SB, that may very well apply to a large scale situation where ideologies are in question. But when you're in a dark alley with a speedmonster who may have a knife, gun, or just his plain old psychotic-level aggression, it's do or die. Either you do, and toss your ideologies out the window and consider nothing else than the wellbeing of yourself over the wellbeing of some moron who wants to kill you for no reason, or you most likely die.
If you have someone with you who is less than capable of protecting him/herself it gets that much worse, and that much more critical for you to put your ideologies aside.
I can't tell you you're wrong if you die for your ideologies, that's up to you. But if a fellow human being is unwillingly put at risk because of them, you can bet your ass that's not right.
Take the situation of your (un)friendly neighborhood speedmonster or plain old thug. You may think that solving things the Rambo way will work. The truth is, noone can tell anything for certain about a confrontation if it comes down to a fight. There are simply too many variables. If you step in and get killed, there will be two bodies on the street. What have you accomplished?
I can tell you, even with several years of training in realistic personal defense, that I wouldn't do anything directly. I would call the cops and if there was a bar or something similar nearby I'd get some help. The odds on your own are lousy no matter what kind of training or lack thereof you have. Even with a gun, you may hesitate, you may not have the time to draw, it might jam (Murphy), anything could happen. So in conclusion, you had better not be ready to step in unless you're ready to go down or spend the rest of your life on tubes. It's a fucked up way to have to think, but in this world there is no other option.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JackN [/i]
[B]It's all those 1000's of people who are decaying in those mass graves that I give a shit about...
[/B][/QUOTE]
I am with you on that.
However, let's not forget the thousands who died during the war (and remember it wasn't even the first).
[url]www.iraqbodycount.net[/url]
a: The thousands Saddam and his sons kills for kicks. Such as Uday taking some troops into a city and killing everyone there because he felt like it.
b: Iraqi resitance groups that hate the fact that US soldiers are ocupying Iraq, and blowing themselves up in crowded areas where they will kill both US and Iraqi people, or just one or they other.
Yes, US servicmen have probably killed some civilians, but not anywhere NEAR the numbers that Iraqi people have killed themselves.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by shadow boxer [/i]
[B][url]http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/12/14/1071336807025.html[/url]
spooky shit... got this link in an email a few hours later
~~~~
Tyvar, where does the 'present' end and the future begin? By carrying a weapon you simply continue the cycle, no matter how noble your heart. Your actions will determine what happens. By carrying a gun for 'defence' you simply re-enforce the mindset, promote fear, promote the 'us and them' mentality.
Ghandi didn't have an Uzi...
and he faced off one of the largest militaries in the world...
I] [/B][/QUOTE]
By making that choice, you can allow yourself to be a victom and gain NOTHING. Ghandi succeded based on a carefully calculated campaign of disobeidance which DID include some violence (mainly various forms of sabotage, but people did get hurt), but he also knew his opponents, and that they would be unwilling to use draconian levels of force.
The English government was a rather progressive and humane government, now if you had taken Ghandi and put him up against Stalin's regime or the current chiense communist regieme, Ghandi's movement falls. Or do you not rember Tienamen square?
Im sorry SB, your idealism is fine, but it doesnt match reality, a reality where if I am NOT prepared to use violence, myself or most importantly other innocents WILL die?
Lastly, my decision to carry does not create that us versus them mind set, it is others actions around me. I am bound by the rules of my community (and yes I can legaly carry due to those rules) It is others actions who set themselves out side of others who set themselves outside those rules, who break the trust that we all have in each other as common members of the community. It is their rejecting my fellowship and choosing to exploit me or others which creates that "us versus them" mentality.
I know several people who carry concealed, one of them is the friend who I mentioned previously who was in the stop and rob, he's never had to draw his gun now, and if he was put in that sitution again, he'd do what he did last time... which is [I]get the fuck out of there[/I] But he has it in case things go horribly, horribly wrong. He will have at least something resembling a ghost of a chance.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CurZ [/i]
[B]
I can tell you, even with several years of training in realistic personal defense, that I wouldn't do anything directly. I would call the cops and if there was a bar or something similar nearby I'd get some help. The odds on your own are lousy no matter what kind of training or lack thereof you have. Even with a gun, you may hesitate, you may not have the time to draw, it might jam (Murphy), anything could happen. So in conclusion, you had better not be ready to step in unless you're ready to go down or spend the rest of your life on tubes. It's a fucked up way to have to think, but in this world there is no other option. [/B][/QUOTE]
Exactly thats the one thing the hammer in my states CHL classes, if you draw the gun, things are already irretrivable, somebody will die. Its what you do when you cant talk out of it, run out of it, or anything. You cant use the gun to bluff in my state, you draw it just to frighten, its menacing and you get in trouble. When you draw its because you are utterly fearfull for your own life or the life of someone else, and you dont have time for the authorties to get there.
