things like social awkwardness. It's an excuse, just like "you just don't understand me!" -- a phrase that has been uttered by "misunderstood" teens for decades.
If your parents (or others) for some reason don't accept you (whatever THAT means), that's their problem. But it doesn't mean that society is out to get you or bring you down.
Just about everything you said in your first post has been uttered in countless goth blogs, forum rants and diaries for years. It's nothing new, and it's nothing extraordinary.
People have told me I'm weird and different, and I'm probably fairly normal by most standards. Everybody has their quirks. Everybody gets stepped on now and then. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and carry on.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by shadow boxer [/i]
[B]It will be all too late when the concrete thinkers realise that some problems just cannot be solved by slow methodical grinding away. Sometimes only a leap of faith will make the difference, which is something your average engineer just flat out wont do... because deep down they know thier minds just cant do it.[/B][/QUOTE]
Tell you what. You spend 4 years going through hell and get yourself an engineering degree, then I'll consider you capable of talking about what engineers and their minds can and can't do. For 4 years one of the most important things they kept teaching us over and over again was to think abstractly and think outside the box to come up with better solutions to problems. Engineers are responsible for a fair chunk of the innovative things in the modern world, and we're more than capable of thinking abstractly. Leaps of faith featured in every single 4th year project in my class. "I wonder if this will work... seems like it won't, but it definitely won't kill it so I'll try it and see what happens."
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Biggles [/i]
[B]Tell you what. You spend 4 years going through hell and get yourself an engineering degree, then I'll consider you capable of talking about what engineers and their minds can and can't do. For 4 years one of the most important things they kept teaching us over and over again was to think abstractly and think outside the box to come up with better solutions to problems. Engineers are responsible for a fair chunk of the innovative things in the modern world, and we're more than capable of thinking abstractly. Leaps of faith featured in every single 4th year project in my class. "I wonder if this will work... seems like it won't, but it definitely won't kill it so I'll try it and see what happens." [/B][/QUOTE]
Biggles hit the nail on the proverbial head.
My engineering degree is borne not just from logical structured thinking, but from abstract free-form thought as well.
Some of the most beautiful abstract structures in the world were created by engineers.
The best engineers are also artists in some way. It's one thing to build a bridge, or to build a piece of art. It's another to build a bridge that [i]is[/i] a piece of art.
I know engineers who are capable of producing some pretty good abstract art, and I know artists who are quite good at engineering. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
... its rantage...
a rational dissection of it is pointless seeing as there is little rational basis with which to work
yes this is an ancient conundrum...
the abstract versus the stone
neither is inherently bad, nor good.
Just trust me... there are ALOT of stone thinkers out there whom do not share your ability and acceptance of the value of the abstract and chaotic...
...if the rantage is directed at anyone, its those people who willfully or simply dont have the capacity to see beyond the square.
[B]its those people who willfully or simply dont have the capacity to see beyond the square. [/B][/QUOTE]
You mean that square they're trying to jam through round hole? :p
(Like watching few I know trying to use computer :D)
[B]fellas...
... its rantage...[/B][/QUOTE]
So basically you're saying that everything you "ranted" about should be considered absolutely rubbish and that noone, not even yourself, should believe it?
Yes, there are people who follow the safe, risk free path. But saying that all engineers are among them is completely wrong and insulting, even in a rant. Even ranters at least stick to saying what they believe. If you don't, that's not ranting, that's trolling, and trolls arn't welcome here.
'average engineer'...
sorry... my liberal and general use of the language, rather than technical and precise..:D
in my book =
engineer, stone thinker, concrete thinker, hyperfactual, pedant,blockhead, bonehead, static person.
all interchangable terms...
like :
airhead,arty farty, chaotic, left field, radical, et al....are all pretty much interchangable
no one even thinks about the fuzzy thinkers....
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by samuelk [/i]
[B]My engineering degree is borne not just from logical structured thinking, but from abstract free-form thought as well.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Just as in the rest of life there are those who exceed at working "outside the box" and those that have a hard time doing so. Having worked in product development, I have met engineers that sit on both sides. Those that do think outside the box are fun to work with, but they have to be brought back to earth from time to time. The other ilk, those who have a hard time seeing the world outside their cube, aren't near as much fun to work with, but their designs are often more purposeful. If you combine the two personalities on a project team, you now have a force to be reckoned with, though you may need to do some bridge building between the two (No matter what the type, I've found many engineers to be very proud of their designs).
Getting back to your points SB...I am by no means a radical thinker, nor do I think in very abstract manners, but I have a very, very deep appreciation for those that do. The artists, writers, industrial designers, scientists, physicists, engineers, architects, scholars, movie directors who truly see more in a structure, object or story than I do. Know that there are people in this world that think this way gives me a greater sense of peace, because it means there is an opportunity for us all to live better.
Jake
*bows with respect*
your eloquence and articulation of the truth are much appreciated
Migraines. And I'm missing my third day in a row as we speak, this time because I just generally feel like shit, having not done or eaten anything substantial for two days.
