This is where I kick myself for limited knowledge in some feilds. Jack definately is stateing what I've been thinking.
And yes, definately one of the best science/religion threads I've been in. The last one, as soon as I stated my view, I was called "A retarded 3 year old moron" or something like that. It was redundent, thats all I really remember. :D
Man this place rocks!
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TheEXone [/i]
[B]If you try to look for a God that dwells in the clouds, and sits on a thrown surrounded by angels within what we can know in the universe you will come to the conclusion that God does not exist, and we only made him up to make us feel better about life. But if you try to see in everything around us the will of God that dwells in every atom, in ever molecule, in every cell that makes up your body then you will see that he is almost challenging you not to see him, to deny him in the midst of so much purpose.[/B][/QUOTE]
The interesting thing about this perspective is that it's getting close to some of the eastern religions, such as Bhuddism and Shinto.
If you try to look for a God that dwells in the clouds, and sits on a thrown surrounded by angels within what we can know in the universe you will come to the conclusion that God does not exist, and we only made him up to make us feel better about life. But if you try to see in everything around us the will of God that dwells in every atom, in ever molecule, in every cell that makes up your body then you will see that he is almost challenging you not to see him, to deny him in the midst of so much purpose.
[/B][/QUOTE]
In a way, I see him as both. IMO he his a figure sitting on a thrown surrounded by angles. (Not in the clouds though). But his glory is seen in every atom, cell, leaft, grain of sand, everything. The atom is not God, but a tribute to the glory and power of God, and for me, THAT is where the challenge to not see God lays.
Yea it does get pretty close to those concepts like in Buddism, but I also see God as having an actual conciousness and acting in some ways like the God described in the Bible. So its not totaly like the eastern veiw in which God or gods are seen as a representation of the forces in the universe and not actual beings.
For me whats good about the theory that I described above is that it can be a universal idea about God, and the differences in between say Christianity and Buddism are merley details about how we veiw God and in what context we see him.
A2597 I think we basicly agree though that creation itself is the biggest proof for the existence of God. The notion of where God actualy dwells, either in a physical place seprerate from the universe, or as the universe itself is meerly a difference in perspective.
Bah, I wrote quite a bit last night, and ended up not posting it. Oh well.
Many people have based their arguments on the belief that something so ordered as this universe could not have been created by mere chance, that there must be some greater intelligence out there. I completely and totally disagree.
I believe that everything is random, that the seemingly miraculous way that life evolved here on Earth is sheer chance.
When something ridiculously unlikely happens, people like to call it a miracle. Perhaps this is because of my belief in a multiverse, which I'll get into later, but I believe that the Human thought process is flawed, in that we see it as either winning the lottery, or not. There are countless different in-betweens--countless possible number combinations, countless places to buy a ticket, countless random events that could affect the outcome (ie. you dying, fnding a ticket on the street)--that make for entirely different "realities." There is an equal chance of any possible combination of all these factors occuring. To get into the grander scheme of things, one could include every possible combination of matter in the universe as a different outcome of this lottery theme.
In this light, I don't see it as there being a microscopic chance of Humans evolving; I see it as there being an infinite amount of possible realities, all equally likely to occur. We haven't explored any other planet outside Sol; we don't know if there is other life, or other failed attempts at life, out there. If there aren't, and we are truly alone, then in my view, all the other possible realities whereby life would occur in more than one place were not the reality that randomly occured.
And if there is such thing as a Multiverse, a place where every possible [i]anything[/i] is occuring at every instant, then all of this "chance" talk is for nothing. The only chance involved, is that we are existing in the reality where Humans evolved on Earth.
[Edit]And I have to agree about the quality of argument... I'm not even close to being as knowledgeable as most here, and I usually avoid these kinds of conversations, but this is an open subject, where anyone can and must have an opinion.
I just have one question though, Exile if you beleive in a multiverse in which every possible thing is happening and chance no longer exists then arent you basicly arguing what I said but on another level?
All of that mathematical probability working at an infinite rate essentialy removes chance. if thats true then everything added up leads to an existence of purpose, and therfore somekind of will must be at work even if its dementions seem only like infintely random probabilities.
