[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Arik [/i]
[B]I think there's a strong hint as to who originally built it in the last book of the Technomage trilogy (a very similar technology is mentioned) [/B][/QUOTE]
Really? Somehow that escaped me then. Care to tell us since I really don't have the time to read the book nowadays. :)
It's been a while since I read the books so I'll skip most of the names and try to relay the important information as best I can.
In the third book of the trilogy, Galen travels to Z'Ha'Dum to confront his former best friend and a fellow technomage. While on Z'Ha'Dum, he finds the first technomage, the founder of their order, and finds this First Technomage stuck in a machine that controls pretty much all of Z'Ha'Dum. Galen then ends up becoming the heart of that machine for a while too. The machine described in that book is very similar to the one that's on Epsilon 3. Also, just thinking about the design of it, it's definitely shadow-style technology, something that needs an embedded living component to run.
It's been a while since I read the books so I'll skip most of the names and try to relay the important information as best I can.
In the third book of the trilogy, Galen travels to Z'Ha'Dum to confront his former best friend and a fellow technomage. While on Z'Ha'Dum, he finds the first technomage, the founder of their order, and finds this First Technomage stuck in a machine that controls pretty much all of Z'Ha'Dum. Galen then ends up becoming the heart of that machine for a while too. The machine described in that book is very similar to the one that's on Epsilon 3. Also, just thinking about the design of it, it's definitely shadow-style technology, something that needs an embedded living component to run.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I thought that place went kablooie. Or does this happen in some other time?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Lord Refa [/i]
[B] I thought that place went kablooie. Or does this happen in some other time? [/B][/QUOTE]
Yep, you are right. The big finale events of book 3 (technomage trilogy) occur at the same time as the episodes of B5 where Sheridan goes to Z'ha'dum and nukes the place, and meets Lorien. So the place does go "kablooie", but only because Galen was able to force the Z'ha'dum automatic defense systems not to fire on the Whitestar as it was descending for its nuke run.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mr. Fury [/i]
[B]Oh that right. Somehow I never thought about Epsilo 3 while reading that part. :) [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, I didn't make that connection either until seeing this thread. Thinking about Epsilon 3 origins triggered a memory of that part of Technomage Trilogy's book 3.:vorlon:
E3 isn't exactly the same as the other weapon I mentioned... IIRC, the other needed shadow tech for the interface, though I may be wrong about that. With E3, on the other hand, the interface seems to be purely organic. So maybe I'm way off, and it's Vorlon tech (as opposed to Shadow), because it's definitely Vorlon's style to build tech that would depend on organics. So the origin of E3 can be argued to be Shadows, Vorlons, or any of the other ancient races. It's safe to assume that it wasn't a younger race since the Minbari, oldest of the young, clearly were not the creators of E3.
For the sake of briefness, I'll try not to second-guess myself and stick to my initial assumption that E3 is a Shadow-built device.
Now, as for your questions...
1) why would E3 be built by the people in question?
While I can not be certain, I have some theories...
a) my guess would be that it may have been used in the last shadow war. Just as Babylon 4 was used as the base of operations by the alliance of races who stood against the shadows, shadows themselves may have used E3 as their own base. Not very likely, but possible.
b) Before the last shadow war, it was clear that the Shadows and Vorlons had befriended younger races in order to spread their 'philosophy'. It's possible that the alien race who had been the keepers of E3, until replaced by a Minbari, were in league with the shadows. In that case, maybe the Shadows rewarded them with this powerful weapon (which was still quite primitive by shadow standards). Then, after the Shadows lost the war, there may have been an uprising where Shadow-corrupted leaders were done away with and so the weapon fell into the hands of the anti-Shadow group until discovered by Babylon 5. If that were the case, this also means that the aliens who tried to take control of E3 but were destroyed by the planet were the last of that race who were influenced by the Shadows.
2) Are there other worlds like it then?
