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six axes to grind
shadow boxer
The Finger Painter & Master Ranter
in Babylon 5
We all love the 'Fury's ability to fly as Newton intended...
but man... I've been bangin my head against the old problem of taking advantage of a Furies capabilties properly... which is not something you can do with any joystick/controller I know of on the market today.
How does one create an intuitive and easy way of making a Fury, or any other similar 'real' ship do as its told via an input source ?
The added frustration is trying to make it just one device... two sticks... pedals etc all make it prohibitive for most gamers to use more than one input.
I have however think I've nailed down the way to get there, not necessarily that actual device...
To my mind you first have to prioritize the directions/axes and they should be split into primary, secondary and teritary groups.
So the base 12 ways to go are :
Thrusts : ( moving the craft )
Forrid thrust
Reverse thrust
Left thrust
Right thrust
Up thrust
Down thrust
AOA (pointing the craft(angles of attack))
Pitch up
Pitch down
Yaw left
Yaw right
Slew left
Slew Right
As far as I can see, given that even in space things are essentially planar and we seem to need to think in a planar fashion so as not to get too overwhelmed that the breakdown should be as so.
Primary controls :
Forrid thrust
Reverse thrust
Thrust left
Thrust right
Secondary controls :
Pitch Up
Pitch Down
Slew Left
Slew Right
Teritary controls :
Yaw left
Yaw right
Thrust up
Thrust down
Now try mapping all that onto a joystick... we've all seen the compromises made and the old SW engine flying mode designed for ITF.
I think we can do better, even if it means creating/modifying a control system.
My thoughts were to have the primary and secondary controls mapped for instant access... say like a traditional joystick...
holding, lets say the pinkie button on your joystick, accesses the teritary controls...
for instance :
'Stick left' changes from 'Slew left' to 'Yaw left' and 'Stick forward' changes from 'Forrid thrust' to 'Up thrust'.
If we take that as a given then have to deal with 8 ways to go.
If I continue with the joystick similar device then how the hell do you get AOA and thrusts onto the same stick ?
The only real way I can see at the moment is to have an extremely good hatswitch. Having a hatswitch which is effectively another tiny joystick on the larger one. Make it digital and pressure or 'degrees of change' sensitive and give it a tiny rubberised hood to make it much like a half depth thimble..and perhaps even a rubber stud to offer grip to the pad of your thumb... so as to gain enough sensitivity and control, to use it for the AOA. That leaves the thrusts to the actual stick.
Or, reverse that pattern... Thrusts controlled by the Hyperhat and AOA controlled by the stick...
I prefer the earlier version because the plane of your screen is the same as the AOA controls so they mesh very well.
Anyone seen anything close to a hyperhat ?
As far as I know a joystick is really only a pair of potentiometers. If they were small enough I cant see why a couple of them couldnt be put into the head of a joystick. Then its simply a matter of ergonomic/industrial design to get the thumb control right...
Any peripheral engineers out there ?
Comments please folks.
but man... I've been bangin my head against the old problem of taking advantage of a Furies capabilties properly... which is not something you can do with any joystick/controller I know of on the market today.
How does one create an intuitive and easy way of making a Fury, or any other similar 'real' ship do as its told via an input source ?
The added frustration is trying to make it just one device... two sticks... pedals etc all make it prohibitive for most gamers to use more than one input.
I have however think I've nailed down the way to get there, not necessarily that actual device...
To my mind you first have to prioritize the directions/axes and they should be split into primary, secondary and teritary groups.
So the base 12 ways to go are :
Thrusts : ( moving the craft )
Forrid thrust
Reverse thrust
Left thrust
Right thrust
Up thrust
Down thrust
AOA (pointing the craft(angles of attack))
Pitch up
Pitch down
Yaw left
Yaw right
Slew left
Slew Right
As far as I can see, given that even in space things are essentially planar and we seem to need to think in a planar fashion so as not to get too overwhelmed that the breakdown should be as so.
Primary controls :
Forrid thrust
Reverse thrust
Thrust left
Thrust right
Secondary controls :
Pitch Up
Pitch Down
Slew Left
Slew Right
Teritary controls :
Yaw left
Yaw right
Thrust up
Thrust down
Now try mapping all that onto a joystick... we've all seen the compromises made and the old SW engine flying mode designed for ITF.
I think we can do better, even if it means creating/modifying a control system.
My thoughts were to have the primary and secondary controls mapped for instant access... say like a traditional joystick...
holding, lets say the pinkie button on your joystick, accesses the teritary controls...
for instance :
'Stick left' changes from 'Slew left' to 'Yaw left' and 'Stick forward' changes from 'Forrid thrust' to 'Up thrust'.
If we take that as a given then have to deal with 8 ways to go.
If I continue with the joystick similar device then how the hell do you get AOA and thrusts onto the same stick ?
The only real way I can see at the moment is to have an extremely good hatswitch. Having a hatswitch which is effectively another tiny joystick on the larger one. Make it digital and pressure or 'degrees of change' sensitive and give it a tiny rubberised hood to make it much like a half depth thimble..and perhaps even a rubber stud to offer grip to the pad of your thumb... so as to gain enough sensitivity and control, to use it for the AOA. That leaves the thrusts to the actual stick.
Or, reverse that pattern... Thrusts controlled by the Hyperhat and AOA controlled by the stick...
I prefer the earlier version because the plane of your screen is the same as the AOA controls so they mesh very well.
Anyone seen anything close to a hyperhat ?
As far as I know a joystick is really only a pair of potentiometers. If they were small enough I cant see why a couple of them couldnt be put into the head of a joystick. Then its simply a matter of ergonomic/industrial design to get the thumb control right...
Any peripheral engineers out there ?
Comments please folks.
Comments
Hat Switch: trust up,down,left,right.
rudder: pitch left/right
main stick: pitch up/down, rotate left/right
works for me. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
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[b]whitestar90: [/b]"it would give the computer a heartattack just looking at it" -
[b]Sanfam: [/b]"And Drazi didn't like it one bit.-
[b]Mr.Bungle: [/b][i]"So that's where the forum went..."[/i]-
---
[b][i]ahhh, the good old days of HTML.[/i][/b]
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
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Chase
Web Hosting Provider for FirstOnes.com [url="http://www.radiusco.com/"]http://www.radiusco.com/[/url]
test
[This message has been edited by Sanfam (edited 12-02-2001).]
Actually, I've been looking at a three-component setup for my flight rig. One home-made throttle quadrant, one store-purchased joystick, and one home-made rudder.
Now, I was just thinking something:
Saitek Manufactures an adjustable joystick known as the Cyborg. I could get two of these, have one linked to the directional thrusters and the other linked to the rotational thrusters. The Adjustable part of these is designed in such a manner as to make the joystick compatible with both left and right handed playing styles, as well as smaller and larger grips. I could simply buy the pair, set one for my right hand, one for my left, and like magic, it works. And they are available with a USB connection.
Flightsim.com posted a tutorial on how to make your own Throttle quadrant and Rudder pedals. I can imagine that this would be very handy for games such as ITF. Imagine being able to precisely control each of the four engines, with full reversing ability.
The only problem is that if you do make a four-engine throttle quadrant, you lose the home-made rudders, which means you'd have to buy something else, unless you have two gameports. Right now, this is all assuming you have one, which would force you to use the other devices through USB (which isn't bad at all).
Mentioned Links:
Rudder construction: [url="http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds/main/howto/rud/rud1.htm"]http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds/main/howto/rud/rud1.htm[/url]
Throttle Construction: [url="http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds/main/howto/dualthr.htm"]http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds/main/howto/dualthr.htm[/url]
[This message has been edited by Sanfam (edited 12-02-2001).]
Worf
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Captain Gideon: I thought you said you dont hold a grudge?
Galen: I dont, I have no surviving enemies...at all
Ave Primo-Populi (Hail the Firstones)
pitch - right joystick x-axis
yaw - right joystick y-axis
roll - right joystick r-axis
slew left/right - left joystick x-axis
slew up/down - left joystick y-axis
thrust forward/backward - left joystick throttle
And I should say it's overkill. One axis was always slipping from my attention. When I tried to use only 5 axes (I changed forward/backward thrust to left joystick y-axis) it went much better. So now I'm pretty sure that 5 axes of control is just enough...
from a practical 'selling' point of view... one stick makes better sense if its possible.
Joysticks aint really that cheap...
and put it this way... if a good six axes stick was sold as a package with ITF.. how hard would that rock !
no comments on the practical application of a single stick ?
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
On the Stick:
The 8-way hat would be for POV
The stick would handle:Pitch-up
Pitch down
Slew right/left
or
yaw right/left
The 4-way hat would handle:right/left thrust
thrust up/down
The throttle would handle forward/backward thrust and the 4-way hat on the throttle would handle the slew or yaw (which ever one you didn't map to the stick).
That would be my solution.
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"And there is nothing more dangerous then a man with nothing to lose. Nothing to live for and nothing to prove."
[i]Brendan Perry, Dead Can Dance[/i]
-R.
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[i]"...Never start a fight...but [b]always[/b] finish it."[/i]
How does an axe help in controlling a Star Fury?
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
Orientation (Left Hand):
[list]
[*]i - pitch down
[*]k - pitch up
[*]j - rotate left
[*]l - rotate right
[*]u - roll left
[*]o - roll right
[/list]
Transalation (Right Hand):
[list]
[*]r - thrust forward
[*]d - thrust backwards
[*]s - slide left
[*]f - slide right
[*]q - slide up
[*]a - slide down
[/list]
Place your index fingers on f and j. The rest follows naturally, IMHO.
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bobo
<*>
B5:ITF
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras