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The Case of the "Vanishing Nova"
Whilst skimming though my copy of In the Beginning on my DVD ROM attempting to make screenshots despite the poor picture quality, I came to the infamous "attack of the Black Star".
When watching through it in slow motion, I noticed that one of the ships in Captain Sterns' battlegroup, a Nova class Dreadnought, seemingly vanishes just as the Drala-Fi's jump point is opening.
I've made a few screenshots of this mysterious affair, the Nova is circled in red and at the top left-hand corner of the screen, and appears to disapear as soon as a Starfury crosses over our line of sight to it in picture 03. (You can see the star-field in the background where the Nova should be.)
Check out the pictures and make your own minds up. :)
Regards,
Morden
When watching through it in slow motion, I noticed that one of the ships in Captain Sterns' battlegroup, a Nova class Dreadnought, seemingly vanishes just as the Drala-Fi's jump point is opening.
I've made a few screenshots of this mysterious affair, the Nova is circled in red and at the top left-hand corner of the screen, and appears to disapear as soon as a Starfury crosses over our line of sight to it in picture 03. (You can see the star-field in the background where the Nova should be.)
Check out the pictures and make your own minds up. :)
Regards,
Morden
Comments
[B]Well shit, you're right. I just watched that scene, and it really does just vanish. :) My guess is the SFX guys forgot to add an explosion. [/B][/QUOTE]
I've got [b]SEVERAL[/b] bones to pick with the SFX guys who worked on ITB, another being the EAS Hyperion featured in the "build-up" scene of the EA fleet before the Battle of the Line. (Hold on, didn't it get it's bridge blown off during First Contact..?) :rolleyes:
Secondly, there's the Omega class Destroyers in the battle scene directly after first contact as well. (One to the extreme right, and two at the rear of the battle.) ;)
And thirdly, during the Battle of the Line, the plasma bursts from Mitchell's Starfury seem to be [i]sucked back into the pulse cannons[/i] at one point just before he's blown up, instead of being projected outwards. :confused:
Grr...
Regards,
Morden
[B]I've got [b]SEVERAL[/b] bones to pick with the SFX guys who worked on ITB, another being the EAS Hyperion featured in the "build-up" scene of the EA fleet before the Battle of the Line. (Hold on, didn't it get it's bridge blown off during First Contact..?) :rolleyes:
Secondly, there's the Omega class Destroyers in the battle scene directly after first contact as well. (One to the extreme right, and two at the rear of the battle.) ;)
And thirdly, during the Battle of the Line, the plasma bursts from Mitchell's Starfury seem to be [i]sucked back into the pulse cannons[/i] at one point just before he's blown up, instead of being projected outwards. :confused:
Grr...
Regards,
Morden [/B][/QUOTE]
I dont think it was the hyperion during first contact, it was another ship of that class, I forgot the name of it,
also the battle of the line was over 2 years after first contact, plenty of time to fix any damage that woul dhave been caused.
Those were not omega destroyers, they were nova-x's test beds for the omega
or so I have read
ya they did do quite a few goofs tho, but look at what they were looking at, the ships wer are using in our mod actually use better textures then they had at the start lol, some of their texture were really poor.
Lighting, and awsome scean setup is what made stuff look so great, in addition to being on older tvs back then, everything blurred nicly.
[B]I dont think it was the hyperion during first contact, it was another ship of that class, I forgot the name of it,
also the battle of the line was over 2 years after first contact, plenty of time to fix any damage that woul dhave been caused.
Those were not omega destroyers, they were nova-x's test beds for the omega
or so I have read[/B][/QUOTE]
DamoclesX, I'm positive I can make a screenshot that proves the EAS Hyperion was the other Hyperion class Heavy Cruiser in Captain Jankowski's flotilla that made contact with the Minbari.
In addition, with it's bridge blown up, the Hyperion would have probably been left dead in space, and was not seen escaping with the Prometheus and the Swartzkopf. I'm confident that after the death of Dukhat, the Minbari would have totally annihilated the Hyperion even if it was only disabled at first.