[quote]This idea that "abstract thinkers" are some persecuted highly evolved species of human is just a way to justify things like social awkwardness. It's an excuse, just like "you just don't understand me!" -- a phrase that has been uttered by "misunderstood" teens for decades.
If your parents (or others) for some reason don't accept you (whatever THAT means), that's their problem. But it doesn't mean that society is out to get you or bring you down.
Just about everything you said in your first post has been uttered in countless goth blogs, forum rants and diaries for years. It's nothing new, and it's nothing extraordinary.[/quote]
The extent of my knowledge in the field of engineering begins and ends with how to spell the term 'engineer,' so I won't chime in on the subject, but I do understand where he's coming from. Ever since I first began attending school at the age of four, I've been pressured from all sides to be normal, to fit in with everyone else, to think inside the box. When most kids were writing generic grade-school stories, I was writing about aliens and war and pretty much everything I was encouraged [i]not[/i] to write about. None of my teachers ever praised me for being original or unique, many of them seemed determined to stamp my creativity out. There were exceptions, of course--two that I can think of--but for the most part, people suck.
I'm not really an outcast, and I'm most definetely not a goth, but it is true that most fail to understand me, to a degree far beyond the norm. I don't hold any illusions that I am somehow more evolved than most--hell, if anything, I think I see myself as some kind of tragic hero, replete with faults--but I have come to realize that there is something about me that is profoundly peculiar.
Thanks in equal portion to both migraines and severe apathy, my grades do not reflect my intelligence at all, but I've never really had trouble in school. I am in Honors classes across the board, so most of the people I interact with on a daily basis are the ones who excelled at fitting into the predefined societal mold grade school measured us against. It is [i]shocking[/i] to me to see how wide a gap exists between myself and they.
My school is one of the best in the state, and my state is the best in the country in terms of education, yet many of my peers have difficulty reading, difficulty making simple inferences from what is taught. Case in point being parabolas in Algebra II; I forget the exact terminology, but there exists a line on either side of a parabola that it forever gets closer and closer to, but never touches. My teacher spent a good fifteen minutes trying to explain that no, it did not become a straight line, nor did it curl back in on itself--it just got closer. They simply fail to realize that between and two integers exists an infinity of numbers; it was frustrating to no end listening to that conversation. And even more amazing is their lack of creativity, of imagination; yes, they are driven to succeed and to do well, but they do not even realize how limiting the education system is. I suppose--as SB stated--that we can't all be artists and dreamers unless we strip down, return to the forests, and live in anarchy, but... blech.
[B]yay to the Freejacks of this world...
*bows with respect*
your eloquence and articulation of the truth are much appreciated [/B][/QUOTE]
*bows back*
Glad to be of service and thanks for the compliment. Eloquent is that last thing that comes to mind when I describe myself
[B]ahhh... ok... now I see it...
'average engineer'...
sorry... my liberal and general use of the language, rather than technical and precise..:D
in my book =
engineer, stone thinker, concrete thinker, hyperfactual, pedant,blockhead, bonehead, static person.
all interchangable terms...
[/B][/QUOTE]
That just says exactly the same thing. You're saying you believe all engineers are incapable of abstract thought. You can't define what kind of thought someone is capable of just because they happen to be in a certain profession.
In my 4th year project I actually got to play both roles. My partner was capable of coming up with some cool ideas, but he had trouble keeping them in reality (both in terms of implementability and available time). I was usually the one who got to trim them back to something we could do in the time available. But I also had to think outside the box to solve my own problems in the project.
I suggest you do some research about Isambard Brunel, SB.
[B]Case in point being parabolas in Algebra II; I forget the exact terminology, but there exists a line on either side of a parabola that it forever gets closer and closer to, but never touches. My teacher spent a good fifteen minutes trying to explain that no, it did not become a straight line, nor did it curl back in on itself--it just got closer. [/B][/QUOTE]
Asymptote. Asymptotes are cool :)
-Φ
[B]Migraines. And I'm missing my third day in a row as we speak, this time because I just generally feel like shit, having not done or eaten anything substantial for two days.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I dont usually notice any difference if I dont eat for two days..
I used to do some experiments on it a couple of years back. I think I was without food for about a week or so, continuing my "life" as normal. Going to school, going to krav maga excercises and all.
[B]I dont usually notice any difference if I dont eat for two days..[/B][/QUOTE]
Well, that depends on few things, first of all is what you're doing in that time. (heavy work consumes energy very rapidly compared to sitting)
Also thing that affects much is how much person has "nutrient reserves". (well, I don't have lot of those: 57 kgs/175 cm)
I've been many times doing hard work for whole daytime (from 9 am to 9 pm) without eating anything bigger than few slices of rye bread. (of course you'll have to drink)
Also I can forget hunger pretty easily.