Lets look at how we think our minds work. From what I know our conciousness is nothing more than an almost infinite amount of electrical nervous impulses going on in our brains which added up all at once gives rise to our thoughts and persona. No one can explain yet exacly how that produces what we call a self aware intelligence yet no one disputes that is what we are. Faith perhaps?
From the point of veiw of a simple electrical impulse in a human brain(if that were posible) it would be nearly impossible for it to comprehend that was part of a larger intelligence, i.e you or me.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JackN [/i]
[B]Existance without hope of something greater is dreary...
If all of this is by mere chance, why even bother...
It is an existance without meaning.
I can't accept that, and so I have Faith. [/B][/QUOTE]
This, I think, is one of the major differences between religious and secular people. The way I see it, why does there have to be some greater being, some greater plan for all of this? Why does there have to be something greater than this? What's so wrong with us being totally alone?
[QUOTE]I just have one question though, Exile if you beleive in a multiverse in which every possible thing is happening and chance no longer exists then arent you basicly arguing what I said but on another level?
All of that mathematical probability working at an infinite rate essentialy removes chance. if thats true then everything added up leads to an existence of purpose, and therfore somekind of will must be at work even if its dementions seem only like infintely random probabilities.[/QUOTE]
By a lack of chance, I do not mean a greater purpose. I mean that everything is, simply because it is. The fact that this infinity of infinities exists is something we cannot explain, but it makes logical sense that such a thing might exist. God or no God, a Multiverse, a chance-free existence, is possible.
[QUOTE]No one can explain yet exacly how that produces what we call a self aware intelligence yet no one disputes that is what we are. Faith perhaps?[/QUOTE]
You are essentially saying that anything that cannot be totally explained we have to have faith in, and I believe that, but this really has nothing to do with religion. I use the term faith in a secular way, to mean simple belief. I cannot explain how the brain works, but that's the best model we've got, so I believe in it. It exists, because it exists.
I've seen to many "Coincidences" for them to be such. Chance encounters that save lives, hunches that worked out perfectly, even though it seems impossible for that to happen...it speaks of a guiding hand to me.
All in all, I don't really believe in luck, to me, everything happens for a reason, and every reason serves a greater purpose.
just a little something to concider,
first off, just the right chemicles had to mix in the right position, and be struck by lightning. OK, I can kinda see that as remotely (One in ten thousand trillion) chance of happening. Then those amino acids had to link to form protines...I have no clue how that could happen, but OK.
Next, those protines had to form into some kind of living creature, say, an ameoba.
ok, provided this happens, it then has to reproduce. This means that random chemicles mixing managed to create an organism capable of reproducing itself by chance, which is pretty slim in my book but OK.
now, somehow, the amoeba had to start becoming more complex, the reason for this would be unknown, but a few billion reproductions later you have a two celled organism, and so fourth to a fish, frog, and onto a monkey.
Now, genetics have been able to trace all humans back to two HUMANS, pure genetics, not two monkeys, but two humans.
that means that two monkeys had to give birth to the human form we are today, in a small time period (Say, 50 years back then) in the same location (Say, within 20 miles) and they had to mate, and their children had to mate, with no cross breeding between the monkeys and the humans.
OK, now the odds are absolutly rediculously low. For me, it would take alot of faith to believe that, rather then believe I was created by an infanetly more intelligent being.
oh, and one other question, regaurding the multiverse theory. This is probably something beyond my (Or human?) comprehension, but how does the universe know what every possibility is? and what happens if a chance is missed? If chaos in ruler, then by that own credit, at some point, a possibility must be missed, and then what happens?
...
whow...I got long winded. WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! :D
Myself, I tend to think that the brain is a tool. The brain is [i]not[/i] ourselves, but rather an interface through which we control our thoughts and actions. Kinda like the steering wheel and pedals of a car; there can be nothing physically wrong with the car, but it will not move unless there is a driver using the wheel and pedals to [i]will[/i] it to move.