Possible, but not likely. Even if there were, if they were Shadow-built, they would have self-destructed after whoever was the 'heart' died. Since it had been 1000 years since the shadow 's defeat and it's unlikely that life could be supported for that long, the other plants would most likely have self-destructed about 300-500 after the last shadow war, with the death of the alien who was the 'heart'.
3) Would this be the real purpose of the mages?
No. The Technomage Trilogy goes into more detail about the true purpose of the Technomages. I won't go into any detail here, but I don't think it'll spoil anything to say that their purpose was to be the 'heart' of the great machine.
Another idea is that E3 was created as a vorlon responce to what the shadows did. It could also very well be that the sole purpose of E3 was to bring B4 back in time.
Dr. Franklin said that Epsilon 3 was never touched by the Shadows (you can find it from the 4th episode of 4th season, Falling Toward Apotheosis). Does this include their technology or not?
Of course we don't know where he got this information, but I'm pretty sure that Shadows or their allies didn't build the Great Machine of E3.
I'm pretty much absolutely certain that it wasn't the Shadows. For one, their tech tends to have the effect of subsuming the personality of whoever's plugged in. (This is even true for the technomages, to an extent, which is why they had to expend such constant effort to remain in control, at least until Galen unlocked his.)
There's very little doubt in my mind that it's Vorlon tech, and here's why:
First, it's clear that the guy who inhabited it until season 1 did not belong to the race of builders. He was entrusted with the machine, in part to keep its existence hidden from other members of his race. When those other members actually showed up, the great machine took care of them in a matter of seconds; thus, the machine clearly has a much higher tech level than that race.
Second, it had to have been built by one of the older races; that much nobody questions. As I mentioned above, the tech here is inconsistent with Shadow tech in that it doesn't enslave the user. Even Minbari are comfortable using it, and Delenn shows no discomfort when inside the planet. You may recall how she reacted when Morden showed up at her quarters.
So, that much tells us that it is old, powerful, and not Shadow tech, but so far it could still be any of the other FirstOnes. Why am I so sure it's Vorlon? Read on....
Third, location. Why would anyone go to the trouble of building this great machine in the middle of nowhere? What is there that's special about the Epsilon system, given that we have no reason to believe it can move under its own power?
Simple: That's where the Babylon stations were built. Valen knew this, and he knew that in order for Sinclair to go back in time, there had to be the Great Machine to control (and probably even create) the time distortion in Sector 14. Thus, the Great Machine was constructed for the express purpose of sending B4 back in time, so that the Minbari and the other younger races would have a base of operations, with Valen at the helm.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Bekenn [/i]
[B]I'm pretty much absolutely certain that it wasn't the Shadows. For one, their tech tends to have the effect of subsuming the personality of whoever's plugged in.
There's very little doubt in my mind that it's Vorlon tech, and here's why:
What d'ya think? [/B][/QUOTE]
I never considered the last point you made... yes, with that considered, I agree that it must be a Vorlon-made device.
However, I still find it interesting how much it resembles the device described in the Technomage trilogy. Shadow and Vorlon technologies are very similar, with the only difference being how they are 'powered', in a manner of speaking.
Bekenn, I was thinking along similar lines, and it has been hypothisied before that that was its only real function, and perhaps defend babylon 5 if the need arised.
i dont want to open another thread just for that so here's another small question
it probably is unknown but most of you read the b5 books so maybe there's an answer-
what was written on the transport ships, and for what purpose was it written for? is there a purpose?
i'm talking about both cases, 1st there's a part when kosh1 coms with the ships and the text is written, 2nd time that happens is when the kosh2's ship flies up and writes the text when sheridan observes
ahh btw why in the gathering kosh's ship got out of a orange jumpgate while it should be blue?
my thought was that it was that way for a purpose since the ships got out form hyperspace backward, in a way of entering hyperspace. but the 2nd transport ship entered normally through a blue...
we were never told the writing. I assumed in the first part it was to tell kosh what had been discussed by the ship. the second jms said it was something along the lines of 'welcome to hawaii'
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by riku [/i]
[B]
ahh btw why in the gathering kosh's ship got out of a orange jumpgate while it should be blue?[/B][/QUOTE]
Because they hadn't quite worked out the special effects yet, so both the jumppoints were an odd shade of orange. This is also why the cobra bays on Babylon 5 have no doors, or markings of any kind, why there is no motion blur, making the ships look like stop motion, and why Epsilon 3 looks so different (and has moons).