You must also remember that first contact took place far outside Earth space on the way to Z'Ha'Dum, and was probably closer to Minbari space. If the EAS Hyperion was left dead in space after first contact, I doubt Earth Gov would have risked going back to the "scene of the crime" to recover it.
As for the "Nova-X" test bed, it's an argument featured in the [b]Babylon 5 Technical Manual[/b], a fantastic website which is let down by [i]making this ship up[/i]. The webmaster himself admits to being suprised to see Omega class Destroyers featured in ITB, as they were only made AFTER the Minbari war. In reality, I think the CGI boys got lazy or didn't check up on their facts.
As a result of seeing the Omegas in ITB, the guys at the B5 Tech Manual [b]made up[/b] the "Nova-X" to try and explain why Omega-like ships were seen fighting in the war. (Again, personally, I think this is highly irresponsible, as two lies [b]don't[/b] make a truth.)
Before these ships were spotted in ITB, the entirity of the B5 community, and those researching the Minbari war for canon material were adament that all EA ships during the Minbari war were simple zero-g affairs, being the Nova, Hyperion, and Olympus. I don't feel that something as significant level of EA military technology during the Minbari war [i]has[/i] to be changed just because the CGI crew on In the Beginning made a mistake.
Sorry for the rant mate, but I feel quite strongly about this.
Regards,
Morden
Regards,
Morden
[B]DamoclesX, I'm positive I can make a screenshot that proves the EAS Hyperion was the other Hyperion class Heavy Cruiser in Captain Jankowski's flotilla that made contact with the Minbari.
In addition, with it's bridge blown up,[/quote][/b]
How do you know that was the bridge? For one thing, it would be hideously cramped if it were, and for another thing, that [url=http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/075.html#NO]was the Hyperion[/url], so either that big dinnerplate isn't the bridge, or, if it is, the Hyperion-class has a redundant bridge that isn't as likely to be blown off by a misfire of their own weapons. Because, at the Line or not, we know the Hyperion was alive and well in 2258.
No, the real problem with the Hyperion is that there are two of them in shot of the Battle of the Line you mentioned. Different hull numbers, same name.
Is that the bridge tho? I admit it fits with "startrek" designs, but I dunno, earthforce tech always seems to focus on whats practical, and honestly, lighting your bridge up and putting it outside the ship seems insane!
I wonder if we can find out about that.
So they made the nova -x up? Now I feel pissed, not only cause of that, but because I included it in the mod LOL. Time to axe that ship.
Is there any papers or stuff written by people researching the war? I would be VERY interested in getting my hands on that, thats the one reason so far we have avoided the minbari war era, there is little to no info on what really happened. And I dont buy this "we only have one victory" lol, you dont fight for over two years and never win a battle, heck even IRAQ managed to slow down/halt the us a few times in the recent war, and they are way more pathetic then the ea was at the outset.
Ive always thought that was done for dramatic effect, to make sheriden seem that more badass.
the beam seems to hit that yellow thing and cause an explosion
but it passes right thought that bolt cannon thingy after it LOL
at least thats how it looks to me
[B][/b]How do you know that was the bridge? For one thing, it would be hideously cramped if it were, and for another thing, that [url=http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/075.html#NO]was the Hyperion[/url], so either that big dinnerplate isn't the bridge, or, if it is, the Hyperion-class has a redundant bridge that isn't as likely to be blown off by a misfire of their own weapons. Because, at the Line or not, we know the Hyperion was alive and well in 2258.[/B][/QUOTE]
According to the Babylon Project "Earthforce Sourcebook" the disc-like structure on top of the conning tower [b]IS[/b] the main bridge. This is illustrated both on a diagram of the ship (I can scan it if you'd like) and in writing.
The bridge is meant to be in that position to have a commanding view of the battle, giving the commander a strategic edge.
However, there is also a secondary or "redundant" bridge on the Hyperion class situated just behind the forward pulse batteries and is better shielded.
As for the Hyperion being featured in Series 1, you can explain that by perhaps the ship being renamed Hyperion for some reason. (As with the Enterprise in Star Trek.) Another theory might be that Earthforce simply ran out of names.