Put another way: the brain is an implement of the soul, as opposed to a container of the soul or a manifestation of the soul.
Lengthy, but fascinating. I wondered the same things (ie. what if a possibility is missed) before reading that.
The Multiverse theory isn't actually all that central to my basic belief, though it is relevant. Basically, I believe that there is no chance, there is no greater purpose, there just [i]is[/i].
interesting read, I'll give it that, but I have a slight problem with it.
I just paused before started this second paragraph. Does that mean in another part of the multiverse, I did not hesitate? Or did they just hesitate from every possible time from no hesitation to the point of never starting it, and infinate amount of possibilities, and an infinate number of universes was just created, and every billienth of a nanosecond another infinate number of universes are popping up to try to keep up with every possibility from the universe never forming to me forgetting to clip my fingernails...
According to the theory, new universe aren't formed, they are already there. There is an infinite amount of universes already. The matter is there for the same reason it is here in this universe.
It's like the way infinity plus one is the same amount as infinity (fancy math sidestepping about continuum and aleph zero aside ;)). Infinite universes + universe is still infinite universes (and matter). There is no more, there is no less. There just...is.
-Φ [subliminal]is getting zoned out by this infinity concept...[/subliminal]
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]ok, but that still doesn't explain where all that matter came from.
No offence, it just seems a little far fetched to me. [/B][/QUOTE]
And God just being there might not be? You have to admit, there is just as much possibility of one as there is of the other.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Biggles [/i]
[B]And God just being there might not be? You have to admit, there is just as much possibility of one as there is of the other. [/B][/QUOTE]
True, true....
I just like my retirement plan a bit more. :D :D :D
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JackN [/i]
[B]I've been handed two books to read...
A Brief History of Time - Stephen Hawking[/B][/QUOTE]
That's very good book.
I would recommend reading it to anyone.
ShadowDancerWhen I say, "Why aye, gadgie," in my heart I say, "Och aye, laddie."London, UK
indeed. i first read it at about 14 and to be honest it was only the last few chapters i didnt get. i reread it a few years later and it made much more sense, tho that seems to be the opposite to much in life:D
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JackN [/i]
[B]I've been handed two books to read...
A Brief History of Time - Stephen Hawking
and
The Elegant Universe - Brian Greene
:D
I find Cosmology, Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Superstring theory just absolutely fascinating...
It doesn't hinder my faith either... :p [/B][/QUOTE]
I've been pondering about ordering those books and some others from Amazon, but things are tight at the moment, so I can't afford to yet. When I started reading about those topics, I found I couldn't stop wanting more :p
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JackN [/i]
[B]
I think science fails in relation to religion, becuase Science will never be able to prove or disprove God.
[/B][/QUOTE]
No, it's the other way around. Religions fail in relation to science, because religions/people who belive in Gods existence will never be able to prove that such a thing exists. You see, the one who claims something has the resposibility to prove his claim to be right, not the other way around.
[quote]It shouldn't even be trying to answer that question.[/quote]
With this I agree. It would be such a waste of time and resources for nothing.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Captain,Simmonds [/i]
[B]Sciance is Facts and questions
Religiion is Faith. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's right.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CurZ [/i]
[B]I don't know yet. I don't know if I ever will know. But I'm not going to make assumptions about it.[/B][/QUOTE]
Well said. And there's the key word "assumptions". That's what religions do. They ASSUME that there is such a thing as God/deity. But they can't prove it.
I have never seen any evidence that God exists. And you can't consider as a fact anything which haven't been proven to be a fact by strict undeniable evidence (though we have seen in the recent world history that some people think otherwise, unfortunately [img]http://forums.firstones.com/images/oldicons/icon8.gif[/img] ). So basically "nothing exists" (note the quotes!) until proven otherwise. And even if it really did, it wouldn't exist FOR US before we can prove it. That's an important part here which we need to remember. It's the same thing as everybody is innocent until proven otherwise. Sure the fact COULD be something else, but that's irrelevant, because we still can't start claiming somethings existence as a truth if we don't have reliable evidence to back it up. Until then we can only assume and make theories. Thinking otherwise would be false thinking by nature. This is why I can't understand why anybody believes in God and why I personally don't believe in God.