Using MS Word and the Vorlon font, I was able to "decode" these somewhat. I'm not at all sure where the font came from, so I have no guarantees that the letter order in the font matches anything the show used, but nonetheless, I get rather interesting results.
First ship:
stee pugh
__v
(underscores added by me for justification)
Given the position of the v, it's tempting to read this as:
Steve Pugh
Steve Pugh is the name of a guy who worked on the show, credited as a "System Engineer" (according to the Lurker's Guide). However, I wasn't able to find a credit for him on that particular episode ("Hunter, Prey" if I'm not mistaken), nor for any episode previous to that one, so it's possible that whoever designed the font I'm using did so afterwards and decided to make the lettering on the Vorlon ship spell "Steve Pugh."
Or, it could all just be coincidence.
Here's what I get for the second ship:
john .esma
I should note here that the s there is uncertain, but given the first word, this certainly looks like another name to me.
the "S" you mentioned is quite similar to the question mark. In fact, it's the same, except for the last bar, which is deleted (though the dot remains)
[img]http://sanfam.rh.rit.edu/vorlon.gif[/img]
The left is what I could take from it. The right, JOHN .E? M A converted to vorlon characters.
May i theorize about the great machine? oh yes i may.
I was just thinking maybe the machines are even older then the firstones.
if theres one on zahadum and on E3 and if it was shadow tech theyfore there would be NO way the vorlons would have let B5 be built there. NO WAY.
So maybe they were built by Loriens race before the firstones, or even by another race, the firstones to the firstones. (may not be far off if the level of a firstone is roughly a million years and the universe is billions there could be a whole lot of firsone level beings out there)
Or another thought i had is maybe E3's purpose is that of a communications for the firstones. So they can all stay in contact or something. But it was designed for Comm, and thats why it can so easily steal transmissions LIGHT years away.
...Except that I seem to recall JMS saying somewhere that the great machine was built in the last thousand years. I'll have to see if I can dig up the quote later, when I have more time.
Comments
[B]I think there's a strong hint as to who originally built it in the last book of the Technomage trilogy (a very similar technology is mentioned) [/B][/QUOTE]
Really? Somehow that escaped me then. Care to tell us since I really don't have the time to read the book nowadays. :)
**
* SPOILER WARNING
**
*/
Highlight to read...
It's been a while since I read the books so I'll skip most of the names and try to relay the important information as best I can.
In the third book of the trilogy, Galen travels to Z'Ha'Dum to confront his former best friend and a fellow technomage. While on Z'Ha'Dum, he finds the first technomage, the founder of their order, and finds this First Technomage stuck in a machine that controls pretty much all of Z'Ha'Dum. Galen then ends up becoming the heart of that machine for a while too. The machine described in that book is very similar to the one that's on Epsilon 3. Also, just thinking about the design of it, it's definitely shadow-style technology, something that needs an embedded living component to run.
[B]/**
**
* SPOILER WARNING
**
*/
Highlight to read...
It's been a while since I read the books so I'll skip most of the names and try to relay the important information as best I can.
In the third book of the trilogy, Galen travels to Z'Ha'Dum to confront his former best friend and a fellow technomage. While on Z'Ha'Dum, he finds the first technomage, the founder of their order, and finds this First Technomage stuck in a machine that controls pretty much all of Z'Ha'Dum. Galen then ends up becoming the heart of that machine for a while too. The machine described in that book is very similar to the one that's on Epsilon 3. Also, just thinking about the design of it, it's definitely shadow-style technology, something that needs an embedded living component to run.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I thought that place went kablooie. Or does this happen in some other time?