[B]And even more amazing is their lack of creativity, of imagination; yes, they are driven to succeed and to do well,[/B][/QUOTE]
Meaning that they can remember things but they don't really know what those means in practise.
[B]
In my 4th year project I actually got to play both roles. My partner was capable of coming up with some cool ideas, but he had trouble keeping them in reality (both in terms of implementability and available time). I was usually the one who got to trim them back to something we could do in the time available. But I also had to think outside the box to solve my own problems in the project.
[/B][/QUOTE]
dude... thats exactly my point... what skills did you revert to ? implementation, grounding, working within realities, that's taking an abstract idea and bringing it into a conrete reality.
As I said.. I have zero problems with concrete thinkers when they do what they do best... step by step, defined logical methodical, measured and proven ways of getting shit done...
what fucks me off beyond all attempts at expression is when a haughty engineer decides that the inputs from an abstract thinker who dares to question the 'ways', who dares suggest a new way that might solve a problem...are of no value and either greets them with hoots of derision or some tables and graphs that are supposedly irrefutable. The total stick in the mud, cannot think outside the square block headed moron is my enemy, my favourite target. In psychlogical terms thats the 'SJ's
Sensate and Judgemental.... no vision, pessimistic by nature, always looking to the past for reference, rarely the future. incapable of questioning authority or working outside of a very tight set of paramaters...and they always work to contain the 'riff raff' and maintain the status quo, even when the comet is streaking in 20m overhead...
...thats the extreme.
Some 'engineers' fulfill that totally. I know a few, my Dad isn't quite a total arsehole in this respect but damn... he wont even look at my sketches or explore any ideas. Unless I present him with a precision 1:10 scale model... forget it... he's not interested. He can't visualise to save himself. He builds trailers, and just basically starts off with a couple chassis rails and adds shit... he's GOT to touch it, to be happy doing it.
Ok so I did some lumping together and some generalisation... live with it.
The point remains, some of us are happier, and dwell more often in the abstract, others fall the other side of the razor and like staying there...
The abstract persons are outnumbered 5 to 1, seemingly by way of natures sophisticated balance. We need one dreamer to every five shovelers, so to speak. Shovelers can dream too... but dreaming isnt native to their minds, shoveling is...
btw Im not being derisive, as I said, we need shovelers as much as we need dreamers.
It's when the fucking shovelers decide to delete, deride, pour scorn upon, fail to respect and appreciate the dreamer, or just generally make the dreamer miserable... that I get angry. Very angry.
~~~~
I know you Biggles. I know how you operate well enough to know where it is you sit in this criteria. I'm glad that you do have the ability to work in the abstract and you value the abstract... but I sure as hell know that the abstract isnt your home field.
Are we clear now ?
Anyone who refuses to be open-minded about outside input is either foolish, insecure, or both, regardless of their chosen profession.
I'm not sure what type of engineers you are referring to, but I've been in Software Engineering for a vast majority of my career and I have not met very many people who constrain themselves to pre-set ways of thinking.
Also, based on what you said to Biggles (about the Abstract not being an engineer's 'home field'), it makes me wonder what your educational and professional background is.
Both in my years at school and at work (and this is Engineering I'm talking about), people continue to reinforce the message that we must deal in the abstract.
In Software, engineers are ranked by a specific system, which is the following, from low to high:
Junior Software Engineer - Fixing minor bugs in existing code.
Software Engineer - Fixing more complex bugs, designing minor features.
Senior Software Engineer - Designing complex features that enrich the application functionality.
Principal Software Engineer - Contributes to the overall application architecture.
Software Architect - Architects complex software systems from scratch, abstractly defining the distributed system components and the most efficient interfaces between such components.
As you can see, as you move up from Junior Software Engineer, there's a natural progression in the degree of abstract thinking required.
While there are planty of people who are not capable or not interested in such abstractions and choose the management route to that of pure Engineering, I just wanted to make it clear that the field of Software Engineering values and encourages abstract thinking.
[B]I know you Biggles. I know how you operate well enough to know where it is you sit in this criteria. I'm glad that you do have the ability to work in the abstract and you value the abstract... but I sure as hell know that the abstract isnt your home field.[/B][/QUOTE]
If you think that, then you really don't know me at all. It's hard to be in research if you're only capable of thinking in the same old way as everyone who's been before.
Just because I got to ground the other person working on my project, that doesn't mean I didn't see the value in his ideas and didn't have unusual ideas of my own, and those ideas were quite often tried out just to see if they would work. It's just that occasionally you do need to think realistically (for example, when a completely unchangeable deadline is very close) and do what you know for sure you can do. Something else they taught us was how to know when to apply abstract thinking and when to go with proven concepts.
One of the things I love about my PhD is that there [b]are[/b] no real deadlines. I can just sit there and think away without having to worry about "is this actually possible to do?" Usually, the trick is to take some wild idea and [b]make[/b] it possible, something I have done a couple of times already.
We need a new RUSH album...
"Split Hemispheres"
;)