Like said, religions and belief in God was created by people in fear of unknown.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JackN [/i]
[B]Now, generally speaking, these work for the physical universe we know. I have a hard time seeing TIME as a dimension though...[/B][/QUOTE]
Me too. Time is not a dimension. In fact, there is no such thing as time even existing, only movement. "Time" as a concept is a human invention to relate events (movement). To measure a relation of events. And as we all know, timescale came from the movements of Earth and Sun (days, months, years). Dimensions (height, width, depth) are not inventions. So time itself should not be regarded as another dimension in the same sense. I can understand it being called such though, because it measures movement, which could be regarded as another dimension in a way. At least it makes easier to handle and understand things in science.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PJH [/i]
[B]
Like said, religions and belief in God was created by people in fear of unknown.
And that's all there is to it.
- PJH [/B][/QUOTE]
alternatively, evolution was created by people fearing that God does exist, and thus that they will be held accountable for their actions in this life.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]alternatively, evolution was created by people fearing that God does exist, and thus that they will be held accountable for their actions in this life.
well actualy Darwin belived in God very much, and he was very troubled by the effects his ideas would have on his faith.
PJH, science alone can never fufill our need for a greater purpose in life because essentialy it tells people that everything they are, all they care about means absolutely nothing.
Let me ask you something, do you believe in love? because that can never be proven either, it can never be weighed or measured tested or counted yet almost everyone on the planet has felt it at least from there parents if not a companion. So if we can't prove it exists, does that mean we should all just go around treating our family just like strangers, and just go have animal sex with everyone we meet?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TheEXone [/i]
[B]PJH, science alone can never fufill our need for a greater purpose in life because essentialy it tells people that everything they are, all they care about means absolutely nothing.[/B][/quote]
That is the way I view life, and it does not trouble me at all. Just because their is no God, no grander scheme, doesn't mean it's worthless. Is not existence a good enough reason to exist? We have no limits, no expectations placed upon us. The fact that we were not born with any inherent purpose does not mean we cannot make our own, does it?
[quote][b]Let me ask you something, do you believe in love? because that can never be proven either, it can never be weighed or measured tested or counted yet almost everyone on the planet has felt it at least from there parents if not a companion. So if we can't prove it exists, does that mean we should all just go around treating our family just like strangers, and just go have animal sex with everyone we meet? [/B][/QUOTE]
Love is generated by those electrochemical signals in the brain you were talking about before. IMO, love is pretty much a Human invention, when 'animal sex' became too savage for a 'civilized' species like ourselves.
Comments
And yes, definately one of the best science/religion threads I've been in. The last one, as soon as I stated my view, I was called "A retarded 3 year old moron" or something like that. It was redundent, thats all I really remember. :D
Man this place rocks!
[B]If you try to look for a God that dwells in the clouds, and sits on a thrown surrounded by angels within what we can know in the universe you will come to the conclusion that God does not exist, and we only made him up to make us feel better about life. But if you try to see in everything around us the will of God that dwells in every atom, in ever molecule, in every cell that makes up your body then you will see that he is almost challenging you not to see him, to deny him in the midst of so much purpose.[/B][/QUOTE]
The interesting thing about this perspective is that it's getting close to some of the eastern religions, such as Bhuddism and Shinto.
[B]
If you try to look for a God that dwells in the clouds, and sits on a thrown surrounded by angels within what we can know in the universe you will come to the conclusion that God does not exist, and we only made him up to make us feel better about life. But if you try to see in everything around us the will of God that dwells in every atom, in ever molecule, in every cell that makes up your body then you will see that he is almost challenging you not to see him, to deny him in the midst of so much purpose.
[/B][/QUOTE]
In a way, I see him as both. IMO he his a figure sitting on a thrown surrounded by angles. (Not in the clouds though). But his glory is seen in every atom, cell, leaft, grain of sand, everything. The atom is not God, but a tribute to the glory and power of God, and for me, THAT is where the challenge to not see God lays.