[B] I thought that place went kablooie. Or does this happen in some other time? [/B][/QUOTE]
Yep, you are right. The big finale events of book 3 (technomage trilogy) occur at the same time as the episodes of B5 where Sheridan goes to Z'ha'dum and nukes the place, and meets Lorien. So the place does go "kablooie", but only because Galen was able to force the Z'ha'dum automatic defense systems not to fire on the Whitestar as it was descending for its nuke run.
[B]Oh that right. Somehow I never thought about Epsilo 3 while reading that part. :) [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, I didn't make that connection either until seeing this thread. Thinking about Epsilon 3 origins triggered a memory of that part of Technomage Trilogy's book 3.:vorlon:
now my question is, why would E3 be built by the people in question? Are there other worlds like it then? Would this be the real purpose of the mages?
For the sake of briefness, I'll try not to second-guess myself and stick to my initial assumption that E3 is a Shadow-built device.
Now, as for your questions...
1) why would E3 be built by the people in question?
While I can not be certain, I have some theories...
a) my guess would be that it may have been used in the last shadow war. Just as Babylon 4 was used as the base of operations by the alliance of races who stood against the shadows, shadows themselves may have used E3 as their own base. Not very likely, but possible.
b) Before the last shadow war, it was clear that the Shadows and Vorlons had befriended younger races in order to spread their 'philosophy'. It's possible that the alien race who had been the keepers of E3, until replaced by a Minbari, were in league with the shadows. In that case, maybe the Shadows rewarded them with this powerful weapon (which was still quite primitive by shadow standards). Then, after the Shadows lost the war, there may have been an uprising where Shadow-corrupted leaders were done away with and so the weapon fell into the hands of the anti-Shadow group until discovered by Babylon 5. If that were the case, this also means that the aliens who tried to take control of E3 but were destroyed by the planet were the last of that race who were influenced by the Shadows.
2) Are there other worlds like it then?
Possible, but not likely. Even if there were, if they were Shadow-built, they would have self-destructed after whoever was the 'heart' died. Since it had been 1000 years since the shadow 's defeat and it's unlikely that life could be supported for that long, the other plants would most likely have self-destructed about 300-500 after the last shadow war, with the death of the alien who was the 'heart'.
3) Would this be the real purpose of the mages?
No. The Technomage Trilogy goes into more detail about the true purpose of the Technomages. I won't go into any detail here, but I don't think it'll spoil anything to say that their purpose was to be the 'heart' of the great machine.
i wish jms will proceed with crusade or just make something new about the babylon5
more then everything, a b5 movie. but i dont see it coming =[
And I sunk your battleship!
Of course we don't know where he got this information, but I'm pretty sure that Shadows or their allies didn't build the Great Machine of E3.
There's very little doubt in my mind that it's Vorlon tech, and here's why:
First, it's clear that the guy who inhabited it until season 1 did not belong to the race of builders. He was entrusted with the machine, in part to keep its existence hidden from other members of his race. When those other members actually showed up, the great machine took care of them in a matter of seconds; thus, the machine clearly has a much higher tech level than that race.
Second, it had to have been built by one of the older races; that much nobody questions. As I mentioned above, the tech here is inconsistent with Shadow tech in that it doesn't enslave the user. Even Minbari are comfortable using it, and Delenn shows no discomfort when inside the planet. You may recall how she reacted when Morden showed up at her quarters.
So, that much tells us that it is old, powerful, and not Shadow tech, but so far it could still be any of the other FirstOnes. Why am I so sure it's Vorlon? Read on....
Third, location. Why would anyone go to the trouble of building this great machine in the middle of nowhere? What is there that's special about the Epsilon system, given that we have no reason to believe it can move under its own power?