Otherwise, I think it's a simple case of the B5 CGI modellers not bothering to plaster different names on many of the Hyperion class cruisers in not only ITB but the actual series itself.
DamoclesX, yes, it was made up, and I feel exactly the same way as you do about it. Good to see a sympathiser on the subject. :)
As for the Minbari War, I too would really like to see some material on it, but I think it's mostly hearsay, specualtion or included in some of the novels. IMO, In the Beginning didn't go far enough to give us a full picture of the war, and I too don't buy the "only one victory" line in the form of the Black Star.
Using history as an example, the battle of Mons in 1914 was a holding action mounted by troops of the BEF (British Expeditionary Force) to hinder the German advance from Belgium into France. In tactical terms, it was successful andan increadible achievement, the BEF being vastly outnumbered. Because it ended in retreat, it can't really be seen as a victory, but it allowed the Allies to regroup for a counter-attack.
Much of the same [b]must[/b] have gone on during the minbari war, which was just one big holding action. Just because the destruction of the Drala-Fi was Earth's only "real" victory doesn't mean that other battles don't deserve attention or conceptualization. I'd really like to do something about this. If it means writing a fanfic myself, by God I'll do it! ;)
Regards,
Morden
Here's a scan of the Hyperion scematic from the Babylon Project Earthforce Sourcebook, which clearly labels the saucer like structure on the top of the ship as the "Main Bridge". (It also features the Secondary Bridge I mentioned.)
The picture also cast doubt on the argument that the saucer is a radar or scanning device; the diagram showing that all of the Hyperion's sensor and scanner pylons are at the [b]front[/b] of the ship.
Regards,
Morden
we have a few custom ships, the lexington, and the superbolt but they are clearly stated as CUSTOM designs lol, and I dont think we will use them in any of the "campaign" missions just because there is no reason, but if you work on a mod enough eventually you want to design your own ships
but we dont pretend they are "canon" or anything like that lol
that hyperion shot is interesting
do you have any more of it? or of other ships?
[B]That Hyperion layout seems a tad insane to me. For one, look at the set of the bridge in ITB. There isn't a window to be seen. So much for the commanding view of the battle. Secondly, noone in their right mind would put the bridge in such an exposed position. [/B][/QUOTE]
I don't think the bright yellow strip surrounding the bridge is a window. The diagram of the Hyperion I posted doesn't show it too well, but I get the idea that the yellow strip might be blast sheilds like the ones Babylon5 used for C+C in Severed Dreams. The diagram might portray the bridge with its blast shields [b]up[/b] hence why we can't see any yellow. This would also explain why you couldn't see outside from the bridge of the Prometheus, from the CGI shots, the yellow strip was there indicating is sheilds were down.
Alternatively, the yellow strip might be something else, maybe just a light-strip. This wouldn't be unnusual for EA vessels that have exterior lights to highlight parts of the hull such as ID numbers and names, on the end of scanner pylons.
What's more, just because the bridge is round, doesn't mean it can't be the design featured in ITB. The exterior may be round, but the interior may be squarish and smaller. This would be a structurally sound design, as the exterior's round design would be better at defecting solid objects such as asteriods.
Biggles, Messiah's right, the Bridges of sci-fi starships have almost ALWAYS been positioned so that they are visible and high-up. Be it the Carrier in Space Above and Beyond, Star Destroyers, or the Constitution class in Star Trek, it's a popular design trend.
Also, I think what the writers of the Earthforce Sourcebook meant as a "commanding position" would have been ease of communication with and monitoring of other ships. Surely a bridge in an open, high-up position like that on the hyperion would have a better ability in the respect than one buried deep inside the hull?
BTW: DamoclesX, that's the only good diagram in the book, apart from one showing "The evolution of the Starfury", the only two others are simple colour-coded silluettes of the Nova and Omega class.
Regards,
Morden
If you think about it, I'd imagine the bridge on a space fairing vessel to be more like the commander center of a submarine, rather than a carrier. With the distances involved and the emptiness of space, visual ability is almost not necessary.