For me whats good about the theory that I described above is that it can be a universal idea about God, and the differences in between say Christianity and Buddism are merley details about how we veiw God and in what context we see him.
A2597 I think we basicly agree though that creation itself is the biggest proof for the existence of God. The notion of where God actualy dwells, either in a physical place seprerate from the universe, or as the universe itself is meerly a difference in perspective.
Many people have based their arguments on the belief that something so ordered as this universe could not have been created by mere chance, that there must be some greater intelligence out there. I completely and totally disagree.
I believe that everything is random, that the seemingly miraculous way that life evolved here on Earth is sheer chance.
When something ridiculously unlikely happens, people like to call it a miracle. Perhaps this is because of my belief in a multiverse, which I'll get into later, but I believe that the Human thought process is flawed, in that we see it as either winning the lottery, or not. There are countless different in-betweens--countless possible number combinations, countless places to buy a ticket, countless random events that could affect the outcome (ie. you dying, fnding a ticket on the street)--that make for entirely different "realities." There is an equal chance of any possible combination of all these factors occuring. To get into the grander scheme of things, one could include every possible combination of matter in the universe as a different outcome of this lottery theme.
In this light, I don't see it as there being a microscopic chance of Humans evolving; I see it as there being an infinite amount of possible realities, all equally likely to occur. We haven't explored any other planet outside Sol; we don't know if there is other life, or other failed attempts at life, out there. If there aren't, and we are truly alone, then in my view, all the other possible realities whereby life would occur in more than one place were not the reality that randomly occured.
And if there is such thing as a Multiverse, a place where every possible [i]anything[/i] is occuring at every instant, then all of this "chance" talk is for nothing. The only chance involved, is that we are existing in the reality where Humans evolved on Earth.
[Edit]And I have to agree about the quality of argument... I'm not even close to being as knowledgeable as most here, and I usually avoid these kinds of conversations, but this is an open subject, where anyone can and must have an opinion.
If all of this is by mere chance, why even bother...
It is an existance without meaning.
I can't accept that, and so I have Faith.
;)
I take an airplane, I understand the design of the wings, I understand the physics of air foils, but I can't see the air that's actually doing it.
I still have to have faith...
:)
I just have one question though, Exile if you beleive in a multiverse in which every possible thing is happening and chance no longer exists then arent you basicly arguing what I said but on another level?
All of that mathematical probability working at an infinite rate essentialy removes chance. if thats true then everything added up leads to an existence of purpose, and therfore somekind of will must be at work even if its dementions seem only like infintely random probabilities.
Lets look at how we think our minds work. From what I know our conciousness is nothing more than an almost infinite amount of electrical nervous impulses going on in our brains which added up all at once gives rise to our thoughts and persona. No one can explain yet exacly how that produces what we call a self aware intelligence yet no one disputes that is what we are. Faith perhaps?
From the point of veiw of a simple electrical impulse in a human brain(if that were posible) it would be nearly impossible for it to comprehend that was part of a larger intelligence, i.e you or me.
what do you think?
[B]Existance without hope of something greater is dreary...
If all of this is by mere chance, why even bother...
It is an existance without meaning.
I can't accept that, and so I have Faith. [/B][/QUOTE]
This, I think, is one of the major differences between religious and secular people. The way I see it, why does there have to be some greater being, some greater plan for all of this? Why does there have to be something greater than this? What's so wrong with us being totally alone?
[QUOTE]I just have one question though, Exile if you beleive in a multiverse in which every possible thing is happening and chance no longer exists then arent you basicly arguing what I said but on another level?
All of that mathematical probability working at an infinite rate essentialy removes chance. if thats true then everything added up leads to an existence of purpose, and therfore somekind of will must be at work even if its dementions seem only like infintely random probabilities.[/QUOTE]
By a lack of chance, I do not mean a greater purpose. I mean that everything is, simply because it is. The fact that this infinity of infinities exists is something we cannot explain, but it makes logical sense that such a thing might exist. God or no God, a Multiverse, a chance-free existence, is possible.
[QUOTE]No one can explain yet exacly how that produces what we call a self aware intelligence yet no one disputes that is what we are. Faith perhaps?[/QUOTE]
You are essentially saying that anything that cannot be totally explained we have to have faith in, and I believe that, but this really has nothing to do with religion. I use the term faith in a secular way, to mean simple belief. I cannot explain how the brain works, but that's the best model we've got, so I believe in it. It exists, because it exists.
All in all, I don't really believe in luck, to me, everything happens for a reason, and every reason serves a greater purpose.
just a little something to concider,
first off, just the right chemicles had to mix in the right position, and be struck by lightning. OK, I can kinda see that as remotely (One in ten thousand trillion) chance of happening. Then those amino acids had to link to form protines...I have no clue how that could happen, but OK.
Next, those protines had to form into some kind of living creature, say, an ameoba.
ok, provided this happens, it then has to reproduce. This means that random chemicles mixing managed to create an organism capable of reproducing itself by chance, which is pretty slim in my book but OK.
now, somehow, the amoeba had to start becoming more complex, the reason for this would be unknown, but a few billion reproductions later you have a two celled organism, and so fourth to a fish, frog, and onto a monkey.
Now, genetics have been able to trace all humans back to two HUMANS, pure genetics, not two monkeys, but two humans.
that means that two monkeys had to give birth to the human form we are today, in a small time period (Say, 50 years back then) in the same location (Say, within 20 miles) and they had to mate, and their children had to mate, with no cross breeding between the monkeys and the humans.
OK, now the odds are absolutly rediculously low. For me, it would take alot of faith to believe that, rather then believe I was created by an infanetly more intelligent being.
oh, and one other question, regaurding the multiverse theory. This is probably something beyond my (Or human?) comprehension, but how does the universe know what every possibility is? and what happens if a chance is missed? If chaos in ruler, then by that own credit, at some point, a possibility must be missed, and then what happens?
...
whow...I got long winded. WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! :D
Put another way: the brain is an implement of the soul, as opposed to a container of the soul or a manifestation of the soul.
Lengthy, but fascinating. I wondered the same things (ie. what if a possibility is missed) before reading that.
The Multiverse theory isn't actually all that central to my basic belief, though it is relevant. Basically, I believe that there is no chance, there is no greater purpose, there just [i]is[/i].
I just paused before started this second paragraph. Does that mean in another part of the multiverse, I did not hesitate? Or did they just hesitate from every possible time from no hesitation to the point of never starting it, and infinate amount of possibilities, and an infinate number of universes was just created, and every billienth of a nanosecond another infinate number of universes are popping up to try to keep up with every possibility from the universe never forming to me forgetting to clip my fingernails...
sooo....where is all this matter coming from?
No offence, it just seems a little far fetched to me.
-Φ [subliminal]is getting zoned out by this infinity concept...[/subliminal]
[B]ok, but that still doesn't explain where all that matter came from.
No offence, it just seems a little far fetched to me. [/B][/QUOTE]
And God just being there might not be? You have to admit, there is just as much possibility of one as there is of the other.
[B]And God just being there might not be? You have to admit, there is just as much possibility of one as there is of the other. [/B][/QUOTE]
True, true....
I just like my retirement plan a bit more. :D :D :D
A Brief History of Time - Stephen Hawking
and
The Elegant Universe - Brian Greene
:D
I find Cosmology, Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Superstring theory just absolutely fascinating...
It doesn't hinder my faith either... :p
[B]I've been handed two books to read...
A Brief History of Time - Stephen Hawking[/B][/QUOTE]
That's very good book.
I would recommend reading it to anyone.
[B]I've been handed two books to read...
A Brief History of Time - Stephen Hawking
and
The Elegant Universe - Brian Greene
:D
I find Cosmology, Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Superstring theory just absolutely fascinating...
It doesn't hinder my faith either... :p [/B][/QUOTE]
I've been pondering about ordering those books and some others from Amazon, but things are tight at the moment, so I can't afford to yet. When I started reading about those topics, I found I couldn't stop wanting more :p
[B]
I think science fails in relation to religion, becuase Science will never be able to prove or disprove God.
[/B][/QUOTE]
No, it's the other way around. Religions fail in relation to science, because religions/people who belive in Gods existence will never be able to prove that such a thing exists. You see, the one who claims something has the resposibility to prove his claim to be right, not the other way around.
[quote]It shouldn't even be trying to answer that question.[/quote]
With this I agree. It would be such a waste of time and resources for nothing.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Captain,Simmonds [/i]
[B]Sciance is Facts and questions
Religiion is Faith. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's right.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CurZ [/i]
[B]I don't know yet. I don't know if I ever will know. But I'm not going to make assumptions about it.[/B][/QUOTE]
Well said. And there's the key word "assumptions". That's what religions do. They ASSUME that there is such a thing as God/deity. But they can't prove it.
I have never seen any evidence that God exists. And you can't consider as a fact anything which haven't been proven to be a fact by strict undeniable evidence (though we have seen in the recent world history that some people think otherwise, unfortunately [img]http://forums.firstones.com/images/oldicons/icon8.gif[/img] ). So basically "nothing exists" (note the quotes!) until proven otherwise. And even if it really did, it wouldn't exist FOR US before we can prove it. That's an important part here which we need to remember. It's the same thing as everybody is innocent until proven otherwise. Sure the fact COULD be something else, but that's irrelevant, because we still can't start claiming somethings existence as a truth if we don't have reliable evidence to back it up. Until then we can only assume and make theories. Thinking otherwise would be false thinking by nature. This is why I can't understand why anybody believes in God and why I personally don't believe in God.
Like said, religions and belief in God was created by people in fear of unknown.
And that's all there is to it.
- PJH
[B]Now, generally speaking, these work for the physical universe we know. I have a hard time seeing TIME as a dimension though...[/B][/QUOTE]
Me too. Time is not a dimension. In fact, there is no such thing as time even existing, only movement. "Time" as a concept is a human invention to relate events (movement). To measure a relation of events. And as we all know, timescale came from the movements of Earth and Sun (days, months, years). Dimensions (height, width, depth) are not inventions. So time itself should not be regarded as another dimension in the same sense. I can understand it being called such though, because it measures movement, which could be regarded as another dimension in a way. At least it makes easier to handle and understand things in science.
- PJH
[B]
Like said, religions and belief in God was created by people in fear of unknown.
And that's all there is to it.
- PJH [/B][/QUOTE]
alternatively, evolution was created by people fearing that God does exist, and thus that they will be held accountable for their actions in this life.
:D
[B]alternatively, evolution was created by people fearing that God does exist, and thus that they will be held accountable for their actions in this life.
:D [/B][/QUOTE]
:D
- PJH
PJH, science alone can never fufill our need for a greater purpose in life because essentialy it tells people that everything they are, all they care about means absolutely nothing.
Let me ask you something, do you believe in love? because that can never be proven either, it can never be weighed or measured tested or counted yet almost everyone on the planet has felt it at least from there parents if not a companion. So if we can't prove it exists, does that mean we should all just go around treating our family just like strangers, and just go have animal sex with everyone we meet?
[B]PJH, science alone can never fufill our need for a greater purpose in life because essentialy it tells people that everything they are, all they care about means absolutely nothing.[/B][/quote]
That is the way I view life, and it does not trouble me at all. Just because their is no God, no grander scheme, doesn't mean it's worthless. Is not existence a good enough reason to exist? We have no limits, no expectations placed upon us. The fact that we were not born with any inherent purpose does not mean we cannot make our own, does it?
[quote][b]Let me ask you something, do you believe in love? because that can never be proven either, it can never be weighed or measured tested or counted yet almost everyone on the planet has felt it at least from there parents if not a companion. So if we can't prove it exists, does that mean we should all just go around treating our family just like strangers, and just go have animal sex with everyone we meet? [/B][/QUOTE]
Love is generated by those electrochemical signals in the brain you were talking about before. IMO, love is pretty much a Human invention, when 'animal sex' became too savage for a 'civilized' species like ourselves.