Simple: That's where the Babylon stations were built. Valen knew this, and he knew that in order for Sinclair to go back in time, there had to be the Great Machine to control (and probably even create) the time distortion in Sector 14. Thus, the Great Machine was constructed for the express purpose of sending B4 back in time, so that the Minbari and the other younger races would have a base of operations, with Valen at the helm.
What d'ya think?
[B]I'm pretty much absolutely certain that it wasn't the Shadows. For one, their tech tends to have the effect of subsuming the personality of whoever's plugged in.
There's very little doubt in my mind that it's Vorlon tech, and here's why:
What d'ya think? [/B][/QUOTE]
I never considered the last point you made... yes, with that considered, I agree that it must be a Vorlon-made device.
However, I still find it interesting how much it resembles the device described in the Technomage trilogy. Shadow and Vorlon technologies are very similar, with the only difference being how they are 'powered', in a manner of speaking.
it probably is unknown but most of you read the b5 books so maybe there's an answer-
what was written on the transport ships, and for what purpose was it written for? is there a purpose?
i'm talking about both cases, 1st there's a part when kosh1 coms with the ships and the text is written, 2nd time that happens is when the kosh2's ship flies up and writes the text when sheridan observes
[img]http://slylendro.3d-life.com/riku/vlang1.jpg[/img]
[img]http://slylendro.3d-life.com/riku/vlang2.jpg[/img]
ahh btw why in the gathering kosh's ship got out of a orange jumpgate while it should be blue?
my thought was that it was that way for a purpose since the ships got out form hyperspace backward, in a way of entering hyperspace. but the 2nd transport ship entered normally through a blue...
-riku
[B]
ahh btw why in the gathering kosh's ship got out of a orange jumpgate while it should be blue?[/B][/QUOTE]
Because they hadn't quite worked out the special effects yet, so both the jumppoints were an odd shade of orange. This is also why the cobra bays on Babylon 5 have no doors, or markings of any kind, why there is no motion blur, making the ships look like stop motion, and why Epsilon 3 looks so different (and has moons).
First ship:
stee pugh
__v
(underscores added by me for justification)
Given the position of the v, it's tempting to read this as:
Steve Pugh
Steve Pugh is the name of a guy who worked on the show, credited as a "System Engineer" (according to the Lurker's Guide). However, I wasn't able to find a credit for him on that particular episode ("Hunter, Prey" if I'm not mistaken), nor for any episode previous to that one, so it's possible that whoever designed the font I'm using did so afterwards and decided to make the lettering on the Vorlon ship spell "Steve Pugh."
Or, it could all just be coincidence.
Here's what I get for the second ship:
john .esma
I should note here that the s there is uncertain, but given the first word, this certainly looks like another name to me.
the "S" you mentioned is quite similar to the question mark. In fact, it's the same, except for the last bar, which is deleted (though the dot remains)
[img]http://sanfam.rh.rit.edu/vorlon.gif[/img]
The left is what I could take from it. The right, JOHN .E? M A converted to vorlon characters.
john .e?ma
or
john .e? Ka
I was just thinking maybe the machines are even older then the firstones.
if theres one on zahadum and on E3 and if it was shadow tech theyfore there would be NO way the vorlons would have let B5 be built there. NO WAY.
So maybe they were built by Loriens race before the firstones, or even by another race, the firstones to the firstones. (may not be far off if the level of a firstone is roughly a million years and the universe is billions there could be a whole lot of firsone level beings out there)
Or another thought i had is maybe E3's purpose is that of a communications for the firstones. So they can all stay in contact or something. But it was designed for Comm, and thats why it can so easily steal transmissions LIGHT years away.
It's Steve Pugh and John Teska, both employees of Foundation Imaging... :D
(or were anyway....) :p
...from one who knows...
;)
Steve used to sign his emails with
Stee Pugh
....v
The two e's make up eyes, and the v makes up a nose/smile/bird bill...
:D
[img]http://oakhurst.net/~alien/MISC/fisplash.jpg[/img] [img]http://oakhurst.net/~alien/MISC/Jack_FI.jpg[/img]