I understand what SBs point is, he thinks by carrying your giving into the fear and helping to create the climate that he is raging about. I dont buy his analysis at all, the weapon and knowledge of the potential to violence isnt what is destroying western society, hell western society was most cohesive amongst its warrior tribes periods and citizin militia periods, no its the belief of self supremecy, which I think is tottally unrealated to the other issues.
siddown and scab some soda and popcorn and shut up... :)
(allthough the pic is funny..:D )
~~~~
Im glad youve finally made some important distinctions Tyvar...
Guns are for what you describe, the absolute and considered, 'last option'. If you have a gun, and you do draw it, you're more than likely going to fire it, and probably at someone with whom reason and discussion are impossible.
I still maintain that the psychology involved is the key... theres something defective in the US psyche when it comes to weapons and esp guns. As I keep saying, as a rule of thumb...and I wish this really was an exageration...
"Hey... for fucks sake that was the last beer! " BOOM ! "You wont be drinking anymore of my beer now..."
This stupid 'strutting cock' mentality... the 'penis-gun' complex... while there are a great deal of genuinely sane and rational people with guns... there are far too many of the above who completely undo thier good work.
Blame the media, blame whomever.. but gun saturation and bad attitudes towards guns seem pretty danged prevalent in the US. What are the figures now ? 2.5 guns per person in the US ?
What am I thinking.. of course every crib should have a nice Sig .22 stapped to the side.. those evil baby sitters... a baby just cant be too careful these days...
~~~
btw : I own guns, I love cordite in my nostrils and I love the engineering associated with guns.
~~~
and still... the underlying social pressures, or lack of positive social pressure makes gun abuse much much more possible, no community = no respect for each other = caps in each others arse
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by shadow boxer [/i]
[B]
and still... the underlying social pressures, or lack of positive social pressure makes gun abuse much much more possible, no community = no respect for each other = caps in each others arse [/B][/QUOTE]
Now we fargin agree! And its not just the US, if you look at europe their crime rates are experiensing slow, but steady expansion, and will eventually match the US.. its the social issues that make things go wrong and its those we need to fix, because then once those suckers are fixed I can put my guns away.
Lastly you are slightly exagurating, the last time I checked the statistics we have a nation wide murder rate of about 6.5 per 100,000 versus a european average around 4 per 100,000.. Its higher, but other places in the world are still a hell of alot more violent.
Strange though is that our suicide rate is way below that of most european nations..
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Tyvar [/i]
[B] Strange though is that our suicide rate is way below that of most european nations.. [/B][/QUOTE]
I don't see it as too odd.
At the very least, climate issues can greatly impact this. Europe has dense population zones in the northern regions, which during the winter have very low levels of light. As has been shown time and time again, a lack of light can bring on depression, and from that, the possibility of suicide. At least, that's how I see it.
I was discounding the nordic countries actually, thinking mostly of Belgium, Holland, Germany, France, I cant rember about Italy and spains at the moment.
As for lattitude, how to they stack up against the canadian rates? the lattitude should be about the same shouldnt it? I need to check that.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Sanfam [/i]
[B]As has been shown time and time again, a lack of light can bring on depression, and from that, the possibility of suicide.[/B][/QUOTE]
So... Does the opposite extreme do the opposite also?
Too much Light brings on Oppression, which leads to homocide?
Comments
Your right, this one IS more entertaining to watch then to get involved in!
(That said, I am the type that would dive into the allyway brawl to help out...)
[B]*Grabs a handful of popcorn and sits back*
Your right, this one IS more entertaining to watch then to get involved in!
(That said, I am the type that would dive into the allyway brawl to help out...) [/B][/QUOTE]
*Hands A2597 and Bekken a large Coke each*
You're right, normally in conversations of thisw nature I'd chip in, but this a really good discussion. :)
Regards,
Morden
If you have someone with you who is less than capable of protecting him/herself it gets that much worse, and that much more critical for you to put your ideologies aside.
I can't tell you you're wrong if you die for your ideologies, that's up to you. But if a fellow human being is unwillingly put at risk because of them, you can bet your ass that's not right.
Take the situation of your (un)friendly neighborhood speedmonster or plain old thug. You may think that solving things the Rambo way will work. The truth is, noone can tell anything for certain about a confrontation if it comes down to a fight. There are simply too many variables. If you step in and get killed, there will be two bodies on the street. What have you accomplished?
I can tell you, even with several years of training in realistic personal defense, that I wouldn't do anything directly. I would call the cops and if there was a bar or something similar nearby I'd get some help. The odds on your own are lousy no matter what kind of training or lack thereof you have. Even with a gun, you may hesitate, you may not have the time to draw, it might jam (Murphy), anything could happen. So in conclusion, you had better not be ready to step in unless you're ready to go down or spend the rest of your life on tubes. It's a fucked up way to have to think, but in this world there is no other option.
[B]It's all those 1000's of people who are decaying in those mass graves that I give a shit about...
[/B][/QUOTE]
I am with you on that.
However, let's not forget the thousands who died during the war (and remember it wasn't even the first).
[url]www.iraqbodycount.net[/url]
a: The thousands Saddam and his sons kills for kicks. Such as Uday taking some troops into a city and killing everyone there because he felt like it.
b: Iraqi resitance groups that hate the fact that US soldiers are ocupying Iraq, and blowing themselves up in crowded areas where they will kill both US and Iraqi people, or just one or they other.
Yes, US servicmen have probably killed some civilians, but not anywhere NEAR the numbers that Iraqi people have killed themselves.
[B][url]http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/12/14/1071336807025.html[/url]
spooky shit... got this link in an email a few hours later
~~~~
Tyvar, where does the 'present' end and the future begin? By carrying a weapon you simply continue the cycle, no matter how noble your heart. Your actions will determine what happens. By carrying a gun for 'defence' you simply re-enforce the mindset, promote fear, promote the 'us and them' mentality.
Ghandi didn't have an Uzi...
and he faced off one of the largest militaries in the world...
I] [/B][/QUOTE]
By making that choice, you can allow yourself to be a victom and gain NOTHING. Ghandi succeded based on a carefully calculated campaign of disobeidance which DID include some violence (mainly various forms of sabotage, but people did get hurt), but he also knew his opponents, and that they would be unwilling to use draconian levels of force.
The English government was a rather progressive and humane government, now if you had taken Ghandi and put him up against Stalin's regime or the current chiense communist regieme, Ghandi's movement falls. Or do you not rember Tienamen square?
Im sorry SB, your idealism is fine, but it doesnt match reality, a reality where if I am NOT prepared to use violence, myself or most importantly other innocents WILL die?
Lastly, my decision to carry does not create that us versus them mind set, it is others actions around me. I am bound by the rules of my community (and yes I can legaly carry due to those rules) It is others actions who set themselves out side of others who set themselves outside those rules, who break the trust that we all have in each other as common members of the community. It is their rejecting my fellowship and choosing to exploit me or others which creates that "us versus them" mentality.
I know several people who carry concealed, one of them is the friend who I mentioned previously who was in the stop and rob, he's never had to draw his gun now, and if he was put in that sitution again, he'd do what he did last time... which is [I]get the fuck out of there[/I] But he has it in case things go horribly, horribly wrong. He will have at least something resembling a ghost of a chance.
[B]
I can tell you, even with several years of training in realistic personal defense, that I wouldn't do anything directly. I would call the cops and if there was a bar or something similar nearby I'd get some help. The odds on your own are lousy no matter what kind of training or lack thereof you have. Even with a gun, you may hesitate, you may not have the time to draw, it might jam (Murphy), anything could happen. So in conclusion, you had better not be ready to step in unless you're ready to go down or spend the rest of your life on tubes. It's a fucked up way to have to think, but in this world there is no other option. [/B][/QUOTE]
Exactly thats the one thing the hammer in my states CHL classes, if you draw the gun, things are already irretrivable, somebody will die. Its what you do when you cant talk out of it, run out of it, or anything. You cant use the gun to bluff in my state, you draw it just to frighten, its menacing and you get in trouble. When you draw its because you are utterly fearfull for your own life or the life of someone else, and you dont have time for the authorties to get there.
I understand what SBs point is, he thinks by carrying your giving into the fear and helping to create the climate that he is raging about. I dont buy his analysis at all, the weapon and knowledge of the potential to violence isnt what is destroying western society, hell western society was most cohesive amongst its warrior tribes periods and citizin militia periods, no its the belief of self supremecy, which I think is tottally unrealated to the other issues.
thanks for the soda man!
[B]*grabs a tub of popcorn*
Damn... you're both making extraordinarily good points. I'm impressed! [/B][/QUOTE]
And what else are you doing James?
Get that CD yet? :p
[IMG]http://www.shakefist.net/images/certain.jpg[/IMG]
siddown and scab some soda and popcorn and shut up... :)
(allthough the pic is funny..:D )
~~~~
Im glad youve finally made some important distinctions Tyvar...
Guns are for what you describe, the absolute and considered, 'last option'. If you have a gun, and you do draw it, you're more than likely going to fire it, and probably at someone with whom reason and discussion are impossible.
I still maintain that the psychology involved is the key... theres something defective in the US psyche when it comes to weapons and esp guns. As I keep saying, as a rule of thumb...and I wish this really was an exageration...
"Hey... for fucks sake that was the last beer! " BOOM ! "You wont be drinking anymore of my beer now..."
This stupid 'strutting cock' mentality... the 'penis-gun' complex... while there are a great deal of genuinely sane and rational people with guns... there are far too many of the above who completely undo thier good work.
Blame the media, blame whomever.. but gun saturation and bad attitudes towards guns seem pretty danged prevalent in the US. What are the figures now ? 2.5 guns per person in the US ?
What am I thinking.. of course every crib should have a nice Sig .22 stapped to the side.. those evil baby sitters... a baby just cant be too careful these days...
~~~
btw : I own guns, I love cordite in my nostrils and I love the engineering associated with guns.
~~~
and still... the underlying social pressures, or lack of positive social pressure makes gun abuse much much more possible, no community = no respect for each other = caps in each others arse
[B]*Hands A2597 and Bekken a large Coke each*[/B][/QUOTE]
Thanks!
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JackN [/i]
[B]And what else are you doing James?
Get that CD yet? :p[/B][/QUOTE]
My folks back home say yes! Thanks!
I'll be back in town probably Friday, so I'll have to wait until then to check it out.
[B]
and still... the underlying social pressures, or lack of positive social pressure makes gun abuse much much more possible, no community = no respect for each other = caps in each others arse [/B][/QUOTE]
Now we fargin agree! And its not just the US, if you look at europe their crime rates are experiensing slow, but steady expansion, and will eventually match the US.. its the social issues that make things go wrong and its those we need to fix, because then once those suckers are fixed I can put my guns away.
Lastly you are slightly exagurating, the last time I checked the statistics we have a nation wide murder rate of about 6.5 per 100,000 versus a european average around 4 per 100,000.. Its higher, but other places in the world are still a hell of alot more violent.
Strange though is that our suicide rate is way below that of most european nations..
[B] Strange though is that our suicide rate is way below that of most european nations.. [/B][/QUOTE]
I don't see it as too odd.
At the very least, climate issues can greatly impact this. Europe has dense population zones in the northern regions, which during the winter have very low levels of light. As has been shown time and time again, a lack of light can bring on depression, and from that, the possibility of suicide. At least, that's how I see it.
As for lattitude, how to they stack up against the canadian rates? the lattitude should be about the same shouldnt it? I need to check that.
[B]As has been shown time and time again, a lack of light can bring on depression, and from that, the possibility of suicide.[/B][/QUOTE]
So... Does the opposite extreme do the opposite also?
Too much Light brings on Oppression, which leads to homocide?
:p
its a catch 22. :)
[B] :D :D BTW, I'm STILL waiting Sanfam... :D :D [/B][/QUOTE]
Should I even ask?
[B]The picture of Hussein with his beard shaved off kinda makes him look like an old Mario. [/B][/QUOTE]
Mamma-Mia! :eek:
Regards,
Morden