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If a tree falls in the forest...
Arik
Galen's Apprentice
in Zocalo v2.0
I just had a curious thought about 5 minutes ago, did some brainstorming on it but kind of stuck now, so hopefully opening a thread here will help to come up with some new perspectives on the subject.... Before I get into too much detail, let me make it clear that I'm a software person by education so my education in philosophy or physics is minimal. Take everything I say with a grain of salt.
It all started when I thought about the concept of knowing when one is being watched. I think to some extent, everyone has experienced this feeling at least once in the lives. Regardless of where you are and what you are doing, somehow you just know that someone is watching you.
But what does it really mean, to be watched. Ultimately, a person's image is created when light rays are reflected, and then interpreted by another person's eyes to 'render' the reflected image as best a human mind can. That's where I get confused... since the light rays have already bounced off of me, and I no longer have contact with them, how can I tell that they are being interpreted by someone? [b]And that brings me to the question... how is it that I can I tell that I'm being watched?[/b]
Is it because I still have some residual connection to the light rays that bounced off of me?
Is it that I can feel the brain waves of the person watching me, because they are so focused on me they are projecting their attention?
Is it something else entirely?
Also, this ties into two other concepts.
1) There's an understanding (in quantum physics I believe though I could be wrong) that any experiment is flawed due to observation... that by observing our surroundings we influence that environment. Is that related to my questions above? Is this 'influence' derived from observation the same as what people pick up on a subconscious level while being watched?
2) If a tree falls in the forest and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound... this is kind of related to my question as well. Since no one is there to observe the event, but someone does eventually observe the fallen tree (otherwise how do we know it fell?), does that mean it never made a sound because we did not observe it? Or did it make a sound that was different than what it would've been were it under observation? I think this is getting too far into philosophy so I hope any discussion in this thread will mostly dwell on the above points, and to a lesser degree on this one... but just wanted to bring it up.
Oh, and even if you don't reply to this thread, thanks for reading this far!
It all started when I thought about the concept of knowing when one is being watched. I think to some extent, everyone has experienced this feeling at least once in the lives. Regardless of where you are and what you are doing, somehow you just know that someone is watching you.
But what does it really mean, to be watched. Ultimately, a person's image is created when light rays are reflected, and then interpreted by another person's eyes to 'render' the reflected image as best a human mind can. That's where I get confused... since the light rays have already bounced off of me, and I no longer have contact with them, how can I tell that they are being interpreted by someone? [b]And that brings me to the question... how is it that I can I tell that I'm being watched?[/b]
Is it because I still have some residual connection to the light rays that bounced off of me?
Is it that I can feel the brain waves of the person watching me, because they are so focused on me they are projecting their attention?
Is it something else entirely?
Also, this ties into two other concepts.
1) There's an understanding (in quantum physics I believe though I could be wrong) that any experiment is flawed due to observation... that by observing our surroundings we influence that environment. Is that related to my questions above? Is this 'influence' derived from observation the same as what people pick up on a subconscious level while being watched?
2) If a tree falls in the forest and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound... this is kind of related to my question as well. Since no one is there to observe the event, but someone does eventually observe the fallen tree (otherwise how do we know it fell?), does that mean it never made a sound because we did not observe it? Or did it make a sound that was different than what it would've been were it under observation? I think this is getting too far into philosophy so I hope any discussion in this thread will mostly dwell on the above points, and to a lesser degree on this one... but just wanted to bring it up.
Oh, and even if you don't reply to this thread, thanks for reading this far!
Comments
skipped=yes;
{
don't_bother_replying ();
}
Relating to 1), I think that only applies on the quantum scale, not the macro scale of, say, a tree in a forest or people.
For 2), it's going to disturb the air in the same way when it falls whether someone is there watching or not.
Help!
What is the scientific explanation behind that?
Seriously though, I don't think bouncing light rays have anything to do with the "seemingly" extrasensory perception of being watched.
I think it is more about awareness of your environement. As with forensic sciences, all events leave a trace, however microscopic. I think the subconscious (sp?) processes a lot of data coming in from all the senses...
Visual
Audio
Tactile
smell
etc...
It's quite possible in my mind that the close proximity of another living, thinking creature allows you to be "aware" of another entity that is transmitting various emmisions at a level that only the subconscious is aware of...
thus, you "know" that someone or something is watching you, but you really can't put your finger on it (pardon the pun)...
[B]JackN: I have considered that possibility. This holds true if you are alone with only one other person around, watching you. But what about being in a room full of people, where only one person in the crowd is watching your every move... there's a lot of 'background noise' there, and yet you could still pick it up. [/B][/QUOTE]
The human mind has an incredible ability to filter and focus on incoming data. It also has an incrdible ability to adapt to the loss of one or more senses... by compensating with others...
take people who are blind for instance. More often than not, while we feel sorry for their loss, they are quite content with how they've adapted...
Consider Autism (sp?) , like the Rainman in the same named movie, how he was able to count the toothpicks that fell to the floor in microseconds...
I think it's all about awareness... animals work on (what we consider) a lower level, and yet they are more highly aware of the world around them, especially with sense of smell. They can pull out a specific odor from billions of others and read the world around them from it.
If a tree does fall in the forest, it does make a sound...
... because the guys over at CalTech heard it on their siesmographs...
:p
not only that but it leaves forensic evidence of it's fall, and also physically affects things around it.
;)
Then({Make no sound} = False)
As for a person being able to sence when they are being watched, I think that comes from another aspect. Rather then the visual data of yourself being reflected back to you, it is more of a sixth sence, or a time when you are unusually in tune with your enviroment.
To me, it is simular to when watching a great tradgedy, time seems to slow down. Of course, time did not slow down for that single event, but rather you, sencing something major, sent a signal to your brain to "see" more. Rather then the usual 30 frames per second, you may have seen 60, or more. The human eye is capable of seeing MUCH more then 30 frames per second, there just usually isn't a need.
I think the same is true for your sixth sense of knowing when someone is watching you. Your hearing and sence of touch just became more attuned for whatever reason. Sound waves could be bouncing off the person, and your hearing gives you the shape of the person facing you. You cannot process the data, as well...it isn't normal. But you "sence" it anyway.
Actually, I've looked into the eye thing a fair amount, and talked to some experts. They agreed with me. Theoryetically, it would be possible to program the brain to always see more FPS, or to control it activly, such as your ability to focus. If the eye is capable of such things, it makes sence that other sences should be capable of more. A blind person has excellent hearing, and can tell when someone is approching. It it hearing, or if the persons movments affecting the air around them, and sending sonic vibrations back to the person that they can feel? Dunno, but it is possible either way
[B]if (did_not_read == true)
{
don't_bother_replying ();
}[/B][/QUOTE]
[code]
//more efficient code would look like this:
if(did_not_read==TRUE)
dont_bother_replying();
/* C/C++/C# don't need the braces if the if statement only has one action :p*/
[/code]
[code]
//so
#include"stdio.h"
int main(){
int persons_code;
int efficient=1;
int good_programmer_count=0;
int again=1;
while(again==1){
printf("\nIs the programmer's code efficient?\n1:Yes 2:No ");
scanf("%d", &persons_code);
if(persons_code==efficient+1)
printf("LOOOOOSER!\n");
else if(persons_code==efficient){
printf("YOU ARE SO COOL!\n");
good_programmer_count++;
}
else
printf("Ehhh...\n");
if(good_programmer_count==0)
printf("Oh well... no good programmers here...\n");
else
printf("At least there's %d good programmer(s) here....\n", good_programmer_count);
printf("Again?\n1:Yes 2:No ");
scanf("%d", &again);
}
printf("OVER AND OUT!\n");
}
[/code]
.....................^ hurts
:rolleyes:
[B][code]
//more efficient code would look like this:
if(did_not_read==TRUE)
dont_bother_replying();
/* C/C++/C# don't need the braces if the if statement only has one action :p*/
[/code]
Actually, that's not entirely true... the better way to do it, assuming dont_bother_replying() is a valid function that returns a boolean or null, would be...
boolean dont_bother = (did_not_read) ? dont_bother_replying() : false;
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As far as the human perception, I agree, but what bothers me is that we keep referring to it as a sixth sense and other similar terms... isn't it something similar to wireless communication between individuals? And as such, could it be enhanced, and what's the limit?
Now, on the other hand, your nice long program is considerably lacking in clarity due to poor indentation and lack of white space between unrelated bodies. Plus it isn't necessarily efficient since you use an entire integer for two variables that could be done with a boolean (if you're using a C++ compiler, which it looks like you are since you used C++ comments), or an unsigned byte if in C.
[B]To me, it is simular to when watching a great tradgedy, time seems to slow down. Of course, time did not slow down for that single event, but rather you, sencing something major, sent a signal to your brain to "see" more. Rather then the usual 30 frames per second, you may have seen 60, or more. The human eye is capable of seeing MUCH more then 30 frames per second, there just usually isn't a need.[/B][/QUOTE]
About seven, eight years ago there was one pretty windy day (well, more propably storm) and I was outside on yard to watch it when I saw something on a edge of field of vision and heard some kind of sound, somehow I intantly knew what was happening and turned to watch "spectacle". It was wind severing old birch to half. It seemed to take ten seconds for top of tree to fall to ground.
Also have anyone of you played pingpong?
If you have then you know that when you have played it little and get going good you can still strike the ball even when it's going so fast it's hard to see it (consciously). It feels like you're just watching and something other is controlling your movements.
And about feeling that someone is behind you and watching you, I think it could be that very weak sounds deviating from "continuous background sound" could trigger it and explain part of this phenomenon.
Human hearing can be very good.
There's railroad at distance about 300 metres where I live and there goes also trains late at night. Sometimes when I am still wake I can hear train so clearly and loudly that it feels like it's driving beside my bed.
Isn't it also that scientist think when we are doing something consciously brains are almost "idling".
[B]Logic: You're complaining about my lack of efficiency? There is no loss in efficiency of the actual code if it's just a couple of extra braces. The compiled code will still run. You just gain a little clarity, although generally with a single line body for an if statement it's not really needed.
Now, on the other hand, your nice long program is considerably lacking in clarity due to poor indentation and lack of white space between unrelated bodies. Plus it isn't necessarily efficient since you use an entire integer for two variables that could be done with a boolean (if you're using a C++ compiler, which it looks like you are since you used C++ comments), or an unsigned byte if in C. [/B][/QUOTE]
hmmm where to start.... is it just my imagination, or do i not see indentions and white space in my program??? i see lots of tabs, exactly where they're supposed to go. i used 2 integers for the point of the post, not entirely for efficiency, if u want me to re-write it entirely efficiently, by all means let me know, and i will do so. and by the way, it's entirely written in C, not C++, not C#. :)
As for your indentation: you indented the while loop but not the function body, which makes finding separate functions a difficult task in my opinion. But indentation is one of those things that starts holy wars among programmers, so we'll leave that there.
[B]
And about feeling that someone is behind you and watching you, I think it could be that very weak sounds deviating from "continuous background sound" could trigger it and explain part of this phenomenon.[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm with ET here. If I would have to explain it, it would be something like this:
The human hearing has a 360 degree range around your head. On both sides where your ears (usually) are the hearing is the strongest, but the range is still 360 degrees. Usually when someone is in the range to observe what you're doing in person, the person usually stands still or moves in a closed area where he can view what you're doing. This creates a 'block' for the background noise, as you register subconsciously that some sounds coming from direction x are more muffled than they should be. Your brain fires some synapses and reach an understanding that there is some sort of blockage where there previously was none. Now stairways, walls or cupboards (usually) don't roam around of their own free will so human beings are the cause of this. Your brain interprets that someone stopped walking and is standing behind you, probably watching you, what the hell would the geek do otherwise?
This requires an experience model from the place you 'feel you are watched in'. So in other words, you have to be in a familiar surrounding. If you go to place that is unfamiliar to you, you feel that you're watched all the time. For example, public computers in libraries. Everyone's paranoid while using them. For a reason.
The subconscious works in amazing ways, the sound system being only one aspect of the whole of understanding your surroundings. Other aspects that the conscious mind is too ill-aware to notice are pressure changes, minimal ground tremor, room temperatures rising and other changes that tell your body what's going on. You don't register them as such, but you 'feel' them. As in. 'I can feel it'. Can't explain it, but you can feel it. The sensory array combined probably goes as far as noticing minor colour changes in lighting or so, prompting you to take action if you feel uncomfortable near an open window, making you feel like you can be watched. Closing the curtains solves this issue.
So all in all I think it's a subconscius failsafe from the less-civilised (subject for debate) days when survival was the main concern of everyday life. Registering your environment and coping with it.
And I do believe some people possess the genuine sixth sense, being more tuned to their environments both in the physical sense, and in the yet-to-be-explained-by-science -field being able to sense the brainwaves radiating from other people. Auras, if you like.
If you can sense it, you can feel it. If you can feel it, you can picture it. If you can picture it, you can almost see it. If you can see it, you can read it. If you can read it...
Well, P-ratings, anyone?
[B]And I do believe some people possess the genuine sixth sense, being more tuned to their environments both in the physical sense, and in the yet-to-be-explained-by-science -field being able to sense the brainwaves radiating from other people.[/B][/QUOTE]
One of the "weirdest" is one dream which my friend saw about ten years ago when we were in elementary school.
The dream was about traffic accident happening in one crossroad about five kilometers from his home.
In couple months there really was accident in this crossroad that killed two people. (or three, I don't remember it exactly anymore)