Similar to a sub, probing and scanning technologies such as radar are really what will guide you in close range. At long distances one may use a visual arrangement of the stars for locations, but a window will not help, a detailed star chart and visual system the can recognize patterns will (once again similar to a sub).
Windows on a space vessal become more of a liability than an asset, as its one more joint to fail, a place where additional radiation shielding is needed and for debris to damage.
That said, tactically, it would then make more sense to have the bridge close to the center of the ship since it would make it much harder to damage.
Jake
[B]I don't think the bright yellow strip surrounding the bridge is a window. The diagram of the Hyperion I posted doesn't show it too well, but I get the idea that the yellow strip might be blast sheilds like the ones Babylon5 used for C+C in Severed Dreams.[/b][/quote]
I never said it was. I was pointing out that the interior of the bridge doesn't have any windows at all, nor does it have room for windows. It's a box with every wall covered with screens except the rear wall and the floor. There are no blast doors either. Thus, putting the bridge where it would have a commanding view (as stated earlier) is rather pointless since the commander could look at screens from anywhere in the ship.
[quote][b]The diagram might portray the bridge with its blast shields [b]up[/b] hence why we can't see any yellow. This would also explain why you couldn't see outside from the bridge of the Prometheus, from the CGI shots, the yellow strip was there indicating is sheilds were down.
Alternatively, the yellow strip might be something else, maybe just a light-strip. This wouldn't be unnusual for EA vessels that have exterior lights to highlight parts of the hull such as ID numbers and names, on the end of scanner pylons.
What's more, just because the bridge is round, doesn't mean it can't be the design featured in ITB. The exterior may be round, but the interior may be squarish and smaller. This would be a structurally sound design, as the exterior's round design would be better at defecting solid objects such as asteriods. [/b][/quote]
That would make it hard for the windows to fit. Not that it matters, it's not really an important point.
[quote][b]Biggles, Messiah's right, the Bridges of sci-fi starships have almost ALWAYS been positioned so that they are visible and high-up. Be it the Carrier in Space Above and Beyond, Star Destroyers, or the Constitution class in Star Trek, it's a popular design trend. [/b][/quote]
Since when has B5 followed scifi convention? jms does what he needs to to have realistic drama, the people who designed the ships did what they needed to to have realism in their ships. Just look at the Starfury.
[quote][b]Also, I think what the writers of the Earthforce Sourcebook meant as a "commanding position" would have been ease of communication with and monitoring of other ships. Surely a bridge in an open, high-up position like that on the hyperion would have a better ability in the respect than one buried deep inside the hull?[/b][/quote]
They're called "wires". Quite a nifty invention, really. :p You could argue that the wires might get broken by enemy fire or something, but chances are they'd have multiple routes from the bridge to communications/sensors, and besides, is having the connection to communications severed really so bad as having your entire bridge taken out cause it's hanging onto the top of your ship nicely exposed to enemy fire?
[B]Since when has B5 followed scifi convention? jms does what he needs to to have realistic drama, the people who designed the ships did what they needed to to have realism in their ships. Just look at the Starfury. [/B][/QUOTE]
Look at C&C.
[B]I never said it was. I was pointing out that the interior of the bridge doesn't have any windows at all, nor does it have room for windows. It's a box with every wall covered with screens except the rear wall and the floor. There are no blast doors either. Thus, putting the bridge where it would have a commanding view (as stated earlier) is rather pointless since the commander could look at screens from anywhere in the ship.[/b][/QUOTE]
But you don't actually see the [i]front wall[/i] of the bridge, (Ie. the open end where the cameras would have been positioned) the window might have been there, we just couldn't see it.
[b]Since when has B5 followed scifi convention? jms does what he needs to to have realistic drama, the people who designed the ships did what they needed to to have realism in their ships. Just look at the Starfury.[/b]
Woah there, I'm not doubting jms, Babylon 5 or criticising the show's realism! :eek:
However, there HAVE been inconsistancies in the way the structures of ships have been designed and modelled in Babylon 5. For example, the sheer size of Kosh's transport physically would not allow it to fit inside the Babylon 5 docking bays, but it did somehow. The layout of the Prometheus's bridge in ITB compared with the shape of the bridge on the ship itself may just be another example of an inconsistancy.
[b]They're called "wires". Quite a nifty invention, really. :p[/b]
Cheeky bugger. :D
[b]You could argue that the wires might get broken by enemy fire or something, but chances are they'd have multiple routes from the bridge to communications/sensors, and besides, is having the connection to communications severed really so bad as having your entire bridge taken out cause it's hanging onto the top of your ship nicely exposed to enemy fire? [/B]
There are a number of antenna on top of the circular bridge section, as well as a radar-like dish on it's front, so the communication relays may have been directly part of the bridge's infrastructure itself. Otherwise, you have a perfectly valid point.
Bekenn, that's an excellent point, one that I've only just considered myself. Maybe the primary bridge in the disc-section is only used when the ship is not in combat?
Regards,
Morden
[B]Look at C&C. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's a bit different. B5 is a ultimately a civilian installation that wasn't designed to be sent into battle.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Morden279 [/i]
[B]But you don't actually see the [i]front wall[/i] of the bridge, (Ie. the open end where the cameras would have been positioned) the window might have been there, we just couldn't see it. [/b][/quote]
Actually, we did. It has some TV monitors on it, as I recall. The rear wall was the bridge exit. The floor and ceiling perform the usual functions. Along the other two walls are stations for bridge crew.
[quote][b]There are a number of antenna on top of the circular bridge section, as well as a radar-like dish on it's front, so the communication relays may have been directly part of the bridge's infrastructure itself. Otherwise, you have a perfectly valid point. [/b][/quote]
It's still a valid point.
[quote][b]Bekenn, that's an excellent point, one that I've only just considered myself. Maybe the primary bridge in the disc-section is only used when the ship is not in combat?[/b][/quote]
I don't entirely disagree with that idea. It doesn't make sense to me to have to move bridges if someone suddenly starts shooting at you. :)
[B]Actually, we did. It has some TV monitors on it, as I recall. The rear wall was the bridge exit. The floor and ceiling perform the usual functions. Along the other two walls are stations for bridge crew.[/B][/QUOTE]
You might be right, I'll check.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Biggles [/i]
[B]I don't entirely disagree with that idea. It doesn't make sense to me to have to move bridges if someone suddenly starts shooting at you. :) [/B][/QUOTE]
Maybe the command crew move to the secondary bridge in preparation for combat if the risk of being engaged is high enough? This would explain both the sets of the bridge on the Prometheus and the Lexington being in the same design.
Regards,
Morden
And now, I present you with...the Amazing Shapeshifting Space Station!
[url=http://home.firstones.com/sanfam/itb/PDVD_053.JPG]Scene 1a[/url]
[url=http://home.firstones.com/sanfam/itb/PDVD_056.JPG]Scene 1b[/url]
[url=http://home.firstones.com/sanfam/itb/PDVD_063.JPG]Scene 2[/url]
[B]it's just another inconsistency in ITB :D[/B][/QUOTE]
From what I've seen, I think general conceptual inconsistancy, both in design and modelling can be blamed for all of these issues. Babylon 5 has them like any other sci-fi show, despite jms striving for realism, it's nothing new.
Falcon1, I'm sure the Hyperion's scanners and radar are located at the [b]front[/b] of the ship, that's where all the antennae and plylons appear to be. (In exactly the same position as on the Omega.)
Regards,
Morden
[B]
Falcon1, I'm sure the Hyperion's scanners and radar are located at the [b]front[/b] of the ship, that's where all the antennae and plylons appear to be. (In exactly the same position as on the Omega.)
Regards,
Morden [/B][/QUOTE]
Morden279... yep there's all that stuff right at the front of the Hyperion. But I think that saucer on the central tower is some kind of other sensor or maybe a communications device. I have a feeling its the main communications dish.
Btw I just watched the scene with the Nova... I spotted it straight away, it just vanished! Funny how you never see these things until someone points it out. Only then is it obvious.