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G'Kar, Londo & the Narn-Centauri War

I've noticed that in post-Season 2, G'Kar never failed to take the opportunity to remind Londo of the latter's participation in the start of the Narn-Centauri War.

Yet, he and the other residents of the stations (especially Ivanova and Garibaldi) failed to remember how G'Kar's actions against the Centauri pushed Londo into making that deal with Morden and the Shadows.

I'm not trying to excuse Londo. He had a lot to answer for. But I think G'Kar need to take some of the blame. Instead of putting the earlier Centauri occupation behind him, G'Kar indulged in getting revenge. He acted just as Sinclair had described him and the Narns - an abused child who becomes an abuser. In the end, G'Kar's thirst for revenge backfired on him.

Perhaps in the end, this desire for revenge against past wrongs, is why the Centauri and the Narns failed to become First Ones.

Comments

  • Admiral AndyAdmiral Andy Earthforce Officer
    I'm confused. The Narn and Centauri and every race younger then the Minbari and Soul Hunters aren't First Ones at all.

    The First Ones pertain to the races that first achieved sentience, namely the Walkers of Sigma 957, Vorlons, etc.

    Yeah, it is kind of funny how no one takes into account that G'Kar pushed Londo into the alliance with Morden. Poor Londo, such a tragic character. I'm glad they kill Shiv'kala.
  • I think Claudia was refering to a comment JMS made about the future of the B5 universe. IIRC he sated that millions of years in the future the Minbari and the Humans became the new gardians of the new races while for some reason or another the Narn and Centarui didn't.

    ------------------
    "Ambassador we all know that the first casulty of war is the truth."
    -John Sheridan

    "To alcohol the solution to and cause of all of life's problems."
    -Homer Jay Simpson
  • Yeah, that's it. Wasn't that mentioned in the last episode of Season 4?
  • Nope, the ep you are thinking about "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars" was an epilogue of sorts since JMS at the time didn't know if there was going to be a 5th season. It showed a human that strangley resembled a Vorlon leave Sol just before Sol went nova a million years in the future. (side note the ship seen exiting the system had a ranger logo on it). That ep said nothing about the fate of any races beyond the fact that humans had now relocated to the former vorlon homeworld. (thats a personal opinion of mine backed up by several pieces of evidence that i will talk about if asked.)
    What i was refering to was a comment JMS made on a message board about the ultimate fate of the b5 races.

    ------------------
    "Ambassador we all know that the first casulty of war is the truth."
    -John Sheridan

    "To alcohol the solution to and cause of all of life's problems."
    -Homer Jay Simpson
  • BigglesBiggles <font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
    [i]The Deconstruction of Falling Stars[/i] was the last episode of season 4. It may have been an epilogue of sorts, but it played as the final episode of 4.

    And why is it that newbies these days don't just announce themselves, they have to actually make a meaningfull topic? [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]



    ------------------
    [b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
    Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
    The Balance provides. The Balance protects.

    "Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
  • [quote]Originally posted by Claudia Trent:
    [b]Perhaps in the end, this desire for revenge against past wrongs, is why the Centauri and the Narns failed to become First Ones.[/b][/quote]

    Hi Claudia,

    Kosh: 'They are a dying people. Leave them alone.'
    Sheridan(?): 'Who? The Narn or the Centauri?'
    Kosh: 'Yes.'
    (I don't remember the exact words)

    While that may have to do with them being under Shadows influence, it might as well mean that they will not be able to reach a certain level of evolution. Who knows?

    ------------------
    We are one. No matter the blood, no matter the skin, no matter the world, no matter the star. .. We are one.
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    - Alliance Preamble to the Declaration of Principles, The Paragon of Animals
    Webmaster [url="http://www.Sprungtor.de"]www.Sprungtor.de[/url]
  • BigglesBiggles <font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
    That would explain it. They are too old-fashioned, basically. The Humans have their ability to form communities, save the galaxy, etc. The Minbari are capable of looking at the bigger picture, knowing what must be done and doing it, etc. The Narn and the Centauri don't really have much, at least at that point. The Centauri are looking to the past while the Narn can't get over the past. Only G'Kar was capable of showing the Narn there is more to life, and that wasn't until season 5.

    ------------------
    [b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
    Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
    The Balance provides. The Balance protects.

    "Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
  • MelkorMelkor Elite Ranger
    Agreed.. I think, though, that it has more to do with what Kosh said. I don't remember that ep...nor have I read any of the books. But it's probably a safe bet that because of the way the narn and centauri are, they've probably either A) killed each other off or B) blasted each other back to the stone age. I mean, it's kinda hard to become guardians when all your ships have been reduced to stories told around the camp fires by tired hunters who are feasting on the day's kill.
  • FreejackFreejack Jake the Not-so-Wise
    But remember the humans on earth were also blasted back to the stone age (or at least the bronze age) several hundred years after Sleeping in Light, during The Great Burn. At that time even gasoline is considered advanced technology.

    So the question that begs to be asked is why were the humans allowed to become a keeper of the galaxy if we almost destryed ourselves?

    Jake


    ------------------
    [i]This is crazy. I hope I haven't brain my damaged.[/i]

    I mean, if I went 'round saying I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
  • BigglesBiggles <font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
    Because we learnt from it. The Narn and Centauri just keep doing it again and again.

    ------------------
    [b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
    Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
    The Balance provides. The Balance protects.

    "Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
  • [quote]Originally posted by Freejack:
    [b]But remember the humans on earth were also blasted back to the stone age (or at least the bronze age) several hundred years after Sleeping in Light, during The Great Burn. At that time even gasoline is considered advanced technology.
    [/b][/quote]

    I don't think it was that bad, maybe back to a strange mix of industrial revolution and medevil tech.

    ------------------
    "Ambassador we all know that the first casulty of war is the truth."
    -John Sheridan

    "To alcohol the solution to and cause of all of life's problems."
    -Homer Jay Simpson
  • Didn't other species from the non-Aligned Worlds - the Drazi, Brakiri, etc., also become First Ones?

    And why didn't G'Kar ever admit to his own complicity in the start of the Narn-Centauri War, considering that Sinclair had warned him to make peace with the Centauri.
  • MessiahMessiah Failed Experiment
    As I remember it, we only ever hear about earth being bombed to the middle ages, not the entire human species...

    ------------------
    [b][i][url="http://www.dd.chalmers.se/~gu00mama/"]http://www.dd.chalmers.se/~gu00mama/[/url]
    Vir - Are you saying you don't trust me anymore? I made your favourite, Spoo.
    Londo - I'll order in.

    How can we possibly use sex to get what we want? Sex [/i]IS[i] what we want! - Frasier Crane[/i][/b]
  • Falcon1Falcon1 Elite Ranger
    And I wonder who bombed Earth? And why did the Rangers not come back to Earth to help rebuild? Perhaps the conflict was much wider than Earth, or maybe Earth turned into the Centuari, i.e. got pulled into bad politics, got attacked and then isolated itself from the Alliance, though I doubt it would have survived that long.

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    'The future is all around us' G'kar
    'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen

    Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://www.nialb5.com"]B5 site[/url].
  • BigglesBiggles <font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
    Earth was bombed back to the middle ages. It was bombed by other humans. The Rangers kept watch over it to make sure that other people didn't bother the humans living there (who no longer had knowledge of high technology) and to guide the humans living there towards what they used to be. They worked through agents on Earth (re: the monk that we see much of in [i]Deconstruction of Falling Stars[/i]). So in a sense, the Rangers did help rebuild.
    Also, the conflict wasn't much wider than Earth. It was an internal human thing between two factions with differing views.

    ------------------
    [b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
    Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
    The Balance provides. The Balance protects.

    "Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
  • Watch "Deconstruction of Falling Stars". Earth Alliance tried using holographic images of Sheridan, Delenn, Franklin and Garibaldi to make the Interstellar Alliance look evil and give EA a reason to drop out of IA so they can indulge in conquests of other worlds. The Garibaldi hologram tricked the EA representative by revealing EA's plans to the enemy, which brought about the bombing of Earth.
  • Falcon1Falcon1 Elite Ranger
    Claudia.. I didn't think that conflict was linked to Earth getting attacked. As far as I remember, it was an alien attack that stopped Earth from starting things, after Garibaldi tricked the interogator.

    Thanks for that Biggles. Didn't realise it was an internal conflict.

    ------------------
    'The future is all around us' G'kar
    'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen

    Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://www.nialb5.com"]B5 site[/url].
  • StrikerStriker Provided with distinction
    If I remember correctly, it wasn't the EA who entirely wanted out. The Earth colonies, including several countries on Earth, were against EarthGov for what they were trying to do against the EA.

    That scientist mentioned how the fleet would be leaving in a few hours to attack the colonies and their population centers as well as enemy countries.

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    Chase
    Web Hosting Provider for FirstOnes.com
    http://www.radiusco.com/
  • BigglesBiggles <font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
    It was people back on Earth, who wanted out of the IA so they could go a-conquering. The colonies were against this, they are the "enemy" that Garibaldi revealed the scientist's plans to. They are the ones who bombed Earth.

    ------------------
    [b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
    Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
    The Balance provides. The Balance protects.

    "Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
  • MessiahMessiah Failed Experiment
    Ya, and I guess, since they wanted out, the ISA gave them a few (hundred) years living in middleageish conditions to think about it..

    ------------------
    [b][i][url="http://www.dd.chalmers.se/~gu00mama/"]http://www.dd.chalmers.se/~gu00mama/[/url]
    Vir - Are you saying you don't trust me anymore? I made your favourite, Spoo.
    Londo - I'll order in.

    How can we possibly use sex to get what we want? Sex [/i]IS[i] what we want! - Frasier Crane[/i][/b]
  • JackNJackN <font color=#99FF99>Lightwave Alien</font>
    Well, after being bombed back into the Copper age, it's hard to think about anything that you can't remember anyways. At best, we hand down our stories, which get embelished, which become Myths and legends. Pretty soon, technology is replaced by the poor substitute of magic, and lifeless incantation. Somewhere down the ages it occurs to the long removed children how to bring back the old knowledge into reality again, and we start the whole cycle over.

    Isn't it just like life to be ironic enough to have Earth's Children (The Colonies) eat their parents (Earth).

    [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]

    The things we pass on to our children and their children...

    :/
  • Was there any sign that G'Kar harbored any regrets over his actions made against the Centauri back in Season 1?
  • BigglesBiggles <font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
    Well he became pretty religious compared with being a warrior in season 1.

    ------------------
    [b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
    Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
    The Balance provides. The Balance protects.

    "Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
  • BekennBekenn Sinclair's Duck
    Actually, yes, there is a sign, particularly in the fifth season. Recall a scene wherein G'Kar is teaching several Narns. One of them points out a passage written by G'Kar that is particularly spiteful of the Centauri. G'Kar "corrects" him by fwapping him with the book! Hee hee....

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    We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!
  • Falcon1Falcon1 Elite Ranger
    I preferred G'Kar after he had his revelation. He suddenly realised what was at stake. And his words, truely wise.

    ------------------
    'The future is all around us' G'kar
    'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen

    Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://www.nialb5.com"]B5 site[/url].
  • WaylanderWaylander Earthforce Officer
    Since B5 began, I've always thought the Narn and the Centauri were amazingly interesting archetypes: the Arabs and the Israelis, the Northern Irish and the British, the Hutu and Tutsi, the Serbs and the Macedonians; oppressors and oppressed, bound together by the spiraling cycle of hatred and violence, their powerbrokers convinced that total annihilation is preferable to compromise. Recent events make it more important than ever to remember that violence is not the answer, and "that there can always be new beginnings... even for people like us."



    "We have had, continue to have, and will always have wars, and grief, and struggle...we will climb up and fall down...but each time we climb a little higher, and in the end, we *do* build the world that our ancestors would have wanted for us...we *do* leave the cradle at last, and we take our place among the stars teaching those who follow us." -jms

    There will always be short-term setbacks, but as long as we climb back a few inches higher than we were before we fell down, we keep moving toward the goal of becoming a better people, and getting off the planet. Taking our place among the stars. While it's vaguely possible that I may *see* a Mars colony sometime within my lifetime, I know that I will never live there...but that ain't the point, it isn't a victory if *I* do it, and a failure if *I* don't, it's if *we* do it or not. Maybe we'll do it today, maybe we'll do it tomorrow, the point is to decide to DO it, and then by god DO IT. -jms

    [i]What about the other races?[/i]
    "The Minbari eventually make it; the Narn and Centauri do not. They don't die out, they just don't hit a state of First One-ishness, which is darn close to immortality (barring violence)." -jms




    "I will confess that I look forward to the day when we have cleansed the Universe of the Centauri and carved their bones into little flutes for Narn children. It is a dream I have."

    "They are alone. They are a dying people. We should let them pass."
    "Who? The Narn or the Centauri?"
    "Yes."

    "...for G'Kar and his people; they will do all that they can to destroy us, until the Universe itself decays and collapses. If the Narns all stood together in one place and hated, all at the same time, that hatred could fly across dozens of light-years and reduce Centauri Prime to a ball of ash. That's how much they hate us."
    "You don't have to respond in kind."
    "Of course we do. There's a natural law. Physics tells us that for every action there must be an equal and opposite reaction. They hate us, we hate them, they hate us back. And so, here we are: victims of mathematics."

    "In order to be free you had to learn to fight. No one questions that. But you've overcompensated. You are like abused children who have grown big enough to do the same thing to someone else as if it would somehow balance the scales. It won't. If you let the anger cloud your judgement, it will destroy you."

    "We are a dying people, G'Kar. So are the Centauri. Obsessed with each other's death until death is all we can see, and death is all we deserve."

    "What is there left for Narn if all of creation falls around us? There's [i]nothing[/i]. No hope, no dream, no future, no life. Unless we turn from the cycle of death toward something greater. If we [i]are[/i] a dying people, then let us die with honor, by helping the others as no one else can."
    "I don't understand."
    "Because you have let them distract you. Blind you with hate. You cannot see the battle for what it is. We are fighting to save one another, we must realize we are not alone. We rise and fall together. And some of us must be sacrificed if all are to be saved. Because, if we fail in this, then none of us will be saved. And the Narn will be only a memory."




    "Not propaganda; goodfacts, as opposed to realfacts. Facts the government has endorsed."

    "Earth needs room to expand. The Rangers and the Alliance prove a hindrance to our plans to expand."

    It was mainly Earth that bore the burden of the great Burn, and yes, that was the one Garibaldi got into.... -jms

    [i]Wouldn't the colonies offer Earth some help?[/i]
    Some probably would offer to help...but if technology is now suspect, some might not want that help...other colonies might be of the "screw 'em, they got what they deserved" perspective...often politics gets in the way of charity. -jms


    [This message has been edited by Waylander (edited 11-22-2001).]
  • MessiahMessiah Failed Experiment
    I am saddened by the fact that the Narn wont become firstoneish. G'kar did a pretty good job at the end of the series, a pity they couldn't cling to his hopes for a long enough time to stop the cycle.

    And yet, one wonders. The Narn and Centauri did not die out. They simply did not achieve a state of firstoneishness. Hmmm, is that from a human point of view? Where does JMS's storyline stop? When the Humans and Minbari travel beyond the rim? Are the Narn and Centauri still there at that point?

    What about their technology at that point? Do they still use the same old technology as in Babylon5s age?

    Agh, so many questions, and noone to answer them...

    ------------------
    [b][i][url="http://www.dd.chalmers.se/~gu00mama/"]http://www.dd.chalmers.se/~gu00mama/[/url]
    Vir - Are you saying you don't trust me anymore? I made your favourite, Spoo.
    Londo - I'll order in.

    How can we possibly use sex to get what we want? Sex [/i]IS[i] what we want! - Frasier Crane[/i][/b]
  • this is the way of b5,...an open way...

    b5 tell us as zatras said "one big story"...remember his words when he went to b4 and went to the past with sinclair to became aided (ayudante) of valen himself.

    and well g´kar reaches the status but one guy is not one race, remember g´quan reached that 1000 years ago b5 and no narn realize that.

    remember the narns after the dead of cartagia ""revenge revenge!!!"".

    a people who didnt learn from the past is condemned to repeat it.

    _______
    the great flood is present in most of the cultures of earth not only in jew-cristian culture.
  • Was it Sinclair who made that "abused children" speech to G'Kar in "Chrysalis